This is a edited version of a letter I have sent to the Admin. at Renderosity. I have removed the username I refer to in this email until the Admin. staff has a chance to look into this matter. I am posting this in the hope other artists may have noticed similar things like this happening or to watch for it happening in the future.

Hello,

My username on Renderosity is ccbig

I am writing because I am a bit concerned that somehow the ratings area in the galleries has been "hacked" or something.

I am aware of a person who makes comments on my positive comments on my images but rates them low on the 1-5 scale.

While this is somewhat disconcerting each of us has our own opinion. But this is what first brought this person to my attention.

In any case, I have been monitoring this person's gallery. The person I am referring to goes by the username edit

When I fist saw edit image titled edit this morning on Feb. 06, 2008 there were 4 comments. this image had a rating of 4.00 stars.

Looking again at this image this evening the image has 6 comments and the star rating is 5.00 stars.

I posted a image today in which I am confident edit gave a much lower then 5 star rating. I have watched my image rating all day as it continued to climb but it has never reached back to a 5.00 stars. How could his image have reached back to a 5.00 from a 4.00 with only 2 more positive comments/ratings?

I have also noticed at one point when I tried to score this person's image at a score below a 5 it had no effect on his image score average. That image never dropped below a 5.00 star rating despite my giving it a much lower score. It is my belief that something is going on here. How can we have faith in a scoring system if it is not secure?

Will someone please look into this matter? Can someone notify me that you will look into this?

Yes, it is against the site rules to give positive comments with low ratings.

There is a thread about this type of behaviour already.  You can see that others are concerned about this too!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2729572

You did the right thing in notifying the Moderators about it. However, they will probably tell you that there was no need to post the complaint that you sent to them,  in the forums and I suspect that they will probably lock this thread.

 This is much different then a low rating thing. This is about the possible alteration of scoring!!!

I think this person has figured out how to alter their star rating despite having a low score and change it to a higher star rating.

Arrrgh mate... happens all the time to me... there are even peopel keeping spreadsheets of favs, comments, who favs, who comments.. and cycles the days to maintain a higher than would be expected rating for their images... it's called the hug club... and unless enter into the club and are accepted by them... that is fav and comment back... then your images will always be crap in their eyes. Small people with large egos and no artistic talent whatsoever... a bit like me really... but I rely on hopefully, some crativity in my images, not much I know.. but I try. We really don't need a rating system at all for artwork... the best rating system, is when someone buys your artwork, I really like that system.

Quote - Arrrgh mate... happens all the time to me... there are even peopel keeping spreadsheets of favs, comments, who favs, who comments.. and cycles the days to maintain a higher than would be expected rating for their images... it's called the hug club... and unless enter into the club and are accepted by them... that is fav and comment back... then your images will always be crap in their eyes. Small people with large egos and no artistic talent whatsoever... a bit like me really... but I rely on hopefully, some crativity in my images, not much I know.. but I try. We really don't need a rating system at all for artwork... the best rating system, is when someone buys your artwork, I really like that system.

Yes, but again I'm not talking about the pat on the back stuff.

I am talking about the alteration of scores by hacking the system. I think that is what is being done here.

Hey maybe some of the moderators are in bed with some of those artists and putting their hand in the till... or not!

Save yourself alot of grief and turn off the rating box, personally i find it stupid like the "Vote" button that used to be here.

But then no one would rate my images.. and I'd never have any huggie friends...lol

Quote - Save yourself alot of grief and turn off the rating box, personally i find it stupid like the "Vote" button that used to be here.

I can live with the lower ratings. Heck I'm a newbie artist anyway! 

BUT... what about site security? If this part can be hacked who knows what else is vulnerable!

Credit card and purchases information.... right... stopping all purchases until this is sorted

Hi Guyz,

I believe the 4 - 5 stars may be quite innocent. I have seen this before when I used ratings:

1. Sometimes when an image has 4 comments its rating can be 4.00 or 4.5 Stars. Then along comes a 5th comment and suddenly the image has a 5. Its a bug. It only happens on the 4th comment however. If you have seen this users image change at any other comment number then discount this option.

2. Maybe one commenter realised they had made a mistake and deleted their comment and resubmitted with a 5 rating. However, this doesn't happen very often.

I personally think the rating system should be changed to a simple commended. At the moment one rating which is not a 5 and your 5 average is gone forever. A commendation system would essentially remove the average score system, and the image is measured by the number of commendations. There has been massive abuse of the ratings system. No one ever admits to giving low ratings and it has caused massive upset on this community regularly. I was a victim of this deliberate abuse. I no longer use the ratings system.

There are certain individuals on this site who regularly abuse the ratings system. I have proof who they are and have complained to them and the admins about their behaviour. They no longer comment on my work at my request (sic. demand LOL!). However there are some artists who genuinely do not understand the consequences of leaving a low rating.

 I have seen it change well after the 4 or 5th comments.

In a childish move on my part I attempted to leave a poor rating after this person would not respond. I was the 8th person to rate that image and my low rating had zero effect on this persons score.

After that I quit commenting altogether on this person and started watching even more closely.

As a interesting side note the title of that image if taken in context of what I think is happening could have been both a dare or a threat.

well, that's weird, anyway.  I recall at another gallery using php software, some guy
would go in there and dump hundreds of low ratings per day at random.  somebody
should tell nic and the others to patch that.  in addition, disallow all html, javascript,
xml or java elements in gallery comment fields.

Quote - well, that's weird, anyway.  I recall at another gallery using php software, some guy
would go in there and dump hundreds of low ratings per day at random.  somebody
should tell nic and the others to patch that.  in addition, disallow all html, javascript,
xml or java elements in gallery comment fields.

Those are excellent security ideas that should be done!

Quote - Credit card and purchases information.... right... stopping all purchases until this is sorted

You are very right! That is also one of my biggest concerns!

The idea of site security and manipulation is a concern, but personally I don't even look at the rating thing for any images, including my own.
Not even sure what the purpose is or what it means for an artist.
I see lots of images in the "Top rated" section that IMO lack any skill or originality.
I'm not trying to make light of how seriously some people take the approval of others, but as most great artists died poor and unrecognised, perhaps a low rating (true or manipulated) should be seen as something desirable.

IF there is a security concern, I too would like to know it has been addressed.  Be interested to see what is the result. 

As to ratings and number of comments, I hate to say this but I have never understood it. 

Quote - We really don't need a rating system at all for artwork... the best rating system, is when someone buys your artwork, I really like that system.

I agree here.

Now my point, although I fancy myself an Artist, in real life I am a Web Script writer, ie PHP,  all though I now exclusively use Coldfusion becuase of security issues with PHP.   Its not tha PHP is insecure its that since its open source code tends to be sloppy and written by non-professionals.  Not to say that is the case here.  What happens is since PHP is free poeple start websites using PHP becuase of low initial cost, suddenly they have a hit website and the real world come crashing down on them.   Tthey probably used some free bulletin board or free code somewhere without checking it for back doors etc., and now the stuck with it until they do a major rewrite which costs them more that they want to spend.  So, they look the other way when things happen.

So the problem could be that this person found out how to exploit this, on the other hand it may be the person who programmed the rating system rounded everything up after  the .5 so if you get a 4.6 it automatically rounds. up.

As far as the HUG CLUB, (I really like that name by the way RGUS) -- thats a different issue.  Popularity is part of life and we all need a HUG now and then.   RGUS is right, if its good people will buy it.

Best Regards.

Roger

If there is a security issue then i agree, they should do something about it.
If it's just the flawed software then they should do away with the silly little doodads.
Heck, the "Art Charts" are flawed, "My old digital girlfriend" is my most popular image to date and always will be because that is the image they show people when i make it into the charts and i think it's based on views and not the number of comments an image gets, not that i care, personally i would like the option to opt-out of any "Hug Club" features.
Sorry kinda got off subject.

Stevey3d wrote:
"I personally think the rating system should be changed to a simple commended. At the moment one rating which is not a 5 and your 5 average is gone forever. A commendation system would essentially remove the average score system, and the image is measured by the number of commendations."

I love this idea, it seems workable, easy and well suited to Renderosity's community culture.

As for the lack of security, I would sure hope that the gallery servers are separated from the Marketplace servers in terms of access, but it would seem that a little investigation would be prudent on the part of the Renderosity IT team.

Quote - Arrrgh mate... happens all the time to me... there are even peopel keeping spreadsheets of favs, comments, who favs, who comments.. and cycles the days to maintain a higher than would be expected rating for their images... it's called the hug club... and unless enter into the club and are accepted by them... that is fav and comment back... then your images will always be crap in their eyes. Small people with large egos and no artistic talent whatsoever... a bit like me really... but I rely on hopefully, some crativity in my images, not much I know.. but I try. We really don't need a rating system at all for artwork... the best rating system, is when someone buys your artwork, I really like that system.

Well said and spot on the money!

I never managed to get in the 'club' but that's okay, if people like my stuff, then great.

It is disconcerting however to see some folks get very high marks on less than stellar efforts. Oh well.

RGUS, your stuff will always be tops with me!

Well as only a dabbler in Poser, and a quite infrequent uploader to the gallery - well, my twopence worth:

I usually leave the ratings/comments options default as I usually forget to disable them.  Also, although it's nice to have comments if people don't rate - well, I'm not getting wound up - but I can see how such a discrepancy can cause concern, especially if it's against rules.

It does seem incongruous to say 'Absolutely brilliant render' or whatever, then give a rating of 1.  Puzzling.

Sheila

Just a quick response here to say

1.  The site is not being hacked or security compromised in anyway. The programmers will take a look at the coding to make sure there is not a coding bug causing any skewed ratings but no one can change ratings or alter them in anway, not even staff:)  The ratings are done based on a 'standard deviation' system so that could be the cause of some of the confusion on how the calculations work. I'll explain how it works in detail when I get all the exact calculating details from the programmers.
You can look at the FAQ on how the ratings are calculated on the TOP 100 as that might give you an idea on how it works..
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/service/index.php?questionid=255

2.. The checkout pages at Renderosity are SECURED pages and not a security risk at all .  You can see this for yourself when you are at the checkout pages. Credit card information is NOT stored at all on our site. 

Please do not let this thread start making you question the security of the site, if there is a problem at all it would be an issue in how the coding is working and the programmers will research and resolve if its done working the way it should but it is NOT a security issue.

*'But then no one would rate my images.. and I'd never have any huggie friends...lol'

roflol :)

Wow, I would really be surprised if someone went through any trouble at all to hack their ratings. That would really take the cake :)

• Rick

RGUS, gets lots of comments because all his Vickies are nekkid with nekkid boobies and bottoms, LOL! I know it works for me!! Now, if you really want to hack the ratings, you can create 100 different usernames to comment on your own work and give all of it five stars, but then you will need 100 different galleries to appear to be real, LOL! Whooosh! I'm tired just thinking about it.

Hey Drifterlee... that's not true.. .I get lots of comments.. because I show bums...LOL... you're a dag... top girl, top girl!

And they are fantastic Bums, Dean!

Okay look at this image:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1613846&page=2#comments

If there ever was an image that deserved a perfect 5, it's this one, but it's at 4.9 something, and not a negative comment there--plus i don't recognize anyone that posts on my images--is it possible to "rate and run" ie drop a comment, a rating, and delete the comment but have the rating stay? I don't care if people don't like my goofy pinups, but this isn't right.

@lwperkins: yes, this is exactly what I was talking about in the other thread. If any image is going to warrant a perfect 5 rating then the one you've provided the link to should as well.

It's not that this is anything of earth shattering importance but it's a bit annoying, If this happened to this same artist over and over again you can understand their frustration because there is no reason for this to be happening. For any given image a less than 5 rating could be due to a mistake but when it happens regularly it's a matter of someone being a twit.

To be perfectly clear - it's not that I'm complaining about someone giving a low rating - that is their perogative. It's giving a low (er) rating after giving a glowing comment that's at issue.

I just wonder how difficult it would be to program in a viewers rating along with their comment,

• Rick

Quote - i don't recognize anyone that posts on my images

lw, fab image of arnold IMVHO, but be wary when the quoted behaviour is noticed.
it almost certainly means the image is being downloaded and reposted elsewhere,
sans signature and permission, by tubers.

Actually I wasn't being clear--I have been eyeing the people who comment on my images and I'd say I know 90% of them--on the others where I'll see a new comment and a corresponding drop in rating, I just made a mental note to see if that happened again on the next image. So far I haven't seen any correspondence, and on the Conan image the members I didn't recognize were a different set than the ones that I didn't recognize commenting on my pieces...this would be easier with a Venn diagram..think two non-intersecting circles of unknowns, where an intersection would represent the person or persons leaving negative ratings and positive comments. But I am thinking there must be a way to leave a negative rating and no comment at all.
Re tubers..what pests. I hate those potatoes;-) I occasionally catch one using photobucket, but most are too smart to do that.

Quote -
To be perfectly clear - it's not that I'm complaining about someone giving a low rating - that is their perogative. It's giving a low (er) rating after giving a glowing comment that's at issue.

I just wonder how difficult it would be to program in a viewers rating along with their comment,

• Rick

**I think this would be like saying, "Put your money where your mouth is", Rick and I think it's an excellent idea.  If it's not implemented, or at least considered by the Renderosity powers that be, then I'm tempted to turn off my ratings as well.

I know who the person Cully (ccbig) is referring to, since this same guy ZAPS me, almost everytime he enters my gallery.  He did it again, very recently.  I had 4 comments with a rating of 4.750.  Mathmatically and without taking any genius level IQ to figure it, I received  2-5's and 2-4's.  This guy compliments my render and says, great work! and then my rating dropped to a 4.000.  Meaning, he gave me a TWO rating.  He never comments on my images, unless he can be in the first five commenters. Yesterday, he zapped another friend of mine with a ONE rating after being very complimentary.  I've been watching him for several weeks, too. 

I just hate liars and deceivers...deep breath  Ok...I'm going back to bed, since I've been ill for the last few days and only stay online for less than an hour to upload and to comment on a few friends galleries and I'm already worn out.

Have a Happy Valentine's Day,

Hugzz, Robin**

lwperkins........after viewing the image you pasted up....yep that-thar is a 5!

As a noob here-posting, (and an semi-retired old fart), I finally decided to post up some images and am enjoying it....but the rating system doesn't hold much weight for me. It didn't take long to see what was happening. That is why I posted up a 'pin-up', after a series of faerie scenes, just to test the waters. Wow.....what a difference in views! It was nice to get 500+ views so quickly. Just not the direction I want to go with my work (nothing against the good nekkid rendering folks, I may test those waters again).

The ratings really don't matter to me. After selling 2d designs and stained glass for 25 years the only vote that matters is my bankers - :). I've decided to join in for the camaraderie and to learn this new fangled 3d stuff. Having a ball, and not expecting to stand the world on it's head.

As I said before, if you think your gallery is being trolled, let us know and we'll investigate.  We can't do anything unless you give us the info.  Keep in mind the number of members, the number of galleries and the amount of images uploaded per day.  We can't - and would not - wade through every single comment to screen it for some nebulous standards of acceptability.  It'd be a pretty silly thing to do, even if we had the resources to do it.

Let me put it another way...

I see several posts here from people complaining about the ratings they have received, versus the comments posted.  None so far have seen fit to follow it up to a post to the Renderosity staff, as far as I know.  So, complaining is totally useless unless you help us to investigate the matter further and try to get it sorted out.

I'd be happy to complain in detail to the mods..but I have nothing solid beyond seeing the rating drop like the thermometer in January, and it's not even the same posters on visible when it happens. Apparently other people have a better idea of who is responsible, but I haven't been able to pin it down at all.

I still love the idea of "commended" for images, and collecting the number of commends..I think that would be a better way to flag outstanding images for people to find (which is really what has happened with the "Top Rated", rather than being a tool to prod people to improve).  For me personally it's easier to drop the ratings completely for now, since they aren't serving as a learning tool for me.
Limerick --I'm glad you are having fun. I really love Renderosity even with the occasional headache, and I have learned a lot here! (And spent way too much money;-)

Iwperkins, I just commented on your last image because I recognized your avatar from here, LOL! Gave you a 5, don't worry! Now you can say you know me.

Quote - The ratings are done based on a 'standard deviation' system so that could be the cause of some of the confusion on how the calculations work. I'll explain how it works in detail when I get all the exact calculating details from the programmers.

Standard deviation system actually explains a lot. It's not a straight averafe.
A simplistic explanation of it is that it throws out single lowest or single highest rating if it's significantly diofferent from the average ratings.
It's actually sort of a protection from one or two people leaving a false bad comment.

The actual math is little different then what I explained above, but the concept is about the same.

Drifterlee thank you hon! I'm pretty sure the commenters aren't the rogue raters at this point anyway--I had a rating drop between two posters and the second one favorited the image! hehe! (Maybe it's the Daz gremlin;-)

Quote - Okay look at this image:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1613846&page=2#comments

If there ever was an image that deserved a perfect 5, it's this one, but it's at 4.9 something, and not a negative comment there--plus i don't recognize anyone that posts on my images--is it possible to "rate and run" ie drop a comment, a rating, and delete the comment but have the rating stay? I don't care if people don't like my goofy pinups, but this isn't right.

What's the big deal? As of this time, the rating is 4.9839 iver 64 ratings. By my calculations, this means that 63 people gave it a 5, and one person gave it a 4. A lot of my images are rated five because five or six people liked it enough to rate it a 5, and I wouldn't even rate it a 5.

Quote - Arrrgh mate... happens all the time to me... there are even peopel keeping spreadsheets of favs, comments, who favs, who comments.. and cycles the days to maintain a higher than would be expected rating for their images... it's called the hug club... and unless enter into the club and are accepted by them... that is fav and comment back... then your images will always be crap in their eyes. Small people with large egos and no artistic talent whatsoever... a bit like me really... but I rely on hopefully, some crativity in my images, not much I know.. but I try. We really don't need a rating system at all for artwork... the best rating system, is when someone buys your artwork, I really like that system.

lol I know what you mean, there was this one guy who I think everyone knows used to release a " poser babe with large breasts and no / or little clothing every friday and dedicated it to one of the " hug club " and the work was very poor and always exactly the same thing - example - big breasted poser babe - no clothes - chains - fire / ice / water / monster / demon / rendered in bryce.......and always got excellent feedback. such as amazing, beautiful etc etc. I thought to myself...do these people actually know a good piece of art when they see it.....I think not.

Quote - thought to myself...do these people actually know a good piece of art when they see it.....I think not.

  Uggh, get over yourself DigitalShinobi. And Prog might not be your cup of tea, but he's an excellent artist.

Quote - > Quote - thought to myself...do these people actually know a good piece of art when they see it.....I think not.

  Uggh, get over yourself DigitalShinobi. And Prog might not be your cup of tea, but he's an excellent artist.

Gnolt, that's my opinion and I am entitled to it. So please don't come on this forum and flame me for expressing my opinion. Actually I was reffering to the comments people made about his images, that they were always " fantastic & amazing etc etc " no one ever said or posted " Prog, this image is a bit sh*t to be honest mate, you can do better " but like RGUS said....the hug club prevails with their secret spreadsheets and eternal ass kissing. It would be nice to see one image have truthful comments instead of seeing how far they can get their heads up each others asses. Anyhow, this is my opinion based on the observations I have made.

So, Gnolt, if you wish to flame me, go ahead. I don't know why you would as I don't know you and you don't know me. Your obviously  in the hug club as you lept to his defense without even asking me why I thought the way I do. So my response to you and other people like you, who have no logical reason and just follow the popular people because they want to be popular is this.................nothing as I can't be bothered wasting my time to talk to a mindless zombie with no opinions of his / her own.

Knock it off, all of you.  No Personal attacks, remember?

To wander back to AnArdvark's comment, I think it's not so much that there is one low rating in a large high rating set, it's just that they leave a rating that shows that they feel that there is room for improvement, without making suggestions about how to improve, or even what it was that they didn't like about the image. I had someone complain about my light a while back, and I really appreciated it, because it made me think about how I was using light and what I could do to get more depth and be more creative with it--I ended up learning a lot from that comment, and am still learning. To use the rating system without using it for helping another artist improve seems..well, maybe a little lazy at best. If someone doesn't like nudes, or thinks an artist is in a rut, they should be able to say so--most people can sort through the personal taste issues, and sometimes too many nudes can be a kind of laziness too, because it makes for easy hits (guilty;-)  It's true that Renderosity tends to be a supportive environment because people come here more to share a hobby than to be professionally crit'ed (cg talk is the place to get your ego trashed, in a tough love way), but some criticism can help even a hobbyist get more out of the hobby, if it's done in a constructive way. I think that is what the rating were intended to facilitate--that kind of conversation.

Ya know -- this gallery ratings business has been a source of endless contention since the time when there was a gallery around to rate.  And it's not going to stop being an issue.  No matter what the internal program mechanics of the ratings system happens to be -- someone won't be happy about it, for whatever set of reasons.

I'd understand the concerns better if monetary prizes were being handed out for top-rated images.  But seeing as how that doesn't happen -- it's like fussing over the ownership of twigs in the middle of a dense & very large forest.  There's plenty of twigs to go around, so it's not a problem (assuming that there is any kind of a problem, for the sake of argument) worth spending one's time bothering about.  At least it isn't to me.

Of course, I'll know for certain that the gallery ratings system is perfectly fair and balanced when my own paltry few images are top-ranked among the thousands.  THEN I'll be greatly reassured that the "PTB" are totally and completely honest and on the square in the way that they've set up the gallery ratings system.

People are forgetting that art is subjective - not everyone likes the same thing. Poor Van Gogh died broke like many artists. I have seen carpet padding hung on a wall in a museum and called art. Some folks like monsters, big boobs, fairies, whatever. People are also forgetting that for most of us this is a hobby. We are making too big a deal over ratings. I need to learn how to make money. This Poser stuff has cost me too much and is taking too much of my time, quite honestly. Can anyone make any real money - like maybe $800.00 a month (I know, that doesn't sound like much, but that's all I need for my horse and bills) doing Poser art or models??? If so, tell me.

Quote - People are forgetting that art is subjective - not everyone likes the same thing. Poor Van Gogh died broke like many artists. I have seen carpet padding hung on a wall in a museum and called art. Some folks like monsters, big boobs, fairies, whatever. People are also forgetting that for most of us this is a hobby. We are making too big a deal over ratings. I need to learn how to make money. This Poser stuff has cost me too much and is taking too much of my time, quite honestly. Can anyone make any real money - like maybe $800.00 a month (I know, that doesn't sound like much, but that's all I need for my horse and bills) doing Poser art or models??? If so, tell me.

I know of  two - possibly three - vendors (and I am sure there are more) who make their living exclusively from Poser related stuff.

Catch a falling star and put it in your pocket. Never let it fade away. A song done by Perry Como.

*'Of course, I'll know for certain that the gallery ratings system is perfectly fair and balanced when my own paltry few images are top-ranked among the thousands.'

... but of course :)

It's easy to see that this thread has unlocked a reservoir of rancor over the perceived unfairness of the rating/comment/'hug club' system and as Robert mentioned - it's not going to stop being an issue. It's been like this for as long as I can remember and I don't see an end in sight. People are social beings and naturally tend toward cliques - we even have an 'anti-clique' clique here at Rendo :)

That's just something that everyone posting images here has to find a way to live with. What doesn't have to be accepted is someone following up a glowing comment of praise with a low rating. Especially if it's the same person doing it to many different people. While it's nothing of Earth shattering significance, it doesn't do much to mitigate the discord that these threads always seem to expose.

Again I ask, why can't a viewer's ratings appear along with their comments? It does seem it would at least 'put their money where their mouth is' as Robin suggested. Maybe just a row of stars printed below the comment would do the trick.

• Rick