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Subject: Crisis of Conscience


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Fri, 14 March 2008 at 1:40 AM · edited Sun, 06 October 2024 at 6:46 AM

file_401958.jpg

“Lieutenant!……Lieutenant!  Sumpin’s strange, sir!  Ah don’ know what’s ‘a goin’ on!  Lieutenant!  Come quick, sir!” the topside watchman’s voice, sounding irritatingly high-pitched and frightened like a woman’s, echoed down below.

Lieutenant Catesby Jones, Executive Officer and currently the acting commander of the CSS Virginia, glared up at the open hatch.  Only half-reluctantly, he placed his fork and knife down next to the most unappetizing plate of embalmed beef and beans supper that he’d been laboriously eating, and climbed up the ladder topside.

The Lieutenant stepped out into the gentle ocean wind of the evening.  “Man, why the commotion?  Have you sighted the entire Yankee fleet coming upon us?  Bully if you have man, for such a fault otherwise I shall not countenance…………”

And then Lieutenant Jones stared up at the sky, open-mouthed, wide-eyed, and speechless: in a perfect bronze-statue-like imitation of his hapless watchman.  The darkening heavens above looked like they burned with an unholy fire; but that wasn’t the first matter to draw the Lieutenant’s stunned attention.

 


 

Frustrated, US Air Force Major Arthur Wesley tried his radio again.

“Langley control, Langley control – this is Phoenix.  Gateway was go, repeat, Gateway was go.  Matrix IPL point achieved.  No fault.  Langley, GPS and VXNA frost underline lost.  No contact.  Langley control – please confirm Source Gateway.  This is Phoenix.”

Still no answer.  Not even static buzzing in his ears.

Something was odd.  Perhaps the Gateway anomaly had fried his electronics.  But no: every light on the board was green.

Unable to raise a contact, or even to hear any civilian chatter, Major Wesley decided to go in closer to shore.  Again, oddly, he saw very few lights; not even south towards Norfolk.

What had happened?  Major Wesley’s gut began to knot up with an unfamiliar feeling – fear.

He tried again.  “Langley control, confirm Gateway.  Langley……….”  The surface radar beeped! at him.  Probably a small ship below.  Lacking any alternatives at the moment, Major Wesley decided to go in for a close visual.

About a minute and a half later, Major Wesley stared down at the sight below him, stunned and open-mouthed behind his mask.  His expression closely mirrored the unabashedly shocked faces of the men below him.

Credits:

CSS Virginia by the_hankster here at Rendo
Horror & Romance (atmosphere pack) for Vue by stamate_filip here at Rendo
Figure's uniforms from Poserworld
Stealth Fighter by Vanishing Point
Scene arranged in Poser 7, rendered in Vue 6 Infiinte

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



dphoadley ( ) posted Fri, 14 March 2008 at 3:09 AM

You've obviously have been reading Harry Turtledove and L. Sprague deCamp.  Nothing is as entertaining as alternative history!  Keep up the good work.
DPH

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


Acadia ( ) posted Fri, 14 March 2008 at 3:15 AM

Wonderful image! The lighting and reflection off the water is great!

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi



pakled ( ) posted Fri, 14 March 2008 at 7:43 AM

or Harry Harrison, or Stirling, or a host of others...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Fri, 14 March 2008 at 9:55 AM

Thanks for the kind words, everyone!

Yes -- alternative history is a fascinating sub-genre of scifi.  I especially like to explore the inevitable conflicts that would occur between generational attitudes.  It's one thing to read about a conflict in a history book, it would be another thing to be forced to live it.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



Rosemaryr ( ) posted Fri, 14 March 2008 at 10:57 AM

First:  love the image, and concept work.  Bravo!

(Very minor second: 
Ummmm.... being an Air Force brat, with my dad once stationed at Langley....as I recall, it was a SAC base, with primarily B52s  (????)  Note: this was a looooong time ago, about 40 years!!!    I don't recall any mention of the Stealth ever being flown from there., even in later times.   'Course things could be different today.....grin)

RosemaryR
---------------------------
"This...this is magnificent!"
"Oh, yeah. Ooooo. Aaaaah. That's how it starts.
Then, later, there's ...running. And....screaming."


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Fri, 14 March 2008 at 11:59 AM

Thank you for the kind words.

This Air Force Major is into the type of operation that they don't talk about publicly.  But of course: in any such scenario, there's a certain element of total fantasy.  😉

Then again, let the New York Times find out that stealth aircraft are flying out of Langley, and we'll all be certain to know about it the very next day -- complete with detailed flight schedules and personnel rosters.  And that part isn't a fantasy.  :lol:

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



Conniekat8 ( ) posted Fri, 14 March 2008 at 12:05 PM

I don't know much about military... but the Pic is beautifully put together.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!"  Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store  BadKittehCo Freebies and product support


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Fri, 14 March 2008 at 1:10 PM

Thank you, Connie!  :-)

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



dphoadley ( ) posted Sat, 15 March 2008 at 1:44 PM

So, is it to be a Poser Comic Strip, or a full-length book, or a novelette?  DO keep up the good work.  I especially found facinating Turtledove's 'Guns of the South.'
DPH

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


Letterworks ( ) posted Sat, 15 March 2008 at 6:05 PM

Xenophonx, Excellent piture and an interesting opeing page for a story, love the hear where it goes from there!

Unfortnately the venerable Nighthawk won;t be flying out of Langly or any other Airforce base after next month. The Government has seen fit to give them an early retirement.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/11/stealth.fighter.ap/index.html

Sorry for the OT portion of this post.

mike


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Sat, 15 March 2008 at 9:36 PM

@DP - yes, I also enjoyed Turtledove's Guns of the South.  In recent years, many scifi/historical fantasy writers have centered stories around the subject of the American Civil War -- each with their own take on it.  The writers have either adjusted straight-historical events a bit (like by having England declare war on the North -- which was a slim, but real, possibility at the time), or else by introducing time-travel elements, as in my own story idea here.  At least one scifi-fantasy series of novels transported a troop of Union soldiers off to an alien world.  Hey.......it's fantasy.  So anything can happen.  😉

Thank you again for the encouragement.  I've debated about taking the idea further -- I have the basics of the full story outline in my head.  Perhaps I'll post more to this thread, as I have time & resources.

@trav - thank you very much for that link.  I was unaware of the fact that they are about to retire the F-117 from service.  Time and technology move on.........

And thanks also go to you for the encouragement.  I enjoy storytelling -- and I tend to view 3D as an excellent way to illustrate a story.  Pictures can help to fire the imagination.

Here's a hint about what I have in mind next: the Major needs to find a place to land his aircraft.......tough thing to do in 1860's Virginia........:biggrin:

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



Letterworks ( ) posted Sat, 15 March 2008 at 9:52 PM

yeah, especially since the F-117 lands "hot". It's stall speed is very high for a modern jet which is why it deploys a drog 'shute during landing. hum, can;t think of where he's going to find a long paved run way. Now if it was an STOVL equipt F-35 Lightening II, he'd have more choices.

still the nice thing about a jet during the civil war era is that fuel would be available. They were distilling kerosene for lamp oil by then. If it were a high proformacne prop plane (WW2 fighter for example) they didn;t have the technology to distilee and refine the high octane aviation fuel they run on.

mike
 


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Sat, 15 March 2008 at 10:38 PM

You are a helpful font of information, trav.  Thanks!  As for the fuel -- that's pretty much what I had in mind.

There were open, paved spaces around at that time - but they tended to be few and far between.  And frequently filled with horses, carriages, and people.  Except perhaps at night...........and the Major won't have things easy in other ways, either...........but I don't want to give too much away in advance..........😉

One fact that a lot of people don't know -- and frequently don't want to believe when it's shared with them:  there were far fewer forests around in North America in the 1860's than  there are today.  In fact, there were fewer forests in North America in the 1760's than there are today.  There were numbers of reasons for this fact -- early farming methods required large amounts of arable, cleared land in order to grow enough crops to feed everyone; essentially uncontrolled forest fires (often deliberately set to clear land); and other reasons.  It's a subject that makes for a fascinating study in and of itself -- but  it's slightly OT to this thread.  :ohmy:

http://home.flash.net/~falline/ocrPrimeval.htm

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



linkdink ( ) posted Sun, 16 March 2008 at 3:22 AM · edited Sun, 16 March 2008 at 3:22 AM

Cool pic, and a great  opening for a story. I find myself wondering who would be freaked out more... the guys on the ship or the pilot!

Gallery


dphoadley ( ) posted Sun, 16 March 2008 at 7:21 AM

CSS Virginia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Jump to: navigation, search

CSS Virginia
CSS Virginia Career (CSA) Confederate Naval Jack 1861 – 1863 Ordered: 1861 Laid down: 1862 (overlay USS Merrimack) Launched: March 8, 1862 Commissioned: 1862 Fate: scuttled by crew, May 11, 1862 General characteristics Displacement: approx. 3200 tons Length: 275 ft (84 m) Beam: 38.6 ft (11.8 m) Draft: 22 ft (6.7 m) Speed: 9 knots (17 km/h) Complement: 320 officers and men Armament: 2×7 inch (178 mm) rifles
2×6 inch (152 mm) rifles
6×9 inch (229 mm) Dahlgren smoothbores
2×12-pounder (5 kg) howitzers Armor: Double iron plating; 2 inch (51 mm) thick CSS Virginia was an ironclad warship of the Confederate States Navy during the American Civil War (built using the remains of the scuttled USS Merrimack).

She was one of the participants in the Battle of Hampton Roads in March, 1862 opposite the USS Monitor. The battle is chiefly significant in naval history as the first battle between two ironclads.

Ironclads were only a recent innovation, started with the 1859 French La Gloire. Afterwards, the design of ships and the nature of naval warfare changed dramatically.

Contents [hide]

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[edit] USS Merrimack becomes CSS VirginiaWhen the Commonwealth of Virginia seceded from the Union in 1861, one of the important federal military bases threatened was Gosport Shipyard (now Norfolk Naval Shipyard) in Portsmouth, Virginia. Accordingly, the order was sent to destroy the base rather than allow it to fall into Confederate hands. Unfortunately for the Union, the execution of these orders was bungled. The steam frigate USS Merrimack sank before she completely burned. When the Confederates entered the yard, they raised Merrimac and decided to use the engines and hull to build an ironclad ram.

Cut away view showing the 4 inches of iron armor and 24 inches of wood backing it.

Cut away view showing the 4 inches of iron armor and 24 inches of wood backing it.

Rebuilt under the supervision of Captain French Forrest, the new ship was named Virginia. She had four inch (102 mm)-thick iron deck with sloped sides, and casement and ten guns, one 7 inch rifle on the bow and the stern each and four on each beam, 3 of which are Dahlgren cannons. Further, Virginia’s designers had heard of plans by the North to build an ironclad. Figuring her guns would be unable to harm such a ship, they equipped her with a ram— at that time an anachronism in a warship[1]. *Merrimac'*s engines, now part of Virginia, had not been in good working order, and the salty Elizabeth River water and addition of tons of iron did not improve the situation.

[edit] Battle of Hampton RoadsDrawing depicting the Battle of Hampton Roads

Drawing depicting the Battle of Hampton Roads

Main article: Battle of Hampton Roads

The Battle of Hampton Roads began on March 8, 1862 when Virginia sortied. Despite an all-out effort to complete her, the ship still had workmen on board when she sailed. Supported by Raleigh and Beaufort, and accompanied by Patrick Henry, Jamestown, and Teaser, Virginia took on the blockading fleet.

The first ship engaged, USS Cumberland, was sunk after being rammed. However, in sinking, Cumberland broke off Virginia's ram. Seeing what happened to Cumberland, the captain of USS Congress ordered his ship grounded in shallow water. Congress and Virginia traded fire for an hour, after which the badly-damaged Congress surrendered. While the surviving crewmen of Congress were being ferried off the ship, a Union battery on the north shore opened fire on Virginia. In retaliation, the captain of Virginia ordered Congress fired upon with red-hot shot, to set her ablaze.

Virginia did not emerge from the battle unscathed. Shot from Cumberland, Congress, and the shore-based Union troops had riddled her smokestack, reducing her already low speed. Two of her guns were out of order, and a number of armor plates had been loosened. Even so, her captain attacked USS Minnesota, which had run aground on a sandbank trying to escape Virginia. However, because of her deep draft, Virginia was unable to do significant damage. It being late in the day, Virginia left with the expectation of returning the next day and completing the destruction of the Union blockaders.

Later that night, USS Monitor arrived at Union-held Fort Monroe, rushed to Hampton Roads in hopes of protecting the Union force and preventing Virginia from threatening Union cities.

The next day, on March 9, 1862, the world's first battle between ironclads took place. The smaller, nimbler Monitor was able to outmaneuver Virginia, but neither ship proved able to do significant damage, despite numerous hits. Monitor was much closer to the water, and so much harder to hit by the Virginia's guns, but vulnerable to ramming and boarding. Finally, Monitor retreated, leaving Virginia in possession of the "battlefield."[citation needed] This was due to the fact that the captain of the Monitor was hit by gunpowder in his eyes while looking through the pilothouse's peepholes, which caused Monitor to haul off, but she soon returned, and the captain of Virginia, Catesby ap Roger Jones, thought it best to do the same to tend to any damages. It has been marked in history that the Virginia retreated, but the battle was a draw. The Union blockade remained.

During the next two months, Virginia made several sorties to Hampton Roads hoping to draw Monitor into battle. Monitor, however, was under orders not to engage. Neither ironclad was ever to fight again.

Finally on May 10, 1862, advancing Union troops occupied Norfolk. Virginia was unable to retreat further up the James River due to her deep draft, nor was she seaworthy enough to enter the ocean. Without a home port, Virginia was ordered blown up to keep her from being captured. This task fell to ap Roger Jones, the last man to leave CSS Virginia after all of her guns had been safely removed and carried to Drewy's Bluff to fight again. Early on the morning of May 11, 1862, off Craney Island, fire reached her magazine and she was destroyed by a great explosion.

[ Destruction of "Merrimack", by Currier and Ives](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Destruction_of_Merrimac%2C_May_11%2C_1862.png "Destruction of "Merrimack", by Currier and Ives")

Destruction of "Merrimack", by Currier and Ives

[edit] Historical names: Merrimack, Virginia, MerrimacThe name of the warship which served the Confederacy in the famous Battle of Hampton Roads has become a source of confusion, which continues to the present day.

When she was first commissioned into the United States Navy in 1856, her name was Merrimack, with the K. The name derived from the Merrimack River near where she was built. She was the second ship of the U.S. Navy to be named for the Merrimack River, which is formed by the junction of the Pemigewasset and Winnipesaukee Rivers at Franklin, New Hampshire. The Merrimack flows south across New Hampshire, and then eastward across northeastern Massachusetts before emptying in the Atlantic at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

The Confederacy bestowed the name Virginia on her when she was raised, restored, and outfitted as an ironclad warship, but the Union preferred to call the Confederate ironclad warship by either its earlier name, "Merrimack", or by the nickname, "The Monster".

Perhaps because the Union won the Civil War, the history of the United States generally records the Union version. In the aftermath of the battle, the names Virginia and Merrimack were used equally by both sides, as attested by the newspapers and correspondence of the day. Some Navy reports and pre-1900 historians misspelled the name as "Merrimac," which is actually an unrelated ship.[2] Hence "the Battle of the Monitor and the Merrimac". Both spellings are still in use in the Hampton Roads area.

[edit] Memorial, heritage- It is said the most popular exhibit at Jamestown Exposition held in 1907 at Sewell's Point was the "Battle of the Merrimac and Monitor," a diorama which was in a special building.[citation needed]

Wikisource has original text related to this article: Joint Resolution Authorizing the Secretary of the Navy to Furnish Metal for a Bell

In 1907, an armour plate from the ship was melted down and used in the casting of the Pokahuntas Bell for the Jamestown Exposition.[3]

The name of the Monitor-Merrimac Memorial Bridge-Tunnel, built in Hampton Roads in the general vicinity of the famous engagement, with both Virginia and federal funds, also reflects the more recent version.

Should periodic modern efforts to recover more of the Confederate vessel from the depths of Hampton Roads prove successful, it is unclear what name will be applied to the remains.

[edit] See also- Norfolk Naval Shipyard

[edit] Notes1. ^ deKay, James, "Monitor", p. 131, Ballantine Books, 1997

  1. ^ Battle of the Monitor and the Merrimack C.S.S. Virginia Civil War Naval Battle
  2. ^ Richmond Times-Dispatch, "Pokahuntas Bell for Exposition", April 13, 1907

[edit] ReferencesMilitary Heritage did a feature on the Merrimack (CSS Virginia), USS Monitor, and the Battle at Hampton Roads (Keith Milton, Military Heritage, December 2001, Volume 3, No. 3, pp.38 to 45 and p. 97).

[edit] External links- Library of Virginia official website

[hide] v • d • e

Ironclads of the Confederate States Navy Albemarle | Arkansas | Baltic | Chicora | Charleston | Columbia | Fredericksburg | Georgia | Louisiana | Manassas | Mississippi | Muscogee | Nashville | Neuse | North Carolina | Palmetto State | Raleigh | Richmond | Savannah | Stonewall | Tennessee I | Tennessee II | Texas | Virginia | Virginia II

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Sun, 16 March 2008 at 2:49 PM

Quote - Cool pic, and a great  opening for a story. I find myself wondering who would be freaked out more... the guys on the ship or the pilot!

Probably both parties would be freaked about equally........or least that would be my guess.  Although I'd say that the 19th century men would stand a greater chance of being outright terrified; having no frame of reference for anything like a stealth fighter.  But at the same time, depending upon the character of the aircraft's pilot.......who knows?

Such an experience would shock me, for sure.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Sun, 16 March 2008 at 2:53 PM

Thanks for the article, DP!

The folks back then weren't quite as technologically primitive as many people today believe that they were.  They had communications via wire, remote electrically detonated mines, and many other hints of our own modern life at that time.

It's always great to have the background details.......I love history.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



dphoadley ( ) posted Sun, 16 March 2008 at 6:30 PM

Quote - Thanks for the article, DP!

The folks back then weren't quite as technologically primitive as many people today believe that they were.  They had communications via wire, remote electrically detonated mines, and many other hints of our own modern life at that time.

It's always great to have the background details.......I love history.

 

H. L. Hunley (submarine) ### From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

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Drawing of the H. L. Hunley Career (C.S.A.) Name: H. L. Hunley Builder: Horace L. Hunley Laid down: early 1863 Launched: July 1863 Acquired: August 1863 In service: February 17, 1864 Out of service: February 17, 1864 Fate: Sunk Status: Awaiting Conservation General characteristics Displacement: 7.5 tons Length: 39.5 feet (12.04 m) Beam: 3.83 feet (1.17 m) Propulsion: hand-cranked propeller Speed: 4 knots (7.41 km/h) (surface) Complement: 1 officer, 7 enlisted Armament: 1 × spar torpedoH. L. Hunley was a submarine of the Confederate States of America that demonstrated both the advantages and the dangers of undersea warfare. The Hunley was the first submarine to sink a warship, although the submarine was also lost during the process. The Confederates lost 32 men in Hunley's career. The submarine was renamed after the death of her inventor, Horace Lawson Hunley, and some time after she had been taken into the Confederate forces at Charleston, South Carolina.

H. L. Hunley, almost 40 feet (12 m) long, was built at Mobile, Alabama, launched in July 1863, and shipped by rail to Charleston, SC on August 12, 1863. On February 17, 1864, Hunley attacked and sank the 1800-ton steam sloop USS Housatonic in Charleston harbor, but soon after, Hunley also apparently sank, drowning all 8 crewmen. Over 136 years later, on August 8, 2000, the wreck was recovered, and on April 17, 2004, the DNA-identified remains of the eight Hunley crewmen were interred in Charleston's Magnolia Cemetery, with full military honors.

Contents [hide]

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[edit] HistoryHunley and two earlier submarines were privately developed and paid for by Horace Lawson Hunley, James McClintock, and Baxter Watson.

[edit] Predecessors to Hunley

Hunley, McClintock, and Watson first built a small submarine named Pioneer at New Orleans, Louisiana. Pioneer was tested in February 1862 in the Mississippi River, and was later towed to Lake Pontchartrain for additional trials, but the Union advance towards New Orleans caused the men to abandon development and scuttle Pioneer the following month.

The three inventors moved to Mobile and joined with machinists Thomas Park and Thomas Lyons. They soon began development of a second submarine, American Diver. Their efforts were supported by the Confederate States Army; Lieutenant William Alexander of the 21st Alabama Infantry Regiment was assigned oversight duty for the project. The men experimented with electromagnetic and steam propulsion for the new submarine, before falling back on a simpler hand-cranked propulsion system. American Diver was ready for harbor trials by January 1863, but proved too slow to be practical. One attempted attack on the Union blockade was made in February 1863, but was unsuccessful. The submarine sank in the mouth of Mobile Bay during a storm later the same month and was not recovered.

[edit] Construction and testing of Hunley

Construction of Hunley began soon after the loss of American Diver. At this stage, Hunley was variously referred to as the "fish boat", the "fish torpedo boat", or the "porpoise". Legend long held Hunley was made from a cast-off steam boiler -- perhaps because a cutaway drawing by William Alexander, who had seen the real boat, showed a short and stubby machine. In fact, Hunley was purpose-designed and built for her role, and the sleek, modern-looking craft shown in R.G. Skerrett's 1902 drawing is an accurate representation. Hunley was designed for a crew of eight: seven to turn the hand-cranked propeller and one to steer and direct the boat. Each end was equipped with ballast tanks that could be flooded by valves or pumped dry by hand pumps. Extra ballast was added through the use of iron weights bolted to the underside of the hull. In the event the submarine needed additional buoyancy to rise in an emergency, the iron weight could be removed by unscrewing the heads of the bolts from inside the vessel.

Cutaway drawing of H. L. Hunley by William Alexander

Cutaway drawing of H. L. Hunley by William Alexander

Hunley was equipped with two watertight hatches, one forward and one aft, atop two conning towers with small portholes. The hatches were very small, measuring 14 by 15¾ inches (356 by 400 mm), making entrance to and egress from the hull very difficult. The ship had a hull height of 4 ft 3 in (1.2 m).

Hunley was ready for a demonstration by July 1863. Supervised by Confederate Admiral Franklin Buchanan, Hunley successfully attacked a coal flatboat in Mobile Bay. Following this demonstration, the submarine was shipped to Charleston, South Carolina, by rail, arriving August 12, 1863.

The Confederate military seized the vessel from its private builders and owners shortly after its arrival in Charleston and turned it over to the Confederate Army. Hunley would operate as a Confederate Army vessel from this point forward, although Horace Hunley and his partners remained involved in the submarine's further testing and operation. Some sources[attribution needed] list the vessel as the "CSS H. L. Hunley," though she was never officially given that designation.[citation needed]

Confederate Navy Lieutenant John A. Payne of CSS Chicora volunteered to be Hunley's skipper, and a volunteer crew of seven men from Chicora and CSS Palmetto State was assembled to operate the submarine. On August 29, 1863, Hunley's new crew was preparing to make a test dive to learn the operation of the submarine when Lieutenant Payne accidentally stepped on the lever controlling the sub's diving planes while the crew were rowing and the boat was running. This caused Hunley to dive with hatches still open, flooding her. Payne and two other men escaped; the remaining five crewmen drowned.

On October 15, 1863 Hunley failed to surface during a mock attack, killing its inventor and seven other crewmen. In both cases, the Confederate Navy salvaged the vessel and returned her to service.

[edit] Armament

Hunley was originally intended to attack by means of a floating explosive charge with a contact fuse (a torpedo in Civil War terminology) towed behind it at the end of a long rope. Hunley would approach an enemy vessel, dive under it, and surface beyond. As she continued to move away from the target, the torpedo would be pulled against the side of the target and explode. However, this plan was discarded as impractical due to the danger of the tow line fouling Hunley's screw, or of it drifting into Hunley herself.

This was replaced with a spar torpedo, a cask containing 90 pounds (41 kg) of gunpowder attached to a 22 foot-long wooden spar, as seen in illustrations of the submarine made at this time. The spar was mounted on Hunley's bow and was designed to be used when the submarine was some six feet or more below the surface. The spar torpedo had a barbed point, and would be stuck in the target vessel's side by the simple means of ramming. The spar torpedo as originally designed used a mechanical trigger attached to the attacking vessel by a cord, so that as the attacker backed away from her victim, the torpedo would explode. However, archeologists working on Hunley have discovered evidence, including a spool of copper wire and components of a battery, it may have been electrically detonated. Following Horace Hunley's death, General Beauregard issued an order the submarine was no longer to attack her target underwater. In response to this order, an iron pipe was attached to the bow of the submarine and angled downwards so the explosive charge would still be delivered under sufficient depth of water to make it effective. This was the same method developed for the earlier "David" type surface craft so successful against the USS Ironsides. The Confederate Veteran of 1902 printed a reminiscence authored by an engineer stationed at Battery Marshall who, with another engineer, made adjustments to the iron pipe mechanism before Hunley left on her last mission on the night of February 17, 1864. A drawing of the iron pipe spar, confirming its "David" type configuration, was published in several early histories of submarine warfare.

[edit] Attack on the Housatonic

Hunley made her first attack against a live target on the night of February 17, 1864. The vessel was the USS Housatonic. Housatonic, an 1800-ton, steam-powered sloop-of-war with 12 large cannons, stationed at the entrance to Charleston, South Carolina harbor, about 5 miles (8 km) out to sea. In an effort to break the naval blockade of the city, Lieutenant George E. Dixon and a crew of seven volunteers attacked Housatonic, successfully embedding the barbed spar torpedo into her hull. The torpedo was detonated as the submarine backed away, sending Housatonic and five of her crew to the bottom in five minutes, although many survived in two lifeboats or by climbing rigging until rescued. Hunley also sank, apparently just moments after signaling shore of the successful attack, possibly from damage caused by the torpedo blast, though this is not certain. The possibility must be considered the torpedo was not detonated on command, but rather malfunctioned due to damage incurred during the attack. In previous tests and actual attacks, it was intended that the torpedo be detonated approximately 150 to 175 feet from the target, to minimize any damage to the sub. However, witnesses aboard Housatonic uniformly stated it detonated at no more than about one hundred feet, and possibly as close as seventy-five.

There is convincing evidence Hunley actually survived as long as an hour after the attack (which took place at approximately 8:45 PM). The commander of Battery Marshall reported the day after the attack that he had received "the usual signals" from the submarine indicating she was returning to her base. The signal was received at approximately 9:00 PM - fifteen minutes after the Housatonic had sunk - and came from a blue carbide gas signal lantern to the base at Fort Moultrie on Sullivan's Island. The signal was also seen by crew members of Housatonic, who were in the ship's rigging awaiting rescue. The reports are quoted in the official enquiries of both Federal and Confederate Governments and in the Official Records of the war. This type of lantern can only be seen at a distance of some one and a half miles, indicating the submarine had come close to shore after the attack on Housatonic. At that point, Dixon took the sub under to try and make it back to Sullivan's Island. However, shock damage from the torpedo and magazine explosion had probably opened the sub's seams, and she was slowly filling with water. Her crew, likely suffering from malnutrition, respiratory problems, cold, and exhaustion, would have failed to realize that the submarine was slowly going under. Submerging again would have put enough water aboard that her crew would likely have driven her directly into the shallow bottom, blocking the ballast intakes and making it impossible to pump her back out. Cold and immersion would have killed the crew relatively quickly.

Her crew perished, but H.L. Hunley had earned a place in the history of undersea warfare as the first submarine to sink a ship in wartime.

[edit] The Wreck

The neutrality of this section is disputed.
Please see the discussion on the talk page.
This section has been tagged since December 2007.The Hunley discovery was described by Dr. William Dudley, Director of Naval History at the Naval Historical Center as probably the most important (underwater archaeological) find of the (20th) century." [1][2] The tiny sub and its contents have been valued at over $40,000,000, making its discovery and subsequent donation one of the most important and valuable contributions ever to South Carolina.

H. L. Hunley, suspended from a crane during its recovery from Charleston Harbor, August 8, 2000. (Photograph from the U.S. Naval Historical Center.)

H. L. Hunley, suspended from a crane during its recovery from Charleston Harbor, August 8, 2000. (Photograph from the U.S. Naval Historical Center.)

The Hunley discovery is claimed by two different individuals. Underwater Archaeologist E. Lee Spence, president, Sea Research Society, reportedly discovered Hunley in 1970,[3] and has an impressive collection of evidence[4] to validate the claim, including a Civil Admiralty Case (#80-1303-8 filed on July 8, 1980 in Federal District Court.)

On September 13, 1976, the National Park Service submitted Sea Research Society's (Spence's) location for H.L. Hunley for inclusion on the National Register of Historic Places. Spence's location for Hunley became a matter of public record when H.L. Hunley's placement on that list was officially approved on December 29, 1978.[5] [6] Spence's book Treasures of the Confederate Coast, which had a chapter on his discovery of Hunley and included a map complete with an "X" showing the wreck's location, was published in January of 1995.[7]

Diver Ralph Wilbanks, claims to have discovered the wreck in April of 1995 while leading a NUMA dive team. NUMA (National Underwater & Marine Agency) was originally a fictional government agency in Clive Cussler's series of Dirk Pitt novels. Later Cussler founded and sponsored a maritime history foundation of the same name. Ralph Wilbanks claims to have located the submarine buried under several feet of silt, which had concealed and protected the vessel for over a hundred years. The divers exposed the forward hatch and the ventilator box (the air box for the attachment of a snorkel)to identify her. The submarine was resting on her starboard side at about a 45-degree angle and was covered in a ¼ to ¾-inch encrustation of ferrous oxide bonded with sand and seashell particles. Archaeologists exposed part of the ship's port side and uncovered the bow dive plane. More probing revealed an approximate length of 40 feet, with all of the vessel preserved under the sediment.

On September 14, 1995, at the official request of Senator Glenn F. McConnell, Chairman, South Carolina Hunley Commission, E. Lee Spence, with South Carolina Attorney General Charles M. Condon signing, gifted the Hunley to the State of South Carolina. Shortly thereafter NUMA disclosed their location for the wreck. Spence claims that he discovered the Hunley in 1970 and verified the discovery in 1971 and again in 1979, and that he expected NUMA to verify the discovery, not claim it. This is an ongoing dispute involving allegations of political manipulation, judicial misconduct and other questionable behavior.

Archaeological investigation and excavation culminated with the raising of Hunley on August 8, 2000. A large team of professionals from the Naval Historical Center's Underwater Archaeology Branch, National Park Service, the South Carolina Institute of Archaeology and Anthropology, and various other individuals investigated the vessel, measuring and documenting it prior to removal. Once the on-site investigation was complete, harnesses were slipped underneath the sub and attached to a truss designed by Oceaneering, Inc. After the last harness had been secured, the crane from the recovery barge Karlissa B hoisted the submarine from the harbor bottom. Despite having used a sextant and hand-held compass, thirty years earlier, to plot the wreck's location, Dr. Spence's accuracy turned out to be within the length of the recovery barge. On August 8, 2000 at 8:37 a.m. the sub broke the surface for the first time in over 136 years, greeted by a cheering crowd on shore and in surrounding watercraft. Once safely on her transporting barge, Hunley was shipped back to Charleston. The removal operation concluded when the submarine was secured inside the Warren Lasch Conservation Center, at the former Charleston Navy Yard, in a specially designed tank of freshwater to await conservation.

[edit] The CrewThe crew was composed of Lieutenant George E. Dixon (Commander), Frank Collins, Joseph F. Ridgaway, James A. Wicks, Arnold Becker, Corporal J. F. Carlsen, C. Lumpkin, and Miller, whose first name and identity is still uncertain. [8]

Apart from the commander of the submarine, Lieutenant George E. Dixon, the identities of the volunteer crewmembers of the Hunley had long remained a mystery. Douglas Owsley, a physical anthropologist working for the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of Natural History examined the remains and determined that four of the men were American born, while the four others were European born, based on the chemical signatures left on the men's teeth and bones by the predominant components of their diet. Four of the men had eaten plenty of maize, an American diet, while the remainder ate mostly wheat and rye, a mainly European one. By examining Civil War records and conducting DNA testing with possible relatives, forensic genealogist Linda Abrams was able to identify the remains of Dixon and the three other Americans: Frank Collins, Joseph Ridgaway, and James A. Wicks. Identifying the European crew members has been more problematic, but was apparently solved in late 2004. The position of the corpses indicated that the men died at their stations and were not trying to escape from the sinking submarine.

On 17 April 2004 the remains of the crew of the H. L. Hunley were interred in Charleston's Magnolia Cemetery with full military honors. A crowd estimated at between 35,000 and 50,000, including 10,000 period military and civilian reenactors, were present for what some called the 'Last Confederate Funeral.'

The Hunley remains at the "Lasch" conservation center for further study and conservation. Continued study has led to unexpected discoveries, including the complexity of the sub's ballast and pumping systems, steering and diving apparatus, and final assembly.

Another surprise occurred in 2002, when a researcher examining the area close to Lieutenant Dixon found a misshapen $20 gold piece, minted in 1860, with the inscription "Shiloh April 6 1862 My life Preserver G. E. D." and a forensic anthropologist found a healed injury to Lt. Dixon's hip bone. The findings matched a legend, passed down in the family, that Dixon's sweetheart, Queenie Bennett, had given him the coin to protect him. Dixon had the coin with him at the Battle of Shiloh, where he was wounded in the thigh on April 16, 1862. The bullet struck the coin in his pocket, saving his leg and possibly his life. He had the gold coin engraved, and carried it as a lucky charm.[9][10]

[edit] Other- The first episode of the 1963 TV series, The Great Adventure (TV series), featured a dramatization loosely based on the events leading up to the *Hunley'*s final day. It starred Jackie Cooper as Lt. "Dickson". [1]

  • The 1999 TV movie "The Hunley" tells the story of the H. L. Hunley. with Armand Assante as Lt. Dixon. [2]

[edit] References1. ^ http://www.thehunley.com/factsheet.htm

  1. ^ Trip Atlas, "Events of 1970"
  2. ^ Cover Story: Time Capsule From The Sea - U.S. News & World Report, July 2-9, 2007
  3. ^ Attachments to Spence's sworn Affidavit of Discovery
  4. ^ National Register of Historic Places Inventory-Nomination Form
  5. ^ Programmatic agreement on management of the wreck of H.L. Hunley
  6. ^ Treasures of the Confederate Coast: The "Real Rhett Butler" & Other Revelations by Dr. E. Lee Spence, Narwhal Press, Charleston/Miami, © 1995, p.54
  7. ^ http://www.hunley.org
  8. ^ Ron Franscell. "Civil War legends surface with sub Fort Collins expert studies exhumed sailors", The Denver Post, November 18, 2002, p. A1. 
  9. ^ LT. DIXON'S GOLD COIN: The Legend Of The Gold Coin Friends of the Hunley Website

[edit] External links

Wikimedia Commons has media related to: H. L. Hunley

  1. Searches for Hunley, Cussler, Spence
  2. Sea Research Society links to Hunley
  3. Friends of the Hunley
  4. "H. L. Hunley, Confederate Submarine" at the U.S. Naval Historical Center
  5. Hunley history
  6. Pre-Hunley Confederate Submarines
  7. US Navy
  8. The Hunley (TV movie)
  9. Rootsweb
  10. Hunley - Archaeological Interpretation and 3D Reconstruction
  11. Hunley Related Items
  12. HNSA Web Page: H.L. Hunley

[edit] Bibliography- The Hunley: Submarines, Sacrifice & Success in the Civil War by Mark Ragan (Narwhal Press, Charleston/Miami, ©1995) [ISBN 1-886391-43-2]

  • Treasures of the Confederate Coast: the "real Rhett Butler" & Other Revelations by Dr. E. Lee Spence, (Narwhal Press, Charleston/Miami, ©1995)[ISBN 1-886391-00-9]

  • Civil War Sub [ISBN 0-448-42597-1]

  • The Voyage of the Hunley [ISBN 1-58080-094-7]

  • Raising the Hunley [ISBN 0-345-44772-7]

  • The CSS H.L. Hunley [ISBN 1-57249-175-2]

  • The CSS Hunley [ISBN 0-87833-219-7]

  • Shipwreck Encyclopedia of the Civil War: South Carolina & Georgia, 1861-1865 by Edward Lee Spence (Sullivan's Island, S.C., Shipwreck Press, ©1991) OCLC: 24420089

  • *Shipwrecks of South Carolina and Georgia : (includes Spence's List, 1520-1865)*Sullivan's Island, S.C. (Sullivan's Island 29482, Sea Research Society, ©1984) OCLC 10593079

  • Shipwrecks of the Civil War : Charleston, South Carolina, 1861-1865 map by E. Lee Spence (Sullivan's Island, S.C., ©1984) OCLC 11214217

  • Robert F. Burgess (1975). Ships Beneath the Sea: A History of Subs and Submersibles. United States of America: McGraw Hill, 238. 

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


flibbits ( ) posted Sun, 16 March 2008 at 8:52 PM

I enjoyed the render and the story.

Thanks.



XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Sun, 16 March 2008 at 10:03 PM · edited Sun, 16 March 2008 at 10:16 PM

Yes, I've seen the Hunley submerged in the tank of water where they are keeping it as the preservation work goes on.  It's fascinating to visit -- for anyone who's interested:

www.hunley.org

Thanks again, DP.


And thank you, flibbits!  :-)

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



dphoadley ( ) posted Sun, 16 March 2008 at 10:29 PM

Content Advisory! This message contains profanity

If I'm not mistaken, it's the Hunley that's depicted in your signature. ;=D
DPH
PS: I remember seeing the 1963 'Great Adventure' episode as a boy.  A couple of years ago I also saw the TV movie on Israel Television.

Bonnie Blue Flag.

We are a band of brothers and native to the soil
Fighting for our Liberty, With treasure, blood and toil
And when our rights were threatened, the cry rose near and far
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!

Chorus:
Hurrah! Hurrah!
For Southern rights, hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

2. As long as the Union was faithful to her trust
Like friends and brethren, kind were we, and just
But now, when Northern treachery attempts our rights to mar
We hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Chorus

3. First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand
Then came Alabama and took her by the hand
Next, quickly Mississippi, Georgia, and Florida
All raised on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Chorus

4. Ye men of valor gather round the banner of the right
Texas and fair Louisiana join us in the fight
Davis, our loved President, and Stephens statesmen are
Now rally round the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

Chorus

5. Now here's to brave Virginia, the old Dominion State,
With the young Confederacy at last has sealed her fate,
And spurred by her example, now other states prepar'
To hoist high the bonnie blue flag that bears a single star.

Chorus[2]

6. Then cheer, boys, cheer, raise a joyous shout

For Arkansas and North Carolina now have both gone out,
And let another rousing cheer for Tennessee be given,
The single star of the Bonnie Blue Flag has grown to be eleven.

Chorus

7. Then here's to our Confederacy, strong we are and brave,
Like patriots of old we'll fight, our heritage to save;
And rather than submit to shame, to die we would prefer,
So cheer for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.

*Chorus[3]

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Sun, 16 March 2008 at 11:20 PM · edited Sun, 16 March 2008 at 11:29 PM

Yes -- that's the song.

There's much about that period of history which is badly misunderstood today, and there's much to be said about it.  I don't have the time to delve extensively into the subject -- but I'll say briefly:

1.  There was an unfortunate eagerness for war in the South at the time......from people who little seemed to realize precisely what such a war would entail.

2.  Sherman was right in his pre-war estimation of the South's inability to win a protracted war with the North.  It was simply a matter of logistics: the North could afford to lose troops, and the South could not.  Grant basically won his battles by throwing men & material into a meat grinder, and then using his advantages in men & supplies to win battles.  The strategy worked, but at an awful cost.  The resulting casualties were horrendous on both sides.  Regardless of the brilliant generalship of Lee -- he simply couldn't overcome the overwhelming logistical problems involved.  The South's best chance for real victory was at Gettysburg........but certain critical breaks went against Lee.  Like the untimely death of Stonewall Jackson, who was accidentally shot by his own men shortly before -- and the enigmatic & controversial unavailability of J.E.B. Stuart during the battle.

Myself........I personally believe that Providence has a hand in the affairs of men.

3.  Men like Lee who wanted to emancipate the slaves should have been listened to.  They weren't.

4.  It was a cultural war as much as a war for other reasons.  And it wasn't any fun regardless of which side you were on.

5.  There were sterling heroes and totally vile men represented on both sides.  While still other men had mixed personal characters.....self-sacrificing and good at one time, and self-serving and evil at other times.  It all has something to do with the inherent contradictions of human nature.

6.  The last Confederate brigadier general to surrender his arms was a Native American, a full-blooded Cherokee named Stand Watie.  He was the only Native American to achieve such high rank on either side during the war.

There were reasons why the Indian Nations largely allied themselves with the Confederacy......a fact which is often forgotten or glossed over today.  Contemporary prints of western-theater battles at the time show the Confederate troops largely dressed in full traditional Native American garb -- because that's who those troops were mostly composed of.

7.  Many of the famous Union generals from the war years went on to serve out not-so-heroic careers after the war was over.  A number of them spent the remainder of their careers wiping out Native American tribes -- while others went on to be implicated in various political scandals.  Not all of them: but a fair number of them.

8.  Abraham Lincoln was a truly great man.  Jefferson Davis was a mediocre cipher.

9.  The South lost the war due to the turmoil of its own chaotic internal politics more than it lost the war on the battlefield.

There's a lot to learn from the study of history.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



dogor ( ) posted Mon, 17 March 2008 at 2:34 AM

Quote- " There's a lot to learn from the study of history."

Pay your Taxes is one of them!

Check out what would have happened concerning freeing the slaves had the South not separated from the Union. There actually was a proposed plan to emancipate all the slave states. Let's just put it this way. The Civil War was over much, much sooner. In fact it may not have ever happened once Ab' left office. That was not to be though was it?

I ran into a study of the statistics about slave value and pre-emancipation proposals before the war. Like many wars it was caused by the wealthy protecting their wealth( including the slaves being wealth of the time). You can call all them folks sterling characters all day long, but what was the strong base motive(money)? I do believe however that there were those such as Lee who fought that might have rather done it differently(an old man with heart trouble don't forget, but also a devout Christian), but I guess the federal government had to prove that nobody can just leave the Union whenever they decide it's more profitable separated. They proved it once and for all hopefully. It would have happened eventually and that was the time for it. Glad it was settled before my time. We'll see if history repeats itself. It usually does(someplace or another). General Lee did his best work after the war was over as a none US citizen. Residual animosity I suppose towards him, but they didn't want him in any public offices either. Also of course, look at the tricks the southern government used to control who could be a registered voter in the south(namely blacks) years after the Civil War was over. You'll understand why blacks are mostly democrats in the south and everywhere and why they'll vote for Obama for the most part when the time comes in my opinion.

Yep, lot's to learn.
Later, dogor.


Penguinisto ( ) posted Mon, 17 March 2008 at 12:05 PM

... I just want to know where you got the '117 mesh. :)

(I used to work on them a long, long time ago).

/P


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Mon, 17 March 2008 at 12:48 PM · edited Mon, 17 March 2008 at 1:01 PM

Yes, the wealthy planters held a lot of sway in the South at that time -- and they were a major source of a lot of the trouble that followed.  So we have no disagreements there.

Calling Lee "an old man with heart trouble" is equivalent to calling Grant "a drunken wastrel and a failed president".  It's to be in danger of badly missing the character of those men in both cases.  But yes, Lee did admirable work after the war.  He was largely responsible for tamping down what could have turned into a major guerrilla conflict which could have gone on for a decade or more after the end of the war.  There was a lot of powerful sentiment in the South at the time for continuing with armed resistance -- and much of that sentiment came from poor dirt farmers & blacksmiths -- not from wealthy plantation owners.

BTW - that "old man with heart trouble" was offered -- and refused -- command of the Union forces just before the war began.  He felt that he couldn't go against his native state and his family.  He was --rightly, IMO -- opposed to succession, but he simply could not in good conscience "raise the sword" against his own people.  And he reluctantly "raised the sword" in the conflict that followed.  It wasn't an easy time for easy decisions.

The divisions of that war went deep, even between families -- Mary Todd Lincoln's brothers were Confederate officers.  This led to suspicions that the wife of Lincoln was herself guilty of treason.......the beginning of a Congressional investigation into Mrs. Lincoln was initiated.  Lincoln personally intervened, with the result that the investigation was stillborn.

As for Reconstruction, and the hellish mess that followed after the war -- that's an entirely different subject.  Lee and some others set personal examples as true heroes after the war was over, just as they had during the war -- and their influence served to at least partially mitigate the horrible fallout.  But, unfortunately, many vile men rose up to fill the power vacuum in the South, and those corrupt men controlled things for decades afterwards -- unchecked by a series of weak and self-serving presidents who came to power in Washington: presidents who basically looked the other way as criminal elements of various factions fought over and seized power in the South.  Echoes of those factions still exist today, although they are greatly reduced in number and influence.  They are but a pale and justly reviled shadow of what they once were.

Grant has to be included in the list of ineffectual presidents; presiding over one of the most corrupt administrations in this nation's history.  Which leads to another lesson from history -- the lesson that military heroes don't always make for the best presidents.  But sometimes they get nominated / elected just because it's "his turn".  Not a good reason to ever elect or nominate anybody, IMO -- but it happens.

Our own times aren't the times of our ancestors; politics and peoples come and go.  The powerful influence of that conflict is still with us, of course - and it serves to define us as a nation even today.  But I don't look for the same conflict to happen again, certainly not for all of the same reasons.  However -- conflict is the state of Man in this world.  The base reasons and causes for war are the conflicts that rage inside of ourselves.  War is one of the outward expressions of what's inside.  So we'll fight again -- over something or other.

So yep -- lots to learn from history.  I won't re-fight the Civil War here, that's already been done 😉.  But I'll gladly delve into fantasy.......primarily designed as fantasy.  So the storyline should be taken as being nothing but pure imagination.......although it's also true that fantasy can have an underlying story of its own.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Mon, 17 March 2008 at 12:51 PM

Quote - ... I just want to know where you got the '117 mesh. :)

(I used to work on them a long, long time ago).

/P

From Vanishing Point through CP.  A very well-done model, too.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



dogor ( ) posted Mon, 17 March 2008 at 5:13 PM

Quote- " Calling Lee "an old man with heart trouble" is equivalent to calling Grant "a drunken wastrel and a failed president"

I seem to have touched a nerve there. I will say this, no matter how much you learn about the Civil War it ends the same way so no there's no sense in re-fighting it here(I agree, waste of time), but that was never my intentions anyways. Sorry for my opinion offending you. Grant was what he was, but Grant won and Lee lost just the same and Lee was old and he did have heart trouble and his plantation was in the south; so what Grant was known to drink it's all in the history books. Go ahead and follow this up with one of your carefully crafted replies I'm leaving. Seems it could get confrontational after that little drunken wastrel speel. Bye


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Mon, 17 March 2008 at 6:49 PM

No apologies needed -- you didn't "offend" me in the sense that I think you mean, nor did you "touch a nerve".  As I attempted to explain in my last post: when it comes to men like Lee and Grant, you've got to look at the whole man -- and not just at one or two aspects of their personal character.  There's a lot to them.  You also have to consider those men in the historical context of their own times -- which is precisely the point where many modern-day commentators miss the boat entirely.  There's a present-day tendency to judge historic figures by today's standards: standards which are often informed by modes of thought & experience which would have been utterly alien to the people who were actually alive during that period of history.  By no means am I saying that's what you are doing: but I've seen many examples of the practice.

In any case: what I am intending here is nothing more than the beginning of an action-adventure fantasy story with a historic backdrop for a stage.  As others have already pointed out, mixing real history into a story is a very common motif in modern scifi: and it's a motif which I personally enjoy playing around with.  However, it's handy (and fun, IMO) to know a little background about actual events, and from differing points of view.   So thanks for the input!  😄  But I'll add the thought that I am not planning on getting bogged down in a running debate about the real history of the Civil War -- the main thing that I'm doing here is taking a little stab at historical science fantasy......with all that the term "fantasy" entails.

Fantasy can be sheer time-off-from-the-daily-grind fun.  And that's the intent here.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



dogor ( ) posted Tue, 18 March 2008 at 9:26 PM

Calling Grant a drunken wastrel and calling Lee an old man with heart trouble is completely different and you know it. For one there is no shame in one's mortal state of being and two, it is a well known fact that Lee himself asked Jefferson Davis to relieve him of command. If you read the historical facts you know that. So I don't see the issue you have with saying Lee was an old man when he admitted it himself. I think you're partial to the old  "Sterling" dude. ;)

Oh, well have fun it is a nice render.
.

   


dphoadley ( ) posted Tue, 18 March 2008 at 11:00 PM

It wasn't the 'Drunken Wastrel' that won the war, but rather the wily fox:

William Tecumseh Sherman

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William Tecumseh Sherman February 8, 1820(1820-02-08) – February 14, 1891 (aged 71)
Maj. Gen. William T. Sherman, USA, in May 1865. The black ribbon around his left arm is a sign of mourning over President Lincoln's death. Portrait by Mathew Brady. Nickname Cump, Uncle Billy (by his troops) Place of birth Lancaster, Ohio Place of death New York City, New York Allegiance Flag of the United States United States of America Service/branch United States Army Years of service 1840–53, 1861–84 Rank Major General (Civil War),
General of the Army of the United States (postbellum) Commands Army of the Tennessee (1863),
Military Division of the Mississippi (1864),
Commanding General of the United States Army (postbellum) Battles/wars American Civil War
-Shiloh,

Sherman served under General Ulysses S. Grant in 1862 and 1863 during the campaigns that led to the fall of the Confederate stronghold of Vicksburg on the Mississippi River and culminated with the routing of the Confederate armies in the state of Tennessee. In 1864, Sherman succeeded Grant as the Union commander in the western theater of the war. He proceeded to lead his troops to the capture of the city of Atlanta, a military success that contributed decisively to the re-election of President Abraham Lincoln. Sherman's subsequent march through Georgia and the Carolinas further undermined the Confederacy's ability to continue fighting. He accepted the surrender of all the Confederate armies in the Carolinas, Georgia, and Florida in April 1865.

After the Civil War, Sherman became Commanding General of the Army (1869–83). As such, he was responsible for the conduct of the Indian Wars in the western United States. He steadfastly refused to be drawn into politics and in 1875 published his Memoirs, one of the best-known firsthand accounts of the Civil War.

Contents [hide]

//

[edit] Early lifeSherman was born in 1820 in Lancaster, Ohio, near the shores of the Hocking River. His father Charles Robert Sherman, a successful lawyer who sat on the Ohio Supreme Court, named him after the famous Shawnee leader Tecumseh. Judge Sherman died unexpectedly in 1829. He left his widow, Mary Hoyt Sherman, with eleven children and no inheritance. Following this tragedy, the nine-year-old Sherman was raised by a Lancaster neighbor and family friend, attorney Thomas Ewing, a prominent member of the Whig Party who served as senator from Ohio and as the first Secretary of the Interior. Sherman was distantly related to the politically influential Baldwin, Hoar & Sherman family and grew to admire American founding father Roger Sherman.[2]

Sherman's family was nominally Episcopalian, but he had not been baptized. His foster parents were devout Catholics: Maria Ewing, who was of Irish ancestry, by upbringing, and her husband Thomas by conversion. Mrs. Ewing insisted that young Tecumseh Sherman be baptized by a Catholic priest. A Dominican friar picked the baptismal name William because the event took place on June 25, the feast day of Saint William of Montevergine. Sherman was never a churchgoer[3] and he never used the name William in private life; his friends and family always called him "Cump."[4]

His older brother Charles Taylor Sherman became a federal judge. One of his younger brothers, John Sherman, served as a U.S. senator and Cabinet secretary. Another younger brother, Hoyt Sherman, was a successful banker. Two of his foster brothers served as major generals in the Union Army during the Civil War: Hugh Boyle Ewing, later an ambassador and author, and Thomas Ewing, Jr., who would serve as defense attorney in the military trials against the Lincoln conspirators.

[edit] Military training and service

Portrait of a young William T. Sherman in military uniform

Portrait of a young William T. Sherman in military uniform

Senator Ewing secured an appointment for the 16 year old Sherman as a cadet in the United States Military Academy at West Point,[5] where he roomed and became good friends with another important future Civil War General, George H. Thomas. There Sherman excelled academically, but treated the demerit system with indifference. Fellow cadet William Rosecrans would later remember Sherman at West Point as "one of the brightest and most popular fellows," and "a bright-eyed, red-headed fellow, who was always prepared for a lark of any kind."[6] About his time at West Point, Sherman says only the following in his Memoirs:

At the Academy I was not considered a good soldier, for at no time was I selected for any office, but remained a private throughout the whole four years. Then, as now, neatness in dress and form, with a strict conformity to the rules, were the qualifications required for office, and I suppose I was found not to excel in any of these. In studies I always held a respectable reputation with the professors, and generally ranked among the best, especially in drawing, chemistry, mathematics, and natural philosophy. My average demerits, per annum, were about one hundred and fifty, which reduced my final class standing from number four to six.[7]

Upon graduation in 1840, Sherman entered the Army as a second lieutenant in the 3rd U.S. Artillery and saw action in Florida in the Second Seminole War against the Seminole tribe. He was later stationed in Georgia and South Carolina. As the foster son of a prominent Whig politician, in Charleston, the popular Lt. Sherman moved within the upper circles of Old South society.[8]

While many of his colleagues saw action in the Mexican-American War, Sherman performed administrative duties in the captured territory of California. He and fellow officer Lieutenant Edward Ord reached the town of Yerba Buena two days before its name was changed to San Francisco. In 1848, Sherman accompanied the military governor of California, Col. Richard Barnes Mason, in the inspection that officially confirmed the claim that gold had been discovered in the region, thus inaugurating the California Gold Rush.[9] Sherman earned a brevet promotion to captain for his "meritorious service", but his lack of a combat assignment discouraged him and may have contributed to his decision to resign his commission. Sherman would become one of the relatively few high-ranking officers in the Civil War who had not fought in Mexico.

[edit] Marriage and business career

In 1850, Sherman was promoted to the substantive rank of Captain and married Thomas Ewing's daughter, Eleanor Boyle ("Ellen") Ewing. Ellen was, like her mother, a devout Roman Catholic, and their eight children were reared in that faith. One of their daughters, Eleanor was married to Alexander Montgomery Thackara at General Sherman’s home in Washington D. C. on May 5, 1880. To Sherman's great displeasure and sorrow, one of his sons, Thomas Ewing Sherman, was ordained a Jesuit priest in 1879.[10]

In 1853, Sherman resigned his Captaincy and became president of a bank in San Francisco. He returned to San Francisco at a time of great turmoil in the West. He survived two shipwrecks and floated through the Golden Gate on the overturned hull of a foundering lumber schooner.[11] Sherman eventually suffered from stress-related asthma because of the city's brutal financial climate.[12] Late in life, regarding his time in real-estate-speculation-mad San Francisco, Sherman recalled: "I can handle a hundred thousand men in battle, and take the City of the Sun, but am afraid to manage a lot in the swamp of San Francisco."[13] In 1856, he served as a major general of the California militia.

Sherman's bank failed during the financial Panic of 1857 and he turned to the practice of law in Leavenworth, Kansas, at which he was also unsuccessful.[14]

[edit] University superintendent

In 1859, Sherman accepted a job as the first superintendent of the Louisiana State Seminary of Learning & Military Academy in Pineville, Louisiana, a position offered to him by Major D. C. Buell and General G. Mason Graham.[15] He proved an effective and popular leader of that institution, which would later become Louisiana State University (LSU). Colonel Joseph P. Taylor, the brother of the late President Zachary Taylor, declared that "if you had hunted the whole army, from one end of it to the other, you could not have found a man in it more admirably suited for the position in every respect than Sherman."[16]

On hearing of South Carolina's secession from the United States, Sherman observed to a close friend, Professor David F. Boyd of Virginia, an enthusiastic secessionist, almost perfectly describing the four years of war to come:

You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it… Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth—right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.[17]

In January 1861 just before the outbreak of the Civil War, Sherman was required to accept receipt of arms surrendered to the State Militia by the U.S. Arsenal at Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Instead of complying, he resigned his position as superintendent and returned to the North, declaring to the governor of Louisiana, "On no earthly account will I do any act or think any thought hostile ... to the ... United States."[18] He became president of the St. Louis Railroad, a streetcar company, a position he held for only a few months before being called to Washington, D.C.

[edit] Civil War serviceMaj. Gen. William T. Sherman. Portrait by Mathew Brady, ca. 1864

Maj. Gen. William T. Sherman. Portrait by Mathew Brady, ca. 1864

[edit] Army commission

Sherman accepted a commission as a colonel in the 13th U.S. Infantry regiment on May 14, 1861. He was one of the few Union officers to distinguish himself at the First Battle of Bull Run on July 21, 1861, where he was grazed by bullets in the knee and shoulder. The disastrous Union defeat led Sherman to question his own judgment as an officer and the capacities of his volunteer troops. President Lincoln, however, promoted him to brigadier general of volunteers (effective May 17, 1861, which made him senior in rank to Ulysses S. Grant, his future commander).[19] He was assigned to command the Department of the Cumberland in Louisville, Kentucky.

[edit] Breakdown and Shiloh

During his time in Louisville, Sherman became increasingly pessimistic about the outlook of the war. His frequent complaints to Washington, D.C. about shortages and his exaggerated estimates of the strength of the rebel forces caused the local press to describe him as "crazy".[20] He was replaced in his command by Don Carlos Buell and transferred to St. Louis, Missouri, where in the fall of 1861 he experienced what would probably be described today as a nervous breakdown. He was put on leave and returned to Ohio to recuperate. While he was at home, his wife, Ellen, wrote to his brother Senator John Sherman seeking advice and complaining of "that melancholy insanity to which your family is subject".[21] However, Sherman quickly recovered and returned to service under Maj. Gen. Henry W. Halleck, commander of the Department of the Missouri. Halleck's department had just won a major victory at Fort Henry, but he harbored doubts about the commander in the field, Brig. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant, and his plans to capture Fort Donelson. Unbeknownst to Grant, Halleck offered several officers, including Sherman, command of Grant's army. Sherman refused, saying he preferred serving under Grant, even though he outranked him. Sherman wrote to Grant from Paducah, Kentucky, "Command me in any way. I feel anxious about you as I know the great facilities [the Confederates] have of concentration by means of the river and railroad, but [I] have faith in you."[22]

After Grant was promoted to major general in command of the District of West Tennessee, Sherman served briefly as his replacement in command of the District of Cairo. He got his wish of serving under Grant when he was assigned on March 1, 1862, to the Army of West Tennessee as commander of the 5th Division.[23] His first major test under Grant was at the Battle of Shiloh. The massive Confederate attack on the morning of April 6, 1862, took most of the senior Union commanders by surprise. Sherman in particular had dismissed the intelligence reports that he had received from militia officers, refusing to believe that Confederate General Albert Sidney Johnston would leave his base at Corinth. He took no precautions beyond strengthening his picket lines, refusing to entrench, build abatis, or push out reconnaissance patrols. At Shiloh, he may have wished to avoid appearing overly alarmed in order to escape the kind of criticism he had received in Kentucky. He had written to his wife that, if he took more precautions, "they'd call me crazy again".[24]

Despite being caught unprepared by the attack, Sherman rallied his division and conducted an orderly, fighting retreat that helped avert a disastrous Union rout. Finding Grant at the end of the day sitting under an oak tree in the darkness smoking a cigar, he experienced, in his own words "some wise and sudden instinct not to mention retreat". Instead, in what would become one of the most famous conversations of the war, Sherman said simply: "Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?" After a puff of his cigar, Grant replied calmly: "Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow, though."[25] Sherman would prove instrumental to the successful Union counterattack of April 7, 1862. Sherman was wounded twice—in the hand and shoulder—and had three horses shot out from under him. His performance was praised by Grant and Halleck and after the battle, he was promoted to major general of volunteers, effective May 1, 1862.[26]

[edit] Vicksburg and Chattanooga

Map of the Battle of Chattanooga, 1863

Map of the Battle of Chattanooga, 1863

Sherman developed close personal ties to Grant during the two years they served together. Shortly after Shiloh, Sherman persuaded Grant not to resign from the Army, despite the serious difficulties he was having with his commander, General Halleck. Sherman offered Grant an example from his own life, "Before the battle of Shiloh, I was cast down by a mere newspaper assertion of 'crazy', but that single battle gave me new life, and I'm now in high feather." He told Grant that, if he remained in the army, "some happy accident might restore you to favor and your true place."[27] The careers of both officers ascended considerably after that time. Sherman later famously declared that "Grant stood by me when I was crazy and I stood by him when he was drunk and now we stand by each other always."[28]

Sherman's military record in 1862–63 was mixed. In December 1862, forces under his command suffered a severe repulse at the Battle of Chickasaw Bayou, just north of Vicksburg, Mississippi. Soon after, his XV Corps was ordered to join Maj. Gen. John A. McClernand in his successful assault on Arkansas Post, generally regarded as a politically motivated distraction from the effort to capture Vicksburg.[29] Before the Vicksburg Campaign in the spring of 1863, Sherman expressed serious reservations about the wisdom of Grant's unorthodox strategy,[30] but he went on to perform well in that campaign under Grant's supervision. After the surrender of Vicksburg to the Union forces under General Grant on July 4, 1863, Sherman was promoted from major general of volunteers to brigadier general in the regular army.

During the Battle of Chattanooga in November, Sherman, now in command of the Army of the Tennessee, quickly took his assigned target of Billy Goat Hill at the north end of Missionary Ridge, only to discover that it was not part of the ridge at all, but rather a detached spur separated from the main spine by a rock-strewn ravine. When he attempted to attack the main spine at Tunnel Hill, his troops were repeatedly repulsed by Patrick Cleburne's heavy division, the best unit in Braxton Bragg's army.[31] Sherman's effort was overshadowed by George Henry Thomas's army's successful assault on the center of the Confederate line, a movement originally intended as a diversion.

[edit] Georgia

Map of Sherman's campaigns in Georgia and the Carolinas, 1864–1865

Map of Sherman's campaigns in Georgia and the Carolinas, 1864–1865

Despite this mixed record, Sherman enjoyed Grant's confidence and friendship. When Lincoln called Grant east in the spring of 1864 to take command of all the Union armies, Grant appointed Sherman (by then known to his soldiers as "Uncle Billy") to succeed him as head of the Military Division of the Mississippi, which entailed command of Union troops in the Western Theater of the war. As Grant took command of the Army of the Potomac, Sherman wrote to him outlining his strategy to bring the war to an end concluding that "if you can whip Lee and I can march to the Atlantic I think ol' Uncle Abe will give us twenty days leave to see the young folks".[32]

Sherman proceeded to invade the state of Georgia with three armies: the 60,000-strong Army of the Cumberland under George Henry Thomas, the 25,000-strong Army of the Tennessee under James B. McPherson, and the 13,000-strong Army of the Ohio under John M. Schofield.[33] He fought a lengthy campaign of maneuver through mountainous terrain against Confederate General Joseph E. Johnston's Army of Tennessee, attempting a direct assault only at the disastrous Battle of Kennesaw Mountain. The cautious Johnston was replaced by the more aggressive John Bell Hood, who played to Sherman's strength by challenging him to direct battles on open ground.

Sherman's Atlanta Campaign concluded successfully on September 2, 1864 with the capture of the city. After ordering all civilians to leave the city, he ordered that all military and government buildings be burned. This was to set a precedent for future behavior by his armies. Capturing Atlanta was an accomplishment that made Sherman a household name in the North and helped ensure Lincoln's presidential re-election in November. Lincoln's electoral defeat by Democratic Party candidate George B. McClellan, the former Union army commander, had appeared likely in the summer of that year. Such an outcome would probably have meant the victory of the Confederacy, as the Democratic Party platform called for peace negotiations based on the acknowledgment of the Confederacy's independence. Thus the capture of Atlanta, coming when it did, may have been Sherman's greatest contribution to the Union cause. Sherman was rewarded with a promotion to major general in the regular army.

Green-Meldrim house, where Sherman stayed after taking Savannah in 1864

Green-Meldrim house, where Sherman stayed after taking Savannah in 1864

After Atlanta, Sherman began his march south, declaring that he could "make Georgia howl". Initially disregarding Hood's army moving into Tennessee, he boasted that if Hood moved north he (Sherman) would "give him rations" as "my business is down south." He quickly, however, had to send an army back to deal with Hood.[34] Sherman marched with 62,000 men to the port of Savannah, Georgia, living off the land and causing, by his own estimate, more than $100 million in property damage.[35] Sherman called this harsh tactic of material war "hard war", which is now, in modern times, known as total war.[36] At the end of this campaign, known as Sherman's March to the Sea, his troops captured Savannah on December 22, 1864. Sherman then telegraphed Lincoln, offering him the city as a Christmas present.

Sherman's success in Georgia received ample coverage in the Northern press at a time when Grant seemed to be making little progress in his fight against Confederate General Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. A bill was introduced in Congress to promote Sherman to Grant's rank of lieutenant general, probably with a view towards having him replace Grant as commander of the Union Army. Sherman wrote both to his brother, Senator John Sherman, and to General Grant vehemently repudiating any such promotion.[37]

[edit] The Carolinas

General Sherman and his staff, photographed by Mathew Brady

General Sherman and his staff, photographed by Mathew Brady

In the spring of 1865, Grant ordered Sherman to embark his army on steamers to join him against Lee in Virginia. Instead, Sherman persuaded Grant to allow him to march north through the Carolinas, destroying everything of military value along the way, as he had done in Georgia. He was particularly interested in targeting South Carolina, the first state to secede from the Union, for the effect it would have on Southern morale. His army proceeded north through South Carolina against light resistance from the troops of Confederate General Joseph E. Johnston. Upon hearing that Sherman's men were advancing on corduroy roads through the Salkehatchie swamps at a rate of a dozen miles per day, Johnston declared that "there had been no such army in existence since the days of Julius Caesar."[38]

Sherman captured the state capital of Columbia, South Carolina on February 17, 1865. Fires began that night and by next morning, most of the central city was destroyed. The burning of Columbia has engendered controversy ever since, with some claiming the fires were accidental, others a deliberate act of vengeance, and still others that the retreating Confederates burned bales of cotton on their way out of town. Local Native American Lumbee guides helped Sherman's army cross the Lumber River through torrential rains and into North Carolina. According to Sherman, the trek across the Lumber River, and through the swamps, pocosins, and creeks of Robeson County "was the damnedest marching I ever saw". Thereafter, his troops did little damage to the civilian infrastructure, as North Carolina, unlike its southern neighbor, which was seen as a hotbed of secession, was regarded by his men to be only a reluctant Confederate state, due to its position as the last to join the Confederacy.

Shortly after his victory over Johnston's troops at the Battle of Bentonville, Sherman met with Johnston at Bennett Place in Durham, North Carolina to negotiate a Confederate surrender. At the insistence of Johnston and Confederate President Jefferson Davis, Sherman offered generous terms that dealt with both political and military issues, despite having no authorization to do so from either General Grant or the Cabinet. The government in Washington, D.C. refused

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


Penguinisto ( ) posted Tue, 18 March 2008 at 11:10 PM

Cripes, people - can't you just leave a URL to the friggin' Wikipedia page!?

Geez...

/P


dphoadley ( ) posted Tue, 18 March 2008 at 11:12 PM
XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Wed, 19 March 2008 at 2:30 AM · edited Wed, 19 March 2008 at 2:43 AM

I see that we have more encyclopedic info available to us -- :ohmy:

The "drunken wastrel" comment was deliberate hyperbole intended to illustrate a point......not to be taken literally.  😉  Although it's certainly true that Grant liked the sauce to excess.

The point being that defining those men on the basis of one or two items is to seriously err.

By today's analysis:

Grant was an alcoholic
Sherman suffered from mental illness
Mrs. Lincoln was bipolar (?)
A. Lincoln suffered from clinical depression
Stonewall Jackson had a mild form of autism known as Aspergers Syndrome

And so forth............

Also, as I've hinted at earlier -- Grant was far better at being a general than he was at the job of being a president:

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h234.html

There's a section on the Grant presidency in the article at this Wiki link, including a section dealing with the various scandals (among them evidence of serious anti-semitism coming either from Grant himself, or from his close relatives, or from both).  Grant himself was never personally implicated in direct scandal, but he seemed clueless about the things that others -- especially close relatives appointed to his administration -- were doing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant


"Sterling" is a well-deserved descriptor for Lee.  He was among the finest of men.  There have been few like him in positions of power throughout history.  Most powerful people display a distinct tendency to be corrupt & self-serving: hiding their true natures underneath an outward facade of good-seeming -- if they aren't openly evil.  Not this man.  He was the genuine article.

So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that Slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interest of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this that I would have cheerfully lost all that I have lost by the war, and have suffered all that I have suffered to have this object attained.  -- Robert E. Lee

With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword...  -- Robert E. Lee

They do not know what they say. If it came to a conflict of arms, the war will last at least four years. Northern politicians will not appreciate the determination and pluck of the South, and Southern politicians do not appreciate the numbers, resources, and patient perseverance of the North. Both sides forget that we are all Americans. I foresee that our country will pass through a terrible ordeal, a necessary expiation, perhaps, for our national sins.* -- Robert E. Lee

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



dogor ( ) posted Wed, 19 March 2008 at 4:14 AM

I think it was a stab at Grant to get me back because I called Lee an old man with heart trouble. I don't know why you would think I was defining Lee's whole life or his whole career by saying that, but I'll go ahead and except that you did make that mistake and you were just explaining how ridiculous that is with a hyperbole. :)

 


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Wed, 19 March 2008 at 1:05 PM

Thank you for excepting it -- because if you had accepted it, then you'd be wrong.  😉

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



dogor ( ) posted Wed, 19 March 2008 at 2:35 PM

LOL!

I think you defined your stance on discussing all the details early on didn't you? I don't accept any notion that you're not partial to Robert E Lee though because while mentioning Grant as a drunken good for nothing in a hyperbole you have failed to mention any faults of your favorite completely. I won't mention them. If we delve off in that direction we'll make everyone in that era look bad in some form or another while possibly ours would be nothing more than a white washed picket fence.

 


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Wed, 19 March 2008 at 3:24 PM · edited Wed, 19 March 2008 at 3:25 PM

It's an easy thing to dig up anyone's imperfections.  If Lee wasn't imperfect (a thing which he admitted to himself, and often), then he wouldn't have been human.  It's all a matter of scale.  Lee was an admirable man -- with feet of clay.  But sterling, as humans go.  In his own lifetime, he was sometimes referred to as "the marble man": the implication being that only a statue could embody the ideals that he did in the flesh.

Yes, Lee has his detractors today, just like he did back then.  

Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example. - Mark Twain

The men of that era were made of the same sort of substances which comprise the men of our own era.  So we need to be careful what sort of judgments we mete out to them......we'll be held to the same standard.

Yes, I admire Lee.  Because IMO he was better than his contemporaries.  This isn't a matter of playing "favorites": it's a matter of observation through the eyes of the people who actually knew him, and who knew the others.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



dogor ( ) posted Wed, 19 March 2008 at 5:11 PM

Also we would be confined inside of the white washed fence. The fence being made of materials like political correctness, morals or religion mixed with difference of opinions and the list goes on and on until nobody can do anything that isn't wrong in some form or fashion or that offends another group over here or there. Kinda the position we're back in here today in America. The same position they found themselves in back then that festered into lack of trust brotherly love and eventually a Civil War. The slaves were freed, but it wasn't over yet.

Yep, lots to learn from history. :
later


XENOPHONZ ( ) posted Wed, 19 March 2008 at 5:28 PM

Yep -- history isn't over yet.

Yet.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 



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