i have just had a look at art work in bryce gallery, and also looked at hot 20 some of the stuff there is someones attempt to be in the hot twenty, maybe it is time to place restrictions on what "art" is placed in the bryce gallery it can not be creating much of an impression to new visitors as to what 3d artists are about? just my thoughts but surely the point of hot 20 is to create competition between artists to do higher quality work rather than what is happening in that gallery at the present time.

etep, I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, this subject has been thrown around time and time again, and the powers that be do not appear to feel it is necessary to change things in the bryce gallery.

I agree with you etep as well...And fozzibear if enough of us say something about it maybe the powers that be will reconsider their views. One can only hope. Impression.....the impression I got when I first visited this formu is why I still visit this forum. First impressions do count, perhaps more than we would think. Just one mans opinoin here though.

that is why i had my grizzle, had some friends here in new zealand that had a look at site for first time,they will never return to the site and one of them said ,no way they letting their kids get 3d programme when will the powers to be stand up and be counted, when someone startes to cut and paste hi quality xrated material in bryce backgrounds should i try?

Pornography is always difficult to define- one man's poison, etc. I would also hazard that if these things make the top 20 that means the majority of viewers appreciate it. It's not that I'm a prude but this is the reason I haven't visited the Poser or Bryce galleries in ages- this stuff gets boring really fast. Unfortunately, I probably miss seeing a few great images. I recommend you visit some actual art galleries on the web. You'll still run into a lot of this stuff but at least it tends to be better done and much of it can actually be called art by someone interested in more than just salaciousness. Next time you want to show people what Bryce can do try the Bryce Select Forum: http://www.bmacleod.com/selectgallery.html There's some pretty good stuff there and any nudity tends to be somewhat more tasteful and less "in your face".

I know how you all feel, personally I dont even bother with the Top 20 in any of the gallerys, I stick to the Whats New All section, this is the only true way to see what all is out there. Its sad that for every one great image, we have to weed through so many bad images,(not meaning bad as in bad artists, just bad images). Ken

The boundary between erotic art and porn is indeed a contentious one, particularly when some artists go out of their way to confront what many would find disturbing. I tend to draw the line in such a way as to include as art what a lot of others would not like at all. In response to this thread, I've had a look at the "Hot 20" (which I never did before) and ... yup, it's cheap porn. What is it doing on Renderosity?

Its not so tough deciding what's porn and what's not. The 'Miller' test for whats obscene or not uses a local standard (ie, what do the local folks think) as well as a national standard (what do people across the country think). From reading above, seems there's no difficulty determining what folks think. I don't care much for the stuff that crosses the line. Nudes can be good art when done with graphite or sculpting and kept tasteful. I've not seen that kind of talent in 3d nudes ever. Something about the media that just isn't the same as hand crafted work. Heck, most look like cheap cartoons which clearly focus on the erotic rather than the beauty.

And that's exactly why I've almost given up on the Poser community -- it's run by guys who clearly can't get a date in the RW and have decided to take a nifty little program and use it porn... uh, excuse me, erotica. Someone in there noted that if an alien culture looked at the things available for Victoria at the moment, they would figure our women were either all exhibitionists or strippers. I can hardly wait for the day when we have the ability to seamlessly import Poser animations in Bryce constructs. God knows what these fertile little minds will come up with for that.....

This stuff is not really pornographic. It's a kind of pre-adolescent nudge nudge wink wink soft porn. I know it's hard to wade through so much crap. But you might miss the Argentinian priest Gevidal,I think his name is. His is art. And I mean art with a capital A.

Personally I wouldn't trust that "Miller test" an inch. You would have to throw out much in the history of art on the basis of what people thought at the time. Why not do science the same way? Have a poll of local people on whether relativity is correct? No, I prefer my own judgement. But I think we are agreed that the stuff in question belongs on Renderotica and NOT here.

Phantast, Well, much of art is pornography. I suppose the deciding factor is whether it is just pornographic or has further "artistic" content. Like you I prefer to decide for myself. But if a thing is pornographic is determined by each individual then it would lose all meaning. Like it or not, defining pornography really is a collective decision. Of course, this also means that what is determined to be pornographic will vary depending upon a particular time in a particular society. As such I would say that the "Miller test" remains useful. Why should we not treat science the same way? Simple. Pornography or obscenity are subjective things governed by emotion and cultural background. If public opinion determines that a pineapple is pornographic it will by definition be pornographic. Conversely science is a body of knowledge governed by systemic laws of the physical world. While our level or accuracy of scientific knowledge may be flawed at times this does not change the facts or truth- only our understanding. In other words, we could call a pineapple an animal but despite this it will always remain a fruit.

Great art is always dangerous to someone. So is great science. Popular opinion has a very bad record,picking art of any kind. It reminds me of an old chinese saying "If a thousand people have a ridiculous thought, it's still a ridiculous thought". I'm not saying that this stuff is great art. It's that a pronouncement either way about pornography or art is doomed. We can say with a little more certainty that 90% of what's out there at any given time is worthless,and history has born that out.

Pornography is not subjective. It is clearly defined as visual and/or auditory content created and presented for the sole purpose of sexual gratification or stimulation. That's what it is and there ain't no denyin' it. Art, however, is totally subjective and can easily and often does blur into pornography. After all, folks were mighty turned on by the Mona Lisa's seductive smile in her day... there's no shame in pornography if you're an adult and you're looking for it. However it shouldn't appear where it's not expected. The general populous is disturbed by pornographic imagery - especially when they're surprised by it. I can see how average folks would be disillusioned by viewing the Bryce HOT20, as many of the images, while technically well done, were obviously done with the intent of sexual stimulation. (the images themselves would lose no artistic merit if the people in them wore clothes, would they? - they'd still be good art, and funny and all that, they just wouldn't be porn anymore...) Sexuality has it's place in art, it's a huge part of us as living beings, but a posette with her legs spread being examined by aliens (again, technically a well done image) should perhaps be separated from the non-overtly-sexual images. It should ALL be accessible, I believe, but as creators we should take responsibility for our intentions, and not cry "WAAAAH....IT'S ART" every time someone complains. Porn is porn. Don't be ashamed to call it that. Everyone deserves to show their work to the world, regardless of content. If you make an image that turns you on, or is overtly sexual, good for you! But do you not agree that perhaps it should be in a gallery with other images of that type? Where you won't be surprised by it as you're trying to show your kids how cool Bryce art can be? Wasn't that what Renderotica was all about? If the gallery moderators here don't care, then that's another thing altogether. Certainly seems to be the case, anyway. It's their house, after all, we're just partyin' in it. But the BEST artists are here, and it's a crime to send folks away from Renderosity to view the Bryce Forum gallery because the owners of this gallery won't recognize requests to separate content. That's just lost potential revenue... and definitely lost site traffic.

Well having just looked at the HOT20 list and there is some images that I would consider leaving out. But if you look at all the pictures 14 of the 20 are not pornographic in nature. I agree that pornogaphy is defind, but someone thinking it is or is not...will never be...that is subjective. I don't care about seeing it personally but I can respect the views of others not wanting to see it. This is a subject that will never rest and all will never agree on. If people are bothered by it enough the op's will remove it or sensor it.

Pornography is not subjective. It is clearly defined as visual and/or auditory content created and presented for the sole purpose of sexual gratification or stimulation. The existence of pornography is not subjective. What constitutes pornography is. The subjective part lies in what the culture determines is or is not sexually gratifying. That in turn determines what is pornographic. Here's an amusing anecdote though I must admit I do not know how true it may be. Nevertheless, it illustrates the point. It seems sometime ago an Eastern potentate went horseback riding with some western dignitaries during one of those political visits. During the ride his wife fell off her horse. She wore no undergarments and thus her natural nether endowments were visible for all to see. Her husband was immensley proud of her because during her fall she had managed to keep her face concealed behind her veil. Meanwhile the westerners were horribly embarrassed for her. Personally, I find war and hate far more pornographic but these are not covered by the definition. Go figure.