Quote - -Stright men render the women they want.... well you know the type.
-Stright women render the women they want to be.... princesses, soft/petite, enticing , youthful, thin.

with exceptions, of course.

Sheesh, I always knew I wuz a bit strange...  Why should guys have all the fun.

But, yes, I think in an arena where a level of sexual expression is alowed, it is likely to be one of the main driving forces. It's only one of the most powerful drives in nature - so why not it have influence in one's artistic expression.

Quote - The funny thing to me is that Apollo hasn't become the male standard given how people feel about M3. Is it simply that RMP and DAZ are the entry point for most end-users and they just can't make the jump to a FREE superior figure?

Apollo may be superior in rigging and most everything... but some of us simply don't like his face. I think his body is great, really great - but I totally and absolutely detest his pudgy face. He simply isn't to my taste and even free... I don't use him.
If M3 had the same pudgy face - I wouldn't use him either. It's simply a matter of taste.
(Please don't start with the 'if you get xyz's morphs/textures this that and the other - been there. Gone through it, I don't like the face. We can't all like the same thing. It's a personal choice. The End.)

However - I am really looking forward to Phantom3D's male figure (I don't do much with the females and I have enough of them) to the extent that I'm looking at learning Hexagon properly so I might be able to uh... create stuff for the figure. :)

My impossible fantasy... the UNIVERSAL NECK.

Why the heel couldn't there be a standard neck so people could head swap all they want?

I would settle for the UNIVERSAL NECK scarf for that matter ;^(

Silke, you do know your not suppose to just use the default face right?

I think the fact you don't use him is really the problem. His face is pudgy only if you dial him that way. The defualt is simply a blank.  You also have the face room at your disposal.

You should try the 2007 release. It's like food. You have to taste it before you say your don;t like it. But really taste it. :) Once you do you'll relealize you can make more unique faces with Apollo than any other figure. You can even make Mike and David style faces if that is what you like; easily.

Either way. Use what you like. That's all that matters. :)

But if you want, show me a pic of a face you love and I'll mimic on Apollo for you.

Yes, Anton should be thanked for providing Apollo to the community for free.  So should all of the myriad of other freestuff providers who are so kind in sharing their time and effort with us.

BTW - I know a fair number of people who make their full living off of Poser.  And a good living, too. In addition -- as some have already so helpfully pointed out -- I also know a lot of others who view Poser as  providing a nice supplemental income.  Personally, I've never seen anything wrong with supplemental income.  Even if it isn't, strictly speaking, necessary.  The busy stay busy, I suppose..........

Designing real-world buildings / 3D fantasy -- the difference being that the fantasy side of the equation is fun as well as profitable.

Xeno,

Are you having a bad day or something?

Ah, yes -- and permit me to add: thanks go to the commercial websites, to the vendors, and to the companies without whose software, models, and hard work this hobby / semi-profession / profession (your choice) would not be possible for those of us who enjoy it.

Quote - Xeno,

Are you having a bad day or something?

Whatever gave you that idea?  But to answer: no, I'm not. 

3/24/08

"But, yes, I think in an arena where a level of sexual expression is alowed, it is likely to be one of the main driving forces. It's only one of the most powerful drives in nature - so why not it have influence in one's artistic expression."

Conniekat8:

I bought Poser to render bowls of fruit and dogs playing poker. Didn't everyone?

Incidentally, I looked through all the pages of V4 clothing at RMP to find a standard business suit. Guess how many I found?

LMK

Hi Silke

I usually don't make it a habit of comparing Poser figures, but then again those of us at CG society don't view Apollo as a Poser figure.  We view him as a 3d figure.  Check it out http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=47&t=571544&highlight=apollo+maximus
Sites up and running again

Quote - V4 clothing at RMP to find a standard business suit. Guess how many I found?

Off the cuff, there are several suits here that might do, depending upon the style of business suit that you're looking for:

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=kobamax

Or here.  Several of them might work; the "Hilliary Clinton" sets have a standard business suit included with the character package:

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=517634

There are no doubt others that will work as well, but I don't have the time to look for them right now.

Poserworld is an excellent source of such clothing, too.

In reading this thread earlier it seems to be a popular point of veiw that people should simply give away their creations, or price them at nothing. I can understand the sentiment. Many people  create in poser as a hobby and use other peoples work to make their renders ect.  Do any of you paint or work some other arts and crafts?  Do you expect to get your paints and brush's, canvas and supplies for free? Should the people  who create those things simply give away their hard work and time so you can pursue your hobby?  I  think there would be no supplies if that were the case.  I would love to be a modeler full time, explore sculpting in the 3D realm, I can't afford to. I have to live eat and pay my bills. I know what it's like to be a starving artist, living on the street, painting peoples portrait in the plaza and market to get enough to eat and continue, no one wanting to pay me for what my work was worth. I gave up, I quit,I got too old to live that way anymore.

People put their time effort and talent into the peices they create, so you don't have to. They deserve to get paid.

Quote - People put their time effort and talent into the peices they create, so you don't have to. They deserve to get paid.

Yep.

Speaking of that .

Xenophonz, do you get paid a standard wage to beta test for the marketplace? I know most sites don't pay beta testers. Just curious. Beta testers invest a lot of time.

Yes, Anton, testing is a paid position at Renderosity.  And yes, it's my understanding that most sites don't actually pay their testers, outside of "taking it out in trade".

And three times yes -- testing is time-consuming.  But I enjoy it -- so it provides more than one type of compensation.  Plus it keeps me off of the street. 

I suppose that offering your hard work & talent for free to the community provides a different type of compensation of its own.

3/25/08

The one thing in life that you can count on being abundantly free is advice. And it is generally worth every penny you pay for it.

LMK

Quote - 3/25/08

The one thing in life that you can count on being abundantly free is advice. And it is generally worth every penny you pay for it.

LMK

:laugh:

Quote - Yes, Anton, testing is a paid position at Renderosity.  And yes, it's my understanding that most sites don't actually pay their testers, outside of "taking it out in trade".

And three times yes -- testing is time-consuming.  But I enjoy it -- so it provides more than one type of compensation.  Plus it keeps me off of the street. 

I suppose that offering your hard work & talent for free to the community provides a different type of compensation of its own.

Cool. You guys deserve to get paid. Glad at least Rendeorsity pays beta testers.

I never thought about feeling comphensated for having Apollo be free. That's interesting. I am happy people enjoy him as much as they do. And I enjoy sharing/ helping people. I think it is probably best described as feeling good about contributing something positive, trying to make things better for all; despite some of the reactions and comments.

Making Apollo free did end most all of the forum trolling merchants are prone to. So that was a bonus.

When people give their own works away for free, great, more power to them. But to complain about paying a paltry 10 bucks for something that someone put alot of effort into, and feel those people aught to just give it to them, its absurd. If you want it pay for it.

Oh, I'd never react negatively to anyone who wishes to provide their talents, know-how, and their hard work to the community for free.

We might disagree over certain methodologies & technical business issues -- which we no doubt do.  We probably strongly disagree on other matters, too.  But as I've indicated elsewhere and at other times to other people -- such disagreements do not stem from any personally-based animus.  shrug  Online debates usually occur with people who -- in reality -- you don't know (at all) on that sort of level.  So you can disagree without it meaning anything beyond the bare basis of the immediate debate.  IMO, there isn't a place for personal insult in this type of format.  But of course: I can only control my own behavior, and not that of others.

I have to give you credit: you did not go to that level at all here.  Unfortunately, many do.

My earlier statement that you were to be thanked for providing your work for free was not intended as sarcasm.  I will thank anyone who does that.

On the other hand, I also thank those who seek to be paid for their work.  Each contributes in their own way -- and neither should be looked down upon for doing what they do.  That's positive, IMO.

 3/25/08

phantom3D:

Were I to put my money where my mouth is, I wouldn't know how to agree with you more than to be among the first of your customers, which I hope will be soon. :) LMK

Hi Phantom 3d

I agree.  For me,  I'm ready to quit and head back over to CgSociety,  build up my portfolio and make a few demo reels.  Midway Games in Chicago is hiring.  BTW Have you joined CGSociety yet?

Cheers

Pat 

I hope they hire you at a fabulous salary, Pat. 

Quote - Hi Phantom 3d

I agree.  For me,  I'm ready to quit and head back over to CgSociety,  build up my portfolio and make a few demo reels.  Midway Games in Chicago is hiring.  BTW Have you joined CGSociety yet?

Cheers

Pat 

No I haven't I went and looked but was not sure what the site was exactly, I am all very new to this internet and 3D. Plus at this time I cannot really afford the price to join.

XENOPHONZ:  I was not aware of it if I attacked anyone personally, but those are my feelings, and veiwpoint on the subject, one which all too often goes unsaid, and just as valid as any other.  If so many people want to give from their heart then why not support some of these great artists who rely on selling their work to get by? The arts and artistic expression die without support, and yes that means money support as well.  We have lost too much already.

lkendall:  thanks, I hope it will be soon.

phantom3D

Phantom3D:

Actually, my post wasn't directed to you at all......I was responding to Anton.  I posted that before I'd even seen your post just above it.  Sorry for any confusion.

In fact, I agree with the things that you've been saying.

Xenophonz,

Oh it's all good. Thanks. No worries.

Quote - Xenophonz,

Oh it's all good. Thanks. No worries.

Very good.

3/25/08

????

This is spooky. I could swear I smell a campfire, and I think I hear some one tuning a guitar to sing "Kum-ba-ya." I'm going to bed before the group hugs start.

LMK

Quote - 3/25/08

????

This is spooky. I could swear I smell a campfire, and I think I hear some one tuning a guitar to sing "Kum-ba-ya." I'm going to bed before the group hugs start.

LMK

:lol:

If you prefer it, I can bring up sure-fire topics that we'll really fight about.......and turn this thread into one of those 35,000+ viewings types of threads.    Only problem is that they'd lock it -- the mods around here are like that.  They prefer to keep things down to a dull roar most of the time.

Deliberately disengaging over what could have been an interesting & prolonged fight is so......boring, I know.  No fun to read.  A very unsatisfying conclusion.  sigh

Forum free-for-alls can be fun.  But in my experience: they can also be an utter waste of time.  I'll fight when I believe there's a need to.  I don't see that here.

People might still be snarling at each other over the campfire -- but at least the night is quiet out.  And no one's tossed a burning stick in my general direction yet.

If you crave excitement, then you might want to try throwing some gasoline on the campfire before you go to bed......although at $3.20-to-$3.50 / gallon, doing that could get expensive...........especially if you set the woods on fire in the process.  Blacken the marshmallows, and people could get very upset.........they might form up a lynch mob.......and then you never can tell what might happen.

I heard what "Kum-by-ya" meant once, but I've forgotten.  It's late, so I won't take the time to google it & then impress everyone with my encyclopedic grasp of meaningless trivia.

I'm signing out, too.  :m_sleep:

Quote - Just a tought on that...

Content paradise seem to be the only company offering base characters and i was really wondering why.

I am amazed that no one wants to tap into the base market and compete...

Daz seems to want to become it's whole one in all solution and move slowly away from poser which is a shame....

But besides that you have to wonder ..there is a ton of 3d artists out there basically starving but no one seems inclined to get on the bandwagon to create figures for poser....

If Daz decides to cut away completely from poser,  i can see poser suffer an horrible death because most people use daz for their 3d assets.

Without discounting content paradise which offer good products, daz is the giant in this business and it is gonna end up like crap for the users because of that monopoly....

my 2 cents

Hmmm... OK, I'll bite!

1. Base characters were always hard to make.  Standards are higher and the market is fragmented between programs with different requirements.  There are so many morphs and accessories for existing figures that simply offering a compelling new figure into a fragmented marketplace might not be as appealing as it once was.

2. Because you can't just tap into the base market.  You have to have a figure that not only improves on previous figures but does so to the point of overcoming the lack of morphs, poses and accessories that other popular figures enjoy.

3. Well, Poser figures have always been difficult to make.  That's why there are commercial figures and a market to begin with.  Just as it briefly looked like there was an unofficial standard for Poser figures, Daz Studio appeared with its own requirements.  Poser's owners completely failed to respond to this have done little to assure people just now getting into the marketplace that any long term commitment would be wise.

4. Daz aren't moving away from Poser, they are just moving while Poser is not.  Perhaps they could have maintained greater compatibility with existing Poser content at one time, but why should they care now?  They have their own free program which, if it has one thing going for it, is at least still actively developed by people who have some idea what it should become in the future.

5. Because, given that is it unnaturally difficult to do, there aren't many people looking to learn the arcane art of creating content for a program whose limitations become more apparent with each new version of competing apps.  There are only so many swords and temples to make until Poser gains a level of functionality that renders, no pun intended, existing swords and temples obsolete.

6. Poser won't die because of Daz.  If it does die we can blame  for it.  Don't blame Daz for taking a the inititative to make sure their eggs didn't stay in someone else's basket.  Competition is good, remember?

7. Funny you should blame Daz for all of their hard work paying off.  While Poser was changing hands again they were writing their own program practically from the ground up and then gave it away.  I won't say they are the best company ever (Hexagon patch guys?) but they didn't get where they are by doing nothing.  I'd like to see them face a good competitor in this market too, but I can't fault them for the absence of one.  (Hey, there's always iClone!)

No competition is always bad for all but the one with the monopoly. Look at your gas bills and electrical, You have to pay them whatever they tell you to regardless of whether or not what they offer is crap or not, because they are the only source.  Blame Daz? No, blame us all for not giving another a chance.

Someone mentioned earlier something about it all becoming wallmartized. Think about that.............Do any of you remember what I call supermarket paintings? All those mass produced paintings on black velvet? That's what happens to art when you wallmartize it. To me that would be a disaster, but you get what you pay for I guess.

Attached Link: 3D World Issue 103

The latest issue of 3D World (just out to subscribers, probably soon in stores) talks about this very thing ... and Autodesk is getting into it as well. If Autodesk is heading in this direction as well it must have some merit.

See link, under the "GDC 08" heading.

>> If Poser Pros was successful, it wouldn't have been closed.

Not entirely true. PoserPros was very successful: the store had high quality standards, and the admins were among the best around.

But IMHO DAZ got tired of seeing how well PP was doing and how its own AZ was falling on its face, so it decided, in its best landlord fashion, to move everything it could from PP to AZ, in the hope that it can duplicate PP's success there. Look at the AZ marketplace: it's all formerly PP stuff, with support for figures that DAZ dropped a long time ago, like the K Family. Many of the PP moderators have been asked to move over to the Dark Side to attend to the new fora planned for there.

Dont fool yourself: DAZ saw a good thing in PP and then proceeded to remake it in its own image. Whether or not that'll be as successful is another question for another time.

Edited to clean up coding.

This has been a very interesting read.  I've forgotten what the initial thought was, but interesting none the less...thanks to all. :blink:

byAnton,  ha ha :)

BTW Apollo in Face Room is really nice, I appreciate that feature. I have seen Bishon Apollos or whatever those girly sharp featured anime figures are called. There is a "gender" dial on the figure! I have seen a female Apollo or two. Some people tried FaceShop Pro with Apollo? I was able to use that app to give the Poser 4 Dork the M3 face... and you can do some fair work on a figures face now in Poser 7 using the Morph Tool too. I got James 6 to look smooth and pudgy with that :)

Deecey,
I too think it has merit, but I've been feeling this way for about the last year or two. Again, it's the reason why I make the figures and products I do, I like that kind genre. I think it's underutilized and neglected. I for one am stoked that Autodesk is entering this field, it shows that one of the big boys is interested.

I'm stoked too! When I first got into 3D that was one of my primary fields of interest. I got sidetracked, but now it looks like it might come full circle! I see this as a very positive and exciting move forward!

I try to support developers with purchases whenever I can given my circumstances but I have seen amazing work die in the market with resulting hard feelings, that is why I most often recommend people not /sell/ stuff they care about and instead give it away. Not because I think people should necessarily get something for nothing, though I do miss the old days of the Poser DYI and freebie culture when people just put stuff out for the "props" of being a notable, but mainly because I feel that the market /is/ oriented to Black Velvet painting and people who make real strides in realism for instance end up hurt when aside from a few afficionados the bulk of the market seems very tittie based. I kind of feel that if people /need/ income they should give the market what it seems to demand, say a cheap dial spin, a big bust, and an MR texture tarted up with a "fantasy make-up", and they  should give the work close to their heart away for the glory rather than have it spit on for costing more than $9.95... I think 90% of my income was from stuff I used not once outside of testing and promos... not once. Made it for the fun of making it but had nothing invested in the sales... just gravy to me. Really some superb stuff "fails" in this market and I have seen the bitterness that results. Not worth it IMHO unless you /really/ need the money or you really have the mousetrap that the hoi polloi is seeking. Several profound innovations have been shunted out of RMP "clearance" and some amazing stuff resides on only a half dozen hard drives because the maker didn't want to suffer the indignity of the market. There is great stuff that sells but there is great stuff that doesn't. Are there more than a couple dozen super star vendors? I always ranked in the top 25% which is a very scary thought. It takes a whole marketing and appeal orientation as well as talent and skill to be a Top Seller... there are also amazing artists/modelers doing great work who get passed by which is fine so long as they don't let it hurt their feelings. Then there are hacks and projects I have seen that were truly amazing but died in isolation because the maker couldn't bare to release them cheap to a limited market or didn't want to face the turmult or indifference of the market. I don't know if I am making sense but what do I know anyway?

Quote - byAnton,  ha ha :)

BTW Apollo in Face Room is really nice, I appreciate that feature. I have seen Bishon Apollos or whatever those girly sharp featured anime figures are called. There is a "gender" dial on the figure! I have seen a female Apollo or two.

Some people tried FaceShop Pro with Apollo? I was able to use that app to give the Poser 4 Dork the M3 face... and you can do some fair work on a figures face now in Poser 7 using the Morph Tool too. I got James 6 to look smooth and pudgy with that :)

Yes Apollo works in FaceShop Pro. But I believe you hav to do something with the materials for the mapping. Perhaps get rid of the beard material. I can't remember.

Laslo, and I spoke about Apollo and he likes the way Apollo works in FaceSHopPro. We talked about some future stuff, but that was awhile ago.

Post a thread in the CP forums about Apollo and FaceShop Pro.

I had a long reply written and decided to cut it down to this.

I feel that the market for Poser figures are geared more for the hobbyist than professionals. With people like Anton giving away such a good product in Apollo and Daz with it Studio for software people now who had an interest in 3d now can do so affordable.

Thank you!

Also thanks to all the people who do have products and freebies at all sites.

There will always be products out there that don't sell well,and products that do sell. I know, I have sold here in the past and on my website. I did not make allot but my products did sell.

Err, before we begin, I'd like to add something here: Corporations of all kinds start many, many projects that never really go anywhere... it's definitely not a sign of failure. I get to see a few where I work (R&D), and I gotta tell you, not all of them will make it to any sort of longevity. Many don't even make it past the experimental stage. So no, it is not a sign of failure when some projects go sour, die quietly, or never really get where they were intended to go.

Quote - -You guys know about that DIck VanDyke book. It is a shame that is what it ended up as instead of a TV special.

Blame the market... you have to have a TV network willing to air (and at least partially fund/sponsor) it before you can conceivably commit to building it. Otherwise you're wasting a metric ton of cash. The book OTOH (I have two signed by Mr. Van Dyke - he's a pretty cool gent) was one Hell of a success for its own intended market. The printer IIRC had to do a couple of reprints just to keep up with demand. > Quote - -The Anna Marie Goddard thing and some associated TV press never panned out a industry phenomenon. I think she posted once or a coupel times and quiety backed away from the whole thing..

A one-off, I agree. If more folks purchased it, odds are there would've been more. > Quote - -Not sure how the Ligtwave networking ever panned out.

Ask Newtek. That's where things went quiet. > Quote - -They owned that clipart site that I can;t remeber the name of.

Dunno ab't that one. > Quote - -Mimic and Bryce have sort of run their course, with the dev team not working out. Probably to divert salaries back into the company.

Bryce is still somewhat alive, but the codebase is a nightmare/wreck/disaster by today's tech (to be charitable about it). There's no way to keep it going into the future without a massive investment and a rebuild from the ground-up (sorta like Poser IMHO, in spite of the improvements made since P5). > Quote - I would love to get some of my provate Poser figures into a sim-like or second life-type enviornment. That would be so much fun. I love the idea of Apolo figures into provate worlds oppose to video games.

As someone who has done games development, let me sum it in one word: Polycount. Even the latest GeForces with all the SLI you could conceivably jam into the box wouldn't get you the horsepower required to render a typical Poserdom figure in realtime. > Quote - Yeah, I was happy but it isn't viable in 2008 with heating oil at $3.50 a gallon. My house oil bill is $950/month this winter. It is shocking.

Bleah - I'll keep my heat pump and wood stove, thanks. (And I'm adding a shitload of insulation this year... just bought the house last June). -- > Quote - But, yes, I think in an arena where a level of sexual expression is alowed, it is likely to be one of the main driving forces. It's only one of the most powerful drives in nature - so why not it have influence in one's artistic expression.

Gotcha covered... but Rendo's TOS won't let me link to Renderotica. -- > Quote - 4) Daz aren't moving away from Poser, they are just moving while Poser is not. Perhaps they could have maintained greater compatibility with existing Poser content at one time, but why should they care now? They have their own free program which, if it has one thing going for it, is at least still actively developed by people who have some idea what it should become in the future.

Exactly. -- > Quote - No competition is always bad for all but the one with the monopoly. Look at your gas bills and electrical, You have to pay them whatever they tell you to regardless of whether or not what they offer is crap or not, because they are the only source. Blame Daz? No, blame us all for not giving another a chance.

Yes and no. DAZ has no monopoly, IMHO. Sure, they have the majority, but no monopoly. I can use Terai Yuki without using a single DAZ product, no sweat. I pretty much have to build everything for it, due to lack of support, but I can use it w/o a hitch. I can use Kururu without paying a single dime - thanks to some very, very generous folks (esp. Mato, who seriously rocks IMHO). So no - no monopoly (yet... but that depends on you folks, not me. I've always liked trying and using other figures). -- > Quote - But IMHO DAZ got tired of seeing how well PP was doing and how its own AZ was falling on its face, so it decided, in its best landlord fashion, to move everything it could from PP to AZ, in the hope that it can duplicate PP's success there.

For once, we agree. -- /P

*For once, we agree.

We have several times, thank you, Ditch the attitude, huh?

Quote - >> *For once, we agree.

*We have several times, thank you, Ditch the attitude, huh?

No! Never! NEVAR!

(jeez - lighten up already, old man...)

/P

Oh, I"m sorry. Was that supposed to be a joke?

Gosh. Silly me. Look, everyone: Tom told a funny! Everyone laugh!

Now, now that nonsense is out of the way, can we return to the actual point of the thread?

As it all stands right now, it's going to take nothing less than an earthquake to shove DAZ off its pedestal. As much as I love Apollo, his release was fortuitous in the sense that DAZ clearly had no clue what M4 was going to be and had almost no interest in developing it, let alone anything in support of M3. But there was no way they were going to allow that to happen to their flagship Barbie doll, so the revisions and the news came fast and furious, not to mention the third party support. Heck, look at the recent "March Madness", which was nothing but a Parade of Dresses and a single, four year old product for M3. We were told that there were "other things being developed, but they didnt get finished in time," which sounded then and sounds now fairly lame. DAZ just has no interest in the male stuff, which allows creators like Anton to ride high. But were anyone to dare to make a quality figure in competition with Vicky version X.0, you'd see some serious marketing and probably a ton of stuff being given away to woo those customers back.

I think you have it about right, Sean.
And that "Oh oops male stuff... what have we got lying around..." afterthought was an insult considering people have been screaming for months about male stuff.
The only new one I saw lately was that bio armor which... err... yeah. I can see David go to the office in that.
There's a lot of rubbish out there, and every time we do end up with something -- well. It tends to be sub-par and an afterthought. Usually a costly afterthought, at that. 

There are many non-DAZ human figures, many of them free, some require purchase.  Personally, I like to get figures (which are not already bundled with Poser) that can be useful for my own art projects. 

Again speaking for myself, I don't feel that I must use the DAZ figures all the time.  I love MayaDoll and BJD, for example.  I also like to use Apollo Maximus, Adam 2, H.I.M.,  and Behemoth.  And there are many other free toon humanoids which are great fun to use, depending on the project.