I havent used the MilFolk once in the past five years. They always struck me as akin to painting with thick oil: difficult to move around and still looking stiff when you're finished. The sorta/kinda exception would be Hiro, but even that mesh is so poly heavy that it's tough to load, let alone maneuver... and I'm working off a fairly serious machine.

But if you notice, all the non-MilFolk stuff is bought from outside from the PAs. The things generated within DAZ are very different animals, so to speak.

Quote - Now, now that nonsense is out of the way...

...meeeeOW! Kitty want some milk? Oh - ahem - I meant... Why yes, Your Eminence... Please pardon us proletariat, eh 'guv? ;) -- > Quote - As it all stands right now, it's going to take nothing less than an earthquake to shove DAZ off its pedestal.

...or a better figure that has the same or better flexibility (in options, if not joints). > Quote - As much as I love Apollo, his release was fortuitous in the sense that DAZ clearly had no clue what M4 was going to be and had almost no interest in developing it, let alone anything in support of M3.

Err, there's a bit of backstory to the whole Apollo/Michael thing that, which, in the interests of keeping things from erupting into a shout-fest, I'll keep to myself. Suffice it to say that Apollo wasn't exactly a surprise. As for Male figures, take a peek at Vicky 4.2's morph dials sometime... lots of male names in there. They tried this with a Vicky 3 Male morph (which IMHO was pretty good, though not perfect), but never really went anywhere with it and opted for M3 instead. I think this time they're going to just have one mesh, two genders. Or maybe not. If they don't, no big... other folks make male figures. > Quote - But were anyone to dare to make a quality figure in competition with Vicky version X.0, you'd see some serious marketing and probably a ton of stuff being given away to woo those customers back.

...like how Microsoft came out with Internet Explorer 7 after Firefox began eating away at IE's market share. Or how Intel came out with the Core series of CPU's after they saw AMD dominating with Opteron. Or how DAZ built Aiko 3 after seeing Anime Doll (and similar models) swallow some serious attention back in the day. Companies do that sometimes - it's the nature of the beast, and IMHO what makes competition a good thing. If there's a big enough male market, DAZ (and anyone else) would've come out with a new male figure by now. As it is, let's face it - the male-figure market ain't really big enough to bother with new bits and bobs... No emotion in saying it, just stating what's known. Infinity10 hit it dead-on when s/he(?) wrote: > Quote - Personally, I like to get figures (which are not already bundled with Poser) that can be useful for my own art projects.

...and that's what it all boils down to. Loyalty stops cold when there's a project afoot, and it doesn't matter which company or individual supplies the mesh. As it should be. /P

One thing I can add.
Selling Poser content has made me develop my 3d modelling/uvmapping/texturing/etc skills exponentially. IMHO, it is not just a "sword and temple" thing. A product will not be successful in the long run if it is not done "right". For figures, you have to compete against Apollo (which is free!). For hair, against Kozaburo (which most are free!). On clothing, for example, against aery soul (some free, some not). Etc etc.
So while I do relish the supplemental income selling Poser thingies has given me, I value more the improvement on my skills it has given me.
Probably, if you want to get rich, as a merchant, make a very high quality product for a very popular figure. Market rules.
I like to support the figures I like. Maybe I won't get rich. But I can be proud of doing what I like. And getting paid for it. And if I feel like it, release something for free just because I'm in the mood.

Don't make me post cat pictures.  You don't want that.

Maybe YOU can't....

I can! :P

dang I've been pre-emptive cat picture'd!!

Why yes, Your Eminence... Please pardon us proletariat, eh 'guv? ;)

Tom, when you have a moment, get over yourself, huh? I'm not interested in your silly "jokes", okay? They're lame and idiotic, and I sorta thought you might have outgrown them. Apparently not.

Moving on to people with actual things to say...

Probably, if you want to get rich, as a merchant, make a very high quality product for a very popular figure. Market rules.

I'm not so sure. There are some merchants out there, like LittleFox, who model strictly to please themselves and have still developed self-standing lines that have been very, very successful. That suggests that you can go in one of two directions: either follow a successful character's lead or build one on your own, but do it in such an original way that the market responds.

Careful. One Lolcat usually begets another!

Guys, if you want to feed the troll, be my guest.

Quote - I'm not so sure. There are some merchants out there, like LittleFox, who model strictly to please themselves and have still developed self-standing lines that have been very, very successful. That suggests that you can go in one of two directions: either follow a successful character's lead or build one on your own, but do it in such an original way that the market responds.

Quite true on LittleFox . Sadly, I don't think  this repeating too often. But let's hope it does. Subvariations of swords and temples can only go so far.

Tom,

First, most sentences you end with "I'll keep to myselff", which is always funny since you keep nothing to yourself if you can brag about it, usually means you are fishing for something; usually a reaction rather than information since you are seldom interested in anything as boring as information.

Second, I can't imagine what backstory there would be. I never worked on m3. That work was kept internally to the in-house dev team. Michael Lane and I both urged them to let us handle it for the, but Cris wanted it kept internally. We had no problems with that. And I started on Apollo after I left Daz and declined a new contract.

Third, only one person in all of Poserdom knew of Apollo, and that was Laurie Stanley (LaurieS), who yes is a long part of the Platinum Club, whom I brought on board. Laurie and I stayed in touch for some time afterwards.

Now whether or not you are insinuating that Laurie, the only person ever told of Apollo, shared this fact with Daz. Well, I would assume she did. I doesn't bother me if she showed renders, since that is all she ever had. It wou;dn't even suprise me, now that I think of it. I suppose I would have expected it.

But I think it sort of childish, all these years later, to still be trying to stir up intriques. I really don't even see how your reply is relevant to Sean's comment you quoted other than being a vehicle for you.

If you were truly going to keep it to yourself, whatever "it" was, then you wouldn't have said anything. But that wasn't the point was it? sigh Just sad, but again, not unexpected. lol

Why are you not as honest whith your intentions here at Rendo as you post elswhere?

Moving to the positive side of things...

Anton, you once spoke (IIRC) of doing a female counterpart for Apollo. Given the quality in that model, I can only imagine what the reaction would be were you to follow through with... Aphrodite? :-)

Have you given that any thought? You know the fan base would be salivating, and if anything were to give DAZ a run, it would be that.

I want to reply to this. I'll pop right back in a minute.

Quote - Moving to the positive side of things...

Anton, you once spoke (IIRC) of doing a female counterpart for Apollo. Given the quality in that model, I can only imagine what the reaction would be were you to follow through with... Aphrodite? :-)

Have you given that any thought? You know the fan base would be salivating, and if anything were to give DAZ a run, it would be that.

Sorry bout that. I had to run upstairs.

Sean, I agree there would be a reaction. Have I given it though? Yes. Of course. :)

The problem is people don't want me to give Daz a run. They want me to show Daz how to improve their females. I learned that lesson with Apollo. V4 is so similar to Apollo in many ways, it will be interesting to see how M4 is not similar to Apollo.

I am one person. They are a company with legions of merchants who can quickly recreate, immitate, and reproduce anything I do for a female figure.

Right now I have no plans on doing one. I created Apollo as a non-bias alternative to the community, a quailty male for the gay community, and something everyone had always asked for. And for it, I got trolled, my WIP threads moved (yet recent ones by others aren't), immitated, insulted, with little more than a "well that's just healthy competition". And mostly from the very people I made Apollo for.

Apollo, 3 years later, still stands strong because of the quality people speak of. But that quality took over 6 months of devoted effor. Many people have been ever supportive of Apollo publically and privately; but mostly only when he became free.

I just don't know why, after everything that happened with Apollo, I would do another figure.

I will say, the vicousness in the gay community from those who begged for a male figure equal to any female, was the only thing that hurt my feelings. It was then I realized most people want Daz to make their figures; or me to show them how.

Speaking of a thriving industry.

Anyone see that they are closing Product Showcase to anything outside Rendo.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2734970
I like the "But if you want to sell here at Rendo.." part. And of course the thread is locked.

Didn't  product showcase start when they they forbid any commercial posts in the Poser forum. That was, of course, before the ban on freebie posts.

I wonder how long before that freebie forum is closed. Perhaps that will boost sales too.

Hey how about banning non-Rendo site ads in signatures next?

Sad. sad. sad.

It's not surprising, given what's happened at CP vis-a-vis Rendo and RDNA. It's all segmenting, based (as usual) on the marketplaces. There really isnt much of a community anymore, just merchants and buyers.

God bless our merchant-driven websites, every one... ;)

The problem is people don't want me to give Daz a run.

I did have to laugh at that a bit, only because... well, face it, Anton: after all these years in the supposed community, do relative old Poser timers like you and me really give a rat's tuchus what "people" do or do not want? :-) My favourite mesh is five years old this month. I could care less about the latest incarnation of Vicky and her Magic Morphing Sisters.

I'd say, go for it. And then watch your back... a lot. IMHO, you could create one heckuva magnificent model for the ladies. And the crowd would go wild.

my 12 oz. curls caught up with me: sorry, posted when I shouldn't have...
ignore the man leaving the room

Quote - It's not surprising, given what's happened at CP vis-a-vis Rendo and RDNA. It's all segmenting, based (as usual) on the marketplaces. There really isnt much of a community anymore, just merchants and buyers.

God bless our merchant-driven websites, every one... ;)

The problem is people don't want me to give Daz a run.

I did have to laugh at that a bit, only because... well, face it, Anton: after all these years in the supposed community, do relative old Poser timers like you and me really give a rat's tuchus what "people" do or do not want? :-) My favourite mesh is five years old this month. I could care less about the latest incarnation of Vicky and her Magic Morphing Sisters.

I'd say, go for it. And then watch your back... a lot. IMHO, you could create one heckuva magnificent model for the ladies. And the crowd would go wild.

Yup, I'd LOVE to see this too.  Apollina or Apollonia or what-have-you.  Near the final states get some decent merchants/freebie makers to beta for you.... Then they'll know how to effectively support the figure right from the start.  From there you could extend it out a bit and have the female gain concerted support at release time (or shortly after) to deflect or match a "Crazy-Eddies" sale campaign by DAZ or anyone else, spurred by the release of her.

I'd be more than willing to assist in this an I could pull in at least one very decent texturer and modeler in addition to myself.  I'm talking a campaign of freebies and products.

I'm very ready to use a new female figure with those perfect touches... without a zillion embedded deformers and thousands of external morph calls - It's just too much in my book.

I think that's why I've just been in limbo for a while.  I get ready to design something for some of these magnet and dial monsters and think.. ugh.  So I fall back on my toon work, heh.  Which is not-quite-but-almost put me on the street.  A few good sales have keep me off the curb thus far.  It's the happiest sight I see when I get some stats back, from sales or whatnot, and see that folks are actually buying my toon figures :)  I just want people to enjoy them and see what's there beyond the "box view".

Again I'm ready for some exciting changes and I think a lot of folks are.  There was a lot of excitement with the pre-4 victorias and with Aiko 3 but ... eh... Doesn't seem to have the same feel of wonder or WOW! a figure release had.  It's more of an ...oh.  As in, oh... A new batch thingy to run after a merchant deciphers (or wants to deal with) the new injection "system",  or oh... There's so many magnets baked into the figure, along with high density that it putters along the screen after you've loaded a few accessories.  or... oh... Can't install out of the main Poser 7 runtime because there are so many external readscript calls that Poser goes bonkers.

To me, it just comes off pretty clunky.  No offense to V4 lovers and I do "try" to use the figure and develop at least some things for her.

I've blabbed long enough.

Quote - Speaking of a thriving industry.

Anyone see that they are closing Product Showcase to anything outside Rendo.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2734970
I like the "But if you want to sell here at Rendo.." part. And of course the thread is locked.

Didn't  product showcase start when they they forbid any commercial posts in the Poser forum. That was, of course, before the ban on freebie posts.

I wonder how long before that freebie forum is closed. Perhaps that will boost sales too.

Hey how about banning non-Rendo site ads in signatures next?

Sad. sad. sad.

I wholly agree.  I saw that coming a long time ago.  Be care of too much internalization, Renderosity, it's practically killed some sites.  "Pulling it all in" might keep people out.

very interesting thread. Sean i love ya.. and i used to think very highly of you. But... There is alot of just Deadwrongness in your posts in this thread. Things they are 100% completly wrong and seeing you say them makes me sad to be honest.

Quote - Anyone see that they are closing Product Showcase to anything outside Rendo. http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2734970 I like the "But if you want to sell here at Rendo.." part. And of course the thread is locked. Didn't product showcase start when they they forbid any commercial posts in the Poser forum. That was, of course, before the ban on freebie posts.

This is merely part of a larger trend. The PTB can say what they will, but the CP and Rendo cutting ties, now this... see the pattern yet? -- > Quote - I'd say, go for it. And then watch your back... a lot. IMHO, you could create one heckuva magnificent model for the ladies. And the crowd would go wild.

Maybe, maybe not. Many have tried, many have failed. Brandenburg tried the hardest when he literally (as CEO of Zygote) 'open-sourced' the (albeit unrigged) Posette mesh. Of course, he specifically did that with the intent of bringing DAZ it's knees (accrding to one rumored quote). His failure was that he underestimated the willingness of the larger community to bother with refining and re-rigging an ancient (popular, but ancient) mesh. Even Daz has a hard time introducing new female figures that last very long. During the big fat 'toon craze a few years back, Girl was introduced... it had no real longevity. Neftis' Neftoon Gal was rock-solid for its time, but fell by the wayside quickly (a pity, too). Alexis made a splash @ 3DCommune, but waned long before the mesh ripoff scandal. As far as non 'toon figures? There have been a few. None have really took off. Anime figures? IMHO the best-of-breed for pure Anime appearances have been three: Yuki (a morph/mesh for Vicky1/2 that you had to pretty much assemble yourself), Kururu (in spite of her horrific bending troubles - one hell of a stand-alone anime figure), and Nanana (for V4 - same assembly required as for Yuki). Aiko 3 can do it with enough work (or the XinXin and BelBel packages), but can't touch the first three. In spite of their asthetic superiority in anime, I'm willing to wager that few-to-none reading this have heard of Yuki, Kururu, or Nanana, let alone know that they're free, letting alone still where to get them. More on that in a second... Now - would a female Apollo do well? Dunno... depends on how flexible the mesh was for morphing, and how well the hyper-ERC rigging that Apollo has does for bending in a female mesh. IMHO, if Poser/D|S used internal skeletal rigging instead of joints, most of this would all be moot point and the focus would be on morphing... but, one can only wish, eh? As far as [i]how[/i] to do it? Netherworks put it best: > Quote - Yup, I'd LOVE to see this too. Apollina or Apollonia or what-have-you. Near the final states get some decent merchants/freebie makers to beta for you.... Then they'll know how to effectively support the figure right from the start. From there you could extend it out a bit and have the female gain concerted support at release time (or shortly after) to deflect or match a "Crazy-Eddies" sale campaign by DAZ or anyone else, spurred by the release of her.

That would be Anton's best shot at getting it off the ground, assuming it had a chance (and if Apollo is any indication, it has one). Renderosity is about the only big store left that he could sell it at (I'm not saying why), but I'm sure they would accept it. The other thing to keep in mind is --be it for sale or for free-- to pay attention to marketing BEYOND the Poser forums. DAZ and Poser's names have a reach way the hell beyond this little incestuous world that we type the occasional line of prose to. I can go to any generic graphics house, say "Apollo", and nearly everyone there would reply with "???" Mention DAZ or Poser, and most would know right away what I'm talking about. No kick against Apollo the mesh, but that's just the way it is. The folks who post here represent only a microscopic fraction of the user base... if you want to overshadow DAZ or Poser's reach, you gotta reach the ones who don't read here, let alone post here. -- As for the rest... > Quote - First, most sentences you end with "I'll keep to myselff", which is always funny since you keep nothing to yourself if you can brag about it,

Whatever, dude - I intend to keep the peace; and two-year-old screenshots on unrelated subjects mean nada here. Suffice it to say that there was more that went on than what's being posted ( I'll kindly not comment on what's missing), and we'll leave it at that, 'kay? -- Sean - Neo10 says it all for me, both technically and otherwise. -- /P

Toon wise... here it is for me at least. I made some money doing commercial work with toons but I  used Shazam (the bobble head V2) for both male and female characters. It had a sophisticated and adult look and was morphable enough to make very destinct characters in a single scene. Even Posette and Dork modified for big hands&feet and the bobble head worked. The problem with the specifically toon figures such as The GIRL and HER was that although the expression morphs were superior to those on standard figures the base mesh and they were certainly pretty/sexy, they were too "recognizable" and it was hard to make them my own. Also, I found I almost always needed the figures dressed in variantions of Real World as opposed to Fantasy costume. I was no longer doing that sort of work when AikoToon came out, that figure has great expressions and probably would have been excelent for the job. The other toons although fun are were just not suitable for commercial work where the figures had to not look like "other artist's work".

very interesting thread. Sean i love ya.. and i used to think very highly of you. But... There is alot of just Deadwrongness in your posts in this thread. Things they are 100% completly wrong and seeing you say them makes me sad to be honest.

Neo, that's all well and good, but tell me what they are. We're not a bunch of merchants and buyers? You'd have to be blind not to see that. Anton coldnt make a kick-ass female model? Of course he could. Vickie isnt poly heavy? The numbers are there. So where am I wrong> Just saying I'm 100% wrong isnt giving me any information.

Sean - Neo10 says it all for me, both technically and otherwise.

Your privilege, bud. But I'll say the same thing to you: show me where I'm wrong. Dont just sit there in judgment. And to be blunt, troll, your opening little "joke" just demonstrates that you dont reallty give a rat's ass about what I write. You just want the opportunity to take a cheap shot, like you always have. That's honesty. Deal with it.

Quote - In spite of their asthetic superiority in anime, I'm willing to wager that few-to-none reading this have heard of Yuki, Kururu, or Nanana, let alone know that they're free, letting alone still where to get them. More on that in a second...

Yuki is great and Kururu is a very well put together simple figure that is starting to catch on. There are tons of stuff out there for her and I will be releasing a few freebies for her soon as soon as I get modeling software working again (Damn you microsucks for them updates!)
Another under mentioned figure is Maya Doll (free also). She has her quirks but works well.

Quote - The other thing to keep in mind is --be it for sale or for free-- to pay attention to marketing BEYOND the Poser forums. DAZ and Poser's names have a reach way the hell beyond this little incestuous world that we type the occasional line of prose to. I can go to any generic graphics house, say "Apollo", and nearly everyone there would reply with "???" Mention DAZ or Poser, and most would know right away what I'm talking about.

Beg to differ!

I work with several here  in  NY as a network consultant.  You say Poser and you would get laughed at. Most of the guys/gals there don't take poser all too seriously because it lacks what most of them need, POWER. They could give a flying rats--- about which figure you use or how you use the program. See to them Poser is a child's toy that is played with not as a functional graphics program.

You say Poser and you would get laughed at.

... by people who probably dont even know what it's capable of right now. They probably think we're still in version 4 and no doubt think what's in the "galleries" and marketplaces is the status quo -- which it might be, but, as with everything else, there are those who are pushing the limits and succeeding quite nicely.

But the only way they're ever gonna figure that out is by descending from their ivory towers and seeing for themselves, hands on, not judging it by the T&A fest it might usually be.

Quote -
But the only way they're ever gonna figure that out is by descending from their ivory towers and seeing for themselves, hands on, not judging it by the T&A fest it might usually be.

From that statement alone:

These render houses/graphics companies look at several things and the best way too do it. Which in truth is not Poser, cause it would take too long to render anything in Poser or Daz Studio, Poser is limited in what functions that actually work.

Most of the companies I have done business with will use Max or Lightwave or an in house software due to the abilities of the programs are not limited to posing a figure and rendering.

Face the facts Poser has very limited abilities and that there are much better pieces of software that can do what Poser does and can do it better and faster.

Quote - >> You say Poser and you would get laughed at.

... by people who probably dont even know what it's capable of right now. They probably think we're still in version 4 and no doubt think what's in the "galleries" and marketplaces is the status quo -- which it might be, but, as with everything else, there are those who are pushing the limits and succeeding quite nicely.

But the only way they're ever gonna figure that out is by descending from their ivory towers and seeing for themselves, hands on, not judging it by the T&A fest it might usually be.

People whom work hard to suceed and bring their quality up to the high end seldom have the time to dig through a humongous pile of T&A, and see an occasional quality piece.

Has nothing to do about 'ivory towers' and everything to do with being smart and taking care of things that are within your responsibilities and sphere of influence.

With the exception of an occasional immature elitist with a little bot of talent and no social skills. (every community has them)

Quote - Most of the companies I have done business with will use Max or Lightwave or an in house software due to the abilities of the programs are not limited to posing a figure and rendering.

Poser isn't limited to posing and rendering. Last I looked you could animate, rig and morph in it too.
It has node support as well.

But I do agree that it has - compared to the "big guys" - limited capability.
However, it's also comparing apples and oranges when you put Max or Lightwave up against Poser. Not to mention it's grossly unfair.
For one thing, those packages are high end 3D modellingpackages. Poser is not. Nor is D|S. They are both entirely different software programs. If you wanted to compare Max and Lightwave to something similar, then I'd say you need to compare it to something like Hexagon.

And I've seen "Maya creations" that were very obviously V3 pulled into Maya, posed and rendered.
So how is that different from Poser? Just because it was rendered in Maya, doesn't mean it was created - from the ground up - in Maya. Just because someone can afford Maya/Max/Lightwave doesn't mean they are good at it. I could render something in Max (if I had it lol), no problem. Would that mean I'm better than someone using Poser?
And lets face it, about half the people out there who use them and often look down on Poser users, don't actually own legitimate copies of those  - very expensive - programs.

It's time people faced a simple truth - any (ANY!) software package is only as good as the person using it. If I can't light a scene, then no amount of capability in Maya/Max is going to improve my image, while at the same time, someone in Poser who gets around the limitations, can produce some absolutely stunningly lit images.

People whom work hard to suceed and bring their quality up to the high end seldom have the time to dig through a humongous pile of T&A, and see an occasional quality piece.

True. That's why there are a few artists I look for -- many of whom dont even post around here anymore -- because they're the ones who're making this stuff sing like a Met soprano.

Does Poser have limits? Sure it does. Does that mean it's of limited use? Only if you see it that way. Just for myself, the whole "Poser vs real 3D" argument is a fool's engagement. If you're good in Poser, great. If you're good in Maya, wonderful. If you're good in both, huzzah and hurrah.

Moving on...

It's a program, not a god.
Same goes for any other program, as well as the people that use them.

Quote - It's a program, not a god.
Same goes for any other program, as well as the people that use them.

Hey naw... don't ya be dissing my most fave program!  snort  or, or.... I'm gonna pulverize yer facets!!!
....................................................[ducking and running]-------------------------------->

Quote - > Quote - It's a program, not a god.

Same goes for any other program, as well as the people that use them.

Hey naw... don't ya be dissing my most fave program!  snort  or, or.... I'm gonna pulverize yer facets!!!
....................................................[ducking and running]-------------------------------->

You going to detach my polys?
Send someone around to break my verts?:tt2:

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - It's a program, not a god.

Same goes for any other program, as well as the people that use them.

Hey naw... don't ya be dissing my most fave program!  snort  or, or.... I'm gonna pulverize yer facets!!!
....................................................[ducking and running]-------------------------------->

You going to detach my polys?
Send someone around to break my verts?:tt2:

Well, I dont' mean you personally...
We could tessalate someothing into pieces :lol:

Quote - ...Well, I dont' mean you personally...
We could tessalate someothing into pieces :lol:

Sounds painfull!!!

Quote -
I work with several here  in  NY as a network consultant.  You say Poser and you would get laughed at. Most of the guys/gals there don't take poser all too seriously because it lacks what most of them need, POWER. They could give a flying rats--- about which figure you use or how you use the program. See to them Poser is a child's toy that is played with not as a functional graphics program.

Fair enough opinion-wise, but they have heard of it, yes? I'm willing to bet that many who happily scoff at Poser also have a copy of it lurking on a machine somewhere in their shop. I have yet to walk into a Graphics shop (including the one here) that doesn't ... but that's a tangent that's been wrestled with for a very long time now. :)

The point still stands... the names "Poser" (and to a slightly lesser extent, "DAZ") are out there. They are known. If Apollo's hypothetical female figure wants that kind of success, it has to do the same.

--

Quote - But I'll say the same thing to you: show me where I'm wrong.

He was referring to your analysis of DAZ, I believe.

--

/P

Quote -
But the only way they're ever gonna figure that out is by descending from their ivory towers and seeing for themselves, hands on, not judging it by the T&A fest it might usually be.

From what I've seen and heard, most real pros already have - my first day here @ Big Faceless Corp showed me a cubicle down the way from my office with a couple of Poser 7 magazine-style adverts stuck up to the wall. This is a place that will happily shell out $4k for a head... sure, a head that has a level of detail only slightly higher than Vicky 4's (and a UV Map, Normals Map, and a base texture), but just a head nonetheless. Poser comes in handy sometimes...

Incidentally, "T&A" my dear friend is what sells. I don't even have to look into 3D/CG to prove that one... I have only to point at the last television commercial break, or the nearest magazine rack at the supermarket checkout stand. Every industry is soaked to the gills is sex when it comes to the artwork (even electronics' booths at trade shows, which is kinda creepy, but...)

Nature of the beast, and all that.

Truth is, if the T&A is done well, what's the problem? (Not saying Rendo is the place to find that first-up, but...)

/P

>> "T&A" my dear friend is what sells

Of course it does, Tom. As usual, that's not the point, is it. The point being made is that Poser is pigeon holed because of our localized obsession with T&A, more so than any other 3D program out there, not because of the inherent quality of the program itself.

There is a difference.

>>  He was referring to your analysis of DAZ, I believe.

Funny how nobody seemed to reference that -- instead "Sean's 100% wrong in this thread!!!", followed by "Yeah, what he said!!", which covers a lot of ground. Were that analysis the sole thing I'd written, you might have a point. But as it wasnt... well, hate to say it, but get over it, guys. If you're gonna slam me, at least be honest about it.

And I stand by that analysis, because history is my guide. If anyone wishes to dispute that, be my guest. Frankly, it doesnt matter, because DAZ will always have cheerleaders as well as detractors. Big whoop.

Don't make me reach in and separate you two!!!

It's just Tom being a troll. Ignore him. Eventually he'll get bored and move on to something else where he can stir up problems.

Quote - It's just Tom being a troll. Ignore him. Eventually he'll get bored and move on to something else where he can stir up problems.

Kitty peers at Sean, folds her arms and taps her foot.....   

No pointing fingers at each other!
....or I'll have to make you kiss and make up!

Quote - >> "T&A" my dear friend is what sells

Of course it does, Tom. As usual, that's not the point, is it. The point being made is that Poser is pigeon holed because of our localized obsession with T&A, more so than any other 3D program out there, not because of the inherent quality of the program itself.

Err, no.

The reason most 3D apps have a dearth of T&A is because you have to build your own figures in them first - you don't get any pre-provided (you can buy them, or get hold of a free-but-lo-as-hell-poly one, but...)

Aaaaand, in spite of the time and skill required to build a complete figure in most 3d apps, CGTalk (ferinstance) has more than its ration of T&A when it comes to rendered human figures.

Also, consider that Poser is primarily for... humanoid figures. well, duh - it's gonna have a lot of T&A in it.

"our localized obsession" is nothing more "localized" than the rest of the Human Race.

/P

Quote - Penuinisto wrote: *Now - would a female Apollo do well? Dunno... depends on how flexible the mesh was for morphing, and how well the hyper-ERC rigging that Apollo has does for bending in a female mesh.

Tom , You are again mistaken. Apollo does not use any erc for posing. And certainly no "hyper ERC".  You have said this before and this has been pointed out before.

Hey thanks Netherworks. I deeply appreciate that.

Quote -
Apollo does not use any erc for posing. And certainly no "hyper ERC".  You have said this before and this has been pointed out before.

If You Say So.

/P

The reason most 3D apps have a dearth of T&A is because you have to build your own figures in them first

LOL -- and? C'mon, you're a bright boy. You can figure it out.

Quote - >> The reason most 3D apps have a dearth of T&A is because you have to build your own figures in them first

LOL -- and? C'mon, you're a bright boy. You can figure it out.

No need to backpedal, Sean... it's not life or death, merely a difference of opinion. Fact still stands that feminine humanoid "T&A" is just as prevalent elsewhere as it is in Poser. It's a Human trait, not a "Poser User" trait. Some places specialize in it (not just R'otica - though this joint's TOS prevents me from posting some examples, or even their URL's), and makes no notice about which 3D app pulled it together. Other places (e.g. CGTalk) show it off (albeit minus the blatant sex) more often than not when it comes to humanoid female-looking figures. I know it's always been a peeve of yours to point at Poserdom and shout "you're obsessed with boobies!" (to paraphrase extremely heavily), and hey - as far as CG nudity in general (not just Poser), I agree with you - we're an industry dominated by straight guys... sorry about that. OTOH, unlike yourself (who understandably doesn't have any liking for it), I'm not bothered by it. I'm also not bothered by male beefcake, esp. if it's done right and executed well - good art is good art. Problem is, relatively few people actually bother with the male figure in that way - be it in Poserdom or elsewhere. That said, there are a few places and folks out there who do specialize in showing off the guys - you just have to know where to look (again, the stupid TOS... though I can speak at least for R'otica when I say that there are more than a handful of seriously powerful artists there who specialize in male-only erotica and pinups). Meanwhile, be it your perception or mine that prevails, we happen to inhabit a rather wonderful medium that gives us both the tools and opportunity to rectify whatever it is we perceive. If you think that nasty ol' Poser is just a tool for hetero male hormones, then erect a site where that kind of imagery doesn't shine through. If I think there's not enough of it about, then I can... oh, wait - I'm already doing something about that - for all genders (including some that can only be imagined). /P

SeanMartin, Penguinisto... cut it out you guys. Seriously. You can fuss with each other by site mail.

I think it is polite to address side comments directly to individuals in a thread only to a point... once it becomes a personal discussion you should switch to site mail... or who knows? Maybe chat would be even more fun :)  Still, it is a reasonable expectation of people for them not to insult each other in the public forums. Innuendo is more offensive than direct comments I think BTW. Let's clean up our act before the parents have to get involved!

unlike yourself (who understandably doesn't have any liking for it)

My. How presumptuous.

I think it is polite to address side comments directly to individuals in a thread only to a point.

I happen to agree, but our little troll here needs to be reminded that time has indeed passed and, unlike him,  people have indeed changed. And perhaps he needs to be reminded of that in a public way so he's not inflicting it on everyone else... as he did with Anton in another thread with innuendo about Apollo that was written strictly to make Anton look bad.

If Tom wishes to continue acting like a troll -- to anyone -- I have no problem whatsoever calling him on it. Frankly, the little twit seems to want to pick up with the same tedious and childish arguments from, now, two years ago, and it's silly and unnecessary. But I see no reason whatsoever to have myself slammed by someone as apparently clueless (not to mention homophobic) as he has clearly proven himself to be.

Bottom line: some of us have moved on. Pity that cant be said for him... and I say that as directly as need be.

Quote - SeanMartin, Penguinisto... cut it out you guys. Seriously. You can fuss with each other by site mail.

Not fussing from here, promise.

I apologize, Sean, if your attitude towards the nude female figure has changed.

Also, I'm (at least on my end) keeping it away from the personal, and just remaining within the realm of spirited debate. I refuse to stoop to insult and childish name-calling (and have easily done so thus far...)

If Sean wishes to react as he does, that's his prerogative. I can continue to stick to the salient points and ignore the rest.

/P

>> I apologize, Sean, if your attitude towards the nude female figure has changed.

I'll consider it. It all depends on you, bud. Pull another one of your little cheap shot "jokes", and I'll know exactly the spirit in which this "apology" was given.