Hey, how about all those Rosity banner ads other sites (that use to be able to post here) have on their websites advertising for Rosity? Wonder how many of those are going to disappear.

I meant what other sites, or did i get the wrong end of the stick?........Steve

>> Renderosity is mostly add-on for content core items sold/available elsewhere.

And there is the core problem with this policy. Heck, all of your Poser forum banners are using character meshes from otheir sites -- in all honesty, dont you think the folks from those other sites might think in retalitary terms and forbid you from using those banners as in-house ads for yourself? How long do you think merchants here would stay if DAZ issued a policy forbidding any reference to their product elsewhere than in their own fora?

The Walmart/Woolworths example might hold water if I didnt have the ability to open the first page of the Marketplace here and see nothing but V4 in various incarnations. You already are advertising products from other sites, because you have no choice but to.

Until someone here develops the base figures that will seriously compete with the DAZ line, you guys are at their mercy. From a business standpoint alone, it makes sense to rescind this policy now before you get too entrenched in it and cant pull it down.

Quote - >> Renderosity is mostly add-on for content core items sold/available elsewhere.

And there is the core problem with this policy. Heck, all of your Poser forum banners are using character meshes from otheir sites -- in all honesty, dont you think the folks from those other sites might think in retalitary terms and forbid you from using those banners as in-house ads for yourself? How long do you think merchants here would stay if DAZ issued a policy forbidding any reference to their product elsewhere than in their own fora?

Hey Sean, that's a very good point.

Quote - > Quote - >> Renderosity is mostly add-on for content core items sold/available elsewhere.

And there is the core problem with this policy. Heck, all of your Poser forum banners are using character meshes from otheir sites -- in all honesty, dont you think the folks from those other sites might think in retalitary terms and forbid you from using those banners as in-house ads for yourself? How long do you think merchants here would stay if DAZ issued a policy forbidding any reference to their product elsewhere than in their own fora?

Hey Sean, that's a very good point.

Just amplifying what Anton already said.

What large offsite stores ban outside adverts?

RDNA - No offsite advertisement, period.

DAZ - No more than 1 advertisement per week, threads can (and are) removed at staff discretion even if they are only one advertisement per week

Content Paradise doesn't even have a place where offsite vendors can advertise.

The simple fact is this...if you go in there now, and look at all of the posts in there from before the policy change (many of which are STILL on the front page, so you don't have to dig far), a lot of them are advertising product from those 3 sites. 

As for the community aspect...

Our local Borders store is pretty awesome when it comes to being a place to sit, meet people, have a conversation, talk about your favorite book, have a coffee, even host a meeting for your group (3 local pagan groups, a women's book club, a father's rights group, and many college groups meet there on a regular basis, for free if they don't advertise, for a small charge if they'd like to put up advertisements and/or sponsor a coupon for new members).  However, I doubt, even as community minded as they are, they'd let Barnes & Noble advertise at their store.  And I highly doubt they'd let authors advertise at their store that "Hey, I have this book, I'm selling it at Borders and at Barnes & Noble.  It's $10.99 at Borders and $8.99 at B&N."  And I'm pretty sure that "I have a book that's exclusive to B&N, check it out!" wouldn't fly.

In a way, a lot of the offsite advertisement was really taking advantage of the site, and not in a good way.  Obviously, like any business, we want you folk to stay here to do your shopping.  It keeps the lights on.  It keeps the forums and the galleries going.  Pays the bills.  If people don't shop here, this site no longer exists, unless some of y'all want to just throw money at us for no apparent reason (welcome, obviously, but, unnecessary while we have a store.  We'd rather earn it than just take it).  Using site bandwidth to steer people to other sites is a huge loss-leader.  If you'll look at the posts in the Marketplace Showcase, with the older posts, not many of them were going to smaller stores.  They were almost all going to either DAZ, CP, or RDNA. 

In our view, this is more of the fact that it's not fair to our merchants.  Merchants here pay a percentage to the store for hosting and advertising.  When offsite stores and merchants are able to do so for free, it really hurts THEM.  Especially the non-exclusive and not top 50 merchants, who have lower exposure anyway.  Not everyone can be top 50, because there are only 50 slots ;). 

In the end, yeah, there are ways you can advertise on Renderosity without violating the TOS.  Email marketing@Renderosity.com, and purchase ad space.  Our merchants here pay for their advertising out of the cut they pay to Renderosity.  It's only fair that offsite merchants pay for their advertising, too.

Jeni

So is there now (or shortly to be) a new policy on linking off-site items in response to queries in the forums ?

If it's not an advertisement, you're golden.

If someone says "Hey, I see a gadjillion V4 renders in the gallery, and I can't find it here, where do I find it?" of course you can tell them where.  If someone says "Hey, where can I find barbarian-style weapons?", you can list all the packs you can find in our MP, RDNA, DAZ, CP, and any other little store you can find.  **Even if you made it. **

What you can't do is post advertisements.

Are there going to be dishonest merchants who take advantage of that?  Absolutely, I'm counting on it.  Why?  Because there are dishonest people.  Are we hawk-eyed, and on the ready for it to happen from every merchant ever?  No, because, on the whole, people are honest, and not looking to be jerks just for the sake of the almighty dollar.  Is there going to be public persecution for it?  We thought about letting Karen publicly spank the offenders and posting it on YouTube, but we figured that the videos would get pulled (totally kidding about that last one).

Let me just say something here, off the top of my head.

The great thing about "Can you help me find this" threads are that at least 1/2 the answers contain links to freebies that, sometimes, are of more superior quality than the for-pay items.  In my opinion, that is a push to demand quality from merchants, here and elsewhere.  Light sets, props, hairs, textures.....members here know where to find things, and there is an insane variety in the things that are found by members.  Some people have the few people they'll download/buy from, some people do a TON of research before settling on one thing, and that's a great thing.  We view reviews from members, both on products here and elsewhere, on items to be important.  IMHO, it's important for merchants to not just sell product, but also be a part of the community....participate in the forums, share the knowledge, look at what's wanted/needed, work on awesome ideas with members, etc.  But, that's just an aside.  We can't force merchants to come play on the forums any more than we can force an elephant into a toothpaste tube. 

Attached Link: Content Creator's Guild

> Quote - > Quote - Since the thread was locked, I will ask here.... > > > > If I create an image using primarily figures that we've created, am I allowed to post here still ?  Obviously not in the MarketPlace Gallery, but I've had images moved before that weren't promo images and they were moved to the (what was) Product Showcase Gallery..... > > > > Thanks, > > Rebekah > > > > Prior to this change anyone with a store anywhere was allowed to post in the "Product Showcase Forum" and "Product Showcase Gallery" advertising their wares.  > > Now by the looks of that announcement you linked to, only Renderosity Merchants and their Renderosity MP products are allowed to be advertised in those areas. > > Anyone who doesn't have a store here at Renderosity can no longer post a link to their store advertising their new products or product sales, or indicate that their product is sold someplace else. > > Basically Renderosity has taken on a "Renderosity MP" exclusive policy when it comes to product advertising.  Which means that those who do not sell in the Renderosity MP, can no longer post about their products sold in other stores on the Renderosity website, because the only 2 places where it was allowed no longer permits it.

This is one of the reasons why a few of us content creators got together to start Content Creator's Guild at http://www.contentcreatorsguild.net. This isnt affiliated with a brokerage - not intended to be a brokerage. You can post your releases on CCG freely.

The Borders and bookstore Wal-Mart analogies might make sense if it weren't for the fact that their competitors are selling the exact same products that they are.  I can buy the same book at Barnes and Noble as I can at Borders, so of course they won't advertise for each other.

However, your so called competitors are selling things that we can't buy here!  So, the product showcase provided a valuable SERVICE to your customers by giving us a "one stop shop" to find things available here as well as things that ABSOLUTELY CAN'T be purchased here (99% of the time anyway).  This is analogous to stores that have a bulletin board up near the front where businesses can put their cards or flyers advertising their products or services that are somehow related to the products you might purchase in that store.  By allowing this, these stores are providing a FREE SERVICE to their customers which fosters good will.  I frequent stores that do this more often since I can find other things I'm looking for without walking all around the city.

And if you are thinking in terms of me spending money elsewhere rather than here, that is simply ridiculous.  Either a product here meets my needs or it doesn't.  Same for the other vendors.  Since the products aren't the same, you aren't losing anything from me if I buy something from another store.  Sure, I might not buy something immediately if I spent my money for the week somewhere else, but your product will go into my wishlist and get purchased eventually if I really want it.

And to top it off, even in that 1% of cases where a product is available in more than one store, you guys take credit cards while most other vendors only accept PayPal, so you win by default with many of us who hate PayPal.

PLEASE rethink this policy.  I really came to rely on the Product Showcase forum and what I see in there now is just depressing - hardly any new posts in several weeks.  Why bother?

Looks like I found a new home at Content Creators Guild.  Thanks for that.  It is desperately needed by this community.

well, I, like many, came to the product showcase to see what was new...offsite for the most part.
Then I went ot the Marketplace and checked the What's New area to see what was new here. I can now skip the Market Showcase or whatever that's called totally, and the market gallery.

NOW...where are we Poser users going to find all the new stuff from the other vendors? Wander around the Poserverse surfing a hundred sites a day?

NO...we now need a site to host a forum that will allow the small vendors and larger stores to show off their new and upcoming creations. A forum just like the one they are shut out of here at Rendo.
Who knows, it could even be a better place to advertise your wares.

I have the web space available. The new site can be called Poserverse Product Showcase. You vendors might as well join in....there's hardly anywhere else to be seen all in one place. Hell, I'll even allow Renderosity merchants to show their stuff there, all in the interest of promoting the community spirit we all love.

well isn't that interesting..while I was typing away, up pops a site just for this purpose.

>> However, I doubt, even as community minded as they are, they'd let Barnes & Noble advertise at their store.

While I agree with what you're saying, Jen -- and I do, honestly -- I cant help but feel that this going to create even more of a fragmented "merchant/buyer" mentality than we already have on the various sites, just amplified by the fact that now the advertising has to be site-specific. That, coupled with Rosity's almost complete dependence, in some respects, with products from another site, just makes the whole thing... well, a bit xenophobic.

True, Borders wouldnt let B&N advertise there, but the comparison falls apart when you acknowledge that Borders doesnt have anything that requires a prior purchase from B&N. It's self-standing. Without V4 et al, the marketplace here would be roughtly a tenth, maybe a twentieth, of what it is now, if that.

Just my 0.02. As I said, I agree with what you're saying. I just dont think it's the wisest course of action.

Borders is a nice place... but I prefer Powells... Here in Portland, they have a big bulletin board where you can post advertisements for anything... including what Powells sells.

When I've released a product in the past, I posted notices at Daz, PoserPro's, and here at Renderosity. These products have been for Daz, PoserPro's, RawArt3D, and... wait for it... Renderosity. I've never had a post taken down at any site. I've never had anyone complain, either the store management or staff.

Now, if I have a Renderosity product, I fell like I won't be able to post at other sites.. not because they ban off store advertising, but because it would be unfair, since I can't post HERE about things from other sites. So this isn't just holding me back here, it's also going to hold me back on my Renderosity product advertising.

There's two ways a store can go when they face new competition... they can close up, make new rules, and try to keep their current base by limiting contact with other stores.... Or they can open up, be MORE friendly, relax the inhibiting rules, and become the nice place to shop and go to. They can make it more attractive for vendors to sell there, and for customers to feel at home...

I do have a question though... if I were to make a supporting product for someone else's item at another store, like a texture set for some Daz clothing, does this mean I can't post a link to the original product in the Merchant's showcase? I'd want their sales to increase, since it would mean that MINE would increase here.

I don't make much, either in cash or the number of products. I choose where I'll release something by what figure it's for, the type of product, or the product it supports. These new limits make it much less attractive to try to sell here, and I think other vendors feel the same way.

Interesting indeed...

/P

Quote - The Borders and bookstore Wal-Mart analogies might make sense if it weren't for the fact that their competitors are selling the exact same products that they are.  I can buy the same book at Barnes and Noble as I can at Borders, so of course they won't advertise for each other.

However, your so called competitors are selling things that we can't buy here!  So, the product showcase provided a valuable SERVICE to your customers by giving us a "one stop shop" to find things available here as well as things that ABSOLUTELY CAN'T be purchased here (99% of the time anyway).  This is analogous to stores that have a bulletin board up near the front where businesses can put their cards or flyers advertising their products or services that are somehow related to the products you might purchase in that store.  By allowing this, these stores are providing a FREE SERVICE to their customers which fosters good will.  I frequent stores that do this more often since I can find other things I'm looking for without walking all around the city.

And if you are thinking in terms of me spending money elsewhere rather than here, that is simply ridiculous.  Either a product here meets my needs or it doesn't.  Same for the other vendors.  Since the products aren't the same, you aren't losing anything from me if I buy something from another store.  Sure, I might not buy something immediately if I spent my money for the week somewhere else, but your product will go into my wishlist and get purchased eventually if I really want it.

And to top it off, even in that 1% of cases where a product is available in more than one store, you guys take credit cards while most other vendors only accept PayPal, so you win by default with many of us who hate PayPal.

PLEASE rethink this policy.  I really came to rely on the Product Showcase forum and what I see in there now is just depressing - hardly any new posts in several weeks.  Why bother?

I understand what you're saying, but in the end, having the Marketplace Showcase open to offsite vendors hurts Renderosity vendors more than it helps.  That is one of the main reason for the change.

For anyone interested with my original question.....here is the answer

-----Original Message-----
From: sixus1
Sent: 2008-03-29 19:13:40
Subject: RE: Your question in the Poser forum

Okay, I think that I see what you are saying...

I can post in the regular galleries...but I can't say anything really about any products that I've used in it that are mine....except for blah blah by Sixus1 from Content Paradise (which is not a URL so it is okay).
**
Wether something is considered promotional is actually rather up to the mods though....because even if I don't put the name of the product all over it or anything...if it focuses too much on it....someone will say that it is promotional ?
**

-----Original Message-----
From: Jumpstartme2
Sent: 2008-03-29 19:21:39
Subject: RE: Your question in the Poser forum

Yep, you got it ;)

Alot of it is like I stated in that thread, where sometimes something could be seen as promotional, when it was unintentional, or unrealized. We'd take things like that on a case by case basis.

Quote - >> However, I doubt, even as community minded as they are, they'd let Barnes & Noble advertise at their store.

While I agree with what you're saying, Jen -- and I do, honestly -- I cant help but feel that this going to create even more of a fragmented "merchant/buyer" mentality than we already have on the various sites, just amplified by the fact that now the advertising has to be site-specific. That, coupled with Rosity's almost complete dependence, in some respects, with products from another site, just makes the whole thing... well, a bit xenophobic.

True, Borders wouldnt let B&N advertise there, but the comparison falls apart when you acknowledge that Borders doesnt have anything that requires a prior purchase from B&N. It's self-standing. Without V4 et al, the marketplace here would be roughtly a tenth, maybe a twentieth, of what it is now, if that.

Just my 0.02. As I said, I agree with what you're saying. I just dont think it's the wisest course of action.

That is true, Sean, that without sites like DAZ and Content Paradise for figures, our MP would have no existence.  We're not saying "You can't advertise that your product is for X figure at X site if you sell with us" because, frankly, that would be dumb.  If I make a character set for V4 and want to sell it here, it behooves me to link to the V4 product page to say "Here's where you can get the base figure to use my character on".  That's just good customer service, and that is still allowed.  IMHO, it should be encouraged, both by us on staff and by customers.

As for the merchant/buyer mentality....it's been so long that we all have had that...that's not going to change, Sean.  However, in that sort of market, the buyer has ALL of the power.  The power to say "You know what, that's not the quality I want, I can get it elsewhere."  The power to say "I can get a better, similar product for free, why should I pay your asking price?"  And that's what is important.  There are still a LOT of generous freestuff providers that create amazing products for free.  For instance, there are a LOT of people who look at the whole M4 figure and think "Hmmm...I can get Apollo, which already has awesome features, for free.  Give me something amazing, or I'm not paying."  And there are still others who equate quality with the amount of cash they have to give up. 

As long as there is money to be made, there will be that merchant/buyer mentality. 

Quote - Borders is a nice place... but I prefer Powells... Here in Portland, they have a big bulletin board where you can post advertisements for anything... including what Powells sells.

When I've released a product in the past, I posted notices at Daz, PoserPro's, and here at Renderosity. These products have been for Daz, PoserPro's, RawArt3D, and... wait for it... Renderosity. I've never had a post taken down at any site. I've never had anyone complain, either the store management or staff.

Now, if I have a Renderosity product, I fell like I won't be able to post at other sites.. not because they ban off store advertising, but because it would be unfair, since I can't post HERE about things from other sites. So this isn't just holding me back here, it's also going to hold me back on my Renderosity product advertising.

There's two ways a store can go when they face new competition... they can close up, make new rules, and try to keep their current base by limiting contact with other stores.... Or they can open up, be MORE friendly, relax the inhibiting rules, and become the nice place to shop and go to. They can make it more attractive for vendors to sell there, and for customers to feel at home...

I do have a question though... if I were to make a supporting product for someone else's item at another store, like a texture set for some Daz clothing, does this mean I can't post a link to the original product in the Merchant's showcase? I'd want their sales to increase, since it would mean that MINE would increase here.

I don't make much, either in cash or the number of products. I choose where I'll release something by what figure it's for, the type of product, or the product it supports. These new limits make it much less attractive to try to sell here, and I think other vendors feel the same way.

I completely see what you're saying, and I understand why you don't get your posts restricted, as well.  You release your products few and far between, and you're a modeller.  It takes longer to model than to create textures or light setups.  This isn't a jab or meant as one, because I completely have LOADS of respect for anyone that can model anything that looks like what it's supposed to be.  It takes a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time to get it right. 
The fact is this...many merchants ARE being restricted at where they can post.  DAZ has changed its' forum advertising policy to 1 advertisement per week.  In cases where merchants work in batches, which are a lot of them, this can hurt their advertisement possibility.  As I stated before, RDNA and CP don't even offer offsite merchants a chance to advertise their wares.  (And, quite frankly, if you check out the Marketplace Showcase forum, products sold there were the two biggest stores advertised there.  Not DAZ, not Rendo, RDNA and CP.)  Poser Pros is no longer a functional store (the forums still work, right?), and ArtZone is much too massive at the moment to be used as a functional advertising device.  Maybe once it's truly streamlined, it'll be easier to use for BOTH merchants and buyers.  At the moment, the best they can offer are forums and groups...which are hard to navigate for a lot of people who are used to the PHP style forum.
The fact is, we're the last of the large sites to create any kind of restrictions on advertisements.  We didn't do it solely for our bottom line.  Like I've said, it's really not fair to the vendors here who work hard on their product and get LESS free advertisement AT THE SITE THEY'RE SELLING ON than other sites are getting at the same site.  Especially when many of those brokers don't allow a reciprocating advertisement.

Quote - Interesting indeed...

/P

It is, isn't it?
Never a dull moment around here.

Quote -
I understand what you're saying, but in the end, having the Marketplace Showcase open to offsite vendors hurts Renderosity vendors more than it helps.  That is one of the main reason for the change.

Meh - I honestly don't think its perils outweigh the benefits. Sure, a sale here or there will go somewhere else, but if a reciprocal arrangement is made? Basically state up-front that if you post an external link here, then that linked site must have links point back to the RMP. I can almost guarantee you that the smaller sites will see more sales driven towards the RMP than vice-versa.

Expanded beyond our little world, history and economics have shown that protectionism is crap in the long-run, and only serves to stifle.

/P

Quote - > Quote - Interesting indeed...

/P

It is, isn't it?
Never a dull moment around here.

Nope... kinda makes it fun on a quiet Sunday morning (in-between compilations, normal maintenance, and suchlike...)

/P

Jen,

You went from one of the most open and friendly policies, to one of the most restrictive. If Daz allows a post a week, why can't the 'sity do them one better and allow 2?

Is there any room for compromise here? Pengy, as always, makes a good point too. What every happened to reciprocal arrangements?

They won't listen to anyone, but themselves. If it's Rendo's time to sink, let it sink then. I swear I don't know why we bother. Perhaps out of nostalgia.

To quote Spock, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

The needs of the entire community that visits here outweigh the needs of the vendors, or the Rendo management staff.

You can either have a close site, and drive people away (as has been done in the past) or instead try to encourage and increase the traffic here as much as possible.

The decrease in traffic will probably outweigh the small benifits gained to vendors here.

Example: Do you think my advertising my Deadcorn sets here hurt any rendo vendors at all? There's nothing like that here.

Example: Do you think that netherwork's Scarebear ads here hurt any vendors here? There is nothing here that competes with them.

Example: Do you think my posts about FROSTY hurt any vendors here? There's isn't a snowman anything like him here.

People will buy quality products wherever they are located, and most people visit the product showcase to see what's being released everywhere.. we can visit the store here to see what's new there.

Quote - To quote Spock, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

The needs of the entire community that visits here outweigh the needs of the vendors, or the Rendo management staff.

You can either have a close site, and drive people away (as has been done in the past) or instead try to encourage and increase the traffic here as much as possible.

The decrease in traffic will probably outweigh the small benifits gained to vendors here.

Example: Do you think my advertising my Deadcorn sets here hurt any rendo vendors at all? There's nothing like that here.

Example: Do you think that netherwork's Scarebear ads here hurt any vendors here? There is nothing here that competes with them.

Example: Do you think my posts about FROSTY hurt any vendors here? There's isn't a snowman anything like him here.

People will buy quality products wherever they are located, and most people visit the product showcase to see what's being released everywhere.. we can visit the store here to see what's new there.

There are many more that could be added to that list.

Quote - > Quote -

I understand what you're saying, but in the end, having the Marketplace Showcase open to offsite vendors hurts Renderosity vendors more than it helps.  That is one of the main reason for the change.

Meh - I honestly don't think its perils outweigh the benefits. Sure, a sale here or there will go somewhere else, but if a reciprocal arrangement is made? Basically state up-front that if you post an external link here, then that linked site must have links point back to the RMP. I can almost guarantee you that the smaller sites will see more sales driven towards the RMP than vice-versa.

Expanded beyond our little world, history and economics have shown that protectionism is crap in the long-run, and only serves to stifle.

/P

If these stores were brick-and-mortar, these policies would be in place long ago.  Walmart wouldn't allow Kraft to go into their store and advertise something that they only have for sale at Albertson's. 
The poser community hasn't ever been a utopia.  It's never going to be.  No site with more than one person participating is ever constantly harmonious for everyone involved.

Quote - Jen,

You went from one of the most open and friendly policies, to one of the most restrictive. If Daz allows a post a week, why can't the 'sity do them one better and allow 2?

Is there any room for compromise here? Pengy, as always, makes a good point too. What every happened to reciprocal arrangements?

I can bring it up with the store admin.  I can't guarantee that it'll be changed, but well, we can see :)

A great many people visit this site for much more than the Marketplace - information being one of the many things people like to get when they come here. All you're doing is cutting off one more source of information to your visitors, and forcing them to go to sites like DAZ where they can find out what's new beyond the borders of the site.

It's a foolish move which can only hurt Renderosity, the users and the community at large. If DAZ decide to retaliate by instituting a similar poilcy, that will hurt Rosity too. Although frankly, I don't think DAZ are so narrow-minded.

And re the DAZ '1 commercial post a week' policy - It's in the TOS to prevent spamming and flooding the forums with commercial posts. Not only that, it applies to DAZ PAs who sell their content there too. It isn't just for products at other sites. I think it's a sensible policy. Who really needs to post more than once a week for new products? Apart from spammers, no one, I think.

mac

Quote - To quote Spock, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

The needs of the entire community that visits here outweigh the needs of the vendors, or the Rendo management staff.

You can either have a close site, and drive people away (as has been done in the past) or instead try to encourage and increase the traffic here as much as possible.

The decrease in traffic will probably outweigh the small benifits gained to vendors here.

Example: Do you think my advertising my Deadcorn sets here hurt any rendo vendors at all? There's nothing like that here.

Example: Do you think that netherwork's Scarebear ads here hurt any vendors here? There is nothing here that competes with them.

Example: Do you think my posts about FROSTY hurt any vendors here? There's isn't a snowman anything like him here.

People will buy quality products wherever they are located, and most people visit the product showcase to see what's being released everywhere.. we can visit the store here to see what's new there.

You're missing the point entirely.

When a full page worth of advertising of off-site products drown out advertisements for products sold here, then YES.  It DOES hurt the advertising for a product here, whether it's a competing product or not.  What you're not getting is that it's not the product that's competing;  It's the ad space that was previously given for free.  Renderosity vendors have to pay for WORSE advertising than what others were getting for free.  And, what's worse is Renderosity vendors are even paying for that free advertising for those other ads!! 

Quote - They won't listen to anyone, but themselves. If it's Rendo's time to sink, let it sink then. I swear I don't know why we bother. Perhaps out of nostalgia.

Nostalgia, yeah, pretty much. At least that's my reason for continuing to visit.

I've been here for a long time. I use the site like a lot of us do..to see what's being developed, comraderire(sp), etc etc. It is nostalgic to continue on with a site that has, or had , been in the forefront of Poser developement for such a long time, pretty much since the beginning. Over the years, and especially in the last few, the reins have been tightened and the place has slowly been going away from the community spirit that was prevelant before.

This move is just another stop along that path. I do not buy all that much stuff from here anyway, although what I do see are alternatives to the norm..not from here so much, as from the other vendors that advertise here in the Product Showcase....  Renderosity has an overrifding glut of V4 textures, short dresses, and all that stuff, mostly looking pretty much the same, and a marketplace filled with, quite frankly, crap...and tons of it. Even an elephant shovel couldn't get rid of most of it.

What the outside vendors bring to the table in many cases, are products that can be added to or upon, by the vendors that are here on Renderosity. The outside vendors keep the party interesting.

This is the biggest marketing mistake in the history of the Poserverse, in my opinion...as a long time member of this site.

Quote -
If these stores were brick-and-mortar, these policies would be in place long ago.  Walmart wouldn't allow Kraft to go into their store and advertise something that they only have for sale at Albertson's. 

Err, what?

Jen... Sean actually nailed it - I can buy the same Kraft product at WalMart, Albertson's, Fred Meyer... your point is pretty much a (albeit unintentional) strawman argument when it comes to Poserdom.

Let's modify it to a more relevant example: WalMart and other retailers apparently have zero problems with allowing employees and managers direct you to other stores by name if they don't have what you're looking for. Why does Renderosity suddenly have a problem with this?

This isn't an isolated incident, either - breaking ties with Content Paradise stands out among other indicators.

Seriously - when I find myself agreeing with Anton and Sean Martin in this thread, maybe somebody in the PTB should reconsider their motives here?

/P

Quote - [
You're missing the point entirely.

When a full page worth of advertising of off-site products drown out advertisements for products sold here, then YES.  It DOES hurt the advertising for a product here, whether it's a competing product or not.  What you're not getting is that it's not the product that's competing;  It's the ad space that was previously given for free.  Renderosity vendors have to pay for WORSE advertising than what others were getting for free.  And, what's worse is Renderosity vendors are even paying for that free advertising for those other ads!! 

No, the reverse is actually true - Renderosity merchants can STILL advertise (within reason) for FREE at sites such as DAZ, paid for by DAZ Merchants, while DAZ (and other) PAs can no longer spread the word about their products here...  So, under your current scheme, these other merchants/PAs are actually subsidizing Renderosity...  I would posit that DAZ (for example, as the highest-volume site) is thereby subsidizing Renderosity merchants much more than the opposite.

...and the fact that independent CUSTOMERS used to browse both the Product Showcase Gallery and Forum here ENSURED that Renderosity merchants/products would be visible, even if the viewer's original reason for visiting was to learn about products elsewhere in the community - at least the eyeballs were on THIS site for a while...  Under the new regime, there is no reason to visit the Marketplace forum at all - a quick scan of the RMP front page provides much more 'visible' concise product information, more quickly than clicking individual forum threads...

Respectfully, I think that driving wedges between the various sites will hurt ALL of the sites, but MOSTLY the sites that specialize in add-ons, such as textures, characters, and props...  such as Renderosity itself.

>> However, in that sort of market, the buyer has ALL of the power.  The power to say "You know what, that's not the quality I want, I can get it elsewhere."  The power to say "I can get a better, similar product for free, why should I pay your asking price?"  And that's what is important.

Well, frankly, that should be a clue right there, that the Rosity MP has to compete a little better in the marketplace. If the buyer has all the power, why set in place something that's just gonna annoy him/her by frustrating him/her at every turn? And building walls and slamming doors shut aint the way to do it, because you guys all need each other too much. Part of this comes from letting DAZ take the lead in the first place, but unless you have something comparable, then you're pretty well stuck with products that require that DAZ pre-sale... and unless you're being open to allowing people to see what's available at DAZ, by whatever means, then this truly is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I understand thw quandry you guys are facing, but this is not the answer to it. Create a separate showcase if you must and put some restrictions there on what can be posted and at what frequency. But unless you're prepared to be a completely stand-alone operation, what you're proposing is marketplace suicide.

As usual, just my 0.02. But this is such Marketing 101...

Quote - Part of this comes from letting DAZ take the lead in the first place, but unless you have something comparable, then you're pretty well stuck with products that require that DAZ pre-sale...

As a side note, I think that Renderosity once tried (then hastily aborted) a stand-alone figure... "Renda" I think it was called. I wonder why it never returned... Sapphire Fox Hair still has a fit for it, but otherwise Google pretty much comes up dry.

People who build walls usually think it's a good idea.

I imagine the people who built the Berlin Wall thought it was a good idea at the time too.

mac

Quote -
I understand what you're saying, but in the end, having the Marketplace Showcase open to offsite vendors hurts Renderosity vendors more than it helps.  That is one of the main reason for the change.

Really?  How has it hurt Renderosity vendors?  Do you have numbers to back up that claim?

Although I can't provide numbers to the contrary, I can honestly say that it in my case it has HELPED Renderosity vendors.  There have been several instances where a third party vendor advertised a texture set for some product here in the RMP that caused me to buy the RMP product that I otherwise thought looked like crap.  Similarly, I have purchased texture sets here for meshes that were advertised in the product showcase for other sites.

So many of the products here depend on or are depended on by products in other stores.  You really are cutting off your nose to spite your face with this new policy.

I can almost understand you not paying attention to your merchants - that seems to be a theme in all too many of the stores, so you figure you can get away with it.  But I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor am I likely to ever be a merchant.  I am a Renderosity CUSTOMER, and I am seriously ticked off over this.  Note to merchants: If you want my business from now on, please sell somewhere other than Renderosity.  This place obviously could care less about their customers.  I am not likely to make any further purchases here unless I desperately need something for a project and I can't find something similar anywhere else - and even then I will think twice before giving any more of my money to this place.

Thanks Renderosity admins, moderators and other authorities for completely ruining one of the best sites in Poserdom.  I have bought more stuff here than than any other site by a long shot - but that is about to change thanks to this ridiculous new policy.  Now that I am forced to visit these other sites directly on a regular basis, I have found lots of cool stuff I never knew existed.  I guess I'll be spending my money there instead.

*Quote:'Like I've said, it's really not fair to the vendors here who work hard on their product and get LESS free advertisement AT THE SITE THEY'RE SELLING ON than other sites are getting at the same site.  Especially when many of those brokers don't allow a reciprocating advertisement'

When this policy was first being considered I agreed with it for the same reason that Jen stated above. But after reading all the posts in opposition to it I wonder if Renderosity couldn't work out some sort of compromise that would benefit everyone to some degree.

A separate showcase forum for off-site products seems like a decent proposal. Renderosity would benefit by continuing to be a hub of product info and the vendors here wouldn't have their own product advertisement buried by the off-site vendors.

Reciprocity in the advertising policy of the other sites is definitely an issue though and I don't know how that can be addressed here - or even if it should be addressed as others have already stated.

• Rick

Quote -
DAZ - No more than 1 advertisement per week, threads can (and are) removed at staff discretion even if they are only one advertisement per week
Jeni

Sorry Jen, I will take issue with the second part of this statement. Yes the DAZ forums have a limit of one advertisement per week, (and that applies to any merchant, DAZ PA's included, there is no discrimination) but we have never removed a promotion that did not break the TOS,  Not once.  And the one advertisement per week is also allowed in the the highest read forum on our site.

Presumably this new policy also means your going to sanitise forum signatures ?

This is a difficult and sticky situation, and folks have probably already commented similar to what I'm about to say ...

Many products sold in the RMP rely on products made at other sites. So, whether one likes it or not, those products are going to appear in the promos made for the RMP products. Then the question becomes "Where is that available?" That in itself will drive RMP customers off the site, so truthfully I don't see how this change regarding 3rd party promos is going to make a lot of difference in that regard. Any way you look at it, customers are still going to be going offsite to get the products that are associated with RMP products.

Unless, of course, the eventual intent is to have RMP merchants only create content for RMP products. That sure doesn't seem like a feasible goal, though, without RMP also carrying original figures. Whether Rendo likes it or not, they have to embrace the fact that their marketplace revolves around products sold at other sites.

Bla,bla When i go to the gallery i am not looking to buy products,i want to see what people made.There are plenty of places here to advertisz your products here. Adding credits for products used is fine, If  i see something i might want i can search it, just dont use links to an outside store or anywhere else.Is it really that hard?

I am glad they have limits on advertising,or else this place would be flooded with advertising worse then it is now

You, err, may want to read a bit more, Stan... this little kerfuffle involves an ad-specific portion of the site. ;)

/P

Well I am a vendor here & I think the policy is silly. I think the policy will do more harm than good & will drive people off site rather than keep them here.

Look at these senarios

Old Habits - I am browsing the Product Showcase Forum see a similar product from store X & one from Rendo, ok am already here at rendo, so I may as well get this one.

New Habits - Am browsing off site at store X cause I can no longer see offsite products here, see a product I like & purchase it there, come to Rendo & see a similar product here, ohh well have already purchased at store X.

Quote - > Quote -

I understand what you're saying, but in the end, having the Marketplace Showcase open to offsite vendors hurts Renderosity vendors more than it helps.  That is one of the main reason for the change.

Meh - I honestly don't think its perils outweigh the benefits. Sure, a sale here or there will go somewhere else, but if a reciprocal arrangement is made? Basically state up-front that if you post an external link here, then that linked site must have links point back to the RMP. I can almost guarantee you that the smaller sites will see more sales driven towards the RMP than vice-versa.

Expanded beyond our little world, history and economics have shown that protectionism is crap in the long-run, and only serves to stifle.

/P

I have to completely agree here and I would welcome a reciprocal arrangement.  Many, if not all, of my products are going to wind up in the Rendo marketplace anyways because I feel that customers need choices to shop at.  Some are comfortable buying here, some at CP, some at my site shoppe.  I would have zero issue linking back to rendo or running banners for Rendo at my shoppe.  It fosters community and I think that's important.  I've also extended that to ANYONE who runs another shop - I'll gladly do a merchant exchange with you - banner for banner with reciprocal links.

Anyways, I guess I'm just community oriented and I don't truly feel that any of the real-world comparisons hold too much water.  Digital product is much different from tangible goods and the costs and real estate requirements for businesses housed in concrete are much different from online shops with digital downloads.

But hey, if folks don't agree ... that's fine.  No worries here.  I can hang out a bit more at the other sites and promote where allowed.  I do like coming here though.  There is a wealth of information and some really nice folks around, even if we don't always see eye-to-eye.  :)  Doesn't matter.... I've grown a pretty thick shell.

I have one word for this policy. Horseshit.  or is that two words?  lol

Quote - I have one word for this policy. Horseshit.  or is that two words?  lol

I think it's just one word here the way you used it. You could call it horse shit, but that seems to not have the same impact when the words are separated like that.
Although I think "bullshit" would have been equally applicable. ;-)