V4, V3, V2, the EF figures, the former Poser figures, any and all of that through all Poser's history....
All of those figures are nothing more than 3D meshes. In Poser of course, they're rigged, some well-rigged, some not so good.
But there's no reason at all for anyone to simply have to deal with it. To say that V4 (or any of them) doesn't bend like a real person is a moot point, since the bending is only limited by the way the geometry and bones are designed, any and all of which can be altered by anyone with the knowledge and the persistence.
My hypothetical "PoserUltra" would make all that easier and allow one to do it within Poser itself, rather than other apps, plus allow for new figures to be set up more easily.

"So, what about the G2 figures? Why hasn't anyone in the community (besides RDNA and a selected few others) taken the time to work on them?"

Because they suck.
Plain and simple. They suck.
The abdomen and the buttock bending is miles better than V4's but their ellbows, knees and shoulders are afwul.
The mesh is bloated, their are no "official" morphs, and
besides MIKI 2 the bodies and faces are horrible,

Sydney is just a "Vickyfied" Miki, while Simon, well, I really don't think any mesh deserves to look like Simon.
I mean, James I looked AWESEOME, and then they morphed him into Simon and James 2.
Same with Koji 1. The most realistic looking male Poser face EVER, and they ruined everything.

You think I "hate" V4 and DAZ ?

Nope. Ever since Posette the owners of Poser managed to drop the ball MASSIVELY.
They made the first "complete" Poser woman, and they were obviously so ashamed that they made her as ugly as possible so noone would even WANT to play with her extra parts.

And I still wonder what they were smoking when they OK'd Jessi and the P6 kids.

Quote - My question that I can't guess at an answer for is why the unimesh is so robust at taking morphs and deformers while all the EF (and pre-curser) figures are so bad at taking morphs and deformers... I love the shape of the P4 figures, and the P5 figures, and the James 6 and Miki 1020 and even Jessie G2 but they just look absurd with the FBMs and fall apart when I try to make morphs for them with magnets. Why are they so brittle? They look much more real than Daz off the rack to me but they just can't morph... not even with the RDNA morph sets. V4 falls somewhere between the EF and the unimesh in brittleness IMO. What makes the difference... it doesn't seem to be mesh density. The only thing I have come up with is the base of the EFs being more ectomorph and the Daz 2 and Daz 3 being more mesomorph but that isn't it either.

Not  just mesh density but polygon flow as well. I'm not familiar much with any of the EF figures because frankly I don't like 'em, but the DAZ figures morph very well due to the poly flow.
I'm not into using the magnets anymore, but if you take a DAZ figure into modo and use the sculpting tools on it with a tablet with pressure sensitivity, you can shape almost anything, evenly, and also do so without ridiculous stretching.

In addition to the poly flow the G2 meshes are a lot more "stylized." The more definition there is in a base model, the harder it is to morph it out.

They ARE hard to work with .. in some cases much harder than the DAZ figures (even Aiko and V4). Poser Pro is supposed to come with some new figures. Hope they're better than their predecessors.

"To say that V4 (or any of them) doesn't bend like a real person is a moot point, since the bending is only limited by the way the geometry and bones are designed, any and all of which can be altered by anyone with the knowledge and the persistence."

Sorry, but I disagree.
V4's cr2 is so complicated that most "advanced hobbyists" don't even know where to start.
Someone like XAA or Anton could probably do it.
Phantom3d already gave us a short glimpse of what V4 COULD have been.

But changing her rig would break each and any clothing made for her, and if you use the morphbrush, make her incompatible with D|S, so you'll be in the same position like any other independent mesh creator:
No "official" support.

No, we need a mesh that is "perfect" right from the start, optimised for Poser and it's new morphbrush technology.
Something the normal user just can "use" without having to do stuff by himslf, but yet so "simple" that the advanced users still can tinker around with it.

A Poser mesh doesn't need a gazillion magnets and "morphforms" to bend.
Smart rigging and a few fix morphs is all what's needed to get optimal results.

Quote -
No, we need a mesh that is "perfect" right from the start, optimised for Poser and it's new morphbrush technology.
Something the normal user just can "use" without having to do stuff by himslf, but yet so "simple" that the advanced users still can tinker around with it.

I'm not gonna disagree with you there. I'm no fan of anything to the point where I'll defend it when I can see flaws.
I was just saying that for now, hacks in Poser and using other apps for geometry and UV "fixing" is all we have.. until it's all better-designed.

Well, I'd love to continue with this discussion as it has become quite interesting, but I have some friends waiting on me at the bar. Friday night, time to party til I puke. ;-)

A Poser mesh doesn't need a gazillion magnets and "morphforms" to bend.
Smart rigging and a few fix morphs is all what's needed to get optimal results. <<<

Even the G2 figures use a magnet system, though ...

Quote - Seriously? She (assuming that she is a she, given that no one really knows anymore about anyone) came into this with a smart-mouth attitude towards me that was unwarranted. Sorry, it was, period. She didnt like that I took all of five whole paragraphs to explain my position -- and I guess that was testing the limits of her reading capabilities. Sometimes you just cant let them off the hook that easily, lest they think they can pull that kind of BS again. And she definitely has issues all her very, very own, but we wont discuss those here. It wouldnt be polite, you see. :-)

Well, from this end it looks like you're the one with issues. See, PJZ99 is one of the very friendly and more normal regulars around here.
You on the other hand came out of nowhere and have been fighting with everyone ever since. Issues? Agenda? Overall bad temper as a norm? Who knows what your beef (or lack thereof) is. I can't even sift through what exactly you're saying or stand for, from your bashing everyone around here.

"The more definition there is in a base model, the harder it is to morph it out."

Sorry, wrong.
It's easy to smooth a well defined mesh, but it's very hard to get definition in.
M2 has the best muscle definition in Poserdom.
Yet Stephanie 1 is EXACTLY the same mesh.

Besides, this "One size fits all" mantra is what's causing a lot of problems.
You can't have a generic mesh that you just morph into a gazillion of shapes.
Men need different joints than Woman, fat people need different joints than underweight ones, babies need fat rolls, preteens need ribs and knees and shoulderblades sticking out, each figure needs it's own set of face morphs.
It's even hard to get proper ethnic morphs, less alone realistic body types and ages.

Forget about "This figure can be all what YOU want. Just spin a few dials".
If you want truly accurate and realistic meshes, you must specialize.

Quote - Btw, I actually hope that the rift between D|S and Poser will manifest as soon as possible so that merchants HAVE to decide which side they take.

If a future Vicky becomes completely incompatible with Poser that would be the best chance to establish a non-DAZ mesh as the new standard.
So I actually hope that DAZ will implement a lot more new "features" and "improvements" into oh-so-modern Studio and adapts her latest V-chick accordingly.

Did you know that the next  improvement' DAZ is putting out is Studio capable of rigging, and writing Poser style cr2 files.

"Even the G2 figures use a magnet system, though ..."

Another reason I don't like them.
The added waist bodypart was a good idea, as well as re-introducing buttocks.
But the rest was just a quick patch-job.

>> Well, from this end it looks like you're the one with issues. See, PJZ99 is one of the very friendly and more normal regulars around here.
You on the other hand came out of nowhere and have been fighting with everyone ever since. Issues? Agenda? Overall bad temper as a norm? Who knows what your beef (or lack thereof) is. I can't even sift through what exactly you're saying or stand for, from your bashing everyone around here.

Fine. Whatever, gang. Have a merry little community.

Happy, Tommy boy?

How about you, missy? You glad too?

Party starts now, guys. Dont waste too much time.

Quote - > Quote - In theory, I believe that the plans for "UltraPoser" are already in the works -- it's called Poser Pro.

Not quite. I take it you didn't read this completely. Can't say I blame you there.

What I'm referring to as "Ultra Poser" is far beyond the soon-to-be Poser Pro. Basically it's Maya with a LightWave understandability factor,  with some VRay, RealFlow, SyFlex, and Project:Messiah tossed in for good measure. Plus of course, Poser.
And don't come back and say nobody will buy it, or it'll price the hobbyists out because we've gone through all that already too. ;-)

Oh, I wouldn't anticipate what I might say in advance.    Sure, there are people around who'd buy a $3500 version of Poser.    The part that I don't see happening is the existence of such a package in the first place.  But I certainly have no objections to the idea (theory) of one.

You are correct in stating that I haven't read the entire thread.  However, I was aware of the pieces and parts that I was responding to.  I was pointing out that Poser Pro -- and maybe other versions of Poser descending from it -- are likely to be all of the principle of an "UltraPoser" that we'll ever see.

Your idea is a nice one, though.  Once again: I doubt that it'll ever come to be; but a successful run for Poser Pro might make such a thing marginally more within the realm of possibility down the road.

"Did you know that the next  improvement' DAZ is putting out is Studio capable of rigging, and writing Poser style cr2 files."

And ?

As long as Studio can't read MorphBrush morphes, they have nothing.
The magnet system is a dead-end, but I doubt they will abandon it anytime soon because they partly introduced to make cloth creation easier for merchants.

Quote - >> Well, from this end it looks like you're the one with issues. See, PJZ99 is one of the very friendly and more normal regulars around here.
You on the other hand came out of nowhere and have been fighting with everyone ever since. Issues? Agenda? Overall bad temper as a norm? Who knows what your beef (or lack thereof) is. I can't even sift through what exactly you're saying or stand for, from your bashing everyone around here.

Fine. Whatever, gang. Have a merry little community.  Happy, Tommy boy? 
How about you, missy? You glad too?
Party starts now, guys. Dont waste too much time.

Well, did you expect everyone will welcome you with open arms after bashing a few regulars and people's friends in here, and now you're martyring around when people aren't enamored with you. Are you serious?

However imperfect, it is a merry little community.  If you want to be a part of it, why are you fighting with everyone, and putting them down left and right for not having the same opinion as yours?

Besides, arguing with people around here is my job, not yours :P

Quote - "Did you know that the next  improvement' DAZ is putting out is Studio capable of rigging, and writing Poser style cr2 files."

And ?

And... thais means to me that this trend continues there will be other good things to come. I don't see why morph brush recognition and other things couldn't be a part of it.  The more I hear, the more I lean towards D|S.

Quote - Besides, arguing with people around here is my job, not yours :P

Wait a minute, now........that's MY job!

Wanna argue about it......?????!!!!!!! :woot:

M2 has the best muscle definition in Poserdom.
Yet Stephanie 1 is EXACTLY the same mesh. <<

Yup, you do have a point there.  I really liked Stephanie 1, too!

Quote -
Wait a minute, now........that's MY job!

Wanna argue about it......?????!!!!!!! :woot:

Kitty poofs her tail and peers sternly at Xeno.....

....
......
.......

Ummm...   no, You win!
...................................................[runs off and hides under the bed....... is he still looking?]

Quote -

Kitty poofs her tail and peers sternly at Xeno.....

....
......
.......

Ummm...   no, You win!
...................................................[runs off and hides under the bed....... is he still looking?]

:lol:

Actually, my cats aren't afraid of me at all.  Except when they attach themselves to my ankles as I'm attempting to walk somewhere, and I am unaware of their presence (at first, anyway).  They also like to suddenly dash directly in front of your legs as you go through a door between rooms.....which can get interesting at times.  But other than an occasional totally unintentional mishap: cats have nothing to fear from me.

Well, you know, the cat always wins in the end.

A friend of mine learned to put his underwear on at light speed. Whenever he stepped out of the shower, his cat was waiting for him. And we all know how much cats love to play with dangly things...

Quote - Well, you know, the cat always wins in the end.

A friend of mine learned to put his underwear on at light speed. Whenever he stepped out of the shower, his cat was waiting for him. And we all know how much cats love to play with dangly things...

diet coke spew

Quote -
(Xenophonz)
Your idea is a nice one, though.  Once again: I doubt that it'll ever come to be; but a successful run for Poser Pro might make such a thing marginally more within the realm of possibility down the road.

Thank you. Yes, I believe you're right about that. The more successful this PP ends up, the more likely for further future improvement.

Does anyone know if Poser Pro will support Sub-D?

For me, the big improvement would be a manual that explained things, rather than listing them. For instance, there's this line in the Poser 7 manual: The FBM node is a multi-fractal function. It has the following attributes: I know just enough about Fractals to know that most of them are not the Mandelbrot Set, but there's not even usefully Googleable information. There's a lot of stuff I've figured out how to do with shader nodes, but much of the manual has been no help at all.

Quote - Does anyone know if Poser Pro will support Sub-D?

This has been talked about before, but not announced officially.  I think it very, very unlikely, since a great many models that were designed for Poser have had their edges broken and will look very wrong if subdivided with Catmull-Clark algorithm.

(Sigh...)  How about normal maps?  Will Poser pro support them?

http://graphics.smithmicro.com/filemanager/startdownload/1916/PoserPro_Comparison_Chart.pdf

Attached Link: Poser Pro Comparison Chart

It does mention normal map support as being in the Base and Pro versions of Poser Pro.

Another thing that I find intriguing (and have since this feature comparison was made public) ... is they also mention "new low res human base characters" and "new medium res human base characters" for the Pro and Base versions. But the PRO (and not Base) version also has "Legacy Human Figures Poser 7 and Earlier".

So ... I've been curious about this since day 1. And optimistically hopeful that some of the things we've been hoping for just MIGHT be hidden within.

Cool Normal Mapping page:
http://zarria.net/nrmphoto/nrmphoto.html

Sorry, pjz ... crosspost! I didn't type fast enough LOL

Quote -
Do you really think that a professional modeller who spent years to hone his skills all of a sudden says:
"Oh man, that Vicky 4 Girl sure is hawt and now she comes even pre-rigged for Max.
I can't wait to use her in my artwork so that it'll look exactly like those of every Dick, Jane and Harry who downloaded her for $1.99 from DAZ."

Heh - I dunno about "hawt", but I have personally seen mesh being purchased, then modified all to Hell so that it looks nothing like the original. :)

Quote - There is no market for premade stuff in the professional CGI world except for generic items like cars or houses or stuff.

Depends on the house - if they're main bread-and-butter is making original film or stills, then you'd be right. If they're a combination marketing/media/gfx department for a corporation of 90K employees that primarily make something else, then it's a whole different deal.

Quote - Try to tell a songwriter that performing other people's music is on the same artistic level as composing a song note by note.
Poser artists are the Backstreet Boys and Spice Girls of CGI. (If they are lucky)
MAX and MAYA users are the Bob Dylans and Beatles.

I love the analogy, but it doesn't count the majority spectrum in-between. After all (as example), Orchestras and their conductors routinely perform music 'pre-written' by guys who have been dead for centuries. You know, written by guys like Bach, Handel, Wagner...

Quote - Anyway, I'm sure the Poser development team knows which side their bread is buttered on, and that it's not the wannabe professionals that'll pay their paycheck.

Again, (for the nth time), it's not an either/or proposition... Not ever pro house is Pixar, and not every amateur renders wannabe Boris Vallejo lash-ups. Poser shows up on TV (esp. commercials) almost as often these days as Maya/Renderman does.

Quote - Poser is the Volkswagen among the CGI apps.
A truly "Peoples Program" that gave CGI to the unwashed masses, constantly improved and refined, but resistent to changes just for changes sake so it not only becomes "new", but truly "better".

Silo is cheaper, and does modeling to boot. Carrara costs just as much as Poser, and IMHO does an equal-to-better job, plus I can export Collada files from it for later use when/if I want to do something higher-end.

To be honest, I would prefer that any improved Poser would keep the ability to load existing and previous figures - OTOH, it's a balancing act, and Poser has (unfortunately) positioned itself a a somewhat closed ecosystem, with no current way out or up for existing work.

Quote - As I said, I'm all for a better Poser.
But don't spit on the people that made Poser what it is today: The hobbyist tinkerers and those who fill the galleries with kitschy NVIATWAS.

Nobody's doing that.

--

Quote - Because they suck.
Plain and simple. They suck.
The abdomen and the buttock bending is miles better than V4's but their ellbows, knees and shoulders are afwul.

Terai Yuki has some extremely decent bending in the hips once you figure out that you don't use the thighs to bend the leg...

Quote - Nope. Ever since Posette the owners of Poser managed to drop the ball MASSIVELY.

Posette was built originally by Zygote - the builders of it spun off their own company - DAZ.

G2 was (IIRC) put together by the PTB @ RDNA (which is why they support it so much).

--

Quote - In addition to the poly flow the G2 meshes are a lot more "stylized." The more definition there is in a base model, the harder it is to morph it out.

They ARE hard to work with .. in some cases much harder than the DAZ figures (even Aiko and V4). Poser Pro is supposed to come with some new figures. Hope they're better than their predecessors.

Agreed, perfectly.

--

Quote - "To say that V4 (or any of them) doesn't bend like a real person is a moot point, since the bending is only limited by the way the geometry and bones are designed, any and all of which can be altered by anyone with the knowledge and the persistence."

Sorry, but I disagree.

A 'joint' isn't very much more than a morph coupled with a quaternion rotation. The "bones" are merely points in space and a limit sphere that the quat calculation can hinge on and limit off of.

IOW, Mike is correct.

--

Quote - Well, from this end it looks like you're {Sean} the one with issues. See, PJZ99 is one of the very friendly and more normal regulars around here.

PJ I've known for years... he is a stand-up guy (even in alt.flame).

--

Quote - Did you know that the next  improvement' DAZ is putting out is Studio capable of rigging, and writing Poser style cr2 files.

Yep. :)

--

Quote - Happy, Tommy boy?

It has nothing to do with my emotions, Sean. I approached this (and many others) from the perspective of what's best going forward for all of us.

--

Quote - Besides, arguing with people around here is my job, not yours :P

No it's not - that's MY job you git! (same goes to that piker Xeno...) :p

--

/P

Quote - Another thing that I find intriguing (and have since this feature comparison was made public) ... is they also mention "new low res human base characters" and "new medium res human base characters" for the Pro and Base versions. But the PRO (and not Base) version also has "Legacy Human Figures Poser 7 and Earlier".

Don't get the impression that Poser's polygon smoothing cannot work with low poly content, it can.  It just requires very specific modeling techniques, and modeling for Catmull-Clark subdivision requires different specific modeling techniques.  In some cases they can produce similar results, but in some cases (e.g. practically any Stonemason Poser model) they only look good with polygon smoothing turned off, or with Reyes polygon smoothing (Poser's method).

Note that is not a slam against Stonemason, he's an awesome modeler and texturer; he just builds his Poser models with techniques that do not work well with Catmull-Clark subdivision, that's all.

Info on Reyes rendering method (includes an explanation of how polygon smoothing works but it's pretty abstract and provides no visual example)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reyes_rendering

Info on Catmull-Clark subdivision:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catmull-clark

Well I might be disappointed ... but that would be the only thing that would entice me to buy it at this point. 8-)

Quote -

--

Quote - Besides, arguing with people around here is my job, not yours :P

No it's not - that's MY job you git! (same goes to that piker Xeno...) :p

--

/P

I'd argue about it, but I'm in too good of a mood today.  No spare time to kill, either.  sigh

Thanks for the answers and links everyone.  I have another question.  How well does displacecment work in the current version of Poser?

edit: actually taking a close look here I see a significant error in the way displacement was rendered, so maybe not so fine .... ^_^

What caused the error at the 12 o'clock position?

I've no idea ^_^

How often does this anomoly occur?

that material shown is set like so, and my default measurement unit is set to Inches (so displacement is up to 2.4 inches away from the normal):

Thanks!  I'll give it a try.

Quote - "The more definition there is in a base model, the harder it is to morph it out."

Sorry, wrong.
It's easy to smooth a well defined mesh, but it's very hard to get definition in.
M2 has the best muscle definition in Poserdom.
Yet Stephanie 1 is EXACTLY the same mesh.

you missed the point completely here, sure its easy to smooth out a mesh to create a completely new mesh, but try combining morphs that change the shape, such as facial character morphs, on a base mesh that has a lot of detail and you will soon find the limitations, that each morph needs to fight the base mesh shape to create a new shape and when you combine two or more of those morphs you are basically multiplying that shape correction. thats why starting with a simpler topology but more well thought out mesh flow is always going to give you a more versatile
mesh.

*you missed the point completely here, sure its easy to smooth out a mesh to create a completely new mesh, but try combining morphs that change the shape, such as facial character morphs, on a base mesh that has a lot of detail and you will soon find the limitations, that each morph needs to fight the base mesh shape to create a new shape and when you combine two or more of those morphs you are basically multiplying that shape correction. thats why starting with a simpler topology but more well thought out mesh flow is always going to give you a more versatile
mesh.

I agree.  That's what I'm struggling with!   How do I make a 10k sub-d'ed poly figure work in both Studio and Poser?

Well a complete rewrite (at least for OSX) is coming.....

Apple is dropping support for the Carbon 64 libraries.  So everybody that didn't do what Stevie told them to start 8 years ago are going to be hosed.

"At the WWDC show last June, however, Adobe & other developers learned that Apple had decided to stop their Carbon 64 efforts. This means that 64-bit Mac apps need to be written to use Cocoa (as Lightroom is) instead of Carbon. This means that we'll need to rewrite large parts of Photoshop and its plug-ins (potentially affecting over a million lines of code) to move it from Carbon to Cocoa."

"...to give you a more versatile
mesh."

This is exactly DAZ went wrong: Versatility is the worst thing their marketing department came ever up with.
"Buy one figure and dial her into a gazillion shapes !"

Sorry, but "Jack of all trades but master of none" is not good enough.

If you want true realism and accuracy, then we need specialized figures.
I want a mesh that looks as convincingly "FAT" as Rikishi does because it was built as a FAT person from the ground up. with joints especially made for a FAT person and JCM's especially made for a FAT person.
Not a "morphform" that makes the joints break.

And I also want a realistic THIN person where you can count every rib and see every muscle under the skin.

And also realistic children which really look like children and not like little shrunken adults.
I want women that look like women and men that look like men.
And realistic proportions, not carricatures like you find these days on the photoshopped titles of fashion mags.

I'm sick of the "generic blank canvas stuff".
Actually "I" can morph and re-rig any mesh so that it fills my needs, but how many people can ?
And how many people who can, do ?

In all these years Blackhearteds Irina and GND where the only attempts to create a more realistic body for V3 and SP3.
And I won't be surprised if his new GND4 will stay the only attempt for V4.

Sorry, but the majority uses a figure "as is".
So we need meshes that are specific and photorealistic right out of the box.

The "blank canvas" idea has failed because hardly anybody in Poserdom is able to fill it.
And no, spinning the same lame old four body dials to make the boobs bigger doesn't count.

Let toons and anime be toons and anime, and let realistic be realistic.
Don't mix them up.
Don't "design" figures so that the "might" sell better.

Just copy reality.

Jeeez. I guess if someone could persuade Milla Jovovich to let herself scanned in a 3D scanner and then make an EXACT 3D clone of her, exact and accurate to the last fraction of an inch, a lot of folks here would start to whine and wail and gnash their teeth and insist that she'd be way too ugly to sell even a single copy because her ass might be too fat, her legs too short and her boobs too small.

In the scale modelling world people will tear you apart if you forget to replicate a single rivet or a welding bead on a model.
But among 3d modellers, and especially in Poserland,  accuracy seems to be quite "optional".

But the other part of the equation is that many of the people in Poserdom are doing this as a hobby and can't afford "specialized" characters and clothing for them.

The DAZ models can be morphed to look like real people, regardless of whether or not the majority of people take the time to do it.

I actually bought P6 because of the promo hype that Jessi was going to be a leap forward in realism! Ouch!

>> Well, did you expect everyone will welcome you with open arms after bashing a few regulars and people's friends in here, and now you're martyring around when people aren't enamored with you. Are you serious?

Just inprocess of taking down what little I have around here, but let me fill you in on just one of your "friends".

Ask Tommy the Troll aka Pengie about the post he wrote in which he decided I was a little too fond of little boys, given the style of my illustrations, coupled with his ongoing opinion that I really, really hate galleries filled with naked women because, well, after all, I"m gay and therefore a naked woman is anathema. He really loves posting that, as he even did earlier in this thread, because it's about the only string on his harp. And if he can reinforce that by suggestig a little boy-love on my part, man, the crowd just goes wild.

Oh, but it's a joke, right? I'm sure that'll be his considered response, and you guys will buy it, because you always do.

But hey, nothing like having someone call you a pedophile and then seeing no one giving a crap.

Sure, he'll deny it, but it's all part of his SOP. He has these moments of selective homophobia, when it involves people he doesnt especially like and has made a career out of belittling just so he can run off to RFI or Rotica... oh wait, he's been banned from there, right? Damn, what do you have to do to get banned from a place like that? No idea myself, but no doubt it had to do with subtle "jokes", like "Oh Sean, the guy into little boys". (That's your cue, BTW, to break into uncontrolled laughter.)

Well, hey, no skin off my posterior, folks. The poor guy needs to feel superior to someone, given his own, well-advertised history. But y'know, he's your friend. Good luck. For myself, I have zero need of this place, thanks anyway, especially when it thinks someone who considers pedophilia a "joke". Got along without it before; shall get along with it now. It's been fun. It's even been real. But it hasnt been much more.