beatings and salivations, kiddies, it's the Wolfboy comin' at ya live from the rusted guts of the NightMare Machine with a little something to get that vein in the side o' yer head throbbin'! we've all been privvy to the big debates here at Camp R'osity ad nauseum: the Big Breasts Bruhaha, the Is Poser Really Art Argument, and so on. it's been a good while since we had anything new to spit and cuss over, so lemme throw the first suckerpunch to the chin of the masses and bring up something that's been burning in my blackened brain for a while. we download freestuff...oooh BOY do we download it! i've got stuff that's been shuffled from CD-R to DVD-R a few times over, stuff i may not even ever use, but just in case, i've got it, brother! we take, we take, we take. of course, all that stuff wouldn't be there if it were not for those that give, some generously, some with understandable rules, some with rules that seem to go against the whole spirit of giving back to the community from which one has so deeply dipped his bucket into. we have folks that allow any use of what they provide, then others who allow the same so long as we don't try to sell the actual items themselves, which i can get my teeth into...that's only right, methinks. we also have folks, like this one guy who shall remane nameless (i'm not trying to beat anyone up here, just get opinions), who provides all this great stuff, BUT doesn't even allow commercial renders with ANY of it without paying a fee for the "free" item to be used. the readmes clearly state that you can't even archive it to a CD/DVD without his divine blessing. i asked him about all this at one point, and he said simply that if he works hard on his stuff, and if he doesnt make any money, neither should anyone else. kinda defeats the whole idea of "giving back" if ya ask me. so, here we go, whaddya think, dear victims? people have the right to want what they want when it comes to their freestuff, right? does it reflect badly on the giver when he/she places overtightened restrictions on stuff that's supposed to be a method by which to repay other community members for their generosity? have we become so vain and greedy that we no longer feel good about giving someone a hand up? one of the common threads i see here is people having a hard time financially, the casual mention of it here and there. what if someone had the chance to make some money (we could all use it, eh?) with a few renders, and the very things that would turn out the perfect works had the "no commercial renders" lock on 'em? wouldn't it give you that warm, fuzzy feeling to know that something you gave up as freestuff helped someone else? so there it is, snap it up and get a good bite of it...i'm listening..

Well, I'll bite.

Imo, Freebie providers have the right to allow, or disallow use of their items in any way they see fit. They give items away {not the rights to the item, just the right to use it} and I see no problem with anyone restricting a freely given item to non-commercial use.

Some providers work extremely hard and long hours to create quality items for others to use, that could not afford to pay for them otherwise....all they ask is not to try and sell what they create with it....if the freebie provider is not making money from their own creations {which they could in alot of cases}..then why should the receiver make money off of something they didn't work for?

the readmes clearly state that you can't even archive it to a CD/DVD without his divine blessing.
stuff that - sorry but, it's my computer I choose what to back up or not.
When I pay $200 for an application like office - I back that up.  

*, BUT doesn't even allow commercial renders with ANY of it without paying a fee for the "free" item to be used

*I alway love this line - as 90% of us are NOT commercial artists, and don't have our work in every magzine or movie poster. so is it time to stop pretending we're all professionals and start to embrace the idea of being a hobbyist. Celebrate being the little guy, and give being an amateur a hug! :)

Though If someone is going to make some money off the work of a freebie creator - then ethically speaking should they share that ? 

My take is if you've made some money using my freebies then fair play to you - it's your cash. 
A credit if possible would be nice, but if not thats no big deal. The only restriction I apply is to fan arts stuff - because thats not my idea.       

To me this is the same argument as the " it was posted on the internet, so its mine to do with as I please"  about pictures.

The free stuff creator has the right to determine what conditions he puts on his work , the same as an artist posting his works in the gallery. Some modellers post preliminary work , or work done for a commercial picture , to the freestuff so more people can get use from a nice model. Many of the frestuff items are as good or better than some of the stuff in the various stores, but they dont want the bother of pakaging and customer support. .  To some what they would make selling a model for Poser isnt worth while.

I keep freestuff now in a freestuff  runtime so it doesnt get used in commercial work.  

A number of freestuff providers have been so mistreated over the years , that they have said "bye ! " and pulled everything , and put the new stuff for sale . Its sad to see that happen .

I have a number of free items , one with almost 2,000 downloads , and how many pms or comments have I got. Thats right , buger all ! , I think about 11 comments , including the two that said , "what rubbish " . Not even 1 % .   I sometimes wonder why I bother with it .

Instead of griping about conditions , people should think about showing a bit of gratitude  for what other contribute . 

What conditions a freestuff maker puts on his work is up to the freestuff maker. Whether some conditions are wise to put on the freestuff is a totally different matter. I could put a condition on a freestuff item that says you can only use this item on a PC with an AMD processor and not an Intel processor, or that you must stand on your head in a yoga position while using this item, or that you may only print renders of this item on recycled toilet paper. Ridiculous conditions, but I'm free to put them on the item. WIth the result that nobody will use it, and that nobody will find out what quality the item is.
So I prefer to allow both commercial and non-commercial renders, to allow redistribution in unmodified form, to allow modifications and redistribution of those modifications on the condition that I'm mentioned as a provider of base materials, and even inclusion of my freestuff in commercial packs, on the condition that the readme that goes with my freestuff is included with the pack - so the purchaser of the pack has exactly the same rights on my freestuff as if he/she had downloaded it from the freestuff section here. I believe these conditions make my freestuff more attractive to end users, and that more end users will find out what quality they can expect when they download something I made.
And that reputation is going to be a great help when I enter the marketplace.

P.S.: no need to worry, I won't stop making freestuff. It's way too much fun.

I agree with Jump, I see absolutely nothing wrong with a restricted license, and I also think you've made an unfair assumptions that everyone is  "giving back" when they give stuff away.

There's also a number of reasons why some people might not allow commercial that I'm not sure you've considered.

1] There's cases where the software someone uses restricts the creation of commercial work. Examples being academic software, and some software that has a "free for non commercial use" license. If someone were to create something using software licensed as such, it may prohibit them from selling what they've made, but not prohibit them giving it away. Were someone else to use the item given away  in a commercial render, it may well be a violation of the original users software EULA, and may possibly have legal ramifications should that ever come up.

2] Another situation could be that someone's just completed a project, commercial, or a short film of their etc, and once they're done with said project they've decided to release their assets for free. Those assets might include some props, or sets, or even unique characters they've come up with.

If its someone's personal character that they've been developing for a couple years, while they may not mind you using it for your own personal renders, I can certainly see where they might take issue with you using that character in a commercial render.

Also, if they're assets developed specifically for a commercial project, depending on exclusivity or something, the client may not mind those assets being released for free use, but may not like the idea of something they contracted you to make for them appearing in other commercial renders.

3] As I mentioned before, not everyone is necessarily "giving back to the community," I'm sure there's plenty of modelers out there that may well never have "dipped their bucket" into the pool of free stuff as they've always chosen to model their own stuff, and it may well just be a case of them having no further use for what they've modeled [this may well tie in to either of the above reasons as well], so rather than leaving it to collect cyber-dust on their harddrive they see it best to put it up for public consumption.

4] Mr Sparky makes another good point. While there's often little issue with giving away and personal use of copyrighted assets, such as fan art, not everyone realizes that it can't be used for commercial work, and thus it certainly needs to be restricted.

I can't agree with you point about money being tight as a reason why free stuff should be unrestricted. It could be just as easily be that the maker of the free stuff is tight on cash themselves, yet still chooses to give away assets without asking for compensation.

I agree fully with what Jump, and with what Mark and svdl have posted while I've been typing. Going back to one of Jump's points, I see absolutely no problem with someone who's given something away that they very well could have charged for, and in return asking that no one uses said item to make a profit for themselves.

As a provider of "freestuff" myself here's the deal...you abide by my restrictions (if I see fit to add any) or I'll refund you the price you paid for my model.
Can't get simpler than that, can I? ~lol~

SIGH. Same argument, I mean thread, is in the DAZ Commons forum. It started to get pretty
nasty. Jump, you'll need to keep an eye on things cause the DAZ one degenerated REAL
fast. On topic, I agree artists have the right to post any restrictions with their freebies that they
chose to. This whole argument  is the reason I'll never post any of my stuff. This link:
http://www.shininghalf.com/desprit/posermoan.html
says everything that needs saying. Who know how many freebies never get posted because
of the 'You Owe Me' attitude I always see in these threads. I'll bow out now as I've had my say. :)

Greywolf

*"Celebrate being the little guy, and give being an amateur a hug! :)" 
                                                                                                                          * mrsparky

   I think this is possibly the wisest advice I've ever seen in a forum here, and really at the heart of it all that is why we're here.
   I agree also with jumpy's assessment of this situation...
I've never seen the restriction where you can't even back it up myself...a tad weird that and I'd likely just ignore that rather than let it bother me.. ...

I am a very lousy 3D content creator.  I have made some freebies, and some people have honoured me by downloading them in the first place, and I thank them for their support and encouragement. 

I say No to commercial usage of my freebies, because it would be a total embarassment to me ( and to the user) if they tried a high-quality project using my ... ahem... 3D content... koff.... It's just for fun, guys.

One can't ring-fence one's down-stream users; one can at best make one's wishes known loudly and clearly.  (edited for logic !!)

On the other hand, many commercial-use 3D items end up in the pirate zones of the internet.  Shame.  The freebies don't get pirated so blatantly, probably because it's just not "worth" bothering.  Or perhaps the pirates have some other agenda, who knows.

Quote - Jump, you'll need to keep an eye on things cause the DAZ one degenerated REAL
fast.

~hehe~ They don't call me EBIL for nuttin' examines her multitude of torture utensils :lol:

SIGH. Same argument, I mean thread, is in the DAZ Commons forum. It started to get pretty
nasty. Jump, you'll need to keep an eye on things cause the DAZ one degenerated REAL
fast.

Everything turns nasty in the Daz Commons forum..I've never seen such a whiney, bitchin' bunch of people...and yes..I belong to the PC and spend money at Daz as well as other places..but I stay out of their forums unless there is some special going on that causes me to have to go there.

I think the people who give away the things they have created...are wonderful!  I have lots of freebies from here and I have passed a few by that had unreasonable (to me) restriictions..but that really isn't the case with most of them.  I think if you don't like their restrictions..don't use the freebie...

Where it's possible to add such info - most of the time I give credit to both freebie and commerical products.

Note the both there - because the prices for poser content often doesn't reflect the amount of time and effort put into something. While it would be nice to pay the artists more, I would find hard to justify paying $70 for a mesh or character, when thats around a weeks shopping.   

Also with the rare bit of commercial work - say in a magazine - you don't have a large area of space. One line tops at the most and thats assuming they even credit you properly or at all.
If i get a photo in my local paper it will say "contributed picture"   

Theres one thing here that hasn't been dicussed = all of this assumes you actually read the readme and licence file. Unless you have a problem with the model who really does that this every time ? 

ok, before it gets too out of hand, lemme say that my original post may/may not reflect how i actually feel/think/whatever, but merely sets the stage for the discussion. i tried to toss out anything that might come up on the subject along with a couple of facts. odds are there coulda been more, but hey, nobody's perfect, eh?

Of course each freebie provider sets the rules how to use his stuff. Who made it sets the rules.

My freestuff (it's not much, admitted) is free for commercial renders as well. Chances are slim that anyone would use it commercially, and if they do and get filthy rich with it, great.

I never download or keep any free stuff which isn't usable for commercial renders - not that I do them very often. Actually twice in my whole "carreer", on website logo, one for a comercial leafleat. I did not make real money with them, it was more to help out. As I did the first one, I had a hard time figuring out what I could use for that, since I never cared earlier, I never planned to do comercial artwork. When I got Poser 6 shortly afterwards, I threw away my former runtime and installed everything again, in new Runtimes. All is commercialy usable. Just in case.

Poser is not the right application for getting rich with it. I seriously doubt that even half of the merchants here make enough money to justify the time they spend on making the stuff. If I wanted money for it, I would sell it. I never liked the thought of limiting presents, and I see my free stuff as a present to the people who want to use it. But that's just me.

Quote - The readmes clearly state that you can't even archive it to a CD/DVD without his divine blessing.

I suspect that you may have misunderstood this clause.
The usual wording is that you can't include it in a collection that you give away or sell, not that you can't archive it for your own personal backup.

*"I suspect that you may have misunderstood this clause."

*This is my suspicion as well.. ...

I have a few free items here, and a few have commercial use restrictions. One of the reasons is I put commercial use restrictions on a few models is A) I didnot do all of the work and had help with the mesh or B) The still have the restriction from when they were sold at my site when I had a store.

I think if you are upset if you can't use it for commercial use, don't download it!

No harm no foul and no excuses!

I make some limited freebies, and I don't care if it used commercially. But if someone else does, and doesn't allow it to be used in that manor, it is thier decision. You don't download it if you can't use it the way you need to or want to! Problem solved!!! :)

I used to complain about the same thing, then I got a clue! So if I like a freebie and it is not ok to use commercially, I may ask  the creator, but generally I just say "Oh Well" and pass! (*saves space on my externals!)

Boy it does feel good not to be complaining all the time ;)

Hugs
Ariana

GOD BLESS ALL THE FREEBIE MAKERS!!! [throws self at all their lil' feets] You can use me for commercial & non-commercial use!

so apparently there's no debate.  if ya wanna sell somebody's freebie, pay 'em 50% of the gross.
Q.E.D.

I've dealt with this issue in the past and it's really a no-brainer.

In the real world, licensed products exist everywhere.  Many have restrictions with their license.  Sometimes, those restrictions are included because they are legally necessary.  For instance, there are plenty of products that can not be exported to certain countries outside of the United States.  Why?  Because, they may contain technical advancements that could aid a hostile nation.  This is "THE LAW" and not some whim of the creator.  Yet, any idiot can see that a cell phone computer chip IS going to find its way to someone that the Law would seek to deny.  But, the Law is there anyway, in order to provide recourse for prosecution.

Sometimes, restrictions exist to protect the economic interests of the creator.  This is very common in software.  Just because you can copy it and install it on 100000 machines, doesn't give you the right to do so.  You must buy a site license to copy one piece of software on several machines or, at least, purchase several registrations.  The OS that you are running, right now, is, most likely, bound by these restrictions.

Lastly, comes art.  For years, artists have been giving away pictures that have commercial restrictions.  Why?  Because, if someone wanted to they could just collect all the free pictures on the net, put them on a website, and sell them.  This is a) Counter to the desires of the creators who produced the free artwork for personal use, b) Allows another to personally profit from someone else's labors without any acknowledgment of their contribution and lastly c) an Artist lives entirely by their reputation and that is threatened when they are unable to receive credit for their own work.

Look at it this way:  Let's say that the game "Monopoly" was published by Parke Bros and offered to people for free so it could be play tested.  A competitor sees the word "Free" and grabs 20,000 copies of the game, puts a sticker with their name over Parker Bros logo and then sells the whole truckload to Toys R Us.  What is Parker Bros recourse if they did not have license restrictions with their product or were not otherwise protected by copyright law?

A true, commercial artists knows copyright law and how it effects their own work.  They will do all that they can to avoid treading into the realms of the unknown by using spurious leavings on the net without researching the licenses.  Another above said, (paraphrased) "Embrace your hobby and don't pose as a professional."  A professional will research the licenses before-hand and will not arbitrarily download work and use it willy-nilly in commercial products without paying specific, professional attention to this.  An amateur will not.

The creator has a right, by Law, to limit the use of their work.  By downloading that work, you agree to its restrictions of use, within reason. (Content use may not be as easily enforced because it is difficult to define but commercial use is extremely easy to define.)  That is the bottom line and no amount of "I can download it and that must mean I own it completely!" will change that.

Quote - GOD BLESS ALL THE FREEBIE MAKERS!!! > Quote -

Couldn't agree more. As I spend alot of my money just getting internet access, I wouldn't be able to make anything if I had to pay (exorberently) for the 3D models I use.

Freebies Uber Alles!

I've thought about this a bit lately and something came to mind about the commercial renders of free items.  I honestly do not believe this is a legitimate infringement - but whatever Im not going to debate that, lets pretend it is. 

I've known a few people who model during my little stint here, and I hear OFTEN of using RL references for modeling items.  So lets say Joe Generous Modeler, makes say a set of old style boots.  He uses various photo references from around the web to make his brilliant creation.  Then he ever so kindly donates his work to the community to use as a free item - with a small stipulation: 
You can use it, but not in any way in which you will ever make money from taking renders of it.
If you do, then you need to pay him.  Or you simply can't make pictures of his model and make money off your pictures. 

Ok - lets say this is reasonable.
Does he then go and give a portion of his proceeds to the people who made the original pictures that he modeled from?  Has anyone ever seen credit given in a readme for a piece of furniture used as a photo reference?  I've seen 3d.sk credits given and as far as photo references that were not purchased but just found via google images I've never even so much as seen one credit.  Maybe I've missed a few but it's certainly not the norm.

Anyway I think this angle has been completely overlooked.  Or somehow it's ok to copy thiers but not ours - in likeness of course, because a render of Joes model is certain not HIS model.
It is a render of his model -  a model made from a reference of a Sears chair is not a sears chair, it is a 3D model of one.  Where is the line?

Quote - My freestuff (it's not much, admitted) is free for commercial renders as well. > Quote -

My warmest congratulationst to you! I'm never sure if a "non-commercial use" clause is going to restrict my real use of them - if I put my finsihed project on a free site, for example, and had paying banner ads in the margin, is that commercial, for instance?

So, if I see "non-commercial use" on an object, I don't download it. I passed up a 3D model of a U-boat this morning for that reason.

I do not to think too deeply about  why people put restrictions on use of their freebies - if there are any restrictions on rendering I don't use the item.  There's plenty of good stuff around, and without it this would be a prohibitively expensive hobby.   The galleries on here and on other 3D sites would be a lot poorer without free stuff, so IMO freebie-makers should be a 'protected species' and moaning about them should be considered as being in poor taste.

If terms do not suit, move on and use something else.

Many thanks to all freebie makers - including the big guys like DAZ!

Regards
Peter
PS at one stage I was looking for a tomato ketchup bottle.  I found one for sale at $30, and to use it commercially one had to apply for permission from the trademark / design proprieters, i.e. Heinz.  Sounds daft at first, bu then I doubt if Heinz would be too keen on somebody producing some work that denigrated their product.
No, I did not buy it!

Added note:

You learn something new everyday.  I just learned in the Daz forums that apparently it is completely acceptable to bash the providers of free programs.  I guess programs must take alot less work than those individual models.  Consider me enlightened.

Shoulda stayed longer, jjroland. The DAZ forumites are equal opportunity bashers. You should
have SEEN them go after freebie makers on the thread I mention above. I rarely post there
because the 'Whine & Moan' Club is MUCH larger there than here. :)

Greywolf

***You learn something new everyday.  I just learned in the Daz forums that apparently it is completely acceptable to bash the providers of free programs.  I guess programs must take alot less work than those individual models.  Consider me enlightened.

***It is completely acceptable to bash anyone for anything in the Daz forums.  I've never seen such a place and, even tho I'm a member, I stay out of there...its depressing.  

I'm curious - has a freebie maker ever sucsessfully prosecuted someone who did not abide by thier clause? - it seems to be a damn dificult (and expensive) proposition - I for one am  (happily) a hobbyist  and I love the freebies but I dont think I would ever put conditions on something I gave away- but that's just me.

I don't know ...

I downloaded one that said I must stand on my head and do 3 complete spins before rendering.  I got 2 3/4 spin for sure, but my husband debates that last quarter turn.  Now I could really be in hot water with that provider, Im just holdin on to the hope that my hubby doesn't sell me up the river.

Pretty sure my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are on the line here  : /

=D  =D  =D  =D

Ok I'm in..
I think a creator should be able to set their own rules about how their stuff can be used... But.. yep I said the dreaded B word.

I know most of us are hobbyist but what if later down the road someone wants to buy some of our work? We now have to look over those images we have done and make sure we did not use one of the freebies that Do Not allow commercial renders. And if one of the images that someone wants to buy does you now have to track down the creator and see if you can figure out a way to get their permission. To me that is a big pain in the butt. I tend to download a LOT of freebies but if it says I can not use it for commercial renders then I usually just delete it off my system. Sorry but even though I don't think I am that good yet I am tons better then when I 1st started and just what if I can ever make some money off my pictures. Yep I want to be able to jump at the chance to make some money doing what I love heck I know I have spent way to much on Poser and DS stuff over the years making some of it back would be wonderful. I doubt that will ever happen to me, but if there is a chance I don't want to mess it up by using something in an image that is not for commercial renders. So yep they can make it and chose to not let me do commercial renders and I can choose Not to download it or to delete it before I ever can use it. Take care.

I've had people bid on a couple of pieces of mine and I try to keep meticulous track of what I use in each scene (It's a PITA, but it saves me from trouble later.)
 
99.9% of the time, if I contact a creator and ask nicely not only do they give permission, 9 times out of 10 they don't want anything from me. (I put back funds for them regardless and it is always apreciated--hey, who doesn't like "found money"!)

So, to me, I don't worry about restrictions for use as most of the time I don't render anything for sale and if someone expresses an interest, I can always contact the content creator and ask.

Perhaps that is the key thing, ask.

I always give thanks to the freebie creators. I remember when I started with poser, I didn't buy hardly anything, freebies were my friends! Now I have accumulated a fairly large "purchased" load of goods, but there are still those favorite freebies that just "make" a render work.

Freebie content creators fill a much needed area, and they are my heros if for no other reason than I can't model my way out of a wet paper sack!  ;-)