Personally, I don't understand the monomania to prosecute telecoms that were told to cooperate with the US government.  If they had refused, they would have been brought up on charges for NOT cooperating.  If anyone did anything wrong, it was the executive branch, and they're legally allowed to spy for national security reasons.  Just as if the police would commandeer your car to use to catch criminals, you should not be held criminally responsible for them breaking traffic laws for doing so.  And if you refuse to allow your car to be commandeered by a law enforcement officer in the performance of his duties... you can be brought up on obstruction charges.

So, I just don't get the zeal some have to "get" the telecoms, and fully support the immunity for them.  I just say that if it can be proven that the executive branch did something illegal with their powers of spying, they need to be nailed to the wall.

@MBoncher I will tell you,,,,  this seems to be a sincere question...

It is a federal crime for anyone including the president to have asked a civilian company or anyone to help spy on their citizens without a court order....!    without a warren!!   It is a felony crime..!  that is the monomania you hear about....    It has been the law since 1974...   or so...  you need to get a warren to tap phones or look at personal records...  normally you have three days to tell the court..  you can tap a phone now and in 72 hours you need to tell the court and get a warren...   This is recorded and kept for record...    without a warren there is no record...!    no one knows what, who, why is going on...!

They will tell you it is for terrorism....  but are you sure, are you sure all those taps are for that purpose..?  I don't...  I feel it in my bones there are political advantages in mind..

Last word...  a few telecom companies did refuse and nothing happened to them... 
Of course  they are probably in the unethical shit house list...  but these companies are heroes...  They stood firm and said NO!,,  not without a court order...
the other companies were either too scared or in bed with the administration.. they just bent over...

This administration wanted to do it in secrecy even from the law it self... why? ask your self why?  Now, they just killed our only guardian against wrong doings towards us citizens,,,

Hope you get it...   if not and want to talk more feel
free to e-mail me...

I'm glad these postings are being civil,,,,

This is it I'm out of here...   No more posts from me..  

First off Tom, I’ll totally accept those congratulations…thank you very much. It’s about time that partisan politics took a back seat to this country’s security problems. Eh…that is if you think there is a security problem in this country to begin with. If not, I don’t know what rock you’ve been hiding under.

As for your lamenting the exaggerated demise of the Constitution, as I said in a prior post, the Constitution is a breathing, living instrument designed to form a cohesion around our society (not the rest of the world) that must evolve to incorporate all of our nation’s future societies and that is why amendments were instituted in the original design (Constitution), and that is why they have been used throughout our short history as a nation.:

"Article V. – Amendment

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate."

So our forefathers did consider that times would change in this great new nation. And with those changes would come new and unforeseen situations within this great nation. Originally you had said before editing your post that it was a sad time for our Constitution and a sad time for our country or some such hyperbole and many would disagree including it seems the predominantly democratic congress as it turns out.

It is not that the Constitution is a partisan setback but the people who need to cater to their alter ego and idealistic shortcomings and partisan loyalty that’s a setback. Your rights are not being “killed”, they are being amended to better serve the country as a whole in a modern time, it would be self-serving and therefore selfish otherwise.

How far is too far? As far as need be to protect this country without infringing on its people’s (citizen’s) rights. This is what has been said here all along. As long as there is oversight (vigilance…whatever you chose to call it)! But make no bones about it, it is needed. That is…unless you have a better solution. But of course, the politically challenged, those that would rather blather, kick and scream holy murder would rather sit back and chastise those that are trying to do something productive about the situation without them offering a better alternative solution. No solutions, just unproved theories, belly aching and lollygagging. This is where it becomes as apparent as a bare baby’s butt that there is a political agenda. And it is a travesty when a tragedy such as 9/11 has to be used solely for political gains.

These people don’t care about 9/11, they worry instead that another republican will be elected. That is their prime concern. Anything having to do with George W. Bush they want nothing to do with. They hate him and what he stands for with a passion, even if it means handing the country over to terrorists. Oh sure, why not give them constitutional rights? Why listen in on their next terrorist strike and avoid it when it means we’ve violated their Constitutional rights? Simply absurd!

“It is a federal crime for anyone including the president to have asked a civilian company or anyone to help spy on their citizens without a court order....!    without a warren!!   It is a felony crime..!”

Where does it say this? Show us where it says this. Or is this more hyperbole? Even if you should come up with a source the newly voted bill from the largely democratic congress just squashed it 69-28 as posted above!

“This administration wanted to do it in secrecy even from the law it self... why? ask your self why?”

This question is an admission of political partisanship and agenda (not to mention it smacks of conspiracy theory innuendo…time to bring out the aluminum foil cap and the Prozac).

Simply put…it’s a FISA law to be secret as if you didn’t read this somewhere in this thread! And who instituted FISA? Surely not George W. Bush! Now I’ve said this before, I’m no fan of G.W.B. and I dare say Obama (or Obamanation a word play on abomination as it’s coming to be known) has a few interesting economic points. But it chills me to the bone how he stands on terror. So there’s no real reason why I would be defending this unless I thought it was needed.

I’m an Independent and Independents have historically decided the Presidency. I thought it would be important to state this claim because I can see where people reading this thread would automatically come to the decision that I’m a right wing conservative…I’m not! I was involved in the Vietnam anti-war movement as I was in the March for Civil Rights. Not because it was the “thing” to do but because I believed in them.

Okay, then the ones who committed the crime are the ones who demanded the help of the Telecoms, not the telecoms.  They're just as much the victims as the rest of us.  But then again, I don't agree that the courts should be involved on spying that is done on foreign combatants and their covert agents.  As I believe Senator Kerry put it the other day, "Unless you have Al Quaeda on your speed dial, you have nothing to worry about."

Then again, I believe the Legislative and Judiciary branches are doing their best to expand their power and erode that of the Executive branch in ways that are unconstitutional.  Then again, the branches of government have been "finding rights" for their own power expansion since Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson.

Isnt it required by european law for internet service providers to log ALL our internet traffic for a considerable amount of time so the state can sniff around in them at will if they think its neccesary? And wouldnt that mean this law is already effectively in action throughout many european countries?

Bring on the CCTVs and people watching them. The street is public space and what you do there is not private. I live in a building with no cameras in the elevators and hallways and I can tell you when you visit "Watch your step". Nothing says fun like stepping into a puddle of liquid when entering an elevator here.

I an not comfortable with the govt spying on US citizens. Yes, there are threats and they need to be stopped but I wonder how far they will go. Lets not forget that the more info the govt collects on its citizens, the more chances that it could fall into the wrong hands.

All it takes is one hard core "Patriot" to say "Most liberals are terrorist friends and they should be eliminated". It would be real easy to make a list from the data collected.

If you talk a lot about the Koran or talk about the poor conditions at Gitmo bay, are you going to attract attention? Remember the US on spurious info rounded up a bunch of Japanese people and put them in camps. What happens to people who point out the problems or crticize policy?
They could be seen as potential terrorists or real terrorists.

I bet that its an uphill battle to say "No" to the people who want to invade more privacy.

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2008/July/08-nsd-634.html

Nothing happening here, move right along to September 10th. All a government conspiracy. Move along now...

Yes there are threats out there, I will not deny that.
What makes me uncomfortable is how far we should go to counter them?

Having such power and no checks is asking for abuse.
I also think that having too much power will make it easy for people to be sloppy with the term "terrorist". Be too critical of the govt and you could be labeled a "terrorist".

Do not forget the other abuses of power here in the US, the wrongful internment of Japanese Americans or the "Red Scare" of Senator McCarthy. Those are just the 2 I remember, bet there are more.

Asking for assurances that the people who protect us from threats that they do not abuse their power is not the same as rooting for the enemy or being a terrorist tool.

Quote - ...All it takes is one hard core "Patriot" to say "Most liberals are terrorist friends and they should be eliminated". It would be real easy to make a list from the data collected...

You got that all backwards.
Liberals ARE the threat. Liberals are the ones pushing for centralized government control and expanded government power. They always have been.
Liberals are the driving force behind the welfare state, and total dependence of the population on government support, and government regulated education, energy, manufacturing, transportation, etc.
Everything that you would (or should) expect from a totalitarian communist government w/ a fascist economy.

 LOL
Liberal doesnt neccesarily equal communist :-P

'Classical' liberals aren't communists; and there are still some of those around, but not many.
Same can said about 'classic' conservatives. They are a dying breed too.

It's all neoconservative and 'progressive socialist' liberals now. They are both dictatorial populist totalitarians; like Bush's "I don't have a problem with dictatorship, as long as I'm the dictator" statement.
Two faces of the same coin; same way that fascism and marxism are essentially identical in practice (though diametrically oppossed in theory). Both are aimed at centralization and expansion of governmental control. The 'two parties' of American politics are now republicrat and demublican. I can barely tell any difference between the two anymore.

I was raised on the idea that "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help" were the worst words that you could ever hear coming out of somebody's mouth. LOL
Now, a whole generation is coming of voting age that has been taught to rely on the government for everything; to trust the government; and to never question the government... Scary stuff, IMO

Now for a tell-it-vision 'special report':
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"
"Trust the government, the government is your friend"...

dvlenk6
Liberals ARE the threat. Liberals are the ones pushing for centralized government control and expanded government power. They always have been.
Liberals are the driving force behind the welfare state, and total dependence of the population on government support, and government regulated education, energy, manufacturing, transportation, etc.
<
Whee hoo, I like a good fight but this is getting tiresome.
This is a 3d forum.

Conservatives believe that a pure capitalist society will make things better but it won't. There are things that are just not cost effective for a company to do. Also relying on the basic goodness of companies is naive and dangerous. Very few companies will choose safety/public well being over profits. Heaven forbid that somebody has to tell profit driven companies "No, you can't do this because its out of bounds". Be glad that we have somebody testing drugs to make sure they work or maybe you want to go back to the 1800s and snake oil times?

Its hard to get credit now because banks got messed by derivatives and they are trying to recoup their losses. Oh yeah, derivatives were not regulated.

Let you in on a secret, the Govt, Liberal or Conservative, has control of our educational system. Try to teach condoms and safe sex in schools and see how much federal funding your school will receive. Can't teach abstinence and safe sex because someone high up in the govt has decided that teenagers are not smart enough to decide. I bet you that a conservative made that decision.

Not much good will come of letting businesses doing what they wish with no regard to public safety/well being. Now how much regulation is up to debate. But a few regulations is light years away from Centralization of private assets.

I see nothing wrong with helping out people who are down on their luck, isn't that a good thing to do? Help them out and get them on their feet and productive. Everyone can get a bad run of luck and could use some help once in a while. Thats not a welfare state.

Now Welfare is probably a mess why? Because you got politicians who have to prove that they are worth the votes so they tack on stuff, no matter if it does not really help, it just shows that they are busy.

Blind faith in ideologies like Conservatism/Liberalism is going to ruin this country. These ideaologies reduce the sources of solutions, its like having half  or third of a playbook instead of a whole one. Our problems do not have that weakness.

People are tired of "Business as Usual", thats why Obama is so popular. Even McCain talking about using the free market for health care is old school and wrong. Health care has been free market for years and health care is still too expensive. Health care companies make money by signing up more people and paying out less. So if you have a pre existing condition, well too bad.

I figure with all this yelling it will turn out like what they say in the jibjab cartoon but I hope we get something better.
http://sendables.jibjab.com/sendables/1191/time_for_some_campaignin#

Somebody else on this thread has said people need to get away from the partisian stuff and start dealing with the problems facing this nation as Americans. Anything else is not going to work.

Entitlement programs are socialist tools and need vast amounts of money to care for its citizens which invariably leads to higher taxes and bigger government to disperse said programs with subsequently more government intervention in peoples’ lives (nanny State). It also leads to higher unemployment because there is no incentive for people to work when the State can provide for them and give them everything they need. High unemployment infers less taxes paid into a system that depends on taxes for entitlement programs. Civil unrest (including higher crime rates) follows mass unemployment. Capitalism and corporations fuel economies. Capitalism provides an incentive for personal and social improvement and growth that neither Communism nor Socialism can provide.

Socialism was implemented in the Soviet Union in 1917.  In 1989 the Soviet Union collapsed. Capitalism was implemented well over 200 years ago.  Today the USA is the most prosperous nation in the history of the world. Capitalism was implemented in West Germany and West Berlin following World War II. West Germany and West Berlin prospered and living standards blossomed. Socialism was implemented in East Germany and East Berlin following World War II. East Germany and East Berlin stagnated and living standards deteriorated.

All these social systems can be corrupted by corrupt people but which one offers better checks and balances?

Without a doubt big business should be held accountable to the people that work to make them rich and the people that buy their products. Historically big business never provided for their workers until guilds and unions pressured them to compensate. There are necessary evils everywhere.

I further agree that some type of medical healthcare system is needed other than Medicaid and Medicare for the workers of this country. How that should be setup is another question. Certainly it shouldn’t be a free entitlement…a gift from a socialist government, but paid for somehow. Personally I would say take back all that money that goes to all those rogue countries that hate us and put it to use here for those that need it. The money would be in the billions of dollars and it’s tax payers money anyway.

Hum…this is a hard one to figure. Let’s see…8% probability to become pregnant if you (women) take birth control pills. 15% probability if you use condoms. 0% probability to become pregnant if you abstain from sex. The math speaks clearly. 52% chance that a young and inexperienced teenager with raging hormones coursing through their veins (as if life isn’t complicated enough for them) can make the right decision when the time comes. We can teach you safe sex as a teenager with contraception and chances are you will go and experiment with your new found knowledge and take your chances at getting pregnant. Let the education system handle my personal obligations and responsibilities toward my family and decide for me how I should educate my child in matters of sex. In fact, they will even provide abortions if the contraceptives fail! I don’t think so! Yes, I agree, the government should get out of the sex education business altogether (another example of the nanny State)!

People may indeed be tired of “business as usual” but Obama isn’t going to change that. He’s already business as usual. It’s an illusion…”of the wool over sheep’s eyes” that’s being weaved for his fans (it’s all expertly choreographed). Hasn’t anyone noticed how he has vacillated from left to center then back again lately? Furthermore, he has no experience whatsoever as a leader. He talks a good talk but it’s very questionable that he will walk the walk when it matters most and he has nothing to show for in his few years in congress. He just talks pretty but then again so do most bullshit artists. They love him in Europe because he embraces their socialist liberal views but the last time I heard, Europe isn’t voting in this coming election.

Not that McCain is any real winner either but he’s been around a while and does have a few things to show for it. But if you ask me I’d say that there will be two democrats running for office this next election. And so the democrats can’t lose either way! I don’t like either candidate.

I just don’t understand. All throughout this thread we’ve been saying yes, spy on the terrorists…PATRIOT Act is ok as well as FISA as long as there is oversight to protect citizens. Just stop the SOB’s before another few thousand innocent victims perish. Yet we keep seeing posts that start with: “…what if’s”. Typical left wing liberal rhetorical home spun fantasy concoction fabrication lead-in. There’s no “what if’s”. No conspiracy theory here. No need for aluminum foil caps and we can throw out the Prozac. CCTV’s in privately owned public areas (like hallways, lobby’s and elevators in private buildings) are acceptable to me.

I feel that things like McCarthyism, the Japanese and Italian roundup in encampments, tragic as it may be, of the 2nd World War are justified given the extreme conditions of the time and for lack of a better solution. Millions of people were dying in a war worldwide. Espionage was rampant our security as a nation at stake. Extreme conditions warrant extreme measures. We can only learn from those experiences.

And yes…political correctness and political partisanship are killing this country.

Quest
And yes…political correctness and political partisanship are killing this country.
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Ding Ding!
We have a winner!
With that great post, I will sign off.