Quote - > Quote - GND is a VERY distinct morph that really looks like nothing else in the Poser community.  It also sells really well.  It is not an accident that the morphs look almost identical.  DAZ has always been a shrewd marketing company, they know what they're doing.

It's distinct in that it is a custom morph, which is unusual in itself for a body morph. What I find questionable is whether it is so distinct that no-one who was doing a custom morph using a human female as reference could possibly do something with a similar outline independently. Yes, there are similarities in the outline, but if you actually look at the shape closely you will see there are many differences. Even if it were an intentional resemblance, there is nothing immoral or illegal about it -- it is commonplace here and in other markets to follow the money.

Okay... GND looks like nothing anyone else has done in the Poser community.  Absolutely nothing else.  The only characters that are similar are Aery Soul's, but those are also extremely distinct from everything else as well and have a radically different look from other Poser characters and GND.  This is not a question of two people doing the same thing independently.  There's no way that DAZ is that naive and uninformed after being the defining company in the Poser community for years.

It's like when Microsoft copied the Mac OS in the late 80's.  It wasn't an accident...

*yep, first the bad news: it'll be 15 simoleons for an eyelash texture

then the worse news: ya download it, only to find ya already bought
the same tex 3 times previously.

Ah,  I don't mind as long as they add an extra exclaimation mark.  That way I can differentiate between the two.

while this is a thread about the morphs, it has also touched upon the issue of price point, and that leads me to re-endorse the great skin vendor for V3 and V4 and other models, namely MaskEdit. This morning I received an email that his skins are on sale here at Rendo because there is one product (out of 4) that I don't own for V4 and it is in my wishlist.

Within each product you get three complete skin sets. So, four times three that means he has already released 12 sets of skins for V4, with plenty of variety and all 'of a piece' with regard to quality. The head resolution is 4000x4000 should you need it (same as the DAZ hi-res and the Elite sets) and they come with bump and specularity maps. He is scrupulous about no-makeup, no highlights.

The price? $9.50 for each set of three. On sale for $7.12

I fail to see what the DAZ Elites have over this level of quality, especially for the Poser user. The Elite shaders are not very good in Poser, in my opinion, nor do you get ANY mat poses, let alone the "control center' mat pose setup MaskEdit provides.

If I sound like a pitch man for this vendor, I assure it is spontaneous...I just want to support excellence in the marketplace at an barely to be believed price.

::::: Opera :::::

P.S. if you like the look of Elite Amy for her freckles, all the more reason to check out MaskEdit. I doubt you will find the shoulder stretch problem with his freckle skins.

Quote - Okay... GND looks like nothing anyone else has done in the Poser community.  Absolutely nothing else.  The only characters that are similar are Aery Soul's, but those are also extremely distinct from everything else as well and have a radically different look from other Poser characters and GND.  This is not a question of two people doing the same thing independently.  There's no way that DAZ is that naive and uninformed after being the defining company in the Poser community for years.

It's like when Microsoft copied the Mac OS in the late 80's.  It wasn't an accident...

Well, as I don't have GND, I wouldn't have known of the similarities if you hadn't commented. It certainly looks to be a great product, with many loyal fans. I've shyed away from these vendors previously because their products are so distinctive and widely used, though I've come close to buying GND several times. And now I see it is on sale for a very good price. I just asked for a refund on the Lana texture as I didn't get results worthy of the hoopla, so maybe that money can get me the original Louis Vuitton of V4 morphs. :) Edit to add: does anyone have a close-up of the GND face texture without make-up?

*I don't like the trend that these issues could start either...

Me neither.  So,  I'm going back to work on Jane.   

Quote - Here ya go...

Excellent, thank you.

Quote - *I don't like the trend that these issues could start either...

Me neither.  So,  I'm going back to work on Jane.   

                                                                                                                                                                  Be careful Patorak,  better not let Daz get to good a look at her. She might just end up in their store.

*Be careful Patorak,  better not let Daz get to good a look at her. She might just end up in their store.

*LOL! I'll check my firewall settings. 

Oh and don't even get me started on these "Elite Upgrades".  You have to pay to upgrade each piece of clothing you already bought so it can handle three more morphs?  Talk about gouging your customers...

Maybe that's actually a good thing because then I can use the Utopian morph to make the DAZ clothes fit GND 4 :).

*"Oh and don't even get me started on these "Elite Upgrades".  You have to pay to upgrade each piece of clothing you already bought so it can handle three more morphs?  Talk about gouging your customers..."

*I agree for the most part.  First it was the A4 upgrades, now the Elite ones?  Come on.  When V4 first came out, so many of the vendors upgraded items such as hair for FREE.  That builds a much better rapport with customers, IMO.

BUT, if you own a utility like Dimension3D's Morphing Clothes (here in RMP), there's absolutely no need to purchase these upgrades.  :-)

"Maybe that's actually a good thing because then I can use the Utopian morph to make the DAZ clothes fit GND 4"

LOL. I was thinking the same thing.

I returned the Elite bundle, will just buy back the morphs. I have found some good use with them.

 Dimension3D has a really cool app that will transfer any morph to any clothes item. I think it is like 40 bucks in the market place. At 1.99 an upgrade vs wanting to put the morph you need into a clothes item you already own....pretty simple math IMHO.

Grichter, it is only $20 in the market place actually, which is not much more (only $5 I believe) than the upgrade price for the few selections of V4 clothing that Daz is offering for upgrade in its bundle pack.   It is much more bang for the buck, hands down. :)

I'm not going to buy into this elite "HYPE".  Quite frankly, I've got some great textures by outstanding artists, most from here.  I find it a bit repulsive that you have to update all those clothes and the prices to me are just insane.  While I understand and appreciate all the hard work the vendors did on the textures, I truly dont feel the bundle is worth it at all.  I dont do a lot of portrait type stuff and always have to resize most of the textures I get anyways, so having elite in my runtime with all upgraded clothes is of no benefit to me what so ever. I wish they would stop catering to V4 and get on with the M4.....

I heard M4 was delayed.  Seams,  he ran off to ask the wizard of Daz for an attached penis.

*"I heard M4 was delayed.  Seams,  he ran off to ask the wizard of Daz for an attached penis."

*

If that is the case, patorak, we may never see him!  ACK!!  LOL...

Quote - I heard M4 was delayed.  Seams,  he ran off to ask the wizard of Daz for an attached penis.

do attached penis' exist at daz???  nooo, cant be..

I like to have a lot of different models so that I can have several figures in a scene without looking like they all come from the the deepest, darkest Appalachian mountain family. (lol) So I got V4 to add to my collection. I don't know about those specific morphs, as I bought the basics, V4++, and the muscle morphs but have been really disappointed with her so far. Then I picked up A4 and found that she was a V4 morph set. Bleh!!!!

So, I decided not to buy anything else for her/them. If i can't make or transfer it for them, they don't get it. Managed to bring over a few pieces of clothing for the two of them without more than the usual pain and agony, so I thought, cool--not a total waste of a boatload of money.

Then I tried to build a texture for her. Holy bat shiza! It is, hands down THE WORST template setup I have EVER seen. A separate map to crosswalk between limbs, torso, and head with EVERY SINGLE PIECE set at a different ratio. Even the pieces on the same template. So the torso and ears are different sizes, and NEITHER ONE matches the head template. Or the limbs template. So I sat down to at least color code the seams to make matching things a tiny bit easier. MISTAKE! They cut her apart worse than Frankie's monster. Nothing lines up, the seams even seem to spiral around the limbs. Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

I give up. Miki may not be as 'classically' beautiful as Vic, but at least she isn't a nightmare to work with.

*do attached penis' exist at daz???  nooo, cant be..

The wizard has one I'm sure.  You know,  It's rumored that they accually have a penis farm where they grow the attached ones.

*I like to have a lot of different models so that I can have several figures in a scene without looking like they all come from the the deepest, darkest Appalachian mountain family.

You just described my family!  You know,  we have kin folk we keep chained up in caves in the hollers.  They're just too wild to be let loose.

Quote - do attached penis' exist at daz???  nooo, cant be..
The wizard has one I'm sure.  You know,  It's rumored that they accually have a penis farm where they grow the attached ones.

So he no longer just gives out hearts and ah... brains..

• I found out how they grow 'em.  Utah pin up girls.

Quote - So he no longer just gives out hearts and ah... brains..

lzy24......You know that's a line for male jokes, don't you? :m_tongue2:

Pat...you crack me up. :m_laugh:

jewell...That's why they make merchant resources. :m_wink:

Quote - It's distinct in that it is a custom morph, which is unusual in itself for a body morph. What I find questionable is whether it is so distinct that no-one who was doing a custom morph using a human female as reference could possibly do something with a similar outline independently. Yes, there are similarities in the outline, but if you actually look at the shape closely you will see there are many differences. Even if it were an intentional resemblance, there is nothing immoral or illegal about it -- it is commonplace here and in other markets to follow the money.

The shape is (in my eyes) much too similar to be not intentional, given the popularity of GND 4. Is it illegal? Certainly not. Is it immoral? In my eyes, yes. It's a bit too simple to "follow the money" by copying someone elses design, even if it's legal. But that's just me, others obvious have other standards.

Before the jury is in on this people may want to know that all 3 final "Elite" morph shapes were handed off to the DAZ PA community on February 13th. From the best we can tell that was about a month prior to GND4's release which was the first time we saw her. Even with the similarities shown in the image above, one can also focus on the differences like the scapula, lower back  and upper buttocks and as Gabriel has pointed out the arm thickness. Another thing to mention is that ultimately we are working from the same Victoria 4 rig so proportions are going to remain identical no matter what changes are made in the topology.

I think some people may be missing the point of Elite. It is not just one shape but 3 very different default shapes that are designed to be used in combination with each other. That is were the uniqueness and power of this product is. Take a look at the various images that people are posting with it and judge for yourself. Our Eutopian shape is definitely more athletic than prior Victoria shapes but our other two shapes are likewise more detailed and realistic than similar shapes in Victoria 4. It is not a replacement for GND (or any other morph character for Victoria for that matter).

I have always loved Gabriel's work and still do. His products will continue to stand out as they always have.

Dan Farr

Dan, for future Elite hi-res textures: please do not let the producers of the product pick a model with permanent or temporary makeup like Amy. Those who want makeup can add it on; those who need a completely naked face cannot remove eyeliner/eybrow pencil/tattoo.

Also, how about a set of MAT poses for Poser?

Sincerely,
::::: Opera :::::

reposting the link to my comparison animation in case some people are not reading the entire thread:

in the first frame, utopia is on the right
(therefore, GND is on utopia's right)
Utopia has the somewhat larger, somewhat sloping breasts

http://jrdonohue.com/gndutopia.mov
6.3 MB quicktime

I'll leave it on my webserver for a few weeks, if you need it after that PM me.

::::: Opera ::

hi Dan,
despite being released at the beginning of March 2008, GND4's morph was done in July of 2007. final re-tweaking and the texture was done at the beginning of December 2007, and i re-did the texture from scratch in 2008 (i was very busy in the latter half of 2007 which accounted for the fact that it took so long to release - what can i say :( ).
there were a half-dozen people that i sent preview images of GND4 to throughout her development;  i will definitely play my cards closer to my chest from now until a product's release.

I still believe that there are too many similarities - to both GND2 and GND4. if it truly is a coincidence and the similarities are unintentional, then whoever made it (or it was contracted out to) should have picked up on them and tweaked it to be more original - seeing as it is 5 months after the release of GND4 and everyone knows what she looks like by now. if so many customers are picking up on the similarities independently of each other then surely the creator should have as well and this should have been addressed during the product's lengthy beta/pre-release process. let me emphasize again that regardless how it was arrived at there is absolutely nothing illegal about it - but as a merchant who tries to make characters that are different i feel that my toes have been stepped on.

i still stand behind what i said earlier: there isnt just one attractive female body style - there are thousands of them. there is no need to work in the exact same direction as another existing morph as there are many different paths you can follow that end in an attractive morph.

ive mellowed out a bit over the years, so while the old me would have sat here making an ass of myself and this into a 400+ post thread which would still end in an inevitable impasse, nowadays id rather just keep moving forward. so with that in mind, customers can look for a free update to GND4 soon that will restore her uniqueness and add even more content.

cheers,
-gabriel

there were a half-dozen people that i sent preview images of GND4 to throughout her development;  i will definitely play my cards closer to my chest from now until a product's release

Steam engine time.  Figure of speech derived from the fact that the steam engine seemed to appear from several different people in widely separate locations at the same time.  Also seem in the development of calculus, and the airplane (the Wright's just barely made it as first).

It happens.

I still believe that there are too many similarities - to both GND2 and GND4. if it truly is a coincidence and the similarities are unintentional, then whoever made it (or it was contracted out to) should have picked up on them and tweaked it to be more original

Why?  Assuming it was coincidental, and no foul play involved by all parties, if creators of any form had to change gears just because someone came out with something similar, nothing would ever get produced.

Writers have long used the mantra that there are no original stories to get over the fact that sometimes they'll produce something that unintentionally looks like something else, or that two similar works will come out at the same time.  Apparently visual artists haven't come to that realization yet.

sidebar: Sorry, but the Wright brothers had no serious contenders. They invented the science of aerodynamics and control of a lifting wing. There were other dreamers pushing forward, but no one actually performing the scientific and engineering core research that enabled them to get off the ground. The Wrights did the deep work, they invented practical heavier than air flight. If you have other facts, please state who the other contenders were who almost beat them.

The above is a factual issue; it does not mean I agree or don't agree with your point about the 'steam engine effect.'

::::: Opera :::::

Gabriel,

I appreciate your understanding on this and for taking the mellow approach. I hoped that I have learned to mellow a bit over the years as well. Just for the record, I will say emphatically that we never saw any of your work in progress images, model or anything related to GND4 until she was released publicly in March which was after we locked down the figure. I still believe that the GND series is one of the best works I have seen and I don't believe people view Elite as a replacement for her. With the 3 different shapes "Elite" is focused around being versatile and for spinning up unique .

Patorak, I don't don't know if you are addressing me with your question about the Jane shape but I cannot see why you would not be able to include that shape in your figure. If you were addressing someone else I am sorry for jumping in.

I did want to address one other thing mentioned above, I believe by Patorak as well. DAZ is still focused on this market and is not jumping trains to the game market. The mogware partnership is around creating a pipeline for existing content to be ported to game and virtual world environments. Our focus there is more towards end user adaptation although we have seen a ton of interest from Game Developers as well. I believe It is all in our interest to expand the market and create opportunities for both creators and customers alike.

Dan

Cool!

Quote - OK.  Here's Supermodel jane.  You can clearly see she needs to get her ass to an all you can eat restaurant,  but that's beside the point.  Now her shape is similiar to other supermodel shapes.  Now my question is this, because of similarities,  would there be a problem including this in our morph package.

If her BMI is under 10 she may be banned from the catwalks. That brings me to another idea. If existing clothes were turned into dynamic clothes they should hang around her pretty well without need for updates.

Quote - > Quote - So he no longer just gives out hearts and ah... brains..

lzy24......You know that's a line for male jokes, don't you? :m_tongue2:

Pat...you crack me up. :m_laugh:

jewell...That's why they make merchant resources. :m_wink:

gooodness me, either my brain is fried or I am so missing this joke. LOL.... I need to read more often.

Quote - Blackhearted said:
i still stand behind what i said earlier: there isnt just one attractive female body style - there are thousands of them. there is no need to work in the exact same direction as another existing morph as there are many different paths you can follow that end in an attractive morph.

Amen to that!
It's very disappointing to see that DAZ ended up with such a close morph to GND!

I want to make a comment about some comments that have been made here, but I don't want this thread locked.
Here is what I see, I neither own GND4 nor V4 Elite. I am actually tired of V4 altogether and started using V3 and V2 again more often. I cannot wait too see the final of Plain Jane and the figure Phatom3d is working on. 
Back to V4 Elite, as will all the issues I have read about on several forums I don't think I will purchase that product ever. I can see spending on 3 morphs that with time and effort I could possible make my self if I spent the time.
I am looking at Blackhearted's GND4, I might purchase it, but I think I will purchase the GND2 first.

* I believe It is all in our interest to expand the market and create opportunities for both creators and customers alike.

I agree.  I also believe that with a billion dollar industry there is room enough at the table for all. 
And that competition should be tempered with co-operation.  Also,  let's not devalue this market like the Arch Viz and Poser market for in the words of president McKinley,  "  No country has ever prospered that devalued itself. " 

*gooodness me, either my brain is fried or I am so missing this joke. LOL.... I need to read more often.

I wonder if it's an inside joke with women?  I'll watch some Oprah and see if I can find out. 

Quote - Why?  Assuming it was coincidental, and no foul play involved by all parties, if creators of any form had to change gears just because someone came out with something similar, nothing would ever get produced.

Writers have long used the mantra that there are no original stories to get over the fact that sometimes they'll produce something that unintentionally looks like something else, or that two similar works will come out at the same time.  Apparently visual artists haven't come to that realization yet.

However, GND2 and GND4 are very very similar body types, and both very popular and well known. 
With GND2 being around for a few years, I find this claim of accidentally arriving to the look of this level of similarity and uniqueness very hard to believe.
It would be more like two people accidentally writing War and Peace.

Reminds me the other day I was doing laundry, and found a pack of cigarettes and a lighter in my stepson's jeans pocket. He's trying to convince me they're not his, he was just holdng them for a friend.

And if it was that accidental... Being that GND moprhs are so popular, how come this morph didn't raise an eyebrow or two at DAZ. If it was my business, I'd be concerned about releasing and hyping a product that is so similar to another well known product.
Whether it's a big oversight or done on purpose, ether way it doesn't look very cool (to say the least)

There are many other very attractive body shapes that DAZ could have made. If DAZ is are that much out of ideas, I'll send them some photos of the gals on my stepdaughter's college swim team (18-25 year olds). There's easy 20 different body types and shapes, all very slender and athletic and drop dead gorgeous, and different looking from GND.

Quote - ------------------------------------------------------------------------
sidebar: Sorry, but the Wright brothers had no serious contenders. They invented the science of aerodynamics and control of a lifting wing. There were other dreamers pushing forward, but no one actually performing the scientific and engineering core research that enabled them to get off the ground. The Wrights did the deep work, they invented practical heavier than air flight. If you have other facts, please state who the other contenders were who almost beat them.

---

The above is a factual issue; it does not mean I agree or don't agree with your point about the 'steam engine effect.'

::::: Opera :::::

They did not invent the science of aerodynamics.  Isaac Newton published work on air resistance, George Cayley distinguished between lift and drag and researched on aerodymanic shapes (he is, incidentally, called the Father of Aerodynamics), the first wind tunnel was built in 1871 by Francis Wenham who, incidentally, was a member of the Royal Aeronautical Society, founded in 1866, the year before Wilbur was born (and 5 years before Orville).

I had a list, but then found a more convenient one.  Look here.  This sentence summarizes it neatly:  "While the 1903 Flyer was clearly a historically important test vehicle, its near-mythical status in American imagination has obscured its place as part of a continuing development program that eventually led to the Wrights' mastery of controlled flight in 1905."

The one major thing the Wrights did bring to the table was their work on control surfaces, allowing better control of powered flight.  This isn't to diminish their actual accomplishments (control surfaces proved the critical factor in sustained, safe, powered flight), but otherwise nothing they did stood out from other work being done at the time.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - So he no longer just gives out hearts and ah... brains..

lzy24......You know that's a line for male jokes, don't you? :m_tongue2:

gooodness me, either my brain is fried or I am so missing this joke. LOL.... I need to read more often.

**You haven't heard where most men keep their brains? Or which head they really think with? Maybe it is just  a "inside joke with women" as Pat surmises.  grin

As to the subject at hand, I kind of wish that Dan had addressed the issues with the textures that have been mentioned while he was here. And the fact that the ones made for Poser don't have MAT poses. Call me lazy or whatever, but V4 has many, many surface areas to place textures on and having to go into the Material room to place each and everyone is not a selling point to me.
**

While I am prominent in calliing for the MAT pose, it is NOT true that you have to assign the materials one at a time.

:::::: Opera :::::

Quote - * 
*I agree.  I also believe that with a billion dollar industry there is room enough at the table for all.

/me blinks

Billion? If the ALL the poser marketplaces combined had half of that, I'd be amazed. Don't forget how cheap EF sold all of poser developement for just 6 months ago.

Quote - As to the subject at hand, I kind of wish that Dan had addressed the issues with the textures that have been mentioned while he was here. And the fact that the ones made for Poser don't have MAT poses. Call me lazy or whatever, but V4 has many, many surface areas to place textures on and having to go into the Material room to place each and everyone is not a selling point to me.

The Material room is where textures belong -- the MAT poses were a convenience before there were material collections. You don't need to apply each material by hand -- a material collection applies all textures just like a MAT pose. In fact, if you prefer the pz2, you can change an .mc6 file to a MAT -- just open it in a text editor like notepad, replace the line "mtlCollection" with "figure" and resave with the pz2 file extension.

Quote - **
As to the subject at hand, I kind of wish that Dan had addressed the issues with the textures that have been mentioned while he was here. And the fact that the ones made for Poser don't have MAT poses. Call me lazy or whatever, but V4 has many, many surface areas to place textures on and having to go into the Material room to place each and everyone is not a selling point to me.**

Material poses can apply to multiple materials at once.  In many cases I've seen, MAT files aren't doing anything other than calling the material file which is actually applying the textures.  In other words, all the MAT is doing is exactly the same as you opening the material room, picking the material file (for the whole figure) and hitting the apply button.

"and having to go into the Material room to place each and everyone is not a selling point to me."

You don't need to place each and everyone. They are in the materials files which only shows up when you enter the material room. Instead of looking in the pose files look in the material files. It's just one click.

3X Crosspost. LOL

Quote - 3X Crosspost. LOL

We'll still get someone complaining about the lack of MAT poses on the next page. ;)