I will now vote for the McCain ticket with FAR more enthusiasm than I would have a couple of days ago.  Before, it was just going to be a vote against socialism.  Now it'll be because I have something positive to vote for, rather than merely something negative to vote against.

I don't know Palin well at all -- and I'd guess that few people outside of Alaska do.  But I've duly noted that she makes the right people happy.......and she makes the right people very, very angry.  In fact, she drives them positively bonkers.  That's a strong indicator that -- this time -- McCain has done precisely the right thing with his choice of VP.

BTW - another thing that a personage like Palin does -- merely by her very presence on the scene.  She shows up the fact that many of the so-called "women's rights" advocates are -- in reality -- merely shills for the implementation of liberal social policy, who use "women's rights" in the same manner that others use "it's all for the children".  If the woman in question takes a position other than the down-the-line doctrinaire liberal one: then she just can't be praised for her good work in "breaking glass ceilings", etc..  Because such things only count to the lefties when the focus of their glowing admiration happens to be a lefty, too -- regardless of other, supposedly essential qualities (such as being female).  It all stims from a bit of underlying philosophical hypocrisy -- because we'll only laud a woman for her being "worthy" due to her achievements if she's a socialist like us. So -- the point isn't the basic advancement of "women" as a principle.  The point is the advancement of liberalism.......with phrases such as "women's rights" and "we're doing it for the children" used liberally (of course) as excuses for imposing ever longer lists of dictatorial rules on our lives.

The good folks up in Alaska tend to be driven by libertarian, conservative principles.  My kind of folks.  I think that I am beginning to really like this woman...........

Quote - {JOKE}

This is all about who the colonials are going to elect as the leader of "The Free World" right?

I'd suggest you all (y'all?) need to sit down with a nice, calming, cup of tea and think about your choices...but I'd hate to see it wasted in Boston harbour again. ~lmao~

{/JOKE}

Y'all do know that folksy, fried-chickin' eatin' Americans are greatly impressed by English accents, don't ya?  'Specially them Americans of the Southern persuasion.  Anyone who comes in a'talkin' thataway jus' gotta be edjicated.......even when they's a'speakin' Cockney........we's still mighty im-pressed with 'em.

BTW - it's "harbor", not "harbour".  And tea made with seawater tastes lousy.

Now -- back to discussing the issue of who we are going to elect to be the next ruler of the Free World.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rci-dF1bszo&feature=related

Well, even as the lectures against the evils of liberalism begin, I'll simply add that McCain made a big point yesterday about how "families are off-limits" in the campaign.

Funny, but I seem to remember a whole swath of families -- specifically gay and lesbian ones -- that were treated as cannon fodder in the last two presidential campaigns. It would be good to remember that as events continue to unravel...

back to discussing the issue of who we are going to elect to be the next ruler of the Free World.*

Uh, right... and here I thought the US was created as a revolt against the concept of a monarchy...

Politicians are like diapers,

• the have to be changed often... and for the same reason.

Quote - I will now vote for the McCain ticket with FAR more enthusiasm than I would have a couple of days ago.  Before, it was just going to be a vote against socialism.  Now it'll be because I have something positive to vote for, rather than merely something negative to vote against.

What's wrong with socialism?  Seems like it worked out pretty well when Bill Clinton
was president.  Given a choice between socialism and what we have now, I'll take
socialism any day of the week.

Quote -
I don't know Palin well at all -- and I'd guess that few people outside of Alaska do.  But I've duly noted that she makes the right people happy.......and she makes the right people very, very angry.  In fact, she drives them positively bonkers.  That's a strong indicator that -- this time -- McCain has done precisely the right thing with his choice of VP.

Doesn't believe gloabal warming exists, does beleive in creationism.  That's all I need to know.
Bush in a skirt.

Quote -
BTW - another thing that a personage like Palin does -- merely by her very presence on the scene.  She shows up the fact that many of the so-called "women's rights" advocates are -- in reality -- merely shills for the implementation of liberal social policy, who use "women's rights"

Including equal pay for equal work, a woman's right to choose, all things Palin is against.

Quote -
The point is the advancement of liberalism.......with phrases such as "women's rights" and "we're doing it for the children" used liberally (of course) as excuses for imposing ever longer lists of dictatorial rules on our lives.

Hilarious. Right wingers like Palin advocate abolishing a woman's right to choose,
and it's the liberals that are dictating how people live.

Quote - The good folks up in Alaska tend to be driven by libertarian, conservative principles.  My kind of folks.  I think that I am beginning to really like this woman...........

I think she would be a freaken disaster.

Quote - I think she would be a freaken disaster.

That opinion is music to my ears.  Wonderful.  It's been a good couple of days on the political front. 

BTW - I certainly have to agree with one point that was made earlier in this thread, by someone else.  Hillary Clinton isn't worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as Sarah Palin.  One of those two women rode her husband's coattails to fame & to power -- and it's most likely that we never would have heard of her, except for her husband's notoriety.  While the other woman has achieved all that she's achieved purely under her own muster.  So, yeah: comparing the two is most certainly completely unfair to one of them.

I'm getting the impression that "Sarah Barracuda" is the type of player who'll come up on the outside while Hillary Billary is clumsily attempting to dribble down the court -- snatch the ball away from Hillary -- and then drive directly to the opposite goal and score.......leaving a stunned,  wide-eyed, open-mouthed Hillary muttering "Wha' happened..........?"

After the game, Sarah will celebrate by going moose hunting with her husband.  Perhaps she'll also oust a corrupt, smug politician or two in the process.

Quote - > Quote - I think she would be a freaken disaster.

That opinion is music to my ears.  Wonderful.  It's been a good couple of days on the political front. 

BTW - I certainly have to agree with one point that was made earlier in this thread, by someone else.  Hillary Clinton isn't worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as Sarah Palin.  One of those two women rode her husband's coattails to fame & to power -- and it's most likely that we never would have heard of her, except for her husband's notoriety.  While the other woman has achieved all that she's achieved purely under her own muster.  So, yeah: comparing the two is most certainly completely unfair to one of them.

I'm getting the impression that "Sarah Barracuda" is the type of player who'll come up on the outside while Hillary Billary is clumsily attempting to dribble down the court -- snatch the ball away from Hillary -- and then drive directly to the opposite goal and score.......leaving a stunned,  wide-eyed, open-mouthed Hillary muttering "Wha' happened..........?"

After the game, Sarah will celebrate by going moose hunting with her husband.  Perhaps she'll also oust a corrupt, smug politician or two in the process.

Well, if you liked the last 8 years of Bush, no wonder you love her so much.
Just another Bush clone without the goofy face.

Quote - Perhaps she'll also oust a corrupt, smug politician or two in the process.

Uhm... like Ted Steele, whom she supported (as well as his various money-grabbing projects like the infamous Bridge to Nowhere?) until it became politically expedient to not support him?

Yeah, I bet at the time she stood behind him 110%.

FWIW, I'm not for any of the candidates. As I said, I find it incredible that out of a country this big, these were the best we could do. And all Palin brings to the table is the knowledge that the Next Generation of "leaders" will be just as absurdly dogmatic and inept and fast and loose in their definition of "legal" as the current one.

Haha, I always like hearing your opinions Xeno, but...man, you're plum crazy.  

Can anyone confirm what Miss Nancy said earlier about Palin shooting moose and wolves from helicopter using automatic weapons a la Apocalypse Now? I'd really like to know if I should consider her just another far right gun nut or if I should be as afraid of her as I am of McCain.

SnowS

That came from her support for the Alaska Department of Wildlife's  "aerial culling" of wildlife, which, in Alaska, is pretty much a necessity from time to time. I dont think she herself participates.

Well you do have to hand it to her on this.  Unlike Georgia's Mikheil Saakashvili,
she kept the Russians from invading Alaska.  

I had heard of Palin before McCain's announcement due to her encouraging wolf hunts using helicoptors.  My first thought when I heard the announcement was that McCain is going after the Hillary votes.  Oh, how I hope they see through that.  I might have to dip into my Poser fund to send some money to Obama.

According to this blog by Michael Markarian from the Humane Society Legislative Fund in his Friday Aug. 29th entry http://hslf.typepad.com/

Quote:
The Palin Administration has waged an all-out war on Alaska's predators to artificially boost the populations of moose and caribou for trophy hunters, and has tried to pass legislation making it easier for state officials to gun down wolves and bears from the sky.

Last year, the state offered a $150 bounty as an incentive for pilots and aerial gunners to kill more wolves. And leading up to this week's statewide vote on Measure 2 to stop the aerial shooting of wolves and bears, Palin's Board of Game spent $400,000 of public money on brochures and radio ads to influence the election. She not only took an inhumane and unsporting position at odds with the principles of wildlife management and fair chase, but did it in an undemocratic and underhanded way. 

Quote - Haha, I always like hearing your opinions Xeno, but...man, you're plum crazy.  

Can anyone confirm what Miss Nancy said earlier about Palin shooting moose and wolves from helicopter using automatic weapons a la Apocalypse Now? I'd really like to know if I should consider her just another far right gun nut or if I should be as afraid of her as I am of McCain.

SnowS

No, it's not true. If anyone bothered to look up Alaska hunting regulations, hunting from a helicopter is forbidden (except for culling purposes which is done by the Wildlife & Game wardens), also there are limitations on what firearms can be used & what gauge.

As for Palin doing a 180 on the "bridge to nowhere" because it was no longer PC....Obama basically did the same thing about his pastor. :/
Ahhhhhhh politics like usual.....

Edit: Interesting above post, I will have to read the links after work. :)

Quote - Haha, I always like hearing your opinions Xeno, but...man, you're plum crazy.  

Given the current environment -- now there's a charge that I can live with. 

Quote - Can anyone confirm what Miss Nancy said earlier about Palin shooting moose and wolves from helicopter using automatic weapons a la Apocalypse Now?

Dunno -- but I will mention that this is the only place where I've heard that particular accusation(?) -- if you can call it that -- being made.  But no doubt: it's being widely talked about on the kook far-left-wing blogs -- right beside the stories claiming that Sarah Palin "faked" her recent pregnancy.

Oh, yeah -- those same blogs are currently desperately trying to dig up Sarah Palin swimsuit pictures from her beauty pageant days (which ties into the OP in this thread).  And there's a lot of talk about her not being up to the job for family reasons, etc.......but hey: what sort of behavior do you expect coming from guys who love to throw around the "sexist" label whenever it happens to suit their political purposes?

I wonder how many of them wanted to find pictures of Hillary in a swimsuit?  Or even -- shudder -- Nancy Pelosi.

Quote - I'd really like to know if I should consider her just another far right gun nut or if I should be as afraid of her as I am of McCain.

That all depends upon where you stand on the issues.  McCain concerns me on a number of levels -- but he's done a lot to at least damp some of that down with this pick.

As I've implied a couple of times above: the hysterical reaction of the left -- which includes the Main Stream Media (MSM) -- to this VP pick shows that McCain has outdone himself.  Sarah Palin is a gigantic threat to their accepted template for what a woman is supposed to be, in political terms: and they know it.  And thus the effect has been much like kicking over an anthill.

Did you hear that FOX and Friends claimed that Palin has international experience because, in so many words, she lives close to Russia?    LOLOLOLO

Well hell, my best friend is Chinese...guess that makes me an expert on US-China relations.

SnowS

edit: crossposted with Xeno and Kimber. Thanks for the clarification Kimber.

edited again! :
"what sort of behavior do you expect coming from guys who love to throw around the "sexist" label whenever it happens to suit their political purposes?"

Oh, you mean the guys who who take the Bible literally and think a woman's place is in the home and how her only job should be to serve her husband; who have no right to make decisions regarding their own bodies, those guys?   >:)

So let me see if I get this right. Kill unborn babies but not wolves and bears? Does that sum it up? Wonder what the Humane Society's view is? I know, lets control the animals the same way and do abortions on them.

Edit: I happen to be pro-choice in all but extreeme circumstances btw.

Quote - Oh, you mean the guys who who take the Bible literally and think a woman's place is in the home and how her only job should be to serve her husband; who have no right to make decisions regarding their own bodies, those guys?   >:)

No, I mean those hypocrites who say one thing and do another.  Their idea of political debate with a woman with whom they disagree centers around a scavenger hunt for swimsuit pictures.  Are they being "sexists".......?  Nahhhh..........

I don't know why they're on a scavenger hunt for swimsuit pics, that doesn't seem like it would do much damage no matter what they find. They should be concentrating on the real issues surrounding her: lack of international experience, animal rights, oil connections, endorsement of religious teachings in school, etc.

Don't even go there with the hypocrite argument though, lol.     :)

SnowS

short edit: Actually, they should be concentrating on McCain anyway. We don't have to deal with Palin if we keep McCain out.   ;)

After a bit of searching main stream news web sites I couldn't help but notice something interesting. The DNC convention is over and I mean really over. All everyone seems to want to talk about is Palin. Wether she is the right pick, or not, remains to be seen, but it appears she has accomplished her first goal.

Quote - Did you hear that FOX and Friends claimed that Palin has international experience because, in so many words, she lives close to Russia?    LOLOLOLO

Well hell, my best friend is Chinese...guess that makes me an expert on US-China relations.

Odd, that -- seeing as how the state of Alaska regularly has to deal with entities like the Russians, Japanese, Chinese, etc. over matters such as fishing rights, territorial waters, and other issues.

shrug  She's had more direct dealings with foreign governments than Barack Obama has, if the "experience" argument is the way that anyone wants to go.

I've heard this elsewhere, so I can't claim that it's original with me: but it's a good thing when the debate is centering around the issue of whether the Republican's VP candidate has more or less practical experience than does the Democrat's top-of-the-ticket.  Regardless of any ancillary concerns: the very prominence of that comparison sets the whole slant of the argument in a way that definitely isn't to the Dem ticket's advantage.

You make good arguments, it's fun to debate with you.   :)

I still have my doubts as to how much international experience she really has, and the argument really should be between who would be a better president, McCain or Obama. Palin just opens up opportunities for Democrats to attack, and most of them are going for it.

SnowS

Quote - You make good arguments, it's fun to debate with you.   :)

I still have my doubts as to how much international experience she really has, and the argument really should be between who would be a better president, McCain or Obama. Palin just opens up opportunities for Democrats to attack, and most of them are going for it.

SnowS

Don't ya just love it when a plan comes together?

Quote - Well you do have to hand it to her on this.  Unlike Georgia's Mikheil Saakashvili,
she kept the Russians from invading Alaska.  

Yes, she gets all the credit, (and not the massive US Nuclear Arsenal of Mutual Destruction).  -^
Hey, maybe we should ship Mrs. Veep to Georgia and let her keep Russia from invading them too?  -^

As an independent observer from the other side of the Atlantic, I think the candidates for this election prove 2 things:

1. The problem with political jokes is that they end up getting elected!

2. On a serious note, if you scour the world looking for politicians with leadership skills, credibility and sound moral judgement and behaviour, you end up with an extremely short list. In fact, right now, I struggle to think of anyone, in any country. And that's very sad, and very scary.

[quoteAnd the US's massive Nuclear Arsenal had nothing to do with keeping Russia from invading Alaska? 

Hey if that's all it takes, let's just ship Mrs. Veep to Georgia and let her keep Russia from invading them too.  -^

We can thank the Republicans for the nukes and Ms Palin needs to stay here for now and make sure we keep em.

Quote - I still have my doubts as to how much international experience she really has, and the argument really should be between who would be a better president, McCain or Obama.

Yep.  We agree.

Quote - Palin just opens up opportunities for Democrats to attack, and most of them are going for it.

Oh.....anything that the Republican candidate does -- like breathing -- effectively "opens up opportunities for the Democrats to attack".  But in the case of Sarah Palin.......they'd be wise to exercise some caution in attacking her personally.  It's the type of assault which could easily boomerang on them.  But I offer that advice with full awareness of the fact that they just can't help themselves.....the nature and the instincts of a beast will always rule it's actions: regardless of any potential hazards to itself.  So I fully anticipate the pell-mell, headlong rush to attack Sarah Palin and her family in the most dispicable ways imaginable.

I suspect that she is the type of individual who can take it.  And that she'll be able to give back better than she gets in the process.

Now that the recent troubles in Georgia have been mentioned, I wonder what Obama is capable of doing re; Putin? Russia is back on the stage with a renewed economy thanks to thier oil. The EU gets over 40% of it's oil from Russia and now finds itself in a terrible position. If the US would do more drilling we would import less and allow the EU alternatives to Russian oil. I think Ms Palin has a better grasp on international policy than most think. Obama will probably suggest a hand holding circle with the EU ans suggest singing Kumbaya.

Quote - Now that the recent troubles in Georgia have been mentioned, I wonder what Obama is capable of doing re; Putin? Russia is back on the stage with a renewed economy thanks to thier oil. The EU gets over 40% of it's oil from Russia and now finds itself in a terrible position. If the US would do more drilling we would import less and allow the EU alternatives to Russian oil. I think Ms Palin has a better grasp on international policy than most think. Obama will probably suggest a hand holding circle with the EU ans suggest singing Kumbaya.

We could drill every square inch of America and still not find enough oil to meet the demand.
We need to stop depending on early 20th century technology and move into the 21st century
with renewable energy sources such as wind, solar, geothermal.  Then Russia becomes
irrelevant.

>> As for Palin doing a 180 on the "bridge to nowhere" because it was no longer PC....Obama basically did the same thing about his pastor. :/

IIRC, Obama's pastor didnt cost taxpayers several billion dollars. Nor did Obama's pastor cost the several million in earmarks that went to her town of 7-8,000.

Sorry, but there is a difference.

She's had more direct dealings with foreign governments than Barack Obama has, if the "experience" argument is the way that anyone wants to go.*

She has? She's been a small town mayor and governor of Alaska for less than two years. What foreign governments? Obama's trip to the Middle East and Europe pretty convinced the foreign leaders there that he's presidential material. Did Ms. Palin make a similar trip and not tell anyone?

Sorry, but that's absurd. Palin knows pretty much zip about international relations because she's never had to learn. Now we're trying to make up some kind of skillset that says she's prepared if ol' John keels over on Inauguration Day?

Honestly, I cant believe the Republicans are taking this nomination seriously. Out of all the people out there, she was it? Is the Grand Old Party that desperate? Please, someone explain this decision so it makes sense because, from where I'm sitting, it's just another short-sighted shot in the dark.

Quote - >> As for Palin doing a 180 on the "bridge to nowhere" because it was no longer PC....Obama basically did the same thing about his pastor. :/

IIRC, Obama's pastor didnt cost taxpayers several billion dollars. Nor did Obama's pastor cost the several million in earmarks that went to her town of 7-8,000.

Sorry, but there is a difference.

Not to mention McCain basically did the same thing in reverse.  In 2000 he denounced
people like Jerry Falwell and Bob Jones as being religious extremists.  Then when he
needed them to get the votes of the religious right, he comes kissing up to them.
And now he picks one of their most hard-core devotees as his VP.

Quote - That came from her support for the Alaska Department of Wildlife's  "aerial culling" of wildlife, which, in Alaska, is pretty much a necessity from time to time. I dont think she herself participates.

I understand a culling but this, as far as I know the definition, is not a culling (thinning of the herd for its own survival or for medical needs.)

This is the  killing of wolves as a predator of a favorite hunting species.  As far as I know, the Alaskan moose is not an endangered species or even close to being endangered. If they were moose hunting should be outlawed first.  

This makes me cry - it is just sad... very very sad for two majestic and beautiful species.

Quote - We could drill every square inch of America and still not find enough oil to meet the demand.
We need to stop depending on early 20th century technology and move into the 21st century
with renewable energy sources such as wind, solar, geothermal.  Then Russia becomes
irrelevant.

Agreed we should be doing more, but that takes time. We need to do both right now.

[quote
I understand a culling but this, as far as I know the definition, is not a culling (thinning of the herd for its own survival or for medical needs.)

This is the  killing of wolves as a predator of a favorite hunting species.  As far as I know, the Alaskan moose is not an endangered species or even close to being endangered. If they were moose hunting should be outlawed first.  

This makes me cry - it is just sad... very very sad for two majestic and beautiful species.

Removing animals from the herd to assist in herd improvement and maintain herd size. Selection criteria are normally based on factors such as disease, infertility, milk yield, etc.
www.specialistcheesemakers.co.uk/best_practice/Glossary_of_terms.htm

This is being done to benefit the herds health overall.  A difficult thing to do for sure, but necessary.

Besides the fact that the topic of this thread is not who is or is not qualified or disqualified for this or that office and it's not about who's in favor of what and when and how.

This forum is for discussions about Poser. 

Unless the Biden, McCain, Obama, Palin campaigns, or the candidate's themselves are now affiliated with, or own a part of Poser somehow.
 
There really shouldn't be any political arguements being made about the qualifications/disqualifications of this or that candidate in the first place.

Daidalos

Quote - Everything in your post up until the following

LOL, PJF FTW.

Quote - I've always reckoned that the first woman president and the first black president of the USA would be conservatives (as with Margaret Thatcher here in the UK). Still think so.

I tend to agree.  The only Hollywood types America will elect to high office are conservatives, and probably for similar reasons.

Quote - It's called the election. A very entertaining one it's turning out to be, too.

What with the left's fascination for climbing the cross, I don't think they'll be happy unless they lose this election.  Which works out well because I think they will.  Democrats routinely see their summer poll advantages evaporate come election time, plus A) Obama's lead is low (if it even exists at this point, haven't checked lately), historically speaking, and B) significant numbers of white guilt voters (independent and swing voters, in this case; "ZOMG!  It's racist not to vote for the Obamessiah!") polled aren't being honest and will probably show more honesty ("the hell with that, implying voting against a black man is ipso facto racism is a racist claim") in the booth, eroding Obama's lead even further.

>> This forum is for discussions about Poser.

Sorry, but I must disagree.

We come to this forum with more than just a shared desire to play with a certain software. We also come to it with interests that sometimes lay outside that software... and because we wish to discuss those topics with friends and acquaintances here and because there is no longer an OT forum, as there was in the day, then as long as something is plainly marked "OT", which this one is, it hurts no one. No one is required to read it. No one is required to participate, If the discussion gets out of hand, that's one thing, but thus far, as Jen noted, it hasnt.

And yes there should be discussions about the qualifications of a particular candidate. I would think we would want an informed electorate, not one that just goes by any old sound bites tossed our way. As much as we may prefer otherwise, the election in November will have world wide ramifications (I wish it didnt, but sadly there we are), and some folks out there might like knowing what's coming down the road.

Otherwise, we might as well just limit our forum threads to the latest oo bright shiny! from DAZ. No discussions of any personal news, good or bad. No threads about the latest adventures of one member's cats. No announcements that someone has just done something quite amazing or quite stupid or anything inbetween. But somehow, y'know, there's more to life than just that. So let the fora reflect that. This thread has demonstrated that such discussions are caable of being civil, so why clamp down on it? Again, no one's required to read the topic at hand.

If you feel we've crossed a line, then by all means, shut the thread down and delete it. but IMHO that would be a grave disservice to a membership that ahs demonstrated itself more often than not quite capable of self-monitoring.

*">> This forum is for discussions about Poser.

*Sorry, but I must disagree."

Not y(our) call, Sean. You should know by now that when one of the smiling, furry Disney characters walks up and waves at you that you should just wave back and move along.

(Which is exactly how your whole country will turn out if your guy wins. :-P~~ )

Oops.

Arse.
.

Whether or not Obama or McCain have a lead at the moment depends upon which polls you want to believe.  The polls are an annoying aspect of modern politics, IMO.  It's little more than a way for the news media to create news, so that they have something to talk about.

Political polls are almost as good at predicting election outcomes as local weather reports are on predicting what the weather will be 3 months from now.

I'm glad that daily / every 2 hours types of polls didn't exist during WWII.  I'd be glad if they didn't exist now.  A poll taken today is close to meaningless in terms of what will actually happen 3 months from now.  Occasionally the pollsters seem to get it right......but IMO that's an example of the "stopped clock being right twice a day" phenomenon in operation.  Often: the polls turn out to be way off base once the election is held.

"So I fully anticipate the pell-mell, headlong rush to attack Sarah Palin and her family in the most dispicable ways imaginable."

Yes, like how righties continue to insist Obama is a Muslim, how he's going to sell out our country to terrorists, how Michelle was never proud of America, and that their "terrorist fist bump" will corrupt our impressionable youth?   There's absolutely nothing you can say the Democrats do that the Republicans don't already do uglier and more often.   ;)

It's funny though, there are two people in this thread who I fight with just about everywhere else in the Poser community, but we seem to agree on these political issues. At least the next time we battle, I'll think "well, he doesn't like _____ either".     :)

SnowS

Quote - Yes, like how righties continue to insist Obama is a Muslim, how he's going to sell out our country to terrorists, how Michelle was never proud of America, and that their "terrorist fist bump" will corrupt our impressionable youth?   There's absolutely nothing you can say the Democrats do that the Republicans don't already do uglier and more often.   ;)

Oh, there's a considerable difference.  You don't see Republican operatives & right-wing bloggers looking for bikini pictures of their female opponents as a way of discrediting them.  That sort of attack tends to come strictly from the left side of the political equation.

The primary difference is this: the worst of the dirt coming from the right is held by fringe groups & individuals -- but it clearly isn't the view of the mainstream of the movement.  Whereas the kook far left bloggers and their paranoid fantasies do represent what currently passes for the mainstream of the other side.  Think "Michael Moore".

I'll add this in regards to the issue of polls: it's just too bad that there isn't some sort of a hardline check on opinion polls like there is on election polls.  The pollsters have a tough time, not to mention an embarrassing time, trying to explain why their poll claimed that a candidate  who was supposed to win by 15 ends up losing by 12.  But the pollsters are free to say anything that they want to in regards to how many people are for or against various social issues, etc..  Because unlike with elections: there's no empirical way to test the pollster's claims on such abstract issues.  So the pollsters can blithely say that 75% of the American public favors this, or is opposed to that -- with no one able to point out to them just where they are operating in a world of statistics and figures which is heavily colored by their own wishful thinking.

Not to mention the way pollsters couch thier questions to get a biased result.

This has indeed been a very civil discourse. It hasn't been personal and very good points are being made all around. And above all.... God Bless America

All your mothers were Hamsters and your fathers all smelt of Elderberries! :tt2:

Quote - "(Which is exactly how your whole country will turn out if your guy wins.

I have no guy in this, sorry. I find McCain and his choice of VP singularly lacking, but I'm not a wild endorsee of Obama/Biden either. This campaign has stretched on way past credulity at this point, and I really just want it over.

Quote - I'll add this in regards to the issue of polls: it's just too bad that there isn't some sort of a hardline check on opinion polls like there is on election polls.  The pollsters have a tough time, not to mention an embarrassing time, trying to explain why their poll claimed that a candidate  who was supposed to win by 15 ends up losing by 12.  But the pollsters are free to say anything that they want to in regards to how many people are for or against various social issues, etc..  Because unlike with elections: there's no empirical way to test the pollster's claims on such abstract issues.  So the pollsters can blithely say that 75% of the American public favors this, or is opposed to that -- with no one able to point out to them just where they are operating in a world of statistics and figures which is heavily colored by their own wishful thinking.

Polling companies are also way behind the times: they do their research by calling people with land lines, not cel phones -- and given how our society is moving more and more towards cel phone use, the numbers are even more falliable.

"You don't see Republican operatives & right-wing bloggers looking for bikini pictures of their female opponents as a way of discrediting them.  That sort of attack tends to come strictly from the left side of the political equation."

You keep going back to that one weird example of what the left is doing as if every liberal attacks in such strange ways. How about Rush Limbaugh trying to incite a riot at the Democratic National Convention? Or FOX calling Michelle "Obama's baby mama"? What did Bush say..."you can't take the high horse and then claim the low road"?    :D

As for the polling, I wonder if you guys are only yelling about it because it shows Obama ahead.  :)   If it was McCain leading 49% to 43%, you'd probably be saying how polling represents an accurate cross-section of the American people across red and blue states and how it shows that we're ready for a new maverick in Washington even though McCain hasn't resembled a maverick in the slightest for at least, oh, 18 months or so, yadda yadda yadda.

SnowS

Let me just chime in...what the hell, I've done a few 12 oz. curls. lol.

McCain was a maverick at one time, now he is more of the same. His choice of running mate is a desperate move. They realize that they have little hope and frankly (imo) are trying to capture some of the Hillary camp and/or feline movement. She/Palin is one heart beat away from running the country...no thanks.  And by the way, I have no problem with a woman running the country.
Obama is change, pure and simple. Can he do it? I don't know. I feel he is the first one since Kennedy to offer geniune hope. Will he be crushed by the machine that is Washington...maybe, maybe not.

As a conservative I vote outside my box when I feel led, which has bitten me in the past but will not stop me in any way from doing so again. I am not happy with our world political positions, though if someone hits me...I will hit them back. George W. has an arrogance about him that I dislike and I feel it has hurt us more than helped us.
If something isn't working I am all for trying something else. I feel we need to try something else.
Personally, I've always liked Joe Biden. I've thought he has been level headed and not pursuing an agenda...but pursuing what he thinks is right, and more often than not I can see his point and agree with him, and this goes back some years.
Things are not well for any country in the world right now. At least we are freely able to choose (to a degree)  who runs our country.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7568929.stm

Statistics can be shown to prove almost anything. By themselves, statistics are meaningless, until people try to interpret them. The link above is part of a rather interesting series about the manipulation on numbers and figures, and well worth a read (there's a drop-down menu for the other parts of the series in the right column).

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

Attached Link: The Political Compass

 Hey, have you guys ever taking a test to see what is your real political leaning?

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

The scale goes by:
economic (Communism vs Capitalism), and social (Authoritarian vs Libertarian).

Are you really a closet Stalin, Hilter, Ghandhi, or Ron Paul?  -^