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I think I am in love with a Digital Doll!

She looks amazing!

I have had alot of fun rigging this model.  odf has created a gorgeous peice of geometry in Antonia, she is fairly low poly but logically and well put together, I just wish I could model this well.

odf isn't the only one who wants to put his greedy fingers on this mesh with you rig in her!  You guys make a great team! :laugh:  At least you guys aren't making dynamic clothes, so I can't call you guys a 'Dynamic Duo'. :lol:

Quote - At least you guys aren't making dynamic clothes, so I can't call you guys a 'Dynamic Duo'. :lol:

:lol:

when testing, make sure you try poses that are sort of mid-way extreme as well as extremes.  V4, for instance, doesn't do so well with partially bent calves.  i've had times of needing to bring her calf to her thigh or have a nasty and inexplicable dent.  it might be a JCM issue, but still...  and extreme poses are outliers, but the most important poses are common ones.  i'd say look at 30's to 70's pinup photographs, and you've got the most accurate reference for a good 75 to 80% of Poser/D|S usage.

First time seeing this. She looks really impressive. I love the natural looking body she has and as someone said, far too many figures have that "need to be fed look". All of Pz99's suggestions came out great. That belly button is looking much better for sure. I like the face as is ( lots of character ) Please don't make the nose pinched and tiny leave that up to morphs.

Phantom's rigging looks great as always. I like that she is light in geometry. Im no expert on rigging, In fact I know very little but I find that figures tend to deform much better if they fall into the mid range of geometry 35 to 60,000. Also it's much easier to create morphs for, faster render times etc. basically optimizes everthing. When she is released I would like to have a go at making some morphs for her. I was going to suggest Blender to you which I like to use for morphs but I see you said you have Zbrush and Wings3d so I think your covered.

Cheers
JB

Quote - I have had alot of fun rigging this model.  odf has created a gorgeous peice of geometry in Antonia, she is fairly low poly but logically and well put together, I just wish I could model this well.

You have to remember that it took me three years to make her. What I lack in talent, I make up for in obsessiveness.

Sorry it is taking me so long, can't help it.  In explanation,some of you may know about this hip rigg I have been working on for the last year and a half, it acts like a second hip that alows the hip to swivle around independent of the body like a ball. It was great for forward and backward bends and some side to side, but I couldn't controle each side of the hip independently, so I had been kicking an idea around in my head for awhile of a way to split the hip and be able to controle each side of the hip independently. This new idea is what is going into Antonia. Here's a pic of some of what it can do.  In the first two shots you see one side of the hip made broader, this would be great for a wider hipped heavy woman, with some morphs to add bulk to the body it would be perfect, it widens the gap between the legs and allows for more bulk to be added while retaining the bending ability of the rigg. in the second two shots you can see how the separate hips can be used to move the butt hip up and forward on the one side and down and backward on the other. This is great for getting the proper form for the model say when they are running full out with one leg forward and the other back these are exagerated shots of the bends so you can't miss whats going on.. It's also what I use to pull the crease and flattening out of the leg hip bend. These two bones work like a ball and socket joint.

Well as you can imagine something like this is murder to set up the falloff zones for, so I really am working on it it's just hard and is taking awhile.

I used to have a girl friend that could do that. Man, I miss her! LOLOLOL :laugh: I think one could see why.

That's impressive stuff, Mike. I've never thought of Antonia as a poster child for versatility in a Poser figure, but with your rigging suddenly there seems to be a lot of potential.

The side to side bend looks amazing. I've always admired how your rigs can do things like that. Getting those falloffs just right must be a complete torture, though. I don't think I've made your job any easier either by giving her such luscious labia. :biggrin:

The labia is fine, it's hard to keep a distinct crease there though in a bend that extreme.  But the good new is that as long as you are not bending it as far as this it works great, I should have showed a shot with less of a side to side bend, cause I think CobaltDream is right, most peolple will never use a bend this extreme. 

The really hard part comes when you start combining all the bends together because they all effect eachother and that's where the nightmare is in setting falloff zones.  It will never be absolutely perfect for every conceivable bend but as long as it can do most bends and poses easily and smoothly, it'll be magic.

"Good enough"  is when it can't be made any better in reason.  Perfection is NOT achievable, but we can get pretty close. When we do, we have to know when Good Enough IS good enough.

I used to be a 100% perfectionist.  That made my life hell. I settle for anything 99% and up. That is good enough for me. More than good enough for than 99% of everyone else. In life, that's still pretty damned impressive!

You guys are already doing magic, IMO.

Wow! Looks great, Mike. A major complaint I have had since after Posette is all the characters I make with a given figure having the same hip/shoulder ratio no matter how much flesh they are carrying. I really struggle making "A frame" MILF types with wide hips and narrow shoulders... Pear Shape and other morphs add weight to the hips but don't change the basicstructure... I would love to be able to make slim wide hipped characters. What happens with you rigg when it comes to scaling leg length or trunk legnth? I find I need to scale legs shorter and the hip and abdo taller as well as scalling the head up to get "average" female proportions.

When can I try one of these rigs!!!!

I definitely have trouble knowing when good enough is good enough. The rigg will of course need testing, that will be up to odf to get testers he trusts. I will stay on board to fix problems if odf wants me to.

momodot: I haven't set up much scaling yet, but it's fairly easy and quick to set up. But I am using some fairly basic groups and the bones should scale nicely, I'm going to try to stay away from the middle hip (crotch, hard to explain what I mean but with some models you see the middle crotch area drop down and overlap the legs ect) scaling thing which causes so many problems and go with side to side scaling of the hip area and of course a central full hip scale< don't forsee any problems with what I have set up for scaling though so fingers crossed.

Knowing when "Good enough" is good enough is a skill, not a talent. More of a rule of thumb practiced by some artists to stop trying to perfect minutae. Life is too short to fiddle with half percentages on some poses. LOL

So far, so good! :laugh:

I am curious about the grouping, now that you mentioned them.  What non-standard groups do you have?

I only have one non standard group in this figure and that is the lower abdomen. I have brought back the buttocks groups in this figure too. This rigg is actually less complicated than the former rigg I had which is a plus. It uses some regular standard rigging but in a way that was probably never intended. If you were to look at the rigg you would probably think it's broken. Poser rigging does things sometimes that it's not supposed to do, but it can be an improvement.

I think that's called,"Thinking outside the box" or something like that! LOLOL Using stuff in ways never intended is just a way of life to me. Glad to see other experimenters out there. ^___^

kool

WOW! She is gorgeous. If you need textures, bodygloves or clothes I'd be glad to contribute.
I am sure PhilC will make her Wardrobe Wizard compatible when she is ready.
cheerio  lululee

I think I've got a decent set of lower teeth now. I'll probably be able to copy the molars to the top as a set and shift them around a bit, but the top front teeth have different shapes than the lower ones, of course, so I may need to work on a prototype again. Tedious work, but gratifying when it's done.

wow lot of details here, Antonia can smile without fear

Oh my goodness! I just saw this thread for the first time, and I'm just STUNNED!

P3D's custom rigging of her hips is incredible...I've tried to get V4 to pose in a sitting position with her legs right up to her chest and it was a disaster! o_O

Since this thread was several pages, I had hoped she'd be ready as I'd love to make some clothes for her too, but can wait as this is fascinating just to watch!

Antonia is one lucky gal to have such talented people working to give her 'life'!

she looks lovely! When it is finished, please contact me ASAP to test out her performance and to see if conforming clothing, posing, etc is good to create clothing for her :) 

It's gorgeous, I don't see anything that couldn't be fixed by morph and texture really. It's especially nice how the shoulder is, so much nicer than any other figure so far. That area drives me nuts on other figures. I would like tto see how it bends, shoulder up and down.

More resolution in the mesh waist, breast and face would be good though, for making magnet morphs. The ear may be a little off, square and large. The daz mesh has too much resolution at the mouth corners and dimple areas making the face look rough often. I think low res in some areas actually looks smoother and suits your figure well.

Wow, amazing work!!!
How fantastic would morph her ;)

I especially like her nature breasts and realistic shoulder. OK, like everything. And those gum-parts between teeth-pairs ;)

Agree, ears are a little square and large for me too and should be more resolution on breasts and face, but I look it as a morph-creator.

If you need someone who make facial morphs (except phonemes), just contact with me. I love to make morphs :) Many-many morphs :)

Quote - More resolution in the mesh waist, breast and face would be good though, for making magnet morphs. The ear may be a little off, square and large.

You have to remember that the mesh I'm showing in this thread is my original WIngs3D one. The one used in Poser is subdivided once - coming to something around 42k quads now including teeth and tongue - so it should be fine enough for most purposes. If more resolution is needed, I really think displacement maps are the way to go. Most of the morphs I'm going to make will be created on the original, lo-res mesh and translated to hi-res, because I find it much easier to work that way. But anyone else making morphs is of course free to only support the hi-res mesh.

Anyway, the breast augmentation magnet-morphs I made for her worked pretty well, I thought. Have a look at my gallery ("NAIATWNS") if you haven't seen those.

I think you have a point regarding the ears, though. Judging from the references I've looked at recently, they don't really seem unusually big to me, but ears that square are usually smaller. So I'll make them a bit more narrow for the final version.

I think the ears might look better laid down closer to the skull. Cut down on clipping the hair, at least. :laugh: The ears look alright to me. They aren't dumbo-sized to me. An elf-ear morph might be neat to go with them.  Someone is always crazy for elfin ears. :lol: LOLOLOLOL Then people won't care what size they are!

Narrowed ears will be fine :)
 You know, mine are small and follow my head so not so visible too much from front. Maybe this is why so odd for me if I see too much from ears :)

Anyway, amazing work on her. I so love how her legs and arms bend...so naturalistic and this is what always miss at other figures.

Quote - I think the ears might look better laid down closer to the skull. Cut down on clipping the hair, at least. :laugh: The ears look alright to me. They aren't dumbo-sized to me. An elf-ear morph might be neat to go with them.  Someone is always crazy for elfin ears. :lol: LOLOLOLOL Then people won't care what size they are!

As with the nose, it should be easy to adjust them to individual tastes using morphs. The important bit for me was to get a more or less realistic structure. As with the shape of the head, most people will probably give her long wigs and not notice the difference, but I'd rather like her to look good bald or with very short hair as well.

Oh, and elf ears: excellent! I was going to ask for a list of morph wishes so I could do some practice ones before tackling the expressions. Elf ears will definitely go on it. And a bad-ass stereotypical wicca nose! :biggrin:

Enough resolution?

That resolution is perfect!
However you could use less polys on eyes
Teeth look great also!

You need a morph wish list? Okie-dokey!

For nose: Grecian (Tip on same plane with forehead. More or less a straight line from tip to middle of  forehead.)
Roman ("Eagle nose" A regal bend in the nose just below the brow-line so the nose has a suggestion of an eagle beak.)
Smaller (Just shrink it some. LOLOLOL)
Button (Turn the tip up a bit, shrink the nose a bit, except for the tip.)
Rail or Sharp (bring outside closer to the center in y-axis. More corner-like in top view.)

Lips: Full (Angelia Jolie lips. <She's supposed to have the best lips in the world. Can't go wrong with that.)

Chin:  Full(more jaw, more chin area)
Pointed (more of a point)
Cleft (LESS of a point. Literally. LOLOL)

Cheeks:Full or higher (More pronounced or bigger cheekbones.)

Eyes: Wider(Further apart. Will need ERC to move eyes.)
Slanted (Center down or up)
Epicantic fold (Oriental style eyes)
Bigger/Smaller (Enlarged or shrunken eyes range. May need ERC of eyes.)

Brow: Gone (No eyebrow on skin, Moved inside head)
Slanted (Like Spock. Some people like that look.  She might be a good looking Vulcan! LOL:laugh:)
Arched (Thinner and arched like old-time movie stars)
Bushy (Bigger like Brooke Shields)
Enlarged (Like a Neanderthal)

Skull: Sloped (Like a neanderthal)
Enlarged (Bigger brain-case)
Higher Forehead

Is that enough, or do you need more? :laugh: I can go all day.

Yes I think the basic structure is good, I can't see anything that couldn't be solved with magnets, even what I mentioned before could be.

Oriental eye fold is good to have or hard to do with magnets and lash morphs too. It is good that your lashes go all the way across the lids. Your jawline is very nice and the ear is at the right depth. I really hope she is done soon :).

here's the morphs i still have no clue how one does:

• extreme feature scaling.  even within a realistic (not fantastic range), i'd like to do realistic Japanese girl or Clara Bow lips as well as larger lips.  the same goes for eyes, noses and ears.
• epicanthic eye morphs.  there's more than one, and i've yet to have a Caucasian based figure handle them correctly, especially at the different corners/edges of the eyes.  if there's a way to do this, i'd rather have this than any brow morphs.  large scale morphs like those are easy.
• eyelid thickness.  a huge problem with V4's realism is her eyes.  they help keep her looking like a doll.   if you notice, most of the textures that overcome this have makeup that obscures the edge of the eyelid.  eyelid thickness is a big indicator of age, and a nice rounded edge is absolutely key for portraits.

and these are some dream morphs - body part scaling.  sometimes i'd like a longer torso.  shortening the legs is not enough, because the distance from shoulder to hip stays the same. i'd often like a wider (V4 usually) or narrower (V3 and S3, usually) shoulders and chest.  the answer in some cases might be different rigging, as Phantom3d has shown.  whatever can be handled with morphs would be appreciated.

• pointy nail/long claw morphs.  i they're probably easy enough to do, i just want to mention them because they require enough polys in the nails. 
• realistic, specific body and face morphs for different ages, ethnicities and body types.  i'd rather mix real people. 
• basic shape morphs.  i find Capsces' morphs indispensible because they do things like make curves rounder and flatter, longer and shorter, and wider and thinner.  this is great for everything from eyelids to cheeks, to arms and legs.  but of course, you could just ask her to do those, or wait and see if she does.

Probably odd to mention and that's the point, I'd like to see some feet and toes shapes, no matter how much I morph a figure feet end up looking the same every single time. I'd like to see some longer/shorter toes and some weight effects on the feet, spreading toes, etc. Just thinking out loud.

Not to be contrary but I feel giving her good expressions is far more important than giving her lots of sculpting morphs. It is fine to let her just look the way you want her to look IMHO and let people tweak with magnets or release her and let someone else make a free morph set for her. A lovely original figure that can emote is so so sweet, each figure doesn't have to be infinitely mutable. Some figures I just morph if there is "something wrong" I need to fix but others are just great on their own if I am doing personal work. I like Rikishi and Satoko just as they are "off the rack". It is the DAZ figures that I use when I want or need to create my own specific characters. People rarely morph the EF figures like Miki and James though truth be they don't morph well because of bad poly flow or looping or something, maybe just too many pixels? Elle and the Girl are pretty neat and they are rarely 'sculpture morphed' either. If your figure morphs as robustly as the unimesh that would be really nice but wow I just love Antonia the way she is... really.

I agree with momo being able to get good emotions out of that face would be the best thing while morphs are important. I notice the one thing people who are non-3d artists dislike about poser artwork is the lack of good facial expressiveness.

The reason I asked for morph requests is that I think shape morphs will be much easier to do than expression morphs. So I figured I'd do maybe half a dozen of those for practice and to establish my workflow before starting with the actual expression morphs, which are still my top-priority, morph-wise. And while at it, I might as well try to do ones that people are interested in. But yes, the general idea is to let Antonia out "into the wild" as soon as reasonably possible, so people can start working on their own favorite extensions and modifications.

I should probably stress another point momodot made: while it's nice to have some versatility in a figure, that is not that high on my list of goals for Antonia. I'd like her to look good the way she looks and have a mesh that flows well with the shape and is logically structured. If I've done my job well, that should allow for some flexibility in shape, but certain things - like for example high muscle definition - will still be much easier to achieve with the Millenium figures, because their meshes have been specifically built for it.

Thanks. I think the approach of making specific shapes like the ethnic noses or different eye shapes or lip shapes that appeal to you is sensible if you don't find it a burden --I used to work with very clinical x,y, z scale trans and rot morphs but lately I get more from dialing composits from full character head morphs actually... Then maybe things like lateral jaw movement, lip pursing etc as the building blocks for expressions would make sense for you if you wanted... long ago that is how I started with making expression morphs for Posette... working up from individual feature morphs like snears and squints. I have never used the full face expressions such as found on Don and Judy since they are too simplistic but I have liked the solid expression components on figures like Aiko 3 and Elle and Ester and now even V4. My main problem with the vickies has been the facial expressions while I find the bodies are so versatile I have always prefered them for male figures to the off-the-rack male figures.

Whatever you end up doing... thank you.

Natural looking expressions are the KEY to a good figure!  Other morphs are icing on the cake, but the expressions are the flavor of the cake! The are needed so the actor can ACT.  A lot of the pose figures are used without expression because they don't look right with some of their weird emotion looks.

Look at real people and how their mouth corners fold when they smile, lips wrinkle when they purse their lips, or brows furrow when they think, or eyes scrunch up when they laugh.  It's not available any more, but the Ezster figure had some FANTASTIC expressions! She was available here in the marketplace for a while.  She was only one of a couple of figures I actually bought here because of her face and expressions.

I'd like to thank you,too. This has been fun, and I've learned a ton about character creation! I'll continue to watch this with bated breath for further developments. ^__^V,,

It's a big pro for Antonia that she looks like a real world woman ( big nose .D ). There are enough pin up in the DAZ-zoo.Expressions and phonems are more important to me.

Still slightly under 42k polys (all quads except for eight triangles or so on her gums) for the once subdivided mesh. I'll have to add a tongue and maybe a few more polys at the fingernails, so people can morph them longer. But on the other hand I can probably optimize the gums a bit once the inner mouth is finished and use a few less polys when I redo the eyes, so she should still come at not much more than 40k polys.

I would suggest to make inner mouth as a seperate bodypart
This way it is much more easier to make expression without distorting teeth and also it easier to make teeth morphs

Afterward expressions that influence teeth will be connected with them using ERC

Or else a move Z teeth morph than using that as base for expressions and that will be used as reversed after you make morph would be usefull

I have to agree with Pitklad.  I've done hundreds of facial morphs over the years and the teeth are a PITA to get right.  They may be the main reason why a LOT of models lately are done with seperate teeth as props or as other body parts.

Quote - I have to agree with Pitklad.  I've done hundreds of facial morphs over the years and the teeth are a PITA to get right.  They may be the main reason why a LOT of models lately are done with separate teeth as props or as other body parts.

I'd rather see the teeth as a separate prop to keep the mesh size down myself.

Prop would need manual adjustments for morphs that open jaw
If it is bodypart just  ERC morphs will do the job (that's what I've done on Nea and works like teeth are part of the head)

If I did have to choose between teeth as part of the head and teeth as a prop that had to be posed separately I would choose the latter.

No to be picky but just as it seems to me... the teeth toward the front seem long as from receded gums though the shaping of the different types of teeth looks very nice.

nice job on the teeth