I don't like  the inner mouth to be a seperate Bodypart , because when doing my own (open mouth) face morphs I had to hack the cr2 to make the teeth follow . I am simply not skilled enough for that.It is a main reason for me, why I don't like V4 .In case head and inner mouth will remain in one bodypart you can also select each material zone ore group seperatly in your modelling app - even inside Poser - ,to exclude teeth when creating a face morph .

I've thought about this for a bit now and will most likely make the upper and lower teeth and the tongue(*) a separate body part each. More specifically, I'm thinking about introducing a body part 'jaw' with the lower teeth and gums as their geometry. The 'mouth open' morph will be a JCM following the jaw movement, not the other way round. If you make an alternative morph, you should be able to inject it into the existing channel. But I'm no expert on cr2 magic, so maybe there's some flaw in my glorious plan that I'm not aware of yet.

The teeth come at only 10% of the total polygon weight, so making them a prop to keep the mesh size down doesn't seem very effective. Remember that I'm intending to make the lo-res version with just a little more than 10k polys fully functional, which should make her ideal for background figures and such. Also remember that I'm doing all my modeling on that lo-res version, so you don't lose any detail, just Poser doesn't quite know how to render it nicely.

Momodot, you're right. I looked at my own teeth for reference, which isn't fair, because I'm definitely more long in the tooth than Antonia is meant to be.

("long in the tooth" - I'm killing myself here.)

EDIT: (*) Make that two bodyparts for the tongue, actually: Tongue and TongueTip.

Attached Link: Easy way to make ERC morphs?

Easy! no notepad editing at all!! :biggrin:

Thanks ockham for this precious poser gem! :thumbupboth:

That looks very useful, pitklad. Thanks for the link!

Great,thank you .

Lovely and awesome model! I think I can't say anything that hasn't already been said.

As an add though, I'm not sure how adept you are at rigging, but this may be worth a look. It is a much more detailed rigging setup but the results are spectacular.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2752937

And though I am a big fan of "low poly" modeling, being a modeler myself, it has it's drawbacks as well as benefits. With today's systems it's fairly subjective in terms of weights and balances. As you had mentioned, if subdivision was a possibility within Poser, itself, there would be little issue and the drawbacks of "low poly" models would be a moot point. The major drawback being detailed, 3rd party, morphing of the existing geometry without subdivision. Sure, displacements could be used to simulate some details, but comes with it's own inherent set of limitations and at rendertime it's still as much of a resource hog as is a higher poly model. Regardless, I think the majority of modelers make it a goal to stay at or under a certain poly-count as a rule and I think it is a good thing, but as systems become more powerful it is only natural to raise the bar a bit and alleviate some of your own headaches, as a modeler, to say "okay, maybe a few more thousand polys isn't going to hurt". I for one, am anal about poly count and have some architectural models that I have never released simply because I couldn't get the suckers under 100,000 polys without causing issues or losing detail that I found necessary (but architectural models are another monster altogether hehe). I finally released one recently after it sat on disc for a couple years and I have had no complaints as of yet (Helloween House.... approx 115,000 polys). And it is merely a static prop with no interior designs. Ughh... LOL. However I have done some research and found automotive models and others (very fine models to boot) that average on 200,000-400,000 polys! So, I would say a figure between 30,000 and 100,000, by today's standards may still be acceptable as "low poly".
Just my thoughts ;o)

~Will

I'm not sure whether I should add more detail to the molars in the lo-res mesh or not. That hi-res will have enough resolution to do that, so maybe I could just create a 'detailed teeth' morph for it when I finalize the figure.

Where's the canine teeth at? Ya know, the pointy ones! The ones that vampires have too much of? :blink:

Looking good, I think for the low poly this amount of detail would be fine. And as you say for the higher poly version you can add to it.

I have smaller pointy teeth in the lower jaw,too. :laugh: It's some of the only teeth I have in my mouth. :lol:

Quote - I have smaller pointy teeth in the lower jaw,too. :laugh: It's some of the only teeth I have in my mouth. :lol:

You filed them, admit it. :tt2:

ooo i can't wait to see more antonia

seriously, the canines are in the bottom, too.  only smaller.  right now, hers look filed down.

I think I'm getting pretty close to finalizing the geometry (pending any changes I might do to make her work more smoothly with Phantom3D's rig). After I redid the eyes, she's back down to under 37k polygons, by the way. I wasted way too much mesh there.

better.  just my opinion, but to me they look too flat in terms of thickness and too rounded still.  they look spade like.  it's not so much that they need to be sharper, but that the curve to the tip needs to be less like an oval.

Lower teeth are narrower because they fit inside the upper teeth, otherwise they do look better!  That would make them less 'spade'-like,IMO. Lower teeth have rectangular tops.  Look at your own teeth!  You do have lower teeth? :blink:  Maybe I assume to much? :laugh:

I do have on request for the teeth, please have them with a decent map.

No indecent teeth!  That is a MUST! :laugh:  Looks good to me, now.  You nailed the teeth! Yay!

'Nailed the teeth'...that doesn't sound right to me. Sound like a nightmare to Dentaphobic people. LOLOLOL :lol: You did good!  Sounds better!

they do look very good, and i think you're right to wait on detailing until you're working in context. 

The top teeth look a little wide at the back. I think most peoples top back teeth line up almost evenly ( on the X axis ) with the bottom even if the have a overbite. Hey I could be wrong but mine are pretty even. Other than that there looking good.

Quote - The top teeth look a little wide at the back. I think most peoples top back teeth line up almost evenly ( on the X axis ) with the bottom even if the have a overbite. Hey I could be wrong but mine are pretty even. Other than that there looking good.

I guess you may be right. I'll have a look at that.

Although it shouldn't matter too much, because one hardly looks at the outsides of a person's back teeth in an everyday situation.

Oh, and did I mention new eyes with much fewer polygons? She's back to just over 37k, including teeth and all. Or just over 9k in the lo-res version. Even with some more minor adjustment, I'll stay clear of the magical 10k.

That's not bad at all! 37K is not bad for a 'hi-rez' version. Especially if the lo-poly version is only 9K? WOW, that is VERY impressive to my mind. Especially looking so good!  Damned good work.

She looks better and better. :)

As with all new models I have a question

What about hair? How does hair for say either V4 or V3 look on her? Are you planning on releasing some hair with her?

All I can say is "WOW" and can't wait for her release. 

Quote - > Quote - The top teeth look a little wide at the back. I think most peoples top back teeth line up almost evenly ( on the X axis ) with the bottom even if the have a overbite. Hey I could be wrong but mine are pretty even. Other than that there looking good.

I guess you may be right. I'll have a look at that.

Although it shouldn't matter too much, because one hardly looks at the outsides of a person's back teeth in an everyday situation.

I agree. The pic you posted of the teeth from the back actually looks fine it's the front view that looked a little off. I doesn't really matter though like you said. How many renders do you see someone pulling thier upper lip up past thier teeth? BTW are the teeth going to be a seperate bodyparts from the head?

Quote - BTW are the teeth going to be a seperate bodyparts from the head?

That's the current plan. Will have to see how it goes.

Quote - As with all new models I have a question
s

What about hair? How does hair for say either V4 or V3 look on her? Are you planning on releasing some hair with her?

I was planning to make some hair for her eventually, but if I wait with the release until all the little details are sorted out, you guys will wait forever. I've done some tests with Kozaburo hair props and quick magnet fittings, which didn't look too bad, but I haven't tried any more elaborate hair figures.

I'm thinking that the first release will be very bare-bones. I'll call it the development and evaluation release and put it online as soon as I get the rigged version from Phantom3D, merged it into the final figure and had some quick testing done to iron out the worst kinks. It will have a rather restricted, strictly non-commercial license to prevent merchants from selling products for a half-finished figure.

Then hopefully the community will contribute with lots of feedback and add-ons like textures, props, clothes etc., maybe even a UV-map - because frankly, I've never done one or even made a texture, and I'd probably suck at it - that will go into the final release. As I mentioned before, she will be free - at the very least as in beer. Personally, I'm happy to let anyone have to the geometry and do with it whatever they want as long as they give proper credit. I'll have to check with Mike how he would like the rig licensed, though, seeing as he is thinking about using it for other figures as well.

Someone asked about scaling on the rigg, specifically the pear shape and waist. (momodott?) I'm setting that up now.

First pic is of the hips waist and upper legs scaled up.

The scaling all seems to be working out good.  the second hip was all I was unsure of, but it seems to work fine and still bends well.  I am wanting to be able to set up full scaling for the hands and feet as well so you can have shorter hands and longer fingers or whatever you wish.

Looking great :D

Attached Link: Xanna for V4.2

Are you implementing body handles to control breast/buttock and thigh masses? I figure a hell of a lot of breast morphs can be avoided with a properly zoned body handle for the breasts... I have used them for shaping as well as gravity and movement. Sara even had body handles for facial expressions IRC. I saw an amazing animation of expresions by body handle on YouTube once... a zBrush figure I think it was.

As for body morphs... if this is to be a dream figure, what do people think of an external magnet control rig in place of FBM's? I mean such as the Xanna control by K3D... the demo examples are stylized but I had used it to get terrific realistic body types when I had a computer to slow to operate with the loaded V4 .cr2. Xanna characters can also be distributed by pose and I imagine by simple cut-and-paste of dial settings. It is a great alternative to morphs and it deforms clothes to match the figure deforms. Anyway, with Xanna I was able to make light characters by sculpting the figure with the controller and magnet rig and then spawning the reults as a morph with a script. It was a system resource saver at least in my case. Though I have used it less now that I have a better machine.

Also, should there be individual finger grasp and spread on the hand part?

What do people think for that matter of posing with dials on the main body or a single alternate body part dial set... like the morph forms on some G2 and V4.2 compound poses?  I find them interesting in that poses could be distributed as cut-and-paste dial setting but I think it must be "all or nothing" since controlling say only the head and torso from the body and the limbs separitely is impossibly confusing. Do people using William-the-Bloody's Pose Magic control prop (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=55166&vendor=38802) find that workable or does any tweeking directly by mouse tool or body part dial then screw everything up? That tool even controls facial expressions from the control prop. I don't know what I think about this... posing is certainly easy and fun with the WtB tool but sometimes I get muddled in the fine tuning.

Anyway, you guys work is amazing! Thank you.

Attached Link: Xanna at RMP

Details NUDITY NSFW!!!!
http://www.kaposer.com/XannaV4tutorial.htm

Mike, those look great. I really like it that you're going to make all the scaling controls fully functional. There's a lot of unused potential there in existing figures.

ODF
That's good about the teeth bodyparts. Makes it  much easier to create head morphs without warping the inner mouth.

Phantom
The scaling is looking really good.

Momodot
That Xanna magnet thing is awesome. I while back I was wondering if that could be done in Poser. ERC slaving multiple magnets to a master magnet. Sort of a lord of the rings thing. One magnet to rule them all. Lol.  Yeah the great thing about magnets is you can tranfer to clothes very easily. I don't know about the embedded in the figure stuff like V4, G2's etc. I think it bloats the figure too much but an outside controller like that would be very cool.

Momodot I was indeed thinking of using magnets for the buttocks region, since with this new type rig that part now spans 2 and possibly three groups and while JCM's will do the job for what I had in mind it would involve two,possibly three morphs for the JCM, and since that area now spans two groups I cannot use a body handle as is my want.  But a magnet would do the trick nicely being able to span groups with no problem.  Also if I'm not misunderstanding a magnet can also be linked to a bone ROT just like a JCM. For the breast however, I am going to use a simple body handle.

Quote - Mike, those look great. I really like it that you're going to make all the scaling controls fully functional. There's a lot of unused potential there in existing figures.

I agree, the controles are already in the rigg and may as well be used.

Quote - I'll have to check with Mike how he would like the rig licensed, though, seeing as he is thinking about using it for other figures as well.

I can answer that right now.  A bit of a rant, but I don't believe in saying someone else can't use my ideas just because I thought of it first. Knowledge, knowing how to do something, is a function of the mind and is free to all of us. Rigging is not something you can just pop into a new figure and use, you're going to have to move things around and fit it to the geometry of the new figure, so your JP's are going to be different anyway. So anyone can use my rigging ideas anyway they wish. There has been too much of this I thought of it so you can't use it stuff, and it's rediculous. A mesh is a different story it's a tangible object and is copyrightable, However the methods and techniques used to create the mesh are not and can be freely used. Know what I mean?

well that's my answer.

cheers

Mike.

Quote -
I can answer that right now.  A bit of a rant, but I don't believe in saying someone else can't use my ideas just because I thought of it first. Knowledge, knowing how to do something, is a function of the mind and is free to all of us. Rigging is not something you can just pop into a new figure and use, you're going to have to move things around and fit it to the geometry of the new figure, so your JP's are going to be different anyway. So anyone can use my rigging ideas anyway they wish. There has been too much of this I thought of it so you can't use it stuff, and it's rediculous. A mesh is a different story it's a tangible object and is copyrightable, However the methods and techniques used to create the mesh are not and can be freely used. Know what I mean?

I couldn't agree more. Glad we're on the same page there.

I agree. You can copyright a painting, but not the idea of paints, in another manner of speaking,

Don't you touch my meshes,though! :laugh: I'll have a lawyer bite ya!

Well, a LOT of people appreciate you guy's generosity in this... not only as a practical matter but very very much for the principal in it. Man, I love getting to witness this kind of work even if it is "look but don't touch".  And I get to touch?!

She looks really characterful - and I love her armpits.

Looks good. I find Uv mapping a pain in the arse, but then again I don't have much patience for the tedious aspects of 3d creation. What program do you use for uv's? I like Blender myself ( makes things pretty easy even for a noob like me).

At the moment I'm using the free demo version of UV Layout, which means that I have 40 days to complete the maps.

I know I should learn Blender one of those days, but I keep putting it off. I had a look at it a long time ago and even ordered the manual on Amazon. But years and years went by and the manual never happened. Maybe things are better now instruction-wise.