Is it just me, or has the entire focus of Carrara taken a "Backseat"  to DAZ-studio-type products.

Many C5 users thought C6 had issues/bugs, (not the least of which was the existence of a boxed version) which went unfixed.

And they reacted, understandably, by waiting, and waiting, for a boxed version.
It nave came, so they never bought.

SO what did DAZ do in return (READ: Retaliation)?

Well....have you noticed that there's no price break for a Carrara 5-to-Carrara 7 upgrade?

So, what I get from all this is: "Buy the upgrades, buggy or not, incomplete or not, hard copy or not, or "Start from scratch", because the C6 boat has sailed."

Am I alone in the belief that a "hard" copy and a manual ought to be rights of software ownership?

So be it. For me, at least, it's "No Disk, No Book, No SALE!"

Not to worry. I'm just one (lost) customer.

Intro,
Obviously you are entitled to your prefs, but we have a digital economy now and it is becoming increasingly common to not have manuals or boxes. Particularly the manuals. You can pay plenty of money and still get a box with a disk, at best. I think if portable readers were less expensive and more prevalent it wouldn't be a big issue to have paper, just something easy to use and hold in your hands.

Hi intro,

i feel the same exactly as you. Years ago there are more pioneers and dreamers in the 3D industry, Metacreations was one of the best, now all the products they have sold to others (including Carrara, especially now at DAZ) are not softwares with that spirit. Regarding me i really admire software (and people behind them) like Modo, 3D Coat, Zbrush, Moi and a few others. Maybe i'll buy C7, but for sentimental reasons above all because Carrara was my first approach to 3d and when i open it i feel at home:-)

-TOXE

I do feel your pain. I have a long list of things I miss. However, many other things are much higher on the list than Eovia.

Well,, I don't want to start a crusade either. I "cut my teeth" on RayDream, and I still love Carrara.
It's just since DAZ got a hold of it, the focus has changed.Clearly their agenda is about blazing a money trail, rather than a finished product.

I can understand that a company needs to earn a profit or whats the point of development on any product but as a consumer my needs are base on features not content and because of a lack of these features I have had to migrate to other programs (Lightwave, Modo, Vue...) Thats not to say I dont use Carrara any more - just not as much and with the current upgrade it will be a while before I upgrade if I upgrade at all.

I wonder if under Evoia or Metacreations if we would have a cloth or soft bodies solution by now.

So I´m not the last dinosaur here? I too love those little art-covered boxes containing a couple of CD´s, some bonus offers and a PRINTED MANUAL. I could easy pay a 50$ extra for a printed manual.

For me Daz was the second worse thing that could happen to Carrara, only Corel would be worse. That said I don´t think Daz is a bad company, they´re just not just right for Carrara. When I bought My first Carrara 3 I think It was a "cutting edge" product when it comes to high end features to a low price.

I jumped from Carrara 3 to 5 and thought I might go from 5 - 7 now and give Daz a chance. When I saw they left us old Eovia users out in the cold by not launching a rebated upgrade from v5 I too decided to leave Carrara for other software. Besides I do not like the direction the developement has taking, like you said; Carrara is now a backseat app to Daz flagship, Daz Studio.

I will probably continnue to use  C5 for a long time, I still thing it´s a powerful app in many areas but perhpas it is time to learn someting new...

Well I can't say Eovia was perfect. I do think C5 was an exceptional release, didn't think that about c4 at all. The content changes to C actually have been important. The features for this release are trying not to be about content.  I think bug fixing is very important. I think that  and workflow are more important than many features. Many users have pointed out to DAZ that they need to work on their software marketing. So that may happen. They do actually ask for customer feedback to some extent so that is important. I honestly think adding dynamic hair and cloth should have come after other major design issues, like multi-pass and layers support. The poser market is big tho and others are even adopting the content model. Obviously Eovia was hurting or they wouldn't have needed to sell. ATM markets are tougher than ever so companies have to try to stay afloat.

Particularly in the US, since we have shipped all our jobs overseas and stopped creating new ones here. Since tons of people are now homeless here, unemployed w/ no health care and numbers rising. Not to mention similar problems or worse worldwide. In the scheme of things this is nothing.

I totally agree intro! I want a hard copy, and a written book! I asked if a boxed copy of C7 would be provided and was ignored. So, I'm guessing the days of hard copies and books you can hold and read through, and mark notes in is gone. Sad, very sad!

The manual is in pdf format, but doesn't appear to be updated from the last version.

I am in possession of a real Carrara 5 Pro boxed version. Here is what I expected; a detailed manual, beautifully illustrated with tutorials on what to make with splines, vertex, and the mysterious meatball object (you know like the manual I received with MetaCreations Raydream 3D-perhaps you don’t). What I really received was a box (large enough for a detailed manual), two CD’s one the application CD, the other a CD containing worthless advertising and a foldout chart with worthless keystroke functions for operations that are easily accessible by functions within a given room be it assembly, model, storybook, texture or render.   The box is real purdy though. Oh yes did I mention that it comes with a .pdf manual that gives the Poser manual a good name. 

Yeah, I want a lap manual too.

Jan

I just downloaded the C7 manual, its 276 pages longer then the C6 that I had downloaded for 6.2.  Its about 40 megs larger as well.  Its about 1-2 megs larger then the 6.5 temp version, and 24 pages longer as well.

The manual is in the wiki. I 've ordered from major sw vendors  and got a box w/ a disk. I personally think paper is obsolete, but w/o good affordable book readers so you can carry your books around to read at your leisure paper books are better than an electronic book. I am surprised that a good affordable book reader didn't happen ages ago. The screen and ergonomics are different than a computer or even a PDA.

One of the things I like about paper is its PRAM, you stick bookmarks in various sections and go back and forth or have both there at the same time.

PRAM=Plugger's Random Access Memory.  Jan

I think I'm done. DAZ had NOTHING to do with the CARRARA I own. I think a day will come when they sell it off to someone else. Until then, I'll use 5.1 Pro when it works( for most of my purposes it's still great) and get C4D or 3DS max for when it doesn't.

Sad, tho... Carrara and RayDream both represented and entirely new approach to  3-D modeling that one would have expected to interest (and be emulated by) higher-end apps.

Sad, too... because Carrara-heads (Some of whom have been around since AMIGA) are a unique and somewhat renegade bunch. Kinda like Linux users. Honorable affectations, both. And I imagine they'll be waiting in the wings for the "other shoe to drop".

That shoe will drop when sales do.

You reap what you sew.

And don't even get me started on Hexagon...sheesh.

My C5 came with the book and all the "goodies" when I opened it, I felt like it was a great purchase. I felt rewarded for my loyalty to the company. I felt "special".  Since DAZ, I feel,I don't know..."shelved".  Charge more if you must, but don't take away the option of hard copy just because it doesn't fit your business model of "total ether-product". Heck! Soon enough, you won't need to have employees!!  That's what this is about, ISN'T IT?? A money machine.

Look: DAZ is fine, but to me it feels like the difference between model making and "paint by numbers" or stick-on decals. Buy a scene, buy figures ( usually a Big -Busted V3 with a bad@ss sword) buy some props, and render. 

Like a TV Dinner.

I guess I've just lost my appetite.

My Corel Painter didn't come with a printed book, most of the software doesn't come with books that are printed.  I took the PDF from C6 and went down and had it printed and bound.

Quote - My Corel Painter didn't come with a printed book, most of the software doesn't come with books that are printed.  I took the PDF from C6 and went down and had it printed and bound.

Gad, you got to be kidding!  My PaintShop Pro Ver 7.1 (BC) came with an outstanding manual and all for under $50.

BC =  Before Corel (JASC).  Sure learn'ng about what not to invest in.  So far Poser and
Vue still come with a manual---I think!  Jan

Yeah, I know you can have your pdf printed, but for $250, should you have to?
 
It's like "Reverse Capitalism" : Once the development costs go down you can give the customer MORE (not LESS) for the money, and still make a profit.

Whatever...they don't need to listen to me. And my money is accepted all over town.

IMHO Carrara peaked at 5.1. Some may not agree. But If I were DAZ, I'd worry.

Quote - Yeah, I know you can have your pdf printed, but for $250, should you have to?
 
It's like "Reverse Capitalism" : Once the development costs go down you can give the customer MORE (not LESS) for the money, and still make a profit.

Whatever...they don't need to listen to me. And my money is accepted all over town.

IMHO Carrara peaked at 5.1. Some may not agree. But If I were DAZ, I'd worry.

-- $250  or more and right on!!!

I agree with you intro.  I started with Ray Dream, but used trueSpace for my main modeler. When Carrara came out, I pretty much switched, as trueSpace and its massive icon inventory became too busy for me (though, quite frankly, IMHO, trueSpace was/is a more powerful modeler).  Eovia staff had this can-do, imagination driven development philosophy, wheras DAZ has this content driven mentality -- like a Walmart for 3D stuff.

Something got lost along the way.  DAZ offers a much better deal on upgades if you are one of those DAZ model collection junkies, and belong to their junkie club. Simply being a long term Eovia customer puts one in the second class status for upgrading.  I just upgraded to Vue 7 Infinite.  I won't be upgrading to Carrara 7 from 6.2.

I wonder if DAZ takes the time to visit these forums. They might find the comments here "food for thought".

Or they might be glad to be rid of the lot of us.

After all, they bought a competitor. Maybe they just wanted Carrara out of the way.

I just priced Carrara 6 at Purplus. $449.00!
That's more than Carrara 7.  That's "Raw" Not an upgrade.
Hmmmm.
What does one gather from this?

Old software more expensive than new releases?
Do they know something about the value of their new version that WE DON'T?
I'd say DAZ is "burning bridges".

But If they have a better explanation, I'd like to hear it.

But I probably won't....

The problem w/ the manuals is books are costly to print and bad for the environment. The paper books are harder to update, ship and make changes too also. Of course w/ our current situation electronics have issues w/ the environment as well. However, I understand wanting to just sit and read being desirable. DAZ is a content company. They make the bulk of their money off of PA's. It's a symbiotic relationship. Obviously it work's as a model or they couldn't have purchased Carrara. I don't think they saw Carrara as a competitor to their business. But rather an entire package inline w/ their goals. They got a long term user group that overlapped their users. Complete sw w/ dev's and all.

Yes. But have they forgotten how that  "user group" (read: customer base) came to be?
Have they taken the time to understand or cultivate it?
I'm thinkin' we're an afterthought.
We no longer "fit" their agenda.

Funny thing about loyalty: It's hard to find. It's easy to lose. It's never owed, It's always earned.

"The problem w/ the manuals is books are costly to print and bad for the environment."
Some are willing to pay for that cost, and most paper is now produced from tree farms, and has recycle capability.  My recent purchase of Vue 7I included the hardcopy manual -- for an extra charge.
More like; DAZ doesn't consider Carrara a serious enough application to offer hardcopy manuals as an option.

Quote - "The problem w/ the manuals is books are costly to print and bad for the environment."
Some are willing to pay for that cost, and most paper is now produced from tree farms, and has recycle capability.  My recent purchase of Vue 7I included the hardcopy manual -- for an extra charge.
More like; DAZ doesn't consider Carrara a serious enough application to offer hardcopy manuals as an option.

True. So ...why should WE?

Well DAZ's model is an electronic download content company, who is always having a sale. Most of that content is made by PA's. So they would have to be willing or able to adjust to change that. I don't see any indicators that that will be changing anytime soon. An option of a hard copy would have been nice.
I personally have just been annoyed that affordable e-readers haven't been available. Even now they aren't. There's one company that you can get one from w/ a book subscription. I like reading and being able to sit down and read where I want, but paper books are difficult  to update and I find they take up waay too much space and are heavy to move. The bookshelves I have would be much better served being used for something else. Storing books, moving them and getting rid of them just gets old. So much easier to find things electronically than via paper also. The maintenance is ridiculous.

Quote - Am I alone in the belief that a "hard" copy and a manual ought to be rights of software ownership?

99.9% of the time when you buy  a software program you are buying an end-user license agreement.  You're supposed to read it before clicking on: "Yes, I agree to these terms."

The software company still owns the program.  Not you.  Not ever.  And they can terminate your EULA with them at any time.  You have no rights to the software ever.

I had to pay an extra $29 + shipping for my hardcover of the Carrara Pro 5 manual.  It didn't come in the box.  It didn't have any printed foldout like Carrara Pro 4 came with.

Me personaly, if I'm paying more than $249 for a program, I'd like to have a book incuded.

Quote -

Look: DAZ is fine, but to me it feels like the difference between model making and "paint by numbers" or stick-on decals. Buy a scene, buy figures ( usually a Big -Busted V3 with a bad@ss sword) buy some props, and render. 

Like a TV Dinner.

     There is a bit more to it than that if you want your render to look like you didn't just throw shit together and hit render. I know that some people do that ... in fact a lot of people do that but  when they do it looks like that's exactly what they did. Hell I  did it myself when I first started (though minus the huge knockers thing,  that just was never my thing) but when you are trying to get an idea out you cant just use things that are completely pre-made you have to do some work yourself lighting, posing just right without using stock poses that are never quite right no matter how close they are to what you want, camera angle, composition and preferably a unique character.

         That said I also think DAZ could do a bit better at least with how they are handleing Carrara, a box version would be nice for those who desire them, I am not one of them since I like to have my product  available as soon as I have paid for it, besides I can print out my manual as I need it if I want so the book thing doesn't bother me but as I said it would be nice to have the option for a hard copy for those that want them.

This is one of the silliest threads I have ever read.  Please, join us in the 21st century.  When a full color, searchable manual is available, the hard copy is nothing more than fire starting material.  In the old days, we wished for a searchable, electronic manual.   Now it's here, and luddites come crawling out of the woodwork to bawl.

May I invite you to punish DAZ by not purchasing this excellent software - that will teach them a lesson!

Sheesh.

@ shonner  Agreed.
But when you download without so much as a disc to hold, even tho you don't "OWN" the rights, at least you're not "ONE CRASH" away from nothing.
BTW I Don't mean to disparage DAZ as a program, or those who use it.
If you browse my gallery, you'd KNOW I lack the skills to get authoritative.
DAZ 3D and its users produce excellent images.

This is about Carrara.

When I see software passed around between corporations, I can't help but think of Pro sports.

Like for instance the UTAH "JAZZ". What does Utah have to do with jazz?
Only a commodity traded, some 25 years ago between millionaires.

I've seen this "franchise". owned by FOUR companies. I've seen it improve. I've seen it NOT improve.

Like a car, or anything else, WHO owns it MATTERS!
Some kids can turn a "beater" into a hot  rod.
Some kids can slam a Lexus into a tree.

At the moment, DAZ has the keys.
I feel like a fretful parent: This could be a long night.

@klebnor

Thanks for the idea!
I believe I'll take you up on that.

I'm sure DAZ will thank you for your help.

Regarding "one crash away from nothing", my experience with DAZ over the years has shown that they bend over backwards to ensure that software which has been purchased is available.  I tend to backup constantly, so this has rarely been an issue, but they reset downloads promptly for users who have problems.

It is difficult to adjust to new methods, but at some time we all look around and realize things have changed and we now accept what was one unthinkable as the status quo ante.

Klebnor mit Spaetzle

Oh boy, a non-reading virtual philosopher! Only Luddites now read printed material? I suppose those who use complete sentences, read novels, newspapers and know that in a contest,( Luddite) Morse coders beat-out new wave 21 first century text messengers, are all Luddites?

 I've been using computers since the LGP30 tube / transistor hybrid, and never considered someone who also enjoys reading manuals a Luddite.  I like both PDF manuals, AND printed ones. I even spent a couple of years publishing electronic (PDF) technical manuals.

The really silly attitude here is to criticize those who like printed manuals as well as electronic ones, and simply like the option of having one. Some folks use both hemispheres of their brain, not just one.

"only luddites now read printed material?"

Change the context and introduce an exaggerated claim, not made in the original statement, and it makes for a nice easy straw man to knock down, doesn't it?

Morse-coders?  A horse is faster than a riding lawn mower, so why don't we abandon internal combustion vehicles and go back to hay burners.  Very eco-friendly too.  Ironically, a reverent reference to morse code likely is indicative of a luddite proclivity.

Manuals are specifically designed for reference to technical data.  Frankly, I am quite pleased with a software design house that dispenses with unnecessary costs like printing and shipping manuals (and discs for that matter).  This leaves more resources for development, and decreases unit costs.

"Some folks use both hemispheres of their brain, not just one."  Folks is plural, therefore what you meant to say is "Some folks use both hemispheres of their brains, not just one."  Perhaps you were only using the right hemisphere when you wrote that.

This statement, while trite, is true ... in fact most people use both sides of their brains constantly as each side controls motor functions in the opposite side of the body.  It makes walking difficult if you only use one side.

Well, back to Carrara 7.  Look ma, no manual!

Quote - This is one of the silliest threads I have ever read.  Please, join us in the 21st century.  When a full color, searchable manual is available, the hard copy is nothing more than fire starting material.  In the old days, we wished for a searchable, electronic manual.   Now it's here, and luddites come crawling out of the woodwork to bawl.

You remind me of the 451F crowd.  I prefer to have both books "and" PDFs.

On average, I read about a book a week.  I have for years.  I do not advocate burning books, nor can this be inferred from my posts.

I do not, however, generally read software manuals for enlightenment or pleasure.

Nor do I, when stuck to remember a function or technique, reach for a paper manual.  I open another window and search for what I want, in the PDF manual or on-line.

Many people find it physically uncomfortable to read, at length, on their computer screen. The best of both worlds would be to have an e-book manual and a hard copy. Some people would be willing to pay extra for this. 

I find pdfs an excruciating pain in the backside!

But, I am 76!

The world can NO LONGER afford the luxury of newspapers / printed books--FULL STOP!

Now all this wase of electricty used on this thread also is not on--either!

Brian

The world can afford printed books. Have you seen how cheap paper is? Wood is a replenishable resource. In addition, it allows you to read for hours at a time without the burning of fossil fuel to power your computer.  

As long as the powers that be stuff my mailbox with bulk mail advertisements, I just can't take the green propaganda seriously. 

Look. I just like to work a model, technique, or whatever, on my screen without having to screw around with a .pdf.  Is that wrong??

As far as  attitudes, Klebnor...you DID call me a "Luddite". You DID insinuate that I was "living in another century".

No offense intended, but don't pitch insults, and then act like a victim when you're called out for it.

BTW if this thread is so "silly" (your word was "silliest") WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?

Intro,  most of us are right there with you.  I too want a hard bound tech manual on my lap while working out a problem with the software.  I'm before the baby boomer generation.  Saying that we like modern and new stuff but not all modern and new stuff eg I like cell phones, but I don't want a cell phone that takes pictures, downloads "music", plays games and tells me the temperature and my pulse rate, I want an Andy Rooney cell phone that  is simply a phone.

"Music"  Don't get me started on that.  Jan

Carrara is simply a one stop shop for me which is why I've continued to use it (plus, I don't want to go through learning a new program).

I have used Amapi for certain modeling needs (almost none).  The Amapi interface has a few aspects to it which are overwhelmingly maddening for me.  Where the XY coordinates of the cursor are is one of my most hated things for Amapi.  I have yet to be able to figure out how the heck that works.

When C became capable of importing Poser/DAZ figures, the user base made an interesting shift.  From my perspective, the original C user community were a small niche that liked to model and render and try all kinds of weird rendering stuff.  Most of the discussions in the forum were technical (not only for newbies which is always great but also from heavy hitting users that were trying to do really whacked out stuff) and were answering questions about how to get some kind of new type of result.  A perfect example is the tutorial I recently posted showing how to do the planet halo.  I cooked that up to solve a user problem a long time ago.  The forum was chock o block full of VERY cool stuff like that.

The forum was a lot of fun for me then.  Now that the user community contains a lot more people who are much more interested in importing already made models and textures to create scenes, we don't see as much of the bigger trickier weirder stuff.

The gallery clearly shows this aspect.  We hardly ever had people (human figures/models) in any of the renders.  Now we are dominated by them.  The reason is that people like to render people and when you make it easy to do that, it will happen.

My job has taken away a lot of my time from C.  Other forces have reduced my attention to my art as well (like the fact that they redid Star Trek with all new Enterprise scenes and they didn't screw it up and it's totally amazing so I don't feel the need to generate my own stuff as much).

From my point of view, the next BIG place for C to go is by making a whole new set of animation toolsets which could push the package into the Lightwave arena.  If you really wanted to make the code worthwhile for an upgrade (which 6 to 7 was more of a bug fix deally and functionality wasn't much of an upgrade interest for me), then we need to get to where C could do big animations really easy and the user community would be making things like commercials and little movies that we'd be seeing on Youtube a TON more.  I know animations are out there and that it's not too crazy to get them made but C could be a lot better for animation.  I think that's the next step for it.

One last dig, why didn't anybody every take my recommendations to get the metaball modeler fixed up?  Being able to enter the XYZ coords for an individual metaball with manipulators we have in the assembly room would be a HUGE addition.

I'm going back to work on the Millenium Falcon.

Speaking of strange and weird technical problems to solve, here's one.  C wouldn't take any shader I applied to an object which I have used 3D boolean on.  In order to overcome this weird problem, I had to apply a new shader domain to the object (a new complete name) so C would allow me to apply a shader other than Default.  I could even take an object into the browser and back into a brand new file and the problem would persist (dragging the original default shader along).  Weird.  An easy solution once you know it and something I'm sure the forum community could have solved if I hadn't been able to bash it out myself.

Quote - Look. I just like to work a model, technique, or whatever, on my screen without having to screw around with a .pdf.  Is that wrong??

As far as  attitudes, Klebnor...you DID call me a "Luddite". You DID insinuate that I was "living in another century".

No offense intended, but don't pitch insults, and then act like a victim when you're called out for it.

BTW if this thread is so "silly" (your word was "silliest") WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?

1 - No, that's not wrong.  Going on a Carrara forum and bashing the current owner for not catering to a diminishing customer requirement is also not wrong.  Expecting that no one will disagree with you is wrong.  Taking statements out of context is wrong.  Exaggerating and creating false quotes is wrong.

2 - I did not call anyone specific a luddite.  If you identified with the behavior, so be it.  Why do you put "living in another century" in quotation marks, when it is not a direct quote?

3 - No offense taken.  Exactly how did I act like a victim?

4 - Point well taken.  No need to shout.  I am here for the entertainment.  Thanks for playing along.

Klebnor, Ein Koenig unter den Bieren

Klebnor back-peddles, too.

Quote - Klebnor back-peddles, too.

Good one!  Absent an actual contribution to the debate, but unable to contain himself, he pitches meaningless nonsense from the sideline.

You must be so proud.

Now you're showing us your true colors here by trolling.  That is an easy way out for you.

I do thing the discussions have changed. I would like to see more on developing skills, not fixing shaders and morphs. Don't get me wrong it has it's place, but has gone the other way. There is a webinar on the 30th, I believe for C7 which will be archived in the daz wiki so some might care to check it out for information. The webinar signup it listed in the daz commons. Also sparrowhawke appears to be working on a cloth sim plugin.

Hey Klebnor.... I thought you were here for the entertainment.
Perhaps, not as much fun when you're the headliner.

Still enjoying it, thanks for your concern.

By the way ShawnDriscoll, the word you were looking for was backpedals.

I do not seek a way out, easy or otherwise.  I stand by my posts.  Eovia no longer exists.  Providing boxes and manuals is a high cost strategy in an age where electronic delivery of software is accelerating, and the marginal unit cost of delivery approaches zero.  This choice is up to the manufacturer.  I personally do not want to pay for a manual which will sit on a shelf (when a searchable PDF is available), nor do I want precious financial resources spent on such production, printing, handling and mailing.

Carrara 7 is a serious upgrade, addressing many issues and incorporating significant new functionality.  DAZ continues to devote resources to develop this product for which I am grateful, manual or not.