Hello,
how is the render quality of Poser 7 / PoserPro compared to Carrara?
Is Carrara better?  I will not be able to do a lot of testing myself
(and there is no trial version for C7).

Any comparison should ignore the modelling tool in C7, I'm only
interested in the render quality. And, can Poser's shader trees
be used / converted, or are C7 owners cursed to download and
reapply all new materials?

Thanks,
   Michael

I think Carrara renders a little more clearly, and the images don't need as much postwork. You can certainly make larger scenes with more people and props in them.

The materials don't convert exactly, but very closely. In particular, you'll almost certainly have to change the values for bump maps. Highlights are handled a little differently, too.

On the other hand, I still really like Poser for setting up scenes, especially doing things like walk cycles for animations.

It all comes down to likes & dislikes and to if you can bring out the best or not. I do prefer Poser Pro's rendering engine. I'm used to it and after all these years of using Poser I'm starting to learn how to use it a lot better.

I don't get the same results in Carrara at all and personally I don't like the way the rendering engines renders. To get the results I do desire it takes me long time setting up the correct lights and still it's not what I do want.

Comparing galleries would be best, there you can see what each rendering engine is capable off and how the outcome could look.

Unfortunately Posers shader trees are not supported with C7, so you typically will have to do some adjustment of the textures/shaders. C7 typically does a better job than C6 did, but you seldom get a prefect translation.

I just installed Poser 7 Pro a few days ago, but from what l've done with it so far, I still prefer rendering in C7 Pro. IMHO, C7 has a better render engine than Poser/FireFly. But, in the right hands either one is very capable of great renders. I'm no lighting expert, but I can get pretty decent renders out of  Carrara - I have great difficulty acheiving similar results in Poser.

For me, adjusting the textures/shaders in Carrara is a minor inconveniance to get results I like. C7 also has multipass rendering now, which is a great tool to use for improving your render in post. The HDRI and GI lighting in C7 is very easy to use and get great results. Below are links to a couple images done with light domes C7.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1832144
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1816396

The next two images were done with C6 and C4 using HDRI images for lighting *(warning - the first one contains nudity!!!).
*http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1792677&member
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=887298&member

Bottom line, both applications can produce great results in the proper hands, but I find Carrara to provide better results. Hope this helps.

Hi,
thanks a lot!  Yes I guess I get the general consensus:
Both programs are not far apart, and good knowledge in one of them can
be more valuable than the technical quality of the other.

Best regards,
   Michael
 

i'm pretty inteseting in this thread !

as i search a better way to render out my poser7 work (bored of poser 7 render engine).

I wonder if i can cash again for a software, i have my bottom between 2 chairs (french expression) : Vue 7 ou Carrara 7....

if anybody have dual experience with P7+C7 or P7+ C7, i would really thank him to share his feelings here.

In another way, i wonder too, if i will (now or further again) change my old hardware....

good day !

I have all versions of Poser (from 4 through Pro) and I am a great fan of it.

BUT

I have also had Carrara since version 5 (I am presently installing the 7.1 update.)

Honestly, though, Carrara has been a long haul for me.  It requires a lot of relearning and I have not had the time to sit down and learn it like I did with Poser.

That said, I have been doing a lot of render tests lately and here is what I have concluded.

The latest version of Carrara is hands down faster then Poser (Pro of 7).

It is not 64bit and will not access more then 2GB of memory (where as Poser Pro will during render).

This does not matter, though as it (Carrara) is a much more efficient render engine. (I have not pressed limits, though, I might sing a different tune with something like 5 V4s loaded or something liek that).

To master Poser you have to do a lot of "faking".  To truely get great results in an image with Poser you have to learn a lot of little tricks with lighting and the material room.

With Carrara you just have to learn how to use the materials.

(For example, there is still no consensus on the perfect skin texture in Poser... Subsurface scattering is a fake process with varied results.)

Carrara has true subsurface scattering, true caustics (much improved in 7.1) and it does true GI.

Can it produce a better picture?  Well, that can only in the end be determined by the artist.  There are many fine artists who use only Poser (or Daz Studio, for that matter).

What makes Carrara really worth learning is the little extras that it has over Poser.  The ability to turn any object into a light source (new with 7.1 from my understanding), the ability to generate particle effects (though there are some nice products for Poser that allow similiar ability), the ability to generate landscapes (rivalling or even better then Bryce).

What Carrara lacks (from my understanding) is dynamic cloth (though with Transposer and Poser 6 - not Poser 7, sorry - you can import a Poser scene with Dynamic Cloth).

Poser is still much easier to learn and use in the Poser Room, but the true poser of Poser comes in it's Material Room, which requires a lot or reading, experimentation and practice.  For a totally new user, Carrara's Material set ups might be easier... though I'm just starting to wrap my head aroudn them, so I don't know.

Does this help anyone, or am I just babbling?  It's been a long day...

Quote -
Does this help anyone, or am I just babbling?  It's been a long day...

yes, very yes !

I just started working with Carrara (6Pro).  From what I can see and what I have read of other's opinions, Carrara is a much better renderer.  For one thing, it's much faster than Poser/Firefly.  It also has a huge number of options available that, in the hands of a skilled user, can turn out excellent results.

If you were equally skilled with both, Carrara would be the renderer of choice between the two, IMO.

I used Carrara 6 quite a bit over the last year, and loved it.  I'm just getting to know Poser bit by bit now.  I like doing portraits, closeups, etc, and use lots of Poser content.

Carrara still cannot handle Poser figures perfectly.  There were enough episodes of things that just wouldn't work in Carrara for me to finally invest in Poser 7, and not in Carrara 7.

I love the way Carrara renders.  Most materials I can get looking fantastic in Carrara... Except skin, especially closeups, render better in Poser.  I've just never been able to get the skin looking like I want it, and looking like I can get it in Poser.

Any sort of falloff or edge-blend is missing from Carrara materials, so if you like that aspect of Poser materials, you'll miss that.

I like Poser lights better, especially the options in the material room.  I like having separate specular and regular lights.  With that said, I seem to be able to light scenes better with Carrara, but I'm trying to learn Poser.

While most scenes render faster in Carrara, I found that clicking on GI, and/or AO in Carrara pushes it's speed slower that Poser.  I love the materials-based AO option in Poser.  I love having IBL's be light-based instead of scene-based as it is in Carrara. 

I like the results of AO and GI better in Carrara, but I'm not patient enough to wait for it all the time.

That's just my comparison.  Hope it helps.

Indi.

poser7 is good for posing human figures and not for rendering IMVHO.
carrara is not as good as poser for posing human figures, but is good for rendering.
FFRender (poser7) is at about the same point in its evolution as carrara 1 or 2.
poser 7 shader trees are as good as carrara shader trees, but differ in some ways, and the former are too complex for default users AFAICT.  poser 7 shader trees will be even more feature-laden in poser 8, if past experience is any guide, and I also hope they have already jettisoned FFRender for something else.

It is not 64bit and will not access more then 2GB of memory (where as Poser Pro will during render).

If DAZ fix this. Carrara will have my money. I would love to have a render farm and Carrara can do this for me but I guess only having 2GB to use is a waste.

Don't have Vue 7, but I have some experience with Vue 6 Infinite.

Vue 6 Infinite is a full 64 bit application, so it can use up to 128 GB of RAM on XP64/Vista 64 (don't know the limit on Mac OSX).
Comes with a 5 node renderfarm license.
Imports Poser 6 scenes, including dynamic cloth and hair.
Materials need a lot of fixing though.

I've had no trouble rendering scenes with over 30 hires human figures, plus complex environments. Ecosystems allow you to fill the environment with thousands of instances (with variations!) of rocks, plants, and even objects.

I've tried Carrara 5. For setting up a scene, Vue is far more intuitive IMO. The only thing that Carrara did better than Vue was rendering dynamic hair, for the rest, I vastly prefer Vue.

Quote - Don't have Vue 7, but I have some experience with Vue 6 Infinite.

Vue 6 Infinite is a full 64 bit application, so it can use up to 128 GB of RAM on XP64/Vista 64 (don't know the limit on Mac OSX).
Comes with a 5 node renderfarm license.
Imports Poser 6 scenes, including dynamic cloth and hair.
Materials need a lot of fixing though.

I've had no trouble rendering scenes with over 30 hires human figures, plus complex environments. Ecosystems allow you to fill the environment with thousands of instances (with variations!) of rocks, plants, and even objects.

I've tried Carrara 5. For setting up a scene, Vue is far more intuitive IMO. The only thing that Carrara did better than Vue was rendering dynamic hair, for the rest, I vastly prefer Vue.

I have a few questions:

1.)I went to their website. They can import alot of stuff but I couldnt find poser over there. You mean Vue can import pz3 files in some way?

2.) Can Vue also model, rig and animate or it is only for setting up a scene?

1. Vue imports .pz3 files, including animations.
   There's also the option to "host" a .pz3 file, which means you can adjust the .pz3 in Poser and the adjustment will be incorporated in the Vue scene.
   You have the option to import the materials (and tweak them) into Vue, you can also choose to use the Poser shader trees. In the latter case, Firefly will be called to render the Poser elements during the Vue render.

2. Vue is not a modeling application. You can do a little with metablobs and booleans, and that's about it. Rigging: you can do the equivalent of non-bending prop hierarchy "rigging", you can link objects hierarchically, set their pivot points and rotation axes. No full rigging like a Poser figure.
   Animation: yes. You've got a timeline, you can do keyframed animations.
   A nice option is combining a Vue animation with a Poser animation: animate a walk cycle in Poser, import the animation into Vue, and have the walking character follow a walk path in the Vue environment. Works pretty well.

Quote - 1) Vue imports .pz3 files, including animations.
There's also the option to "host" a .pz3 file, which means you can adjust the .pz3 in Poser and the adjustment will be incorporated in the Vue scene.
You have the option to import the materials (and tweak them) into Vue, you can also choose to use the Poser shader trees. In the latter case, Firefly will be called to render the Poser elements during the Vue render.

1. Vue is not a modeling application. You can do a little with metablobs and booleans, and that's about it. Rigging: you can do the equivalent of non-bending prop hierarchy "rigging", you can link objects hierarchically, set their pivot points and rotation axes. No full rigging like a Poser figure.
   Animation: yes. You've got a timeline, you can do keyframed animations.
   A nice option is combining a Vue animation with a Poser animation: animate a walk cycle in Poser, import the animation into Vue, and have the walking character follow a walk path in the Vue environment. Works pretty well.

thanks for the info.  This will help me greatly with what steps I need to work on my dream of creating huge poser scenes for animating and rendering them.

I was thinking since Carrara is 32 bit and could not use more than 2GB of memory...

Would rendering be faster if I have:

4 CPUs render farm each with 2GB of memory using Carrara

or

2 CPUs render farm each with 8GB of memory using Vue?

 I don't find carrara 7 very fast for posing or applying things from runtime libraries.  But I am on a max.
Love esther

Depends on the CPUs. Vue will use quad core CPUs to their fullest, and if you have a dual quad workstation (8 cores) or an Intel i7 based system (4 cores with hyperthreading, presents itself to the OS as 8 cores), those cores will also be used to their fullest.
Also depends on the scene. Large complex scenes will benefit from more RAM, simpler scenes won't. Both Vue and Carrara render much faster than Poser.
Render node licenses in Vue are per IP address, not per CPU or core, so using fewer, higher powered machines may be a good idea.

Quote - Both Vue and Carrara render much faster than Poser.

have you any idea of the factor ? 10% 20% 30% ?

does somebody have bother poser+car (or poser7 + vue) on his same hardware to make a little test with the same figure (imported in car/vue) ? if possible with the same eye-point-view details  ?

I have poser 7 and Poser Pro 7, but never use them.  I switched to Carrara about a year ago and now I find poser frustrating.  It takes some time to get used to posing in Carrara, but once you do it is very intuitive.  The latest version (7.1.1) is very good at allowing free movement of a joint.  One does have to adjust shaders, but that can be done on the fly with Carrara.  Also, constraints can be a bit tight on joints - but you can turn them off.  I also animate, and Carrara is much easier (IMHO) due to the simple and complete control of all objects throughout the time line.

If your hardware can handle it, you can see what you're doing as you create a scene.  Then you can render lightning fast (unlike poser which offers a pukey view and snail like rendering).  The lights are so much better with realistic drop off.

Also, of course, Carrara offers terrain and sky which is simply unavailable in Poser.  The water is excellent.  There are primitives for ocean, fire and emitters for water, snow, etc.

Carrara also allows for manipulation of meshes, UV painting, creation of 3d objects.  While some mesh manipulation is possible in poser, it is hopelessly primitive in comparison.

A simple render is very quick, and is not far off the final product.

Once you explore Carrara, I think you will find poser a one-trick pony in comparison.

The only thing I use poser for now is to open and manipulate objects which do not import natively so I can save versions for import.

Klebnor

Well, I'm not sure what is meant by "Vue will use quad core CPUs to their fullest", but Carrara maxes out all four of my quad cores when rendering.  You can see each core listed with a differenc color on screen as they work sequentially on individual segments of the render.

Klebnor

Quote - > Quote - Both Vue and Carrara render much faster than Poser.

have you any idea of the factor ? 10% 20% 30% ?

Again, depends on the scene. If there's a lot of raytracing involved, Vue is easily 10 times as fast as Poser. If there's also volumetric lighting in the scene, Vue can be more than 30 times as fast as Poser.
Another advantage of Vue (Infinite, 64 bit) is that it can handle far more complex scenes than Poser. I had no trouble rendering a scene containing over 30 hi-res Poser figures plus a complex environment in Vue.

Quad core to their fullest: 100% CPU load from the beginning of the render to the very end.  As I understand it, just like Carrara. And unlike Poser, which only uses multiple cores during certain render stages.

Carrara 7.1 is now LAA (LargeAddressAware) and can make use of more than 2GB of memory.

Here's a sample scene using multiple models which could choke other programs:

http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?p=1705778#1705778

There is also a script available somewhere that allows you to export Poser dynamic cloth animations as a sequence of morphs in a Poser pz3 file which Carrara can natively import and handle without having to use TransPoser and you get to then use the Carrara shader tree without problems from the Poser connection which you can run into with TransPoser. I've read about it but haven't used it yet. I think it's available as a download in a DAZ Studio tutorial. I think it allows the use of Poser 7 that way, too, if you don't use layers in animation, as you are just exporting morphs and poses and nothing newer technology wise, or at least that's how I read it .

Kevin

Quote - Carrara 7.1 is now LAA (LargeAddressAware) and can make use of more than 2GB of memory.

Here's a sample scene using multiple models which could choke other programs:

http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?p=1705778#1705778

There is also a script available somewhere that allows you to export Poser dynamic cloth animations as a sequence of morphs in a Poser pz3 file which Carrara can natively import and handle without having to use TransPoser and you get to then use the Carrara shader tree without problems from the Poser connection which you can run into with TransPoser. I've read about it but haven't used it yet. I think it's available as a download in a DAZ Studio tutorial. I think it allows the use of Poser 7 that way, too, if you don't use layers in animation, as you are just exporting morphs and poses and nothing newer technology wise, or at least that's how I read it .

Kevin

more than 2GB? That's news to me. Would it also use 8GB?

No, LAA only means that in 32 bit OS it will use 3GB (if you enable it in the boot settings) and in 64 bit OS it will use 4GB. But 4GB is the hard limit for all 32 bit apps no matter what. For more then 4GB, they have to be 64 bits.

Quote - No, LAA only means that in 32 bit OS it will use 3GB (if you enable it in the boot settings) and in 64 bit OS it will use 4GB. ..

How do I go about enabling this?

Here's a Microsoft knowledge base article about it:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms791558.aspx

As I understand it, these are the steps (haven't tried it myself yet):

To enable the 3GB switch on Windows Vista™ 

1. Right-click Command Prompt in the Accessories program group of the Start menu. Click Run as Administrator. 
2. At the command prompt, enter "bcdedit /set IncreaseUserVa 3072" 
3. Restart the computer.

To turn off the 3GB switch 

1. Right-click on Command Prompt in the Accessories program group of the Start menu. Click Run as Administrator. 
2. At the command prompt, enter "bcdedit /deletevalue IncreaseUserVa" 
3. Restart the computer.

Vue rocks, but that's just me ;)
I have Vue7 Infinite, and it blows the arse out of Poser.
I use Poser for people and items, import, tweak the materials heavily, save as Vue objects, add them to my library of Vue items and then use those for maximum effciency.
See my tutorial on poser import sin Vu e(in my signnature)

Try this for complexity, this is not a composited pic, all rendered in Vue:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1755936
:)

Quote - Here's a Microsoft knowledge base article about it:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms791558.aspx

As I understand it, these are the steps (haven't tried it myself yet):

To enable the 3GB switch on Windows Vista™ 

1. Right-click Command Prompt in the Accessories program group of the Start menu. Click Run as Administrator. 
2. At the command prompt, enter "bcdedit /set IncreaseUserVa 3072" 
3. Restart the computer.

To turn off the 3GB switch 

1. Right-click on Command Prompt in the Accessories program group of the Start menu. Click Run as Administrator. 
2. At the command prompt, enter "bcdedit /deletevalue IncreaseUserVa" 
3. Restart the computer.

Thank you.

Thanks for the info on C7.1 being LAA!