Hello all....

I'm considering getting a new computer so I was hoping for some advice as to what would make the best computer for Vue.....

No MAC

Mazak

Mazak

Quad core, 8 Gig RAM, 2 x HD's in Raid 1 array, Antec case with 3 fans.

if you look at the vue mark numbers over at cornucopia forums the best cpu (in terms of render speed) is the new core i7 although it might still be a bit overpriced as it only was introduced late last year and requires its own motherboard and memory. the next best and cheaper thing would be the above mentioned core 2 quad core.

vista 64bit with lots of ram will make sure you dont run into low memory problems with vue.

i dont know about graphics cards but i guess all the modern ones are ok.

if you really want to go crazy have a look at this link helmer.sfe.se/

hope this helps

Yeah, as folk say, and I have a "tutorial" on it on my site (links in sig).
However, currenlty, if you have the money, I'd go for i7 motherboard, an ASUS P6 (of which there's several versions).
i7 Intel CPU.
Antec also brought out newer cases, so maybe an Antec 2000 gamer case?
An 8600 or one of the better 9600 Nvidias would rock yer boat.

:)

if your going for an i7 id wait becuase the nephelam(sp?) processor is coming out in a couple of months, its 8 core 16 thread so i7 prices should theoretically drop.

I just upgraded to an i7 920 a few weeks ago.  Asus P6T Deluxe, 6GB DDR3 and Vista 64 bit. I'm very happy with the speed increase compared to my 32 bit XP and C2D E6600. As far as waiting, it might save you some money, but there will always be something newer and faster just around the corner.

Same here I have a intel quad-core, 8 gigs of RAM, 9600 GT card, 500 GB hard drives vista 64 and an Antec case with 550w PSU. Love it!! OF course I just built this PC and the i7 chips come out seems I can never win LOL!!!

yeah NEVER wait for "the next thing", if you do that, you'll never buy a new PC ;)
always watch out for the fact that the "latest" stuff is waaay over priced!
So, you wait a bit.
Currently i7 and DRR3 prices are falling from their initial high, and with their massive power boost over prior CPUs, it's worth it, IMHO :)

but if you wait for the next generation of chips (billed for the first quarter of 2009), then the i7 prices will fall a lot more (the nephalem is an intel chip)

Quote - No MAC

Mazak

Why ?

My two cents:

• Definitely, get a Windows, not a Mac. Macs are 3.2% of the world personal computers (5% in USA) and so, market wise, are not very atractive. This means that many softwares have Mac versions later than Windows versions (or none at all, like GeoControl, for example, which is a must for any Vue'er, IMO) or dedicate less capacity to troubleshooting (like we can see in e-on).

• You should get a 64 bit version (which is another reason, btw, to not get Mac - last time I heard, there were no 64 bit version for Vue in Mac). In principle, Vista Home Premium should be enough to handle an i7. Be aware the Home versions can only handle one physical CPU so if you're planning on getting two CPUs, you might want to go to a Business version.

• Silverblade is right saying that the latest trend is unproportionally expensive. But still I think you definitely should get an i7 CPU, with 8 cores equivalent. The question is when. If you have the money do it now, otherwise wait a few months and you'll save a lot of money.

• Get plenty of RAM (DDR3, of course, for an i7). Minimum 6GB. I have 8GB and only once I went above 6GB in one single scene. Vue gets very sluggish anyway, so there's no point (IMO) to get much more RAM because you won't be able to use it anyway. But if you can afford it, go ahead. RAM is cheap these days anyway.

• Get a case with plenty of ventilation. When Vue is rendering it uses CPU's intensively. If CPUs don't cool down sufficiently, their performance deteriorates. If you're rendering for several hours in a row (common...), then several good fans are important.

• Disk doesn't need to be high-end, IMO. Any normal SATA2 disk will do (a big one, or, better, 2 or 3, for backup). If you can afford RAID, like thefixer suggests, that's good because you have an automatic backup (if one disk fails, you have the other with a copy of everything). You need a good technician to set it up though.

• Graphic cards also don't need to be high-end. Vue only uses it for opengl preview. However, a good preview can help a lot so you shouldn't go to a low-end. I went to a medium-high model and I'm happy. Most people will say that Nvidia is better for Vue but I have good experience with both ATI and Nvidia.

• For my computer, I asked to remove sound card, TV card, card readers, and all other normal stuff that now comes with a new computer but that Vue doesn't use. Why pay for something that I won't use?

• After installing my computer, I removed all fancy Vista stuff. That only slows down the computer with no real benefit. I removed, or not installed, widgets, screensavers, Aero, etc, etc. I optimized it for maximum performance. There's a good tool, TuneUp Utilities, that can do most of it for you. If you can afford not connecting to the internet, even better (because then you don't need anti-virus, anti-spyware, firewall, which take up a lot of resources). You'll only need internet for a few seconds to activate your installation of Vue and then you can disconnect again.

Those are the things I can think for now. If I think of something else, I'll let you know.

Attached Link: Mac Pro

Yes, I know, but does Vue run on 64 bit in a Mac? Last time I read about it, e-on didn't have any 64 bit version of Vue for Mac.

I think you're right about no 64 bit vue version for the Mac, but it isnt due to an inferior platform.
In fact, I'm not sure if python scripts work properly (yet?) on the mac version, even though they are supposed to.

No Mac = Dumb statement! I have an 8 Core Mac Pro, cost 2500.00 USD. I added 12 GB memory from Newegg, and run Bootcamp with Mac OS and Vista Business 64-bit (needed to see 2 CPUs). This Mac Pro is THE most stable PC I've ever owned.

Present inventory: 1 8 core Mac Pro, 3 Quad Core PCs, 4 laptops (3 Core2), 1 Dual core, and 2 single core PCs -- all running Vista or XP Pro.  The Mac is the finest hardware I've ever owned.

Check out the new Mac Pro 8, core + 8 Hyperthreads (2 x 4 core Xeon “Nehalem” processors). For 3299.00 USD, it's the rapid-render monster. Try and build that configuration for those $$$.

What I was referring to when I said "no mac" was to the operating system. I was not referring explicitely to the hardware. I thought that was obvious from the rest of my statements but maybe not.

LCBoliou, in my opinion, dumb is buying a Mac and using Windows on it, like you do. It's common knowledge that Mac hardware is much more expensive than the corresponding PC hardware.

"...dumb is buying a Mac and using Windows on it, like you do. It's common knowledge that Mac hardware is much more expensive than the corresponding PC hardware."
Wrong again. Your "common knowledge" is just that -- yours.  before I purchased the Mac I checked:  a) building my own 8-core PC,  b)  A build from Dell, c)  A build from HP.  The Mac was ~ $1000 USD cheaper than either the equivalent Dell or HP, and even beat-out my Newegg DIY rig.

However, the Apple upgrade costs for memory and HD were/are ridiculous, but considering how easy it is to add HDs and memory, one should buy the basic Mac, then do the upgrades themselves.

Since the Mac hardware is pretty much the same as a Windows PC, what is so silly about buying a Mac Pro that can also run almost any OS?  The Mac OS side has much better movie making capability out of the box, as well as music, and a slew of other quality applications.  I can run the ZD Net software overclock utility on the Mac side (no voltage increases -- little chance of damage) and stably run the Mac at 3.2  GHz (vs. the native 2.8 GHz).

I don't start out with a "My 2 cents," then state; definitely by a Mac, or definitely buy a PC.  Hardware bigots are all the same ilk as any other  bigot -- as far as I'm concerned.  When the Macs ran on Motorola CPUs, it was pretty valid to demonstrate some passion in favor of Win-Doze PCs, but with the Macs on Intel -- it's a hollow argument. Read the Consumer Reports articles on computer owner satisfaction, reliability, and service response.

Quote - "before I purchased the Mac I checked:  a) building my own 8-core PC,  b)  A build from Dell, c)  A build from HP.  The Mac was ~ $1000 USD cheaper than either the equivalent Dell or HP, and even beat-out my Newegg DIY rig."

Of course, the MacBook Pro can be a good choice in terms of value for money depending with what you compare it. I just googled for "mac pro versus pc" and the very first hit in google's list delivered me this:
http://www.itproportal.com/portal/news/article/2009/3/3/apple-mac-pro-vs-windows-pc-4-way-comparison/1/
In this guy's comparison, he made a DIY PC more powerful than the Mac, and saving 1000 pounds in the process. So, it seems to me that your comparison was not the best...

Quote - "Since the Mac hardware is pretty much the same as a Windows PC, what is so silly about buying a Mac Pro that can also run almost any OS?"

Why is that an advantage? Most people just need one OS.

Quote "The Mac OS side has much better movie making capability out of the box, as well as music, and a slew of other quality applications."

What has that got to do with a "Vue computer", the original post?

Quote - "Read the Consumer Reports articles on computer owner satisfaction, reliability, and service response."

Haha! Is that why you run Windows on a Mac?... :-)

"Haha! Is that why you run Windows on a Mac?... :-)"

No, but the Mac hardware quality is top-notch, and it's a no brainer running Vista Business 64-bit. The point concerning Consumer Reports, is the build quality.

As I stated, I own 7 desktop PCs, and 4 Laptops.  All run Windows except for the Mac Pro, which runs both Mac OS as well as Vista.  The Mac represents the best of both worlds. Anyone who sees any significant difference between a Mac Pro, and a Windows work station make no sense. Except for the (primitive) BIOS, a Mac is essentially an...Intel PC. I actually think the Mac Pro 8-core is probably the best bang-for-the-buck of any Mac.

If Vue ran 64-bit on the Mac, I would likely not bother with Bootcamp at all.

Remember, I own 10 Windows based PCs. Maybe I'm simply computer agnostic? All I know, is the Mac Pro is the finest Windows PC I've ever owned. ; )

Quote - > Quote - No MAC

Mazak

Why ?

I've used a Mac both personally and professionally all my life and am typically the first to recommend the platform to anyone, but for Vue 7, the Mac is just not the way to go. Nothing against the Mac, more something against e-on and their Mac dev team as the application just plain runs better on a PC.

Of course that's Vue 7 and I'm not sure what version of you are running (or planning to), but if it's 6, it's actually quite stable and runs rather nicely on the Mac. I'm currently using Vue 6 Infinite for my scene builds and setups, but leveraging Vue 7 Infinite to render as the new render engine is  quite spectacular IMHO. Maybe since I'm only able to use a fraction of Vue 7, e-on can give me the rest of my money back ;)

BTW, my main machine is a rev. A Mac Pro 2x 3.0 GHz dual-core with 16GB of RAM, but I've also got a handful of other Macs and a yes, even a PC lurking around that does indeed run Vue 7 like a champ.

Best of luck on choosing your new machine, whatever that may be :)

Good topic, after some experience with rendering times in Vue regarding loads of reflections i am building up the perfect Vue computer. My current checklist:

• **ASUS KFN5-Q/SAS  (4 x Opteron 8000 Series Quad)
• 4 Opteron 8XXX Processors @ 2.5 GHz, not overclocked (at least for now)
• 16 GB DDR2 RAM
• Simple 1 TB SATA drive, maybe 2 for RAID 1
• Windows Server 2003 Enterprise edition 64 Bit

I would have loved to get a mac, but i would have ended up paying as much for an 8 core machine as i now pay for the 16 core machine, so it was not really an option.... Maybe if i find some new project for funding?**

The Opteron is an excellent processor, but a 2.5 GHs Intel Xeon (or any Intel Q -series) processor will be better at the specialized task of rendering.

How much is the cost of this Opteron based PC?

It will be around 2000 Euro, but only because i use pre-owned components, luckily i get warrant 12 months, so imho this is as good as new stuff. Also i already had the Windows serer 2003 enterprise license - was on a burned server case i bought on ebay for very cheap, so i basically got it for free. These are normally expensive i think.

Anyone tested Vue 7 on AMD Phenom II processors yet??

Honestly I have run Vue 6 Inifinite for a couple of years by now both on a Mac and a Quad-Core PC and didn't notice any particular difference in terms of performance or stability.
Vue crashes sometimes, that's quite common from what I read, but that is not platform-related.

I am running Vue 6 Infinite on a 8 Core 3.0ghz Mac Pro. I am thinking of upgrading to Vue 7 Infinite. I was curious if I would get any increase in performance by getting the 64 bit PC version of Vue and running it on Vista through Boot Camp?

Yes, the only reason I use Vista Business (make sure to get the Business version, as Home premium 64-bit can't see 2 CPUs), is because Vue has yet to code a 64-bit version of Vue for the Mac.  The Vista side of my Mac Pro renders about 25% faster compared to the Mac version. And, with 14 GB of RAM...well, 32-bit applications just won't use the memory.

If you would like an informed opinion, my background is in Computer Science and I would be happy to help. Check out my signature and you will see what I am using to design on, it's a Mac Pro all the way. I do NOT debate Windows/Mac as simply I come at it from a science background and use the platform that is the best out there and right now that is the Mac Pro for a number of reasons.

To state what was said above, the Mac Pro will also allow you to run NATIVE Windows OS (i.e. Vista, Windows 7) or even Linux on it since they have moved to an Intel platform some time back. Also, as the saying goes, you get what you pay for and that is certainly the case with Apple. The fit and finish of the Mac Pro are second to none. You do pay more for the hardware, but you can cut back if you know how when ordering. If you go that route, get the stock hard drive and memory and upgrade when you get it. I do recommend HIGHLY though Crucial memory, OWC is OK if you want even cheaper but I stay with Crucial.

Another reason you see somewhat limited hardware specs compared to building a Windows machine is because the Mac OS is designed to run like a fine tuned Ferrari with their hardware. It is certainly one of the most stable and reliable platforms I have used. Also, just look at all the professionals using Macs now and everyone I know that has any computer background has made the switch for many reasons. As I point out, you can run just about any OS you want as well so there really is no reason. Superior support with Apple Care is a plus too and highly recommended as well.

You want to load up on RAM, I would say at least 8-16GB. Yes, Vue does not YET take advantage of 64bit OS and all the extra RAM, however it may in Vue 8 when released. Also, a lot of other 3D software will such as C4D and Modo.

Best of luck and happy shopping.

Quote - I am running Vue 6 Infinite on a 8 Core 3.0ghz Mac Pro. I am thinking of upgrading to Vue 7 Infinite. I was curious if I would get any increase in performance by getting the 64 bit PC version of Vue and running it on Vista through Boot Camp?

Yes, you will, but I don't use Boot Camp because I find it a hassle to have to boot back and forth between the OS and save the files to my external hard drive for access. I found that for me personally, I saved time in rendering, but lost time having to work with the files and switching which was a wash in the end.

I too would LOVE for a 64bit version of Vue for the Mac and hope others will write in requesting it in their next major version of Vue 8.

Also, if you REALLY want to speed things up, you may want to look into doing a dedicated RenderCow, RenderNode, or whatever the 3D company calls it for their software. It basically takes a machine, say a Mac Pro and turns it into a full time render machine off loading the work so you can continue designing. It's only limited by the money you have as you can do several dedicated "farms" if you wanted to and speed was that important for your work flow.

And all the guy asked what was the best computer for Vue.   LOL  :)  What ever it is, get the max ram you can for that motherboard/processor/operating system.  I'm still running XP and although Vue7i gets cranky it works because I bought max ram.   (won't upgrade to Vista, am waiting until the new one comes out).   I don't do MAC's simply because of Apple's support system (or lack thereof,I still own an Apple 2GS "Wozniak" signature system that Apple simply dropped right after I bought it, no support, nothing, "too bad, buy a Mac now from us").   But the truth is MACs and PCs both work.   If you wait until the crest of the "new" processors and go down the backside of the curve a couple of months(ie: the prices fall fairly fast)  you can get a machine that will do what you want for several years to come and it won't cost an arm and a leg.

 An interesting line of recommendations......

For my part, I have no wish to fan the flames of a Mac vs PC debate............

But what has been, & is, important for me is that the hardware I purchase works as effortlessly as possible: I do not have the knowledge, skills, or inclination to build a machine from component parts with the headache of compatibility, inter-operability, drivers, etc., not to mention issues of warranty et al. Thus, currently, Macs offer the best solution for me - with the added reassurance that the OS & hardware are engineered to work together optimally. PCs of a similar specification to their corresponding Macs are no longer ( to my understanding) significantly, if at all, cheaper (excluding self-build for the reasons cited above).

As we know & lament, e-on do not yet provide a 64bit version of Vue for the Mac: Thus, if you wish to benefit from significant amounts of RAM the options would appear to be...

1. Choose a PC running a 64bit Microsoft OS
2. Choose a Mac & run Vue on an MS OS via Bootcamp (with the hassle of saving to an external drive for file exchange between OSs)
   3) Choose a Mac & run Vue on an MS OS via Fusion or Parallels allowing both OSs to run side by side with seamless transfer of files (my undertanding from the promotional literature).
3. Choose a Mac & see if the soon to be released 'Snow Leopard' version of Mac OSX provides the promised framework for easy programming in multi-threaded 64bit (& e-on take advantage of it) !

Spoilt for choice really!   ☺

 Or,............wait until Snow Leopard is released,.......and then make a purchase decision.

Quote -  An interesting line of recommendations......

For my part, I have no wish to fan the flames of a Mac vs PC debate............

But what has been, & is, important for me is that the hardware I purchase works as effortlessly as possible: I do not have the knowledge, skills, or inclination to build a machine from component parts with the headache of compatibility, inter-operability, drivers, etc., not to mention issues of warranty et al. Thus, currently, Macs offer the best solution for me - with the added reassurance that the OS & hardware are engineered to work together optimally. PCs of a similar specification to their corresponding Macs are no longer ( to my understanding) significantly, if at all, cheaper (excluding self-build for the reasons cited above).

As we know & lament, e-on do not yet provide a 64bit version of Vue for the Mac: Thus, if you wish to benefit from significant amounts of RAM the options would appear to be...

1. Choose a PC running a 64bit Microsoft OS
2. Choose a Mac & run Vue on an MS OS via Bootcamp (with the hassle of saving to an external drive for file exchange between OSs)
   3) Choose a Mac & run Vue on an MS OS via Fusion or Parallels allowing both OSs to run side by side with seamless transfer of files (my undertanding from the promotional literature).
3. Choose a Mac & see if the soon to be released 'Snow Leopard' version of Mac OSX provides the promised framework for easy programming in multi-threaded 64bit (& e-on take advantage of it) !

Spoilt for choice really!   ☺

As I said, you can check my profile and see I am a professional and don't care what someone decides to use because it's their money. But speaking from a purely Computer Science education background, the Mac Pro is truly the way to go. Apple has a great reputation for their "Apple Care" service and as I said before, their OS has a better kernal than Windows. Also, you can do just like you stated and use Boot Camp to install Windows, Linux or whatever if you want.

In terms of Vue and 64bit on the Mac, I am hoping Vue 8 will address that. However, it's more of having the programming talent in place and the resources to do it because there is no reason it can't be done right now to a certain degree. After all, Modo and C4D both take advantage of the hardware better. It just amounts to getting a team in place to code it, but you are right in that it MAY be somewhat better to do once 10.6 Snow Leopard is out and do it all then.

One word of advice though, do NOT even attempt to do anything major inside an emulator like VMWare Fusion under Windows. The performance hit is VERY large and anything like 3D applications really must be run native using Boot Camp.

Happy shopping and rendering.

 Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. Much appreciated.

P

Quote - Anyone tested Vue 7 on AMD Phenom II processors yet??

Just ordered a Phenom II X3 710 from Newegg. The price was just too good to pass up...$147.00 Canadian....

Anyone try Vue on Linux via Wine?

What is the preferred os (XP, Vista, 32 bit, 64 bit) for a Vue workstation....???

For me, Vista Ultimate  64 bit (Ultimate comes with both 32 and 64 bit installers iirc) :)
Despite folk's moaning, Vista works brilliantly for most people.

Quote -

As I said, you can check my profile and see I am a professional and don't care what someone decides to use because it's their money. But speaking from a purely Computer Science education background, the Mac Pro is truly the way to go.

You keep saying that, and yet you still sound like little more than an apple fanboy.

As for mac v pc, I'd love a mac, except a good one costs a lot more than building a good pc.  If the originator of this thread is into building PCs, then a quad core chip with a new motherboard and ram coupled with old hard drives, power supply, dvd, video card, and tower, and you're golden for less than $800.  You know, that or buy an equivalent mac for three times the price.  Oh, but it has a better kernal!  Of course, since you'll likely be running 64 bit Vue in 64 bit Windows, that won't matter not a whit.

Quote - > Quote -

As I said, you can check my profile and see I am a professional and don't care what someone decides to use because it's their money. But speaking from a purely Computer Science education background, the Mac Pro is truly the way to go.

You keep saying that, and yet you still sound like little more than an apple fanboy.

Sorry, but I don't get into debates like this as I have pointed out my credentials which speak for themself. They are based on known facts and have nothing to do with personal feelings.

Quote - For me, Vista Ultimate  64 bit (Ultimate comes with both 32 and 64 bit installers iirc) :)
Despite folk's moaning, Vista works brilliantly for most people.

I must disagree with you in some regard there.

As most tech guys know that have followed this disaster, known as Vista, from the start there were deep problems with this OS version. It has nothing to do with personal choice, but rather the computer code behind it. The Windows OS Kernal has been inferior for some time and Vista didn't help at all. It has been a huge nightmare for Microsoft and is something they wish never came out. Some of that due to mishandling of the product, but mostly due to sloppy code and how the various OS component APIs and such work.

Does Vista 64 bit work OK for most users now? That depends greatly on what you call fixed. I certainly would never say it works "brillantly" though. Yes, they have cleaned up the code some and finally thanks to their service packs it is at least a usable OS for the time being. But it's like trying to fix a car that was considered totaled, you can make it function but there are still issues lurking despite appearance.

This is why Windows 7 is what Microsoft is hanging their collective butts on because they know it can't be the failure Vista was if they want to save their OS from becoming a 3rd rate platform. If you notice one thing, which is what others like Maximum PC, Toms Hardware, TWIT podcast, Tekzilla, etc. have stated many times now and that is Windows 7 is stripped down. Many of the features and components that caused headaches under Vista are not yet implemented in Windows 7. Yes, it is still in beta right now, I'm using the most recent build, but industry insiders are saying it most likely will not ship with most or at least several of them that were deemed problems before. They want Windows 7 to be STABLE and to get that they are stripping it down and slowing adding things to it over long periods of time. This is a smart move for MS as that is the only way to start over and make a better foundation. However, as most have observed, just how stable and useful Windows 7 will be once those components and features start being added is anyones guess. It will have to be done over time even when Windows 7 ships to avoid the Vista issues of the past.

Hope that helps some.

Quote - What is the preferred os (XP, Vista, 32 bit, 64 bit) for a Vue workstation....???

If you are going the Windows route, then the obvious choice is 64 bit Vista for the time being. You want to stay as much as possible in a 64 bit OS and use applications that will take advantage of it along with LOTS of memory. Certainly a Vue workstation would be applicable here. Make sure to upgrade to Windows 7 when it comes out.

Happy rendering.

Quote - "Sorry, but I don't get into debates like this as I have pointed out my credentials which speak for themself. They are based on known facts and have nothing to do with personal feelings."

You speak as if your knowledge is so great that you know the ultimate truth. You know for sure what countless experts have discussed before and have not agreed on. You are the ultimate expert. Ok.

Quote - "... as I said before, their OS has a better kernal than Windows"
 
Admitting this is true (whatever "better" means in this context...), how does that benefit the normal user? The user doesn't see it. The user sees the "graphical user interface", or GUI. And 96.8% of all personal computers in the world are Windows (95% in USA). So, why even start to get used to a new GUI that so few people in the world use? During the course of a normal life, it's much more probable to accidentaly run into a PC than a Mac (at a future job, at a friend's house, etc). I don't see how having a better kernel (assuming it's true) justifies any choice, when confronted with the power of numbers. Like it or not, Windows is a "de facto" standard, whereas Mac is a deviation, a niche. We all know the disadvantages of going for non-standards.
 
Does having a better kernel could translate into real benefits? For example, speed or security. Regarding speed, there are several benchmarks available that state otherwise. On the same hardware, Vista runs faster than OS X. Regarding security, with the proper care (regular update, antivirus and firewall) there's no advantage to OS X. I had PC's all my life and never had any security problem.
 
 
Quote - "In terms of Vue and 64bit on the Mac, I am hoping Vue 8 will address that."
 
Hope... Is that really a purchase criteria? :-)
 
 
Quote - "However, it's more of having the programming talent in place and the resources to do it because there is no reason it can't be done right now to a certain degree."
 
So, e-on doesn't have programming talent and/or resources?... :-) Somehow, I find that hard to believe. But even if it were true, who could blame them for not investing as much effort for 3.2% of the market as for 96.8%? It's just pure business logic.
Same logic is used by countless other software houses around the world. Take GeoControl, for example. A must-have companion for a serious Vue'er, that doesn't have a Mac version.
So, your sentence is in fact a strong argument against Macs...
 
 
Anyway, regardlessly of which OS or hardware is "better" in the general sense, the thread title mentions "perfect Vue computer". So, general sense is not relevant. Focus is Vue.
Let's see:

• Not taking hope as a criteria, can Vue run on 64 bits in OS X? No. Can it run on 64 bits in Windows? Yes. Is this important for Vue? Yes! Comfortable memory space is fundamental for Vue.
• Does Vista have problems? Yes. Does Vue work great on Vista? Yes, as many people will testify (me included). So, does it matter if Vista has problems? No.
• Is OS X "better" than Windows? I don't know. Does it matter? No, because user can't see it, particularly if he wants to run Vue in 64 bits.
• Does OS X have more authoring and media tools? Yes. Does it matter for Vue? No.
• Is a Mac more elegant than a PC? Maybe. Is that relevant for Vue? No!
• Is a Mac more expensive than an equivalent PC? Yes!! I just went to Apple store and saw the base price for an 8 core was $3299 (with only 6GB). That's just crazy. You could buy a small PC render farm for that price.
• Can a Mac run Windows? Yes. But if we run Windows+Vue on a Mac we actually ended up buying two operating systems: OS X (that we never use) and Windows. Does this sound like good business logic? No.
   

Quote - Quote - "Sorry, but I don't get into debates like this as I have pointed out my credentials which speak for themself. They are based on known facts and have nothing to do with personal feelings."

You speak as if your knowledge is so great that you know the ultimate truth. You know for sure what countless experts have discussed before and have not agreed on. You are the ultimate expert. Ok.

Quote - "... as I said before, their OS has a better kernal than Windows"
 
Admitting this is true (whatever "better" means in this context...), how does that benefit the normal user? The user doesn't see it. The user sees the "graphical user interface", or GUI. And 96.8% of all personal computers in the world are Windows (95% in USA). So, why even start to get used to a new GUI that so few people in the world use? During the course of a normal life, it's much more probable to accidentaly run into a PC than a Mac (at a future job, at a friend's house, etc). I don't see how having a better kernel (assuming it's true) justifies any choice, when confronted with the power of numbers. Like it or not, Windows is a "de facto" standard, whereas Mac is a deviation, a niche. We all know the disadvantages of going for non-standards.
 
Does having a better kernel could translate into real benefits? For example, speed or security. Regarding speed, there are several benchmarks available that state otherwise. On the same hardware, Vista runs faster than OS X. Regarding security, with the proper care (regular update, antivirus and firewall) there's no advantage to OS X. I had PC's all my life and never had any security problem.
 
 
Quote - "In terms of Vue and 64bit on the Mac, I am hoping Vue 8 will address that."
 
Hope... Is that really a purchase criteria? :-)
 
 
Quote - "However, it's more of having the programming talent in place and the resources to do it because there is no reason it can't be done right now to a certain degree."
 
So, e-on doesn't have programming talent and/or resources?... :-) Somehow, I find that hard to believe. But even if it were true, who could blame them for not investing as much effort for 3.2% of the market as for 96.8%? It's just pure business logic.
Same logic is used by countless other software houses around the world. Take GeoControl, for example. A must-have companion for a serious Vue'er, that doesn't have a Mac version.
So, your sentence is in fact a strong argument against Macs...
 
 
Anyway, regardlessly of which OS or hardware is "better" in the general sense, the thread title mentions "perfect Vue computer". So, general sense is not relevant. Focus is Vue.
Let's see:

• Not taking hope as a criteria, can Vue run on 64 bits in OS X? No. Can it run on 64 bits in Windows? Yes. Is this important for Vue? Yes! Comfortable memory space is fundamental for Vue.
• Does Vista have problems? Yes. Does Vue work great on Vista? Yes, as many people will testify (me included). So, does it matter if Vista has problems? No.
• Is OS X "better" than Windows? I don't know. Does it matter? No, because user can't see it, particularly if he wants to run Vue in 64 bits.
• Does OS X have more authoring and media tools? Yes. Does it matter for Vue? No.
• Is a Mac more elegant than a PC? Maybe. Is that relevant for Vue? No!
• Is a Mac more expensive than an equivalent PC? Yes!! I just went to Apple store and saw the base price for an 8 core was $3299 (with only 6GB). That's just crazy. You could buy a small PC render farm for that price.
• Can a Mac run Windows? Yes. But if we run Windows+Vue on a Mac we actually ended up buying two operating systems: OS X (that we never use) and Windows. Does this sound like good business logic? No.
   

Sorry, but I won't debate this as obviously you have no intent on reading actual facts from other media sources than myself in the points I have made.

FACT: Mac users now take up 12% market share, NOT 3.2% as you quoted. Source, Mac World Magazine, Macbreak Weekly and others.

"So, e-on doesn't have programming talent and/or resources?... :-) Somehow, I find that hard to believe. But even if it were true, who could blame them for not investing as much effort for 3.2% of the market as for 96.8%? It's just pure business logic.
Same logic is used by countless other software houses around the world. Take GeoControl, for example. A must-have companion for a serious Vue'er, that doesn't have a Mac version.
So, your sentence is in fact a strong argument against Macs..."

WRONG: FACT - In order to understand this you must know the way development teams are implemented and work. Most companies, rather e-on or others rarely maintain a full time technical team of program coders. Typically, this means that when a company wants to put out another release and has looked at the market they hire additional programmers to augment at that time. The reason e-on and others would and are investing more now than ever in the Mac platform is because they and other developers know that more serious users are moving to a Mac. The figure you quoted about PC users are largely from the average Joe and NOT the high-end users like myself that make up those statistics.

"Is a Mac more expensive than an equivalent PC? Yes!! I just went to Apple store and saw the base price for an 8 core was $3299 (with only 6GB). That's just crazy. You could buy a small PC render farm for that price."

As mentioned before, you pay for what you get. The Mac can run nearly any OS, NOT a PC. Also, the service with Apple Care is much better and American based support. I don't know of any "render farm" that could be done on that scale. You would need to network at least 2 of those along with a good 16GB of RAM each to produce a farm with good speed. So about $10K should do the job. Note, Leo Leporte is running a 2009 Mac Pro that is going to just sit in his closet for a video server type of system. Price was just north of $5K. Also, that price you quoted on the PC was in fact cheaper as has always been the case with Apple products in comparison. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Chevy.

It seems to me like I have hit a nerve that is not a-typical of forums on the net when someone tries to explain facts, that have even been reported by many technical news media outlets. As I said before, use what you want, makes no difference to any of us here. I am simply stating known scientific facts that were also backed up by others. All this talk has no regard to personal choice and use as now many times and was ignored, use what you like, it's YOUR MONEY.

Best of luck and happy rendering.

Quote - > Quote - Quote - "Sorry, but I don't get into debates like this as I have pointed out my credentials which speak for themself. They are based on known facts and have nothing to do with personal feelings."

You speak as if your knowledge is so great that you know the ultimate truth. You know for sure what countless experts have discussed before and have not agreed on. You are the ultimate expert. Ok.

Quote - "... as I said before, their OS has a better kernal than Windows"
 
Admitting this is true (whatever "better" means in this context...), how does that benefit the normal user? The user doesn't see it. The user sees the "graphical user interface", or GUI. And 96.8% of all personal computers in the world are Windows (95% in USA). So, why even start to get used to a new GUI that so few people in the world use? During the course of a normal life, it's much more probable to accidentaly run into a PC than a Mac (at a future job, at a friend's house, etc). I don't see how having a better kernel (assuming it's true) justifies any choice, when confronted with the power of numbers. Like it or not, Windows is a "de facto" standard, whereas Mac is a deviation, a niche. We all know the disadvantages of going for non-standards.
 
Does having a better kernel could translate into real benefits? For example, speed or security. Regarding speed, there are several benchmarks available that state otherwise. On the same hardware, Vista runs faster than OS X. Regarding security, with the proper care (regular update, antivirus and firewall) there's no advantage to OS X. I had PC's all my life and never had any security problem.
 
 
Quote - "In terms of Vue and 64bit on the Mac, I am hoping Vue 8 will address that."
 
Hope... Is that really a purchase criteria? :-)
 
 
Quote - "However, it's more of having the programming talent in place and the resources to do it because there is no reason it can't be done right now to a certain degree."
 
So, e-on doesn't have programming talent and/or resources?... :-) Somehow, I find that hard to believe. But even if it were true, who could blame them for not investing as much effort for 3.2% of the market as for 96.8%? It's just pure business logic.
Same logic is used by countless other software houses around the world. Take GeoControl, for example. A must-have companion for a serious Vue'er, that doesn't have a Mac version.
So, your sentence is in fact a strong argument against Macs...
 
 
Anyway, regardlessly of which OS or hardware is "better" in the general sense, the thread title mentions "perfect Vue computer". So, general sense is not relevant. Focus is Vue.
Let's see:

• Not taking hope as a criteria, can Vue run on 64 bits in OS X? No. Can it run on 64 bits in Windows? Yes. Is this important for Vue? Yes! Comfortable memory space is fundamental for Vue.
• Does Vista have problems? Yes. Does Vue work great on Vista? Yes, as many people will testify (me included). So, does it matter if Vista has problems? No.
• Is OS X "better" than Windows? I don't know. Does it matter? No, because user can't see it, particularly if he wants to run Vue in 64 bits.
• Does OS X have more authoring and media tools? Yes. Does it matter for Vue? No.
• Is a Mac more elegant than a PC? Maybe. Is that relevant for Vue? No!
• Is a Mac more expensive than an equivalent PC? Yes!! I just went to Apple store and saw the base price for an 8 core was $3299 (with only 6GB). That's just crazy. You could buy a small PC render farm for that price.
• Can a Mac run Windows? Yes. But if we run Windows+Vue on a Mac we actually ended up buying two operating systems: OS X (that we never use) and Windows. Does this sound like good business logic? No.
   

Sorry, but I won't debate this as obviously you have no intent on reading actual facts from other media sources than myself in the points I have made.

FACT: Mac users now take up 12% market share, NOT 3.2% as you quoted. Source, Mac World Magazine, Macbreak Weekly and others.

"So, e-on doesn't have programming talent and/or resources?... :-) Somehow, I find that hard to believe. But even if it were true, who could blame them for not investing as much effort for 3.2% of the market as for 96.8%? It's just pure business logic.
Same logic is used by countless other software houses around the world. Take GeoControl, for example. A must-have companion for a serious Vue'er, that doesn't have a Mac version.
So, your sentence is in fact a strong argument against Macs..."

WRONG: FACT - In order to understand this you must know the way development teams are implemented and work. Most companies, rather e-on or others rarely maintain a full time technical team of program coders. Typically, this means that when a company wants to put out another release and has looked at the market they hire additional programmers to augment at that time. The reason e-on and others would and are investing more now than ever in the Mac platform is because they and other developers know that more serious users are moving to a Mac. The figure you quoted about PC users are largely from the average Joe and NOT the high-end users like myself that make up those statistics.

"Is a Mac more expensive than an equivalent PC? Yes!! I just went to Apple store and saw the base price for an 8 core was $3299 (with only 6GB). That's just crazy. You could buy a small PC render farm for that price."

As mentioned before, you pay for what you get. The Mac can run nearly any OS, NOT a PC. Also, the service with Apple Care is much better and American based support. I don't know of any "render farm" that could be done on that scale. You would need to network at least 2 of those along with a good 16GB of RAM each to produce a farm with good speed. So about $10K should do the job. Note, Leo Leporte is running a 2009 Mac Pro that is going to just sit in his closet for a video server type of system. Price was just north of $5K. Also, that price you quoted on the PC was in fact cheaper as has always been the case with Apple products in comparison. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Chevy.

It seems to me like I have hit a nerve that is not a-typical of forums on the net when someone tries to explain facts, that have even been reported by many technical news media outlets, yet conflicts with their personal bias. As I said before, use what you want, makes no difference to any of us here. I am simply stating known scientific facts that were also backed up by others. All this talk has no regard to personal choice and use as mentioned now many times and was ignored, use what you like, it's YOUR MONEY.

Best of luck and happy rendering.

Quote - "FACT: Mac users now take up 12% market share, NOT 3.2% as you quoted. Source, Mac World Magazine, Macbreak Weekly and others."

So, you go to Mac magazines to know the Mac market share... ;-)
I rest my case now without even needing to say anything...

Quote - "Sorry, but I won't debate this as obviously you have no intent on reading actual facts from other media sources than myself in the points I have made."

Again, what facts have you stated that could help the decision to purchase a Vue computer?

Quote - "In order to understand this you must know the way development teams are implemented and work."

:-)  Actually, I'm the leader of an IT department which includes a development team. I think I know how a development team works. And I also know that outsourcing costs money. And I know that benefits must outweigh the costs for every business decision. So, my conclusion stands perfectly valid.

Quote - "The figure you quoted about PC users are largely from the average Joe and NOT the high-end users like myself that make up those statistics."

So what? My point was about "de facto" standards. "De facto" standards are not created by "high-end users" (whatever that means) but rather by the consumers (to which you call "average Joe").

Quote - "The Mac can run nearly any OS, NOT a PC."

That is obviously untrue. You should check your facts. You probably mean that a PC can't run OS X. That's hardly a disadvantage... :-)
But even if you were right and a Mac can run nearly any OS and a PC can't, how does that benefit the average consumer? Better still, how does that benefit a Vue user?

About prices, I won't even argue more. Just go to a shop and compare prices.
Your comparison Ferrari - Chevy... The comparison is obviously incorrect because a PC can be as high-end as you choose it to be.
But if it were correct, I can honestly tell you that I'd prefer a Chevy than a Ferrari for my daily travels. :-) A Ferrari could be good to show-off and have some fun but, in the end of the day, it's going from point A to point B with reasonable prices that really matters. Gaining a few seconds in my 10km from home to work at the expense of a much higher invoice makes no business sense whatsoever. So, thanks for the comparison, it helped my case! :-)

Quote - "It seems to me like I have hit a nerve that is not a-typical of forums on the net when someone tries to explain facts, that have even been reported by many technical news media outlets."

Again, what facts have you brought that could help the decision of a Vue user who wants to buy a computer?

Quote - "All this talk has no regard to personal choice and use as now many times and was ignored, use what you like, it's YOUR MONEY."

You keep saying that, which reminds me of some business consultants I met. :-)
They give the advise and then step back. If the customer followed the advise and it proved to be right, they're fine. If the advise proved to be wrong, they say "I told you that it was your decision".
It's nice to always be on the safe side... :-)

Quote - Quote - "FACT: Mac users now take up 12% market share, NOT 3.2% as you quoted. Source, Mac World Magazine, Macbreak Weekly and others."

So, you go to Mac magazines to know the Mac market share... ;-)
I rest my case now without even needing to say anything...

Quote - "Sorry, but I won't debate this as obviously you have no intent on reading actual facts from other media sources than myself in the points I have made."

Again, what facts have you stated that could help the decision to purchase a Vue computer?

Quote - "In order to understand this you must know the way development teams are implemented and work."

:-)  Actually, I'm the leader of an IT department which includes a development team. I think I know how a development team works. And I also know that outsourcing costs money. And I know that benefits must outweigh the costs for every business decision. So, my conclusion stands perfectly valid.

Quote - "The figure you quoted about PC users are largely from the average Joe and NOT the high-end users like myself that make up those statistics."

So what? My point was about "de facto" standards. "De facto" standards are not created by "high-end users" (whatever that means) but rather by the consumers (to which you call "average Joe").

Quote - "The Mac can run nearly any OS, NOT a PC."

That is obviously untrue. You should check your facts. You probably mean that a PC can't run OS X. That's hardly a disadvantage... :-)
But even if you were right and a Mac can run nearly any OS and a PC can't, how does that benefit the average consumer? Better still, how does that benefit a Vue user?

About prices, I won't even argue more. Just go to a shop and compare prices.
Your comparison Ferrari - Chevy... The comparison is obviously incorrect because a PC can be as high-end as you choose it to be.
But if it were correct, I can honestly tell you that I'd prefer a Chevy than a Ferrari for my daily travels. :-) A Ferrari could be good to show-off and have some fun but, in the end of the day, it's going from point A to point B with reasonable prices that really matters. Gaining a few seconds in my 10km from home to work at the expense of a much higher invoice makes no business sense whatsoever. So, thanks for the comparison, it helped my case! :-)

Quote - "It seems to me like I have hit a nerve that is not a-typical of forums on the net when someone tries to explain facts, that have even been reported by many technical news media outlets."

Again, what facts have you brought that could help the decision of a Vue user who wants to buy a computer?

Quote - "All this talk has no regard to personal choice and use as now many times and was ignored, use what you like, it's YOUR MONEY."

You keep saying that, which reminds me of some business consultants I met. :-)
They give the advise and then step back. If the customer followed the advise and it proved to be right, they're fine. If the advise proved to be wrong, they say "I told you that it was your decision".
It's nice to always be on the safe side... :-)

"You speak as if your knowledge is so great that you know the ultimate truth. You know for sure what countless experts have discussed before and have not agreed on. You are the ultimate expert. Ok."

From this moment on I could not take you seriously or put validity behind your comments. It is obvious you have a bias here and can't support your statements with facts. At no time did I ever say I was an "ultimate expert", those are your words that you are using to validate a slanted view of bias to mine and making conjecture.

You also are clearly making up your own facts to suite your personal views as you refuse to believe in them even when valid news media sources are quoted. Again, this validates all I stated because you choose your own opinion over a fully reputable source.

I find it interesting that only a couple of people want to draw me into some sort of flame type wars as you obviously want to insight a personal attack here. However, I will not be party to any such thing and have spent more than enough time on this trying to help. Most have been very kind and responded quite favorably. To them I say thank you and am glad to know most users are professionals in our community.

Signing off this thread, best wishes to all.

It is interesting that you invoke a sentence I wrote two posts ago to stop replying, although you did reply to the post I wrote after writing that sentence. ;-)

Quote - "From this moment on I could not take you seriously or put validity behind your comments."

I didn't take you seriously since the first moment because you felt the need to pull your ranks on the rest of us. You validated your statements by saying you're a computer scientist, as if that validates anything.

Quote - "It is obvious you have a bias here and can't support your statements with facts."

I saw no facts coming from your side, apart from statistics coming from Mac magazines... :-)

Quote - "you choose your own opinion over a fully reputable source. "

A fully reputable source? The only one you mentioned was a Mac magazine with market share. You mentioned no other source.

Quote - "as you obviously want to insight a personal attack here."

No, I don't.

Quote - "Signing off this thread, best wishes to all."

Thanks, best wishes to you too. :-)

Well, I do think education has something to do with knowledge. I have no degree, but work at the largest nuclear power station in the U.S. with instrumentation and controls. My work often involves PLCs (ladder logic programming, as well as computer control systems). I also worked in aerospace, materials research, and worked with analytical instrumentation. I worked with computers since the DEC PDP-11 LSI series, Modcomp, tape readers, drum memory, etc..

So do I get lambasted because I've been a science geek most of my life?

The integrated Macs are not so hot for the $$, but the Mac Pro is entirely different. It's a rendering monster, and is built with an aluminum chassis that is about twice as thick as the Chinese stuff sold all over the web. The keyboard is solid aluminum, but I don't like the feel of the keys. The mouse is...a stupid, but "cool" design. Overall, the computer is the best built PC box I've ever owned. And, the Mac OS is much nicer, albiet, lacking a 64-bit version of Vue. Using Bootcamp to run a Vue sesion is no big deal for me.

You two debating over Mac vs PC are ruining what could be potentially a very interesting and useful thread....

Since a Mac is a Mac and a PC can vary in it's hardware configuration from computer to computer as there is no single PC company or builder as there is in the Mac world...let's just drop Macs from this thread altogether... And let's get back to providing the information the original poster asked for...

Cheers

Ken