Quote - Well, I'm sorry. I have no sympathy anymore, not after that. If you go to any other software manufacturer and ask for a replacement DVD in the format you are ENTITLED to from your purchase, they don't give you this kind of run around. (I've had DVDs and CDs replaced before, and never had this problem. They look at the license and registration, and will send it to you.
Not MS.
Buyer beware.

Did you even Try hanging up to get a more knowledgeable help desk person? I know it's been ten year since this happened but I had all my CD stolen from my car for QuickBasic 4, and a few other programming language CD's back when I was in school. All I had to do was call and give them my serial number and they replaced all the CD's (Except QuickBasic 4 which they were no longer supporting so they sent me QuickBasic 5 instead).

Sometime's it's all in who you're talking to. Frankly having worked in HelpDesk phone support I'm well aware that not all HelpDesk phone people are created equal. When I get a dunce I hang up and call back later when hopefully a new shift has come on and try to get someone smarter.

[**
**

It's not the pirates that are your problem at all, you should start looking at other reasons. The market you operate on isn't the one that's being destroyed by pirates. It's being destroyed by way to many merchants focussing on the same things. I can only spent my money once. With the huge selection of for example medieval style buildings I will buy the best possible for the best price. I can get much better quality then your what your store offers for paying a little more. So I'll go for the better stuff, if not the best. It's as simple as that. Nothing to do with pirates it's all in demand and supply. The supply is overcrowding the demand in the poser market. Unless you create something outstanding or something innovative & original you cannot really make the sales you wish to make.

QFT

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -

I'ms sorry but by that logic they should have outlawed Pawnbrokering years ago! And yet Pawnshops still exist all across the USA  and continue to sell "HOT" merchandise! On top of that, what with all the high prices on metal these days, Metal buyers in my city have all been forced to record all of their buyers because with all the forclosures, vacant homes are being stripped of their copper wire and tubing across the city. We can't jail the metal merchants for providing an outlet to theives to sell stolen metal!

I know it's hard to catch it, but I thought people and merchants do get in trouble when they get caught selling stolen goods.

They only get into trouble if they don't have records of Who they bought from. This same rule should apply to peer sharing sites. You don't see Pawn Broker's being hauled off in droves for selling stolen merchandise because they keep records of who they buy what from and the cops then go get the theives and NOT the merchants. The same should apply to internet file sharing sites. They should be forced to keep records of who is sharing what. Plain and Simple.

Well, torrent sites for example inherentlly have records, published online, because they track whom is seeding what, and spreading that information around. It's warehouse of information where you can get various illegal copies of software, music, movies etc... and an occasional legal piece. I would think that would make them an accessory in distribution of stolen goods.

Quote -
Do you really think if such a person has an item in his/her cart, he/she will still buy it once they see it at a warez site?

I was wondering about that myself.  When my last very popular item got torrented, I was watching my sales. I didn't see any downward trend in it's sales around the day it got pirated or within that week.  I expected to see at least a tiny drop off in sales, maybe 10-15% when it was pirated, but I didn't.

Piracy is as old as the software industry.
The FBI is not gonna break down your door and confiscate your computer because you stole a pair of fairy wings.
I'm not advocating anything but any characterization of this discussion as anything but philosophical is a serious disconnect from reality.

These convictions are legally insignificant outside of Sweden.
The OP is guilty of fear mongering.

Quote - ...When my last very popular item got torrented, I was watching my sales. I didn't see any downward trend in it's sales around the day it got pirated or within that week.  I expected to see at least a tiny drop off in sales, maybe 10-15% when it was pirated, but I didn't.

It's great to hear that your sales weren't affected! :D

I think the more products a merchant has in a store, the more susceptible he/she may be to the kind of thing I perviously mentioned; because the comments I mentioned most often pertained to products by creators who have been well-known for years, (many of which remain year after year in 'top' merchant lists).

I guess it's like that with anything: the more items one has in any area (music albums, gallery pics, etc,) the more often it will draw the eye of both the good and the bad. 

.

Quote - Piracy is as old as the software industry.
The FBI is not gonna break down your door and confiscate your computer because you stole a pair of fairy wings...

LOL!! Sorry for laughing, but I got a real funny visual reading that. :p

Quote - Piracy is as old as the software industry.
The FBI is not gonna break down your door and confiscate your computer because you stole a pair of fairy wings.
I'm not advocating anything but any characterization of this discussion as anything but philosophical is a serious disconnect from reality.

These convictions are legally insignificant outside of Sweden.
The OP is guilty of fear mongering.

That's a brilliant post, and one of the few here on this subject which makes sense!

Except I disagree on one point: Piracy goes back long before software - they used to just call it theft. ;-)

And while there may be those who advocate the gub'ment stepping in and intruding on people to keep them honest, I still say it's a can of worms nobody really wants to open, no matter how "right" it may seem.

Yes, I'm looking at you, Lost In Space Dude - you don't really want to condone precedents of abridging privacy, which would necessarily reach far beyond the relatively insignificant Poser world, for all of us, not only the dishonest:

Quote -
They should be forced to keep records of who is sharing what. Plain and Simple.

Silke, call back MS and ask to talk to a manager and tell them what happened.  If that doesn't help talk to the manager's manager.  Eventually you'll get through to someone.

What Winterclaw said.

And also, Silke, in the future you might want to invest in some CD/DVD plastic cases like you can get at Wal-Mart at 50 for $3.00. To avoid scratches and all. I have, literally thousands of CD's and DVD's - music, programs, movies,  backups, and have not yet had a need to replace one. Because, you know, scratches don't just happen on their own. ;-)
And if you make copies for yourself, you can almost entirely eliminate the possibility of ever needing a replacement.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote -

I'ms sorry but by that logic they should have outlawed Pawnbrokering years ago! And yet Pawnshops still exist all across the USA  and continue to sell "HOT" merchandise! On top of that, what with all the high prices on metal these days, Metal buyers in my city have all been forced to record all of their buyers because with all the forclosures, vacant homes are being stripped of their copper wire and tubing across the city. We can't jail the metal merchants for providing an outlet to theives to sell stolen metal!

I know it's hard to catch it, but I thought people and merchants do get in trouble when they get caught selling stolen goods.

They only get into trouble if they don't have records of Who they bought from. This same rule should apply to peer sharing sites. You don't see Pawn Broker's being hauled off in droves for selling stolen merchandise because they keep records of who they buy what from and the cops then go get the theives and NOT the merchants. The same should apply to internet file sharing sites. They should be forced to keep records of who is sharing what. Plain and Simple.

Well, torrent sites for example inherentlly have records, published online, because they track whom is seeding what, and spreading that information around. It's warehouse of information where you can get various illegal copies of software, music, movies etc... and an occasional legal piece. I would think that would make them an accessory in distribution of stolen goods.

By that logic so would a pawn broker. The point is. If they have the records, they should be bound by law to release them just as Pawn Brokers are. That would keep the heat off them and on the theives where it should be. Period.

Quote - > Quote - Piracy is as old as the software industry.

The FBI is not gonna break down your door and confiscate your computer because you stole a pair of fairy wings.
I'm not advocating anything but any characterization of this discussion as anything but philosophical is a serious disconnect from reality.

These convictions are legally insignificant outside of Sweden.
The OP is guilty of fear mongering.

That's a brilliant post, and one of the few here on this subject which makes sense!

Except I disagree on one point: Piracy goes back long before software - they used to just call it theft. ;-)

And while there may be those who advocate the gub'ment stepping in and intruding on people to keep them honest, I still say it's a can of worms nobody really wants to open, no matter how "right" it may seem.

Yes, I'm looking at you, Lost In Space Dude - you don't really want to condone precedents of abridging privacy, which would necessarily reach far beyond the relatively insignificant Poser world, for all of us, not only the dishonest:

Quote -
They should be forced to keep records of who is sharing what. Plain and Simple.

Look all you want MikeJ. The precidents already exist, so my condoning is irrelevant. There are already laws on the books that require Pawn Brokers, Video Resellers, Metal Recyclers and any number of other "Redistributors" to keep records of their transactions so that thefts can be traced.

I don't see forcing Torrent sites keeping records of original uploaders of Torrents, (You know, the ones who seed the files first), as any sort of breach of Privacy. Keeping records of those who are downloading, wouldn't be neccesary. You want to stop the uploaders and then there will BE no illegal downloading correct? Those are the only records that need to be legally released to the authorities. 

Here's a great example. Here in Saint Louis, there has been a HUGE rise in break ins of forclosed and abandoned homes to steal the copper to resell to recycling houses because of the economy being what it is and the current price on copper. Because of this, a local law was passed last year requiring that All the local recycling places require a Drivers license or state ID before they will buy your metal scrapes now. PERIOD.

If you're caught selling stolen copper. It's your ass on the line, not the metal recyclers, not the people who buy from them either. It's the theive's backside that will get hauled off.

Another thing, by throwing the rights' of privacy at this you're building a straw man. Otherwise, what thieves do in the privacy of an empty store or ware house full of jewels, if nobody else is there, is done in private. Now we all know just how silly that sounds don't we?

Nah, I'm done fart-arsing around with MS.
And copying the original DVD/CD doesn't always work. Some have some kind of DRM mechanism that won't let you. Been there, done that, got that particular T-Shirt.
My original DVD ran once, went into a DVD wallet after that. I call it a "Scratch" because it simply conks out mid install, unable to read files.

Well it's your brother's money and your choice. Me, I'd call again til I got the right help desk person or speak to their boss. I'm just pushy that way when it comes to getting good customer service. :tt2:

Quote -
I don't see forcing Torrent sites keeping records of original uploaders of Torrents, (You know, the ones who seed the files first), as any sort of breach of Privacy.

And how do they do that? Force the ISP to submit personal details, like name, address and so on to the feds? And whose feds, anyway? The feds in Russia, Singapore...Sweden? The fact that the internet is international and subject to widely diverse laws in and of itself is enough to make it impossible, but say for a minute these things only happen in free, democratic countries, like the US.

As it is, your ISP can be forced to give up all the details about you to the police, if there's a real good reason. What you're condoning is making that difficult process a whole lot easier. The ISP would have to make people's records immediately available, and in bulk quantity too. All protection of anonymity and privacy would be lost out of necessity and for the sake of expediency and efficiency.
Eventually, every site you sign up with where uploading something is possible would be forced, by law, to have all your personal details on file for... just in case.

And before long, you find yourself having to show ID just to buy a music CD or a movie DVD at Wal-Mart, also... just in case...
What you're advocating basically is breaking down one of the last set of privacies we have, and setting precedents for future intrusion into our lives and our actions. Is that what you want?
Just because it's already done to a large degree in other aspects of our lives doesn't make it any better, doesn't make it OK to break down the few remaining barriers.

But what do I know - I'm a borderline anarchist anyway, and more than anything I want to see FEWER laws, not more. Someone steals your stuff, you find him and beat him to death, not run crying to Uncle Fed for Justice. ;-)

When your answer to every problem begins to become, "Oh, let's just make a new law for that", you have really started to go down a very dangerous road as a society. But then again, in the US at least, we're almost there as it is....

In any event, as I already said, the illegal torrent sites are foreign and not subject to US laws. Are you one of those people who believes in total sovereignty for foreign nations? Because, you know, we can't just go imposing our will on other country's laws.

Attached Link: http://i.gizmodo.com/5224097/pirate-bay-judge-connected-with-copyright-lobby-faces-accusations-of-bias

seems we have a Mistrial on our hands!

to quote "Tomas Norström, the judge who sentenced the Pirate Bay Four, was recently found to have been a member of two copyright advocacy organizations, prompting rumblings about a mistrial."

and

" but the fact that a juror on the case had to be dismissed for membership in the same organizations should at least raise eyebrows."*

and the plot thickens....

Well it looks like that situation just became a whole lot more interesting. ;-)

Quote - But what do I know - I'm a borderline anarchist anyway.....

Well Mike I can see from that statement right there that neither you nor I are going to agree on this. I find Anarchy to be much more dangerous than laws. End of story mate.

I wasn't talking forcing ISP's to keep the records. Just the sites administering the transaction. Every torrent site I've been to you've had to create an account to upload a torrent to them. Those are the records I'm talking about keeping and sharing with law enforcement. They also have records of the IP addresses of the uploaders.

I still say, stop the uploaders and you stop the crime. Anyway, I've said my piece on what I think the solution is. You don't have to agree with me, but criminalizing the administration of the sites that make file sharing available seems to be much more dangerous to me than what I've suggested.

Quote -
You don't have to agree with me, but criminalizing the administration of the sites that make file sharing available seems to be much more dangerous to me than what I've suggested.

I'm not particularly in favor of that, either...

I don't have any answers about what to do about it, though. I get all my stuff the good old fashioned legal way and I'm rather particular about what I'll download. Well, OK, I've shared some music mp3 files with friends via emails and Skype, but pretty much everybody does that, and I've bought the CDs legally, but that's the extent of it. And I haven't even done that in a long time either, and never to any great extent.

But personally I think the whole software piracy things is blown way out of proportion. Its very nature makes it inevitable, and the fact software can be copied an infinite number of times makes it impossible to prevent it getting circulated.

The best thing I can think of is like Blackhearted said about making people WANT to buy your stuff, whether it's Poser crap, Metallica's latest insult to metal, or Windows. We already pay way too many people way too much money trying to catch software pirates, and the problem will never be solved. The best they can hope for is that someone eventually comes up with a truly uncrackable protection scheme, and then it gets applied to everything. Which of course isn't going to happen.

The best defense against piracy is low prices.
Also in the software world if you want product support you have to buy the product.
The number of countries and governments in the world and the sheer volume of data passing through the internet guarantees that piracy is here to stay.
If you had a product for sale on the net and you wanted to make sure no one was pirating it the amount of time it would take to police the world would insure that you never had time for anything else.
Life's too short.
Live and let live.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

"They also have records of the IP addresses of the uploaders." Which will be spoofed, Onion Routed, anonymized, etc. But irregardles, one new study seems to suggest that the pirates may be the music biz's best customers.www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr/21/study-finds-pirates-buy-more-music

"They also have records of the IP addresses of the uploaders." Which will be spoofed, Onion Routed, anonymized, etc. But irregardles, one new study seems to suggest that the pirates may be the music biz's best customers.www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr/21/study-finds-pirates-buy-more-music

Quote - "They also have records of the IP addresses of the uploaders." Which will be spoofed, Onion Routed, anonymized, etc. But irregardles, one new study seems to suggest that the pirates may be the music biz's best customers.www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr/21/study-finds-pirates-buy-more-music

That's true too. Whoever it was that wrote the internet software should be forced to rewrite it to stop spoofers. :tt2: Guess we should blame Al Gore for that one huh?

Frankly, I'd love to live in a society that runs like the Federation in Star Trek where there is NO money and everything is available to everyone. Pipe Dream, I know, but I like it. Want to read a book, call up the Holodeck version and live it. :biggrin:

Quote -
Frankly, I'd love to live in a society that runs like the Federation in Star Trek where there is NO money and everything is available to everyone.

I can't remember now which Star Trek movie it was, but in one of them Picard was explaining the money system to someone, and I almost couldn't enjoy the rest of the movie afterwards.

I just kept thinking, yup, the Hollywood liberals trying to push socialism on us...

I'm sure it won't surprise you that I'm also very much opposed to socialism in any form. ;-)

socialism?

no.

Replicators.

think about it ;)

Yeah well he said something like, "we have no use for money anymore, everything is free, or shared...", or something like that. I can't remember now. I probably took it out of context, but that's the thought that came into my head.

Replicators, I have no problem with. ;)

Hmmm....I wonder if there will be lawsuits when people replicate patented products?

Sue the Replicators!!! Oh wait, wouldn't that be better suited to Star Gate?

Quote - Hmmm....I wonder if there will be lawsuits when people replicate patented products?

Considering that we already have lawsuits when patented products replicate all by themselves...(see Monsanto v. Schmeiser)

You think digital piracy is bad, just wait until someone replicates YOU and sends your double to work in place of you, drunk and naked. ;-)

Sylar!!! That's a Heroes reference in case anyone doesn't watch it.

Quote - You think digital piracy is bad, just wait until someone replicates YOU and sends your double to work in place of you, drunk and naked. ;-)

I don't need a duplicate for THAT to  happen

In Canada it's perfectly legal to download copyrighted material from P2P software since the court ruling of 2003 so there is no stealing or crime involved, hurt sensibilities aside.
Every American who has ever converted a song on a music CD to an Mp3 and put it on an MP3 player is a criminal since US copyright law prohibits format switching. If you buy a CD and change the format of a song to MP3 for your personal use you are committing  a copyright violation. Every time you record your favorite show you are committing a copyright violation unless you have the express permission of the network to do so.
The contestant Susan Boyle from Britain's got talent only became a sensation due to the illegal posting of an episode of the show on youtube. They're not complaining mind you because it brought great interest to the show.
One man's piracy is another man's publicity I guess.
Did you know that the membership of the Pirate Bay went up by 3000 members after the verdict?
I don't advocate piracy and you can tell by my post count that I'm not a very active poster I joined the old site in 1999) but I cannot sit idly by while facts are being distorted to serve someone's agenda.

Sleep soundly.
Your harddrives are safe.

2004: BMG Canada Inc. v. John Doe

In 2004, the Canadian Recording Industry Association(CRIA) was dealt a blow in its bid to take action against 29 internet users with extensive file sharing activities. The CRIA filed suit to have the ISPs reveal the identities of the 29 file sharers. In the ruling, both the Federal Court of Canada and the Federal Court of Appeal judged that the CRIA's case was not strong enough to support interfering with the defendants right to privacy and questioned whether the CRIA had a copyright case at all based on its evidence. Because the ISPs were not required to reveal the identities of their clients, the CRIA could not go on to sue the file sharers in a manner mimicking the RIAA's legal proceedings in the U.S.A. The court further found that both downloading music and putting it in a shared folder available to other people online were legal in Canada. This decision dealt a major blow to attempts by the CRIA to crack down on file sharers.