And offtopic, Terragen 2, I didn't realise it had been released, but now it has the images are absolutely amazing, good job Planetside!

Jon

I tell you, the more I read statements from alexcoppo and Silverblade, the less I understand your reaction. Would you please read both my posts and tell me where I'm thinking wrong?

Must confess I'm not sure what's causing the upset either. Sounds to me like e-on has offered a pretty good deal by giving both 7.4 and 7.5 users a v8 upgrade for the same price.

Or maybe I'm missing something ...

Quote - I dont mean to drone on but really, shouldnt they consider fixing the problems with the current program rather than lumping out extra things we have to pay for?

I've been using Vue since version 2 and I haven't seen E-On do anything else then that. They always fix the bugs from the previous version in the next version and then manage to create new bugs. It's an ongoing thing, they only way to stop such behaviour is a massive boycott of their products, something like the currency exchange rate one we had a number of years back.

I've been using Vue intensively for more than 2 years and I've come across only a fairly small amount of bugs. And for all the bugs I encountered, there was always a workaround. I'm a happy customer.

Quote - I've been using Vue intensively for more than 2 years and I've come across only a fairly small amount of bugs. And for all the bugs I encountered, there was always a workaround. I'm a happy customer.

QFT  - I love Vue to bits :)

Vue 5 Infinite, even for me, was buggy as hell for the first 6 months, ugh.
VUe 6 was less so and nearly all bugs gone by 6 month period.
Vue 7 is even less buggy than 6 and was moslty ok for me from the start, BUT, it is much much smoother on 64 bit systems with lots of RAM than on 32 bit systems. It really is a night and day difference. Not everyone has such rigs though.

the modular upgrade approach is causing bugs/problems for some, it's obviously a stupid over complexity.
Just sell Vue Studio for $100, Infinite for $400, Xstream for $740, and end that crap!! 3 versions, less wasted time for bug hunting.
Simples! he says like a Russian Meerkat (British joke :p http://www.comparethemeerkat.com/home )

MAC users seem to have a LOT of troubles with Vue :/

Crafty, Rutra,
economic meltdown...folk lack money...not a good time to be asking for more money, especiallyhen many other companies are giving free upgrades,discounts etc.

Pixilogic, I've went from v2 Zbrush to to soon v4 for free.
Lightwave v8, now to 9.5 all free and big savings if I had went for Lightwave Core.

E-On's product is less than 6 months old, and now they want more money for an add on, but if you buy that add on, that $295 will not come off Vue8 price.
And way E-On has done it all, as if only Studios matter to them as customers.

You may not see it, but that's what a lot of folk are getting from this, and are angry.

"Let them eat cake" was not a good thing ot say, at a certain moment in history :D (Whether she said it or not doesn't matter, the very idea blew folks's stacks because they were suffering...bad timing)

Quote - "I've been using Vue intensively for more than 2 years and I've come across only a fairly small amount of bugs. And for all the bugs I encountered, there was always a workaround. I'm a happy customer.
"

Quote - QFT  - I love Vue to bits :)

Me three! But also I'm fortunate to be on a Windows 64 bit system with lots of RAM.

I also own Cinema 4d and chose not to upgrade to 10.5 from 10.1 last year - now that hurt when I upgraded to v11 - painfully close to the original purchase price for my core version. Sounds like  going from Vue 7.4 to 8 won't be nearly so painful. I also have had Zbrush from v1.4 and gotten free upgrades all along and I must admit that's been pretty nice (I honestly don't know how Pixologic can do this and still make money)

This is not to downplay the fact that the economy is not good at all, and many of us are having to make choices where it would have been a "no brainer" in the not so distant past. Here's hoping for all of our sakes the economy picks up. There are so many who are really struggling

I've been using Vue 6 Infinite since it got out, and haven't updated since the amount of new stuff I want doesn't justify the price. I won't upgrade until the new feature to price ratio shift for me, which may be 8, or 9, or never.

 Steven,

You really need to face the fact, you are NOT e-on's targeted customer for their Professional line which includes Infinite. By your own admission, you are a hobbyist. 

More than a year and a half ago, I had a discussion with an e-on person and they disclosed to me they were losing sales because they did not have a maintenance plan in place. It's clear to me (perhaps not to you) they have since set up two different product lines: the Professional line and the Artist product line.

If you want to own a professional line product, then prepare to pay for it like the professionals have to. Or else, consider staying with the Artist line. I know you are in a situation where you cannot afford to commit to continued expenses associated with the Pro line. I understand you feel angry, betrayed, and frustrated. Truthfully, that is the way it is now in all 3D programs. They all have subscription plans where it's less expensive to purchase a maintenance agreement than pay out of pocket for each upgrade. That's just how it is. You don't have to like, or accept it. But you won't change it.

Of course, I too see the complaining in other forums-- most of it is from from the same audience-- the hobbyists. That is no surprise to me.

Steven, thanks again for your tutorials and support on this forum. You've always been a great contributor and solid citizen, and it is because of your consistent and helpful attitude I continue to spend time replying to you.

I hope things do work out for you and you continue to support this community as you would be sorely missed in all the forums you so generously participate.

-Chipp

Quote - MAC users seem to have a LOT of troubles with Vue :/

I can certainly vouch for that. While Vue 6 infinite started out a little buggy on the Mac, it ultimately became a very stable application and I had no qualms about upgrading to version 7. Unfortunately that was a bad choice as Vue 7 Infinite on the Mac is one of the most buggy pieces of software I've ever used. Seriously. For every bug I report, I encounter two more and very few of them have been resolved to date. Perhaps the free 7.4 update will fix everything that's outstanding, but I'm really not holding my breath at this point.

While I'm not a major studio by any stretch, I do work commercially and like with anyone dealing with clients and deadlines, I require reliable tools and Vue 7 Infinite is not one of them. To that end I am still using version 6 for pretty much everything and just using 7 as a renderer, the one thing it's actually pretty good at on the Mac. I really think that before e-on tries to sell an update of any kind, they should fix the software that users have already paid for.

As it stands today I feel like I gave e-on a good chunk of money to beta test  their software without any sort of payoff. I'm not bagging on Vue as I truly love the application, but can't understand e-on's thinking on this at all. If they continue down the path of releasing buggy, half-baked software and overpriced paid 'point' upgrades before fixing the existing bugs, I'm going to have to start looking for an alternative as I can't keep working like this, nor can I afford to. 

 Hi there, I didn't really understand the newsletter.
If I do want to buy the 7.5 upgrade what is the best thing to do.  I bought vue 7 xstream when it first came out.  I don't remember seeing a maintenance package being offered.
If I buy a maintenance package now then can i get vue 7.5 immediately?
Love esther

Quote -  Hi there, I didn't really understand the newsletter.
If I do want to buy the 7.5 upgrade what is the best thing to do.  I bought vue 7 xstream when it first came out.  I don't remember seeing a maintenance package being offered.
If I buy a maintenance package now then can i get vue 7.5 immediately?
Love esther

Yes,  when you get the maintenance package, you can download a pre-release version of Vue 7.5 immediately.

 thanks.
Love esther

 do u think this free one would do the job of allowing me to download  vue 7.5?
Priority Support Incident
Requires a registered license of Vue 7 US$0.00

 found a link that explains it and I need the more expensive one.
Love esther

Esther,

What you will need is Standard Maintenance for Vue 7 xStream which goes for $595.

Also, it will only last for a year from when you purchased Vue 7 xStream, not when you purchase the plan-- so be sure you know you want the features in 7.5 before purchasing it as it is expensive.

 no that doesn't seem correct:-
"“Effective Date” is the date at which you purchased the maintenance plan."

Chip,

The way I read E-Ons' newsletter is that it will cost me $595 to upgrade to xStream 7.5 and then another $595 to upgrade to xStream 8.0.  If I do not upgrade to 7.5, it will cost me $1190 to upgrade to xStream 8.0 when it comes out.  Sorry, but that is the way I understand E-Ons' language in upgrading from 7.0 to 8.0.

I upgraded my copy of Infinite 6 to xStream 7 because I wanted to try a few things with 3D Studio Max (which I still have to buy).  Now, my employer re-imburses me for AutoCAD and CAiCE maintenance fees, but any additional apps I buy and play with, I pay for myself until I can prove to my employer that I can bring benefit to our company with those apps.

Hence, I am willing to upgrade, but I do not want nor need the maintenance option until I can make xStream pay for itself.  People like me, who need to learn and play to get to know the product are being priced out of the ballpark.  I do believe in keeping oneself current and on top of knowledge, but to have to spend $1500/year (upgrade & maintenance) just to learn on the latest is a bit too much for me.

Yes - I would LOVE to get the Academic version - does Paula Sanders' course apply?

I hope that I am wrong about the xStream upgrade to 8.0 because I cannot afford the upgrade to 7.5 nor the maintenance fees at this time.  (I just may be able to afford 3D Studio Max with my Income Tax refund.)  Also, as maintenance is yearly and xStream seems to be upgraded a full point release every 2 years, the upgrade from 7 to 8 using maintenance fees would cost $1190 anyway.

Could be worse... E-On could go "belly-up" in this economy (hope not).

Ester...

I think you are not correct but Chip is.  The maintenance plan starts from the date when you purchased xStream, not when you purchased the plan.  In other words, you may have lost 3 months already from the first plan purchase if you bought xStream 3 months ago.  The plan starts/renews from the anniversary of when you first purchased xStream.  That's how I read E-Ons' language anyway.  Elaborate if you pursue this further please.

Cheers...

 How can that be.  Here is the user agreement from e-on:-

Maintenance Plan Agreement Your use of a Maintenance Plan is subject to the terms and conditions set forth below (the “Agreement”).

1.       Definitions

For purposes of this Agreement, the following terms shall have the respective meanings indicated below:

“Support Services” means any product or service that may be provided to you from time to time by e-on software as part of your Maintenance Plan. E-on software reserves the right to add or remove services to the Maintenance Plan, at its sole discretion, and without prior notification. Support services provided by e-on software are provided solely in English.

“EULA”, “End User License Agreement” refers to e-on software’s standard end user license agreement included with each copy of an e-on software product.

“Account”, “User account” refers to the web-page at http://www.e-onsoftware.com/support/account.php, or any successor URL provided by e-on software, where you registered your products and maintenance plans, and provided the personal information required by e-on software.

“You”, the person or entity who uses the product that is under maintenance.

“Effective Date” is the date at which you purchased the maintenance plan.

“Business Day” is a day that is neither Saturday, Sunday nor an e-on software designated holiday.

“Business hours” are 9AM-5PM Pacific Standard Time on normal business days.

“License Server” refers to the e-on software License Server, the purpose of which is to hand out product licenses to users on a network.

 And you will get the full version 8 when it comes out for free:-
'Free upgrades during the subscription period, including free upgrades to all .5 and full versions,"

 as long as the maintenance period hasn't expired.
Love esther

Quote - I think the "same upgrade price to 8 from 7 or 7.5" seals it for me ... it's a no brainer to wait until 8 comes out.

E-on has re-worded their press release for other sites.  It looks to me like the upgrade price from either 7 or 7.5 to 8 is the same only if you subscribe to their maint fee.

 but 8 is free if you have the maintenance plan...

Quote -  but 8 is free if you have the maintenance plan...

True.  But you are paying for the maintenance plan to get 7.5 and 8 for free.  And sometimes you have to renew your subscription again before the next version is released.  They should use a different word for free.  I don't buy maintenance fees because companies put less updates into their software when they do that.  I'd rather wait for Vue 9.  It should have enough updates worth paying for.

Ester...

I've re-read the Maintenance agreement.  Please note section 4.1...

4.1     Effective Date; Term.

"The effective date (“Effective Date”) of the initial term (“Initial Term”) of your Maintenance Plan will be the earlier of (i) the date at which you initially purchased the Maintenance Plan, (ii) the date of first activation of the product placed under maintenance and (iii) the date of release of a full or .5 upgrade to the product version for which you purchased this Maintenance Plan, or any other date determined by e-on software in accordance with e-on software’s support policies. "

"Renewal terms of your Maintenance Plan will begin on the anniversary date of the Effective Date, and will continue for one (1) year from the later of the anniversary of the Effective Date and the preceding renewal term."

Ester,
Please check the wording of  "will be the earlier of "  and "(ii) the date of first activation of the product placed under maintenance".

That tells me that your maintenance agreement will start from when you first activated your copy of xStream, and that your maintenance agreement will be backdated to that date.

Technically, you could argue for (iii), but my feeling is that E-On would push for (ii).

Also, if you let your maintenance agreement expire and then want to re-establish it...

"If you wish to reinstate your expired Maintenance Plan, you will be required to agree to the then current e-on software Maintenance Plan Subscription Agreement, and you will be required to purchase at least both the then-current software product release and a Maintenance Plan for that Release. You may also be subject to the payment of additional fees and expenses."

I'm only assuming that from what I read from the Maintenance Agreement.  Ester, I suggest that you contact E-On and get a clarification to your satisfaction before you commit yourself.  I could be wrong and have to eat my words, but from what I've read in the maintenancve agreeement I do not think I am.  I would love for someone to prove me wrong on that.

Cheers,
JoeK

Quote - How can that be.  Here is the user agreement from e-on:-

"Effective Date" is the date at which you purchased the maintenance plan."

The problem is that the detailed explanation at 4.1 of the Maintenance Plan Agreement popup window (here) -- is contradictory to the bit you copied:

"4.1     Effective Date; Term.

The effective date ("Effective Date”) of the initial term ("Initial Term”) of your Maintenance Plan will be the earlier of (i) the date at which you initially purchased the Maintenance Plan, (ii) the date of first activation of the product placed under maintenance and (iii) the date of release of a full or .5 upgrade to the product version for which you purchased this Maintenance Plan..."

According to (ii), since I bought Vue last Nov., if I bought the plan today it will expire in November 2009, not in May 2010; because it is the earliest of the 3 events above. Unless I'm misinterpreting this?

P.S. Thanks for beating me to it, surveyman!! 
AnyHOO, I put a link directly to the agreement, so THERE! lol

Ah... at least 2 of us see the wording the same way.  Must be something to it.

Why would anyone need a more expensive app unless their job required it or they made their living freelancing on a very professional level? Sometimes I think there are people out there that have to have every new version of something or they feel like they are an "incomplete" person or the feel the need to keep up with the other guy. If you're just an hobbyist or a person that makes some money on the side why shoot for apps that are so expensive especially in this economy. That or your income is on line with a small nation.

Over the last year I have been working for a company and a client that requires that the majority of work, especially outside scenes, be done in Vue. We have updated from Vue 6 infinite to Vue 7 infinite now mind you these are professional people both in movie work, game development and animation and have been so for over 30 years. Infinite fits their needs yes they could purchase the 7.5 upgrade with no problem but they aren't.

Crap ya know what I don't even know where I am going with this....LOL! All I can say is I see all sides but it comes down to this if ya need it for your work go for it! IF not save your money cause with things as they are, unless you're a king of a small nation with more money that you know what to do with, one doesn't know how long they have at their job and how long the money is going to last. I do agree strongly that with the world economy as it is now is not the time to holding your hand out for more from people that don't have it.

Quote -  And you will get the full version 8 when it comes out for free:-
'Free upgrades during the subscription period, including free upgrades to all .5 and full versions,"

Esther, that is true only if Vue 8 is released within the term of your maintenance agreement. IOW, if you purchase a maintenance agreement now, and it's renew date (the date you originally purchased xStream--NOT the date of purchase of the maintenance agreement) is 6 months from now, then if Vue 8 has not been released between now and then you will not get an upgrade to it. You must then purchase another maintenance agreement when this one expires. Think of a maintenance agreement more like a subscription. My guess is Vue 8 would not be out by next October, though I certainly could be wrong.

What e-on is saying is you do not have to purchase Vue 7.5 to be eligible for the same upgrade pricing to 8.0. IOW, folks without a maintenance agreement who currently own Vue 7.0 will pay the same to upgrade to 8.0 as those with 7.5.

And those with a current maintenance agreement will pay nothing to update to 8.0

Chip,

I have to disagree with you.  I feel that the upgrade cost from 7.0 to 8.0 will be the same as an upgade cost to 7.5 and then an additional cost to upgrade from 7.5 to 8.0.  By E-On saying that the upgrade costs will be the same - to me - means that you will pay the full cost of the upgrade whether you do that now (to 7.5 - incrementaly, then again to 8.0) or later (to 8.0 - full cost upgrade - both "to 7.5" and "7.5 to 8.0") .

I cannot see E-On cutting financial slack to people not on maintenance agreements or who do not wish to stay current.  In fact I feel that E-On will make it painfully expensive for anyone wishing to upgrade outside of a maintenance agreement.

I am also predicting that E-On will go the AutoDESK way - yearly full point paid for upgrades.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking E-ON, it's just what I see happening given the way things have developed so far

Cheers....

Upon further reflection, i think surveyman may well be correct.  It could be interpreted that way.

John

 If you look at the bottom of this page:
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/about/newsletter/

You will see:

*The cost of the upgrade to the next version of Vue will be the same
whether you upgrade from Vue 7 or Vue 7.5.

Chipp, what you copied is only the footnote - in the press release - to the following sentence:

...However, e-on software strongly recommends that they consider subscribing to a maintenance plan instead, as this may prove more cost effective...*

Just to be precise in quoting.

I did see that.  However, just for kicks let's use round numbers.

Say the upgrade price from 7.5 to 8  is 300.00.
The upgrade from 7.0 could be 595.00, and that statement would still be correct because both camps would have spent the same amount to upgrade to version 8.

I hope that isn't the case, but I can see how it might be the case.

John

John,

That is precisely what I am saying.  That is what I see happening.

The only free item I've read about from E-on for non-subscribers is version 7.4.  7.5 will be a "pay for" and so will 8.0.  I'm guessing 7.0 to 8.0 will cost more than 7.0 to 7.5 to 8.0.  That is the Vue of  things.

Hate to say I told you so...

We were told incremental paid upgrades were eon's policy, so no one should be surprised.

The writing has been on the internet-web-wall for a long time.

E-on is cashing out seeing how much money they can milk out of their customers.

I know people who upgrade every software they have just to be current.  I've seen companies with this same motto. 

In the long run e-on will lose but they stand to cash in on some quick money this year while the world economy tanks.

Even Chipp has to see that this is off base and no way to treat long time customers!

According to my understanding, with 295$ you can:

1. get now 7.5, with the 7.5 -> 8 step for free, or...
2. jump from 7 -> 8 later on

which is not a bad proposition, money-wise.

The problems are:

1. features are being added just as reaction to other products and not as result of an indipendent product strategy and
2. you have to trust E-On word; as there is no signed contract between them and us about this issue, this offer is obviously open to Darth Vader like hope-I-won't-change-again-the-deal revisions later on.

Bye...

P.S.: today I visited a page in which a saw a video which made me wonder whether we are all like owners of horse-driven carts discussing about the merits of the different horses while a Ford T is passing along the road...

 CobraEye,

I stopped taking seriously anything you or alexcoppo have to say a very long time ago. You've both shown yourself to be long time haters of e-on and Vue, so your opinions are always viewed in a skeptical light.

Chipp you are way off and very judgmental. 

Lighten up and show some respect for others even if they don't agree with you. 

I've been part of the vue community for a long time.  And you've been trying to label me for a long time.  It very unbecoming of you.

I bought Vue 6 Infinite and your Terrapak and love both very much.  Thank you for all your hard work and teaching me about materials and terrains.  I like your artwork, too.

But I disagree on almost everything else you think about vue and me,

I think I update to 7.5 for the $300 now. Then the next step to 8.0 will not be so money intense as a full step from 7.0 to 8.0 . The maintenance way I do not go, because I am on a PC and never had much trouble with Vue.

Mazak

I'm with you, Mazak. I'll start preparing now for the expense of 7.5, so v8 is a little less hard on the pocketbook. I'm on PC also and don't need the maintenance agreement, really just need to pay for the various releases, not support. CG is definitely an expensive habit, regardless!!

To be honest, I would wait until E-On clears it up a little.  I was just speculating. 

It very well may be that the full price to upgrade is the same from either 7.5 or 7.0.  If so, there wouldn't be any benefit to upgrade to 7.5 if your goal is to save money on 8.  You would actually be paying more in that case.

I know, I am clear as mud! 

John

Quote -
I stopped taking seriously anything you or alexcoppo have to say a very long time ago. You've both shown yourself to be long time haters of e-on and Vue, so your opinions are always viewed in a skeptical light.

Actually, if anybody is interested in that trivial concept called truth and searches old posts, I was a stauch supporter of Vue when E-On were behaving in a good way (and I showed it also several time, with a thing called credit card). I have also to add that I bought a certain package called... wait, if I remember well... haha yes! TerraPack (and I am satisfied of it, just the tip about texture antialiasing is worth the price).

Obviously, being a client and not a third party developer, I am not bound to follow the Party line and therefore, when I see behaviours which put to risk my investment (which for a hobbyst is not slight) I am understandably upset and voice it.

As I understand it, being a client gives you some right, not marks you as someone who has to be milked away in the most inhuman way, until he develops mad cow disease... at least this is the way I behave with my clients, respecting them and, when they exceed the alert stupidity level, softly trying to educate them. I always remember that, if I can put something in the dish twice a day, it is not because I am entitled to it but because clients keep paying my bills.

Bye...

I would agree with cobra. Today is the first time I broke out my VUE 6 in a long rime. I have played with the easel beta vesion of & loved it and the new Ozone. I loved what they produced it was off putting to see I could produce musn better  pictures but cannot in this economic era justify the money.

@Jcleaver you and surveyman’s speculation is 100% correct. (We can bet on it) I also agree we have to wait and see first in e-on store an official update pricelist. For now we can only wait. I also hope the maintenance user (who becomes first a pre release) dig out the mayor bugs first. :laugh: (an idea I like)

Mazak

Quote - I've been using Vue 6 Infinite since it got out, and haven't updated since the amount of new stuff I want doesn't justify the price. I won't upgrade until the new feature to price ratio shift for me, which may be 8, or 9, or never.

I'm in the same boat , with the way Vue is being priced these days never is looking like the best option for upgrading for me .

cheers

how much u want for it?

Quote - Well that does it for me. I started with version 4.   I can't afford Vue anymore.  I very reluctantly paid to go from 6inf to 7inf.  This is the last straw.  I'm unregistering all my Vue software and selling it all.  Time to bail out.  Bye E-on.

Anyone being strongarmed into upgrading to 7.5?