Hallo! I've always received great answers on this forum, so I'm back again. :]

I'm currently doing animation.. and I've always wondered:  When doing arm movement.. should I be using the Shoulder or the Collar? Or both?
 
I can think of situations where you'd need both.. the more extreme twists and bends. But what about for subtle movements?

Thanks!

I think you would restrict yourself if you did not use both.

Both!

Even for subtle movements?! 

Let's say for example.. your hand resting on your stomach.. then your hand starts rubbing your belly. Not much movement at all.. just small circles. 

 How would you mix the Collar and Shoulder here together? A couple of degrees on one parameter.. say "Front-Back" on Collar, and then a couple of degrees on the same parameter on shoulder?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what the Collar actually is. Right now I'm under the impression that the Collar and Shoulder are sort of one in the same.

The shoulder is primary in arm movement.  The collar is secondary. 

Quote - The shoulder is primary in arm movement.  The collar is secondary. 

Hiya Pat!

How's it shakin?

Quote - The shoulder is primary in arm movement.  The collar is secondary. 

Yep! Usually the shoulder moves a lot more than the collar. How much more probably depends on the pose and how exactly the figure you're using is rigged. You'll have to study your poses and movements and see how much collar movement you need to make things look good.

I don't think in your belly-rubbing example there would be any visible collar movement. But for other similar poses there might be. Just imagine rubbing your hip or waist instead of your belly.

Anyway, I said "both!" because ignoring the collar is a common mistake.

*Hiya Pat!

How's it shakin?

Great!  How's everything goin' with you?

If ya get a chance pm me.

I'm great Pat!

I've gotten into Modeling with Hexagon and love it.

PM? Copy.

Quote - *I've gotten into Modeling with Hexagon and love it.

Excellent!  Wanna help out on the hair and clothes for Nora Jane?

Ok PM me her OBJ file and I'll help as best I can. We can go to the Hexagon forum and start a new topic about this.

Quote - Maybe I'm misunderstanding what the Collar actually is. Right now I'm under the impression that the Collar and Shoulder are sort of one in the same.

I found the terminology a little confusing. In V4, for example, a movement of the 'Collar' actor will move the model's shoulder in relation to chest and neck, and a movement of the 'Shoulder' actor will move her upper arm in relation to her shoulder. I just tend to think of the 'Shoulder' actor as meaning upper arm, and the 'Collar' actor as meaning shoulder.

When I rub my belly (which I do now because I've had no lunch yet!) I have to make a very conscious effort if I want to stop my shoulder ('Collar') following my upper arm ('Shoulder') movements slightly. If I relax and do it naturally, my shoulder follows... small but definite and noticeable movements. I think it's these missing details that the eye picks up in an animation and the brain subconsciously interprets as "unnatural" or "stiff".

I guess it depends how far you want to go with your animations.

Sounds good!  I'll send the obj as soon as lightwave is finished exporting the inj morphs to poser.  Got 700+ morphs so it may take the better part of the day. lol.

I always move my collars and shoulders in a 1:2 ratio (one degree of collar to every two degrees of shoulder).  I move my necks and heads in the same way, which I think more or less reflects reality.
DPH

collars are needed for moves like a shrug . Just reaching forward to pick something up its more shoulder and collar comes in when the arm is about horizontal at shoulder height . You need to consider both.

definitely both.

Would it be helpful to have an extra dials in the shoulder (or collar?) that rotated the shoulder by a certain percentage, and the collar by another lesser percentage? And if so what should the ratio be?

This should not be hard to implement for figures that have the DAZ PBMCC_## channels.