I've tried the Lightwave trial 9.6 and after studying some tutorials and of course downloading some of the figures from the below site...I just bought lightwave.  I've worked on trying to make V4 as realistic as I could with Carrara 7 pro with some degree of sucess, but after loading the figures at ir-models and being blown away by what is possible in lightwave...I'm sold!

beware, nudity on site.  He does charge an annual fee, but you get unlimited downloads and he updates the site with a new model a week so far...

http://www.ir-models.com/product_info.php?products_id=37

Carrara 7 pro just does not seem to have the tutorial support (Marks excellent tutorials are all thats out there) and power that Lightwave has and of course and the program doesnt seem as buggy as Carrara...

As a Lightwave owner I know you will have serious "why did I do that"--very soon.

Secondly, the tutorials availabe for Carrara are HUGE and go back years--you obviously have not seriously looked.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Carrara+Tutorials&rls=com.microsoft:en-au&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=1I7GGIE_en

I also have Softimage--a far better choice than LW! (You should have got Modo maybe---- designed by the ex LW team who wanted a modern app!)

Brian

Thanks for the feedback bwtr, I've seriously looked and I'm after as realistic as I can get with human figures.  I've have not see the same type of realism out of Carrara that I have seen in Lightwave.

If you can point me in the direction of human figures that look as realistic as the link i've provided...please do.

Thanks,
Philip

Where are the-- "Human Figures"-- that LW "has"?

(The Plugins--COSTLY?)

All sorts of  "figure" apps around---
Poser
Make Human
Qidam
http://www.google.com/search?q=3D+Human+figures&rls=com.microsoft:en-au&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=1I7GGIE_en
Does any full "3D" app better access FREE human figures better than Carrara?

Just a thought!

Brian

Old Carrara tutorials from years ago will not help the fact that Carrara does not render people as good as Lightwave does.  Maybe Carrara 9 will.

Hey Brian, again thanks for your input.  I spent $150 on the above site and I get unlimited downloads for a year of all the characters on the site (many more planned since the site has been open for a couple of weeks).  For the money I've spent on V4, M4, and of course any new characters I spent well over $150 after actually downloading the figures at Ir-models I can say they are way more realistic than anything I had in Poser 7 or DAZ.  So to me it was not as costly as what I have spent over a years time at DAZ.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing DAZ characters or any other character designed for Poser, but I'm just pointing out that I'm moving to the next level and sharing with everybody why and what else is out there.

Hey ShawnDriscoll, after almost a month with LW I couldn't agree with you more!

For anybody else who wants to reach that new level of realism with 3d characters, check out CGtalk, Newtek, and the above site I've mentioned.

Thank you both!

Enjoy your lightwave then, glad you found something you were looking for a prebuilt model, scene lights that gives you the results you want.  All done now in the Carrara Forums?  Take care

They are all tools.. different costs, different learning levels.  just like I have seen Howie do some amazing scenes in Carrara that got some good accolades at cgsociety.  That being said.. Glad you found something that floats your boat...

without getting into a flame war I have to say I just don;t understand this mentality. If you've found a tool that you like better than Carrara and better suits you're needs, more power to you. BUT why do you feel the need to come into a CARRARA forum and basically diss the program and be so crass as to "invite" people to "move up" to your new toy? Or is this just a not to subtle way to advertise this new figure store site? Either way it seems a bit unnecessay, if not down right rude.

Glad you like Lightwave, there are plenty of Lightwave forum out there, Hope you find one you with people that feel the same... soon! Have a great time.

I'm not dissing anything, I am a Carrara user since Carrara 5 and pointing out in my experience I found lightwave and figures designed for Lightwave to look more realistic than anything I've seen in Carrara.  Are we not allowed as Carrara users to point out other options on a Carrara forum?  I see a lot of posts where people compare Carrara to other tools and I check them out each time.  I like the idea of being open minded about other options and since I am a Carrara user (you can check my gallery if you don't believe me).

One more thing, I find it rude that you would even insinuate that I maybe trying to advertise someone else's figure store...should I counter with maybe you are working for DAZ?

The Vue forum behaves the same way.  It always smells of urine there when vendors start their pissing contests.

I'm beginning to see that Shawn...  :)  I got a few emails from fellow Carrara users that thanked me for the information....that's what I thought forums were for....but looks like I stepped on some toes.  Ah well...

Quote - One more thing, I find it rude that you would even insinuate that I maybe trying to advertise someone else's figure store...

Take another  look at your first post - that's exactly what you did.  Getting defensive when it's pointed out doesn't change the fact.

OK, real simple, I'm a Carrara user who bought Lightwave and also a very satisified customer of Ir-Models LW figures....if that's promoting a product I am satisfied with..so be it.   I guess I promoted Newtek as well....I guess the countless posts on promoting DAZ figures and Carrara I've made in the past is promoting a product...I guess people finding issue with me pointing out being happy with another product as a CARRARA user is actually them promoting a product....I guess it depends on what product we promote....I get it now.

A side note...I've gotten a couple email from Carrara users who were glad I created the post....

If you don't like the post....skip it....

I've test driven the new Lamborghini and after studying the owner's manual and of course taking a spin around town...I just bought a Gallardo.  I've worked on trying to drive as fast as I could with my Ford Tauraus with some degree of sucess, but after zipping down Main Street in my new Lambo, and being blown away by what is possible in an Italian spyder...I'm sold!

Ford just does not seem to have the sex appeal and power that Lamborghini has and of course the Gallardo doesnt seem as crappy as the Taurus.

Laughs... that was great analogy Klebnor, but I don't think he gets it.    I agree those are fabulous models, highly detailed which I think would render with the appropriate texture tweeks lighting scene setup in a variety of packages amazingly, they happen to be done in lightwave.   I have seen other though not available to buy done in other products as well.   While he does have some points yeah there probably aren't as many tutorials as Lightwave, and? so? there arn't as many Carrara users as Lightwave, oh yeah its a fraction of the cost. 

I kinda hope this thread dies, perhaps another one that says simply wow look at these (I saw a thread like that for this site), I am gonna give lightwave a go, because this is what I need, and thats it. (or perhaps just wow look at these and thats it).

It would have been better as the other posts I have seen about that site, was wow look how cool, detailed and wonderful 'insert website' models are, they are for lightwave.  bottom line? who cares, I do enjoy seeing the possibilities.  I am glad he found what he needed,  it happens to required a different tool.  Thats what the software is, tools.  You get what suits your needs, time, budget, goals.  He also makes some blanket statements which gets people's hackles up.  chuckles I could tell you the bugs in lighwave, and maya and various others having ran the IT dept for a large game development company. 

I don't mind him sharing the link, though I had seen it before, its the bit of dumping he did then it got into a pissing contest and everyone loses.  I look at that site as a challenge to learn more,  to go "hmmm" how did they do that, while it would be nice to disassemble the scene, light, texture, models.  

Carrara fits where I am at, at this moment.  Just like I bought Howie's scene's for some of the same reason, looking at his posting of the challenges at cgsociety made me go, wow Carrara can do some awsome things, a step up a notch.  When I get there and need something more then I will re-evaluate. 

So thanks for sharing the link.  I agree some phenominal renders.

Oops I wanted to add for those doing photo-realistic textures it appears the model texture had its basis from 3d.sk I had got to thinking I had seen this face before.

Warning these are reference photo's on the site and there may be nudity.

a page full from search of this particular lady http://www.3d.sk/index.php?id=10&thumbnail=sm&gender=Woman&age=18-20&body=Face&body_type=Athletic&race=&special=&poses=&emotions=&weapons=&animals=&videos=&premade=&clothes=&clothes_type=&sid=&sf=p&mi=1&mv=1&bs=1&bp=1&rws=4&cr=44&rl=0

If that didn't work here is one of the face
http://www.3d.sk/index.php?id=10&search_query=&action=load&do=gallerydet&pid=170372&cr=44&rl=16

I think this is also her http://www.3d.sk/index.php?id=10&search_query=&action=load&do=gallerydet&thumbnail=sm&&pid=169360&cr=13&rl=0

there are bazillian pictures so not sure on that last one.

Another site I saw linked that had good references you might be able to use

http://fineart.sk/ (which has a number of links on it and some samples)

So if someone here is interested in this type of reference, Though I am know it would require quiet a bit of work to complete a full texture even from the references.  Not to mention onto a model and getting it all put together, lighting scene etc.  But in case someone wanted a starting point.

Carrara can't render human skin all that great yet.

Oh I get it alright, its actually a bad analogy because if you want to compare prices try comparing it to a $4,000 program like Max 9 not a $900.00 program light LW...try a different car.

Xerxes002, I think Carrara is a close second to LW and in my book...way better than Vue.  My point is and has always been that i have not seen the type of human realism in Carrara that I have seen in LW especially by one of the top rated artist at CGtalk.  I've played around with his character Janna and she's way more realistic than anything I have seen or done myself in Carrara...plain and simple....  I'm just sharing the info with fellow Carrara artists...what you do with the info is up to you.  If you happy with Carrara cool, if not and you think that LW offers better more realistic tools for making realistic humans...there ya go!

I'm holding on the Hex, because so far the modeling portion of LW...though more powerful is not as easy as Hex.  The rendering and lighting in LW IMHO is better.

Good point by the way on the 3d.sk, but the textures dont look very detailed...the detail comes from the modeling in Zbrush (displacement maps)...maybe the face is modeled after one of the 3d.sk girls.

I just checked out the lady on the 3d.sk and she looks alot like the Janna model on the Ir-model site that I downloaded...see link.  What's interesting is the textures that come with the figure are very simple...not highly detailed like what I am familiar with....with V4 Elite.

http://www.ir-models.com/product_info.php?products_id=37

See textures at bottom of page.  Site contains nudity!  They look like watercolor paintings, but with the lighting and displacement maps they end up looking realistic....

I think you nailed it....I just rendered her face in LW and I think we have a positive ID

The models on that site, combined with Lightwave, might be right for those only interested in rendering nude females at a superior level of realism. I guess you could make all her clothing yourself in Lightwave, but then you’d have to make some of the figures too if you wanted to fill your world with more than just nude females of one type. Carrara is probably best for those who seek a level of quality with a wider range of pre-fab products and a minimum of effort.

Humm,

I've held off getting back into this thread but I think I see the problem now. It's not a comparrison between Carrara and Lightwave but rather a comparrison of Pre-Made content. I suppose since Lightwave is and older and MUCH broader used program than Carrara it's only natural the ther is more content out there that can be purchased and dorpped inot the program to give good results. That;s not the same as comparing Carrara to Lightwave. I'm sure that in the right hands Carrara can be made to create realistic renders, in fact I've sen some that are pretty awesome, but that;s not to say there are a lot of perfected pre-made content out there. Carrara's still "youn ge" in that respect but seems to be "growing: lately. Remember the Programs are just tools, and it;s the craftsman that makes the tools work...Remember even the DAZ content for Carrara is a realitively new field and will no doubt improve as time goes on.  I'm sure that you'll eventually see content of the same caliber for Carrara, as soon as it skilled craftsmen see the user base is large enough to make it profitable to do the work. In the meantime Carrara, like Lightwave in it;s earlier years, is dependant on it's users to build much of their own content...

If I uspet you the OP by calling you rude I'm sorry, but I still don;t see the need to post to a a Carrara forum in a manner that is basically saying "this program isn;t good enough and as soon as you all reach my level you;ll want to move to (fill in the program name) and be able to turn out really good work". If you were just pointing to a site with good content for another program, and saying "I wish there was something of this quality out there I could buy for Carrara" or "How could I get these results in Carrara" that would be one thing, but why even bother to make a post that is basically an attack on the program that the forum is centered on? 

I've been with Lightwave since 7.5 and Carrara since 3.  To someone who wants to learn 3D you won't find more tutorials, books, and videos then with Lightwave.  Its a professional program so what you learn can easily be transfered to other professional studio apps.

BTW, Jeff Lew dropped using Animation Master  to produce the latest Killer Bean movie.

Ringo.

Without changing her or the camera at all, can you import both the camera and her into one of Howie's outdoor scenes and use the same render settings you used here?  Leave out your lighting though and just use Howie's.

Bottom line:  if you can get a deal on Lightwave, get it!  Both Carrara and Lightwave will work well together.  You'll be able to import models into each other and work with them.

Thats a Carrara Render right Ringo?

Wow, this thread is still going on and we get a fantastic couple of renders to boot!  I still use Carrara actually for some scene creation and then bring it into lightwave...I'm still learning but I love it so far!  As far as premade content...kind of exactly what the post has been about...I just found it easier for me to turn out something more realistic in Lightwave using premade content.  I wanted to share that with fellow Carrara users...since I am one myself...thus this thread was created in a Carrara forum not like a Poser forum. 

I was excited and if it came off as offensive...hey my apologies.

I still think Hex is a better modeler than LW, and if Hex ever gets improved so it can handle complex geometry without crashing...I think its hard to beat. 

As far as Carrara is concerned, I'm still keeping up with it...and I hope it gets the attention it deserves...for the price its hard to beat.

*I'm a carrara user, poser user, vue user, C4D user and occasional dazstudio user too.  I found this thread extremely interesting.  I think it was  a most appropriate informative post.
the more 3D tools the better.
Love esther

I have never tried LW, I've tried a few other programs out there other than Hex, Carrara and Daz (I have all three) though they didn't do me much good considering the trial periods weren't long enough for me to do more than git a nip at an idea of what each can do.

I've been working with C6 Pro just for a few days, I had C3DE-which worked well enough though both have the same issues (or the USER has the same issues ;) ) with lighting.  Everything looks freakin' plastic unless I use one of the set HDRI lighting or GI.  I add in lights and PLASTIQUE!  Not to mention importing a scene for me is an issue (I'll be trying just importing the figure/pose from Daz and leave everything else for after the fact and see if that works.).  Again, more than likely user idiocy.

Eh, still going through links on tutorials and such-hopefully soon I can see if I can get more understood and done.

Quote - I've been working with C6 Pro just for a few days, I had C3DE-which worked well enough though both have the same issues (or the USER has the same issues ;) ) with lighting.  Everything looks freakin' plastic unless I use one of the set HDRI lighting or GI.  I add in lights and PLASTIQUE!

Poser and DAZ use similar shading models, which are in turn a lot different from some of the shader options in Carrara. After importing, a lot of the shading is going to look funny. You might try turning the highlights down (change them from Color to Value) and turn the shininess value up (that spreads the "hot spot" of the light out a little bit, making the material look less hard).

There's such a wealth of options in Carrara shaders that I feel like I'll still be learning new things with it for years.

Quote - > Quote - I've been working with C6 Pro just for a few days, I had C3DE-which worked well enough though both have the same issues (or the USER has the same issues ;) ) with lighting.  Everything looks freakin' plastic unless I use one of the set HDRI lighting or GI.  I add in lights and PLASTIQUE!

Poser and DAZ use similar shading models, which are in turn a lot different from some of the shader options in Carrara. After importing, a lot of the shading is going to look funny. You might try turning the highlights down (change them from Color to Value) and turn the shininess value up (that spreads the "hot spot" of the light out a little bit, making the material look less hard).

There's such a wealth of options in Carrara shaders that I feel like I'll still be learning new things with it for years.

Jack, you've just become my favorite pirate!  Thank you for the tip; I'll put that to good use and hopefully have a C6 render to post in a few days.  Years, and years of learning here.  Oi. 

So much freakin' fun!

Ringo's impressive render was done in Carrara. There's a thread over on DAZ showing that render and he has some settings as well. Do a search on Wet Lips - I think that was the thread.

Thanks Esther!

 If you can't get realistic human renders out of Carrara you're not doing it right.
There are 4 things that will determine the level of realism;

The mesh
The textures
The lighting
The render settings

The only thing that may differ in any of those between Carrara and Lightwave would be the Render settings.

For any advanced shader techniques there are inexpensive plug-ins for Carrara like deeper and Shader Ops.
Other than that, it's all there.
You just need to know how to use it.

Carrara's biggest drawback is the lack of up to date tutorials and tutorials that go over anything but the basics.

Quote -  If you can't get realistic human renders out of Carrara you're not doing it right.
There are 4 things that will determine the level of realism;

The mesh
The textures
The lighting
The render settings

The only thing that may differ in any of those between Carrara and Lightwave would be the Render settings.

For any advanced shader techniques there are inexpensive plug-ins for Carrara like deeper and Shader Ops.
Other than that, it's all there.
You just need to know how to use it.

Carrara's biggest drawback is the lack of up to date tutorials and tutorials that go over anything but the basics.

I agree-on everything in this quote.  Which is why I ask. :)  I've been looking for tutorials, books or online...with little results unless I want to shell out more money.  Can't...so.  Trial and error it is!  Hopefully, that will change soon!

Quote -  If you can't get realistic human renders out of Carrara you're not doing it right.
There are 4 things that will determine the level of realism;

The mesh
The textures
The lighting
The render settings

A lot of people are not doing it right then.  If only one Carrara user can do it for just one rendered scene, and no one else can, is it the software or the user to blame?  I'm assuming there are a lot of Carrara users.  I don't know how many of them are even interested in rendering as good as Ringo's (one hit wonder).

 I agree on the lack of tutorials with Carrara.  There are several things I find a bit frustrating about Carrara.  The main issue is the shaders area.  There are lots of ways to create subtle shaders within Carrara, but they aren't always blatantly obvious.  Unlike Daz Studio which basically has presets for things like Metal and Skin, Carrara has none of this.  When I import a scene into Carrara, it seems to always turns specularity to 100%.  So, you get this tiny pinpoint specular highlight...even with Daz content! Not only is this frustrating, it's time consuming to fix it each and every time.  

Of course, once you get all of the shaders perfect, you can easily reload that saved file and work with it again and possibly apply the shaders to another figure later.  And that brings up another point. Carrara needs a way to allow easy storage and application of specific in-shader settings like Glossiness, Specularity, Bump maps, etc.  So that you can easily store sub-shader settings and apply them to only 'skin' objects, for example.  I believe you may be able to save them to files, but it really should be a palette of these user defined presets inside Carrara.

Carrara's renderer is quite capable of producing high quality images.  The main problem is in setting up the shaders to get it to do it.  Can it produce what Lightwave can?  Perhaps, but I have no experience with such a test.

As for another example of an issue, (and perhaps one of the plugins fixes this issue) the bigger you make a specular highlight, the more diffused it becomes (doesn't have a crisp edge).  I guess Daz felt that the bigger it gets, the less tight it should be.  I don't like this about Carrara's specularity settings.  There should be a setting to allow for tight specular highlights no matter how big or small the specular highlight is.  Certain materials require very tight, but larger, specular highlights.  If there is a way to fix this issue, I've yet to find it.  If it's not possible, then these are the kinds of issues that will prevent perfectly realistic scenes out of Carrara.

--
Brian

Hey Sub7th, I saw your tutorial on the fruit bowl and it was awesome, how about a tutorial on realistic human figures in Carrara?

Quote -  Here is a render out of lightwave I did using the figure and scene I mentioned at the beginning of the post.  I made some changes and messed with the lights.  The figure I am using has a texture map, epidermal map, subdermal map, blood map, bump, spec....  The lighting in Lightwave is superior in my opinion.   With a lot more work you probably could produce similar results in Carrara.  It's a great tool (Carrara) I just hope DAZ brings it forward. 

I actually like the lighting that comes from Carrara.  To me it is just as good as Lightwave's lighting.  The main issue is that Carrara supports limited numbers of sub shaders to which you can attach maps.  You mentioned that that render required 6 maps.  You can't even really load all 6 of those maps in Carrara.  There is no such thing as epidermal, blood and subdermal maps in Carrara.  It just doesn't support that.  This is one of the main issues I've had with Poser and Daz's products.  In fact, most 3D apps don't support enough surface shader maps to render realistic looking skin.  They simply do not support enough texture maps.

Carrara does offer a mixer to add more and more things together in one sub shader.  But, adding maps together ultimately produces only one map for that sub-shader (specular, transparency, glow, etc) instead of actually producing multiple maps.  The limited nature of the number of maps leaves Carrara's results a bit flat.  Basically, Carrara needs more top level sub-shaders like epidermal, subdermal and blood maps and at least two or three specularity and bump maps to create more subtle surfaces.

Perhaps with Daz Studio Advanced, the new shader system will provide enough connectors to utilize this many maps and produce more realistic looking skin.  The problem is that Daz is so focused on Daz Studio that they're not actively improving what should be their flagship product, Carrara.  

--
Brian

I agree Brian, I hope DAZ puts more effort into Carrara, Its a great program, but it just currently doesnt support the maps needed for the kind of realism we see in LW, or Max.

Restif is the other Carrara user pulling off decent human figure renders.

See http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=85040

Yup, he does great work as well.  I'm testing 7.2 and I'm sitting here for about 15 minutes waiting for the lighting to calculate with SSS in Carrara.  I pulled the same render in LW which looks better in my opinion with V4 in 1/3 the time.....I don't know, it's probably just me. 

One thing I do wish DAZ would do is allow us to model the figure in the posed position like in LW.  I would be easy to make morphs and so forth like this in Carrara.

I know I might offend some folks...but I also wish DAZ would put all their efforts into Carrara and Hex...but that would be selfish on my part!  :)

SSS render time increases if your skin shader is procedural.  If you bake the skin texture first using Inagoni's Baker plugin, then SSS renders are way quicker.

Quote - One thing I do wish DAZ would do is allow us to model the figure in the posed position like in LW.  I would be easy to make morphs and so forth like this in Carrara.

While I don't work for Daz, I'd recommend that when you find things like this that you file an enhancement request for this change at bugs.daz3d.com.  I would also like to be ablle to model the figure posed.  It's a hassle to switch back and forth because of the character's placement in space changes.  So, you're constsantly readjusting the camera back and forth.  I'm not sure why they can't inherit the pose into the modeler.

Thanks.

--
Brian

One step ahead of ya commorancy, I had that request put into the bugs site a while back.  I totally agree, I thought DAZ was going to take care of this in 7.2 since it was at one time on the bug site as top priority.  I can export a posed figure as an obj file fine, but if you add any subdivision or smoothing in the modeling room forget it...it goes out in the 0 pose.  Even if you hit the animated button in the modeling room after subdivision and export...no dice 0 pose. 

Even if you stay in Carrara and you were able to model or create morphs while in the posed postion Carrara would be worth its weight in gold.

Thanks ShawnDriscoll!