This is done and the file is uploaded; I opted not to do the skirt because it occurs to me it's nearly the same as the swimsuit blank anyway.

Quote - > Quote - Oh good - mass-setting stuff like min shading rate is extremely easy, actor editor -> select actors -> Set, something like that takes about 20 seconds.

I know. Please feel free to do it for me every time I export a CR2 from D|S. :-P

Done (not sure if you were joking, but it's done).

Cool! I'll check those out when I get home.

(If I can manage to stay awake for long enough.)

I left the JCM deltas in, at least for my style of rigging conformers it doesn't bother me if they are there.  If towards the end of your development you really want them out, then I'll clean them out.

I think you're misunderstanding my point about editing the CR2s (or you do understand and I'm misinterpreting you). It's simple enough if it's only done once before distributing the file. But while I'm still fiddling with the JCMs, I might export a new CR2 every hour and occasionally upload it so that people can try it out. Those will not be perfect in every respect and aren't meant to be, they'll just serve the one purpose of showing off the JCMs.

I keep trying to point this out, because I don't want people to think I'm oblivious to critique. This is simply not a good time for working on the ultimate CR2 for distribution.

Quote - I left the JCM deltas in, at least for my style of rigging conformers it doesn't bother me if they are there.  If towards the end of your development you really want them out, then I'll clean them out.

Fair enough. No worries, I'll rip them out myself if they bother me.

wonders when people will start making "get a room" jokes

Quote - I think you're misunderstanding my point about editing the CR2s (or you do understand and I'm misinterpreting you).

No I understand you fine :) Like I said this is a low-priority issue and can wait til the end of development, it's not a big deal.

Maybe I'm just too tired. Are we absolutely sure humans don't hibernate?

edit: I just checked without the JCMs (removed from a copy of the CR2) - this is coming from the bone deformation only.  Each side the shoulder is moved downwards 70 degrees.

edit again just to be crystal clear: BUG IN POSER, NOT YOUR FAULT.

edit: maybe Smith Micro should pay Kuroyume to fix the goddamn symmetry bug

The Poser OpenGL preview always looks weird for me. My guess is that the developers didn't spend much time on finding good depth buffer settings. So for me, the preview's absolutely useless when determining pokethrough. Typically, it's that I see bad pokethrough in the preview when everything's fine in the render. But I wouldn't swear that it's never the other way round.

I hear what you're saying, I'll check this with a full render and be back shortly.

note that is with Smooth Polygons disabled

I'd suggest also Hair rig and gloves rig, if anyone is sick enough to try :)  Also an oddball one ... a centersetting pz2. It makes certain kinds of conversions easier.

As for removing JCM stuff ... if you have PoserFileEditor3 you can use the Filter to yank out all the morphs in one shot. very handy. However, that will leave any ERC statements in scale channels if there are any, which is a good thing as it makes incorporating scaling in conformers simpler.

odf
Oh I don't mind ... I didn't expect a reply anyways :) I rambled a bit... and since I didnt read this whole thread I'm sure I must have repeated some things people have said already

Lyrra

What would you expect for a hair rig, from hip to head?  And for gloves from hip to hands, or what?

Quote - Not good.

note that is with Smooth Polygons disabled

Darn!

Another idea: same pose, but just load the suit without conforming it. Do you see the same effect?

pjz

hair - hip, abdo, chest, neck, head  (presuming she has all those bits)

that one will get a fair bit of use, especially if anyone makes a magnet hair conversion kit for her :)

and gloves is pretty much the full torso, plus neck  and all the hand joints. That way you can make a regular Top donor too, without the fingers.

You probably know this already but for other people reading along :)

In general the rigging rule is from Hip, down the hierarchy tree to the bodypart you need, plus one more.   So for a bracelet on the right wrist on v4 I'd have hip, abdo, chest, rcollar, rshoulder, rforearm, to my bracelet location and plus one more adds rhand

Lyrra

Quote - Same test in Cinema 4D with the figure imported via Kuroyume0161's interPoser Pro, perfect symmetry.

edit: maybe Smith Micro should pay Kuroyume to fix the goddamn symmetry bug

So that proves there's no asymmetry in the rig itself, right?

Also note these are rendered with the Right and Left cameras, no perspective distortion is going on here (I thought of that).

Quote - > Quote - Same test in Cinema 4D with the figure imported via Kuroyume0161's interPoser Pro, perfect symmetry.

edit: maybe Smith Micro should pay Kuroyume to fix the goddamn symmetry bug

So that proves there's no asymmetry in the rig itself, right?

Yeah I checked your numbers looking directly at the CR2, and they are numerically symmetrical all over the rig, this is really not your fault.

Quote -
PS: Using hipHandle instead of hip to rotate the figure should work until the problem is solved.

yes, but using a unmodified pose made for another figure will move/rotate the hip and not the hiphandle, this is how i have found this, the xrot of the pose was something like -13320, 37 full rotations, the original figure was ok, but Antonia was looking a little damaged.

Quote - > Quote -

PS: Using hipHandle instead of hip to rotate the figure should work until the problem is solved.

yes, but using a unmodified pose made for another figure will move/rotate the hip and not the hiphandle, this is how i have found this, the xrot of the pose was something like -13320, 37 full rotations, the original figure was ok, but Antonia was looking a little damaged.

Hmm, true that. I guess that's another reason for eventually re-enabling the hip rotations. Personally, I prefer to do my poses from scratch, but I know lots of people like to use the canned ones.

I don't think you should worry terribly much about how poses for other figures apply to yours, the whole "universal poses" feature tends to mash up a rig anyway when applying a pose for a different figure from what it was saved for.

Quote - I don't think you should worry terribly much about how poses for other figures apply to yours, the whole "universal poses" feature tends to mash up a rig anyway when applying a pose for a different figure from what it was saved for.

I'm not worrying. But since people will apply poses from other figures, I shouldn't make it harder for them than I have to.

People use other poses as a short-cut to the pose they want.  Why re-invent the wheel when you have mid-poly wheel, that can fit, and then the person doing the posing, knocks off the rest of the corners himself.  All they are , are foundations to build your own pose on.  Even poses INTENDED for a particular figure can be wonky, so NO poses should ever be used AS IS.

Canned poses are like like canned spam..... They're neither tasty nor appealing, but might keep ya going in a real pinch, IMO. :laugh: But you can't live on them!

pjz99: I tried to apply one of your blanks - the bodysuit - to tlc's capris and found that the pose hadn't been zeroed out, so they didn't conform correctly with my "file editing" approach to conforming clothes. Maybe that doesn't make a difference when applying the blank from within Poser, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

A few things I learned while trying to get the conformingized pants to deform nicely:

• It might be worthwhile to really fine-tune the inclusion/exclusion parameters, both angles and spheres, for the thigh rotations some more. It's tricky to do this right in such a tight space, but with D|S one has a bit more control than in Poser, and it would really help a lot.

• Where there's enough room, the inclusion zones shouldn't be fitted too tight to the body. I saw this was the case for the thigh x rotation, the effect of which was that after copying the zones to the pants, some vertices were missed and the zones had to be adjusted.

• Quite of few of the spheres have some of their rotation angles set to values close to 180 or -180 degrees. That shouldn't be a problem per se, but if there's some wacky miscalculation of sphere positions going on in Poser, that's the areas where I'd suspect it. So it might be worthwhile to flip the spheres around for the shoulder joint to have 'nicer' rotation angles and see if that fixes the asymmetry problem.

may want a glove rig

Edit - Lyrra beat me too it 'cause I didn't notice the second page of new posts...  Hair rig would also be very useful..  /agree

@Fisty and Shante:  It took me a bit longer but now I found the time to render a large version of the banner showing Antonia with your dress, Fisty (and a little link to you to say thank you for your work)!

Off of that: No, I am not sleeping, I keep on reading and plan on something nice for Antonia as soon as I am done with the commercial work I'll have to do.

Edit: Upps... here's the link to the image

Saw it and thought its lovely, Saintfox - I like what you've done with the dress! I found the dress (thank you fisty!) ... can't wait to play with it!

Thank you!  <3

You guys did really good!  Sorry I missed all this.  Moving sucks. :laugh:  Everyone knows that, but I said it! :lol:

Foxy, you do good work.  WHO did the texture?  Those are the most realistic looking feet I ever saw!

Hmm, I just spent a couple of hours or so trying to come up with pants-friendlier joint zones for the thighs, and as always when I try to "fix" phantom3D's rig, things start out looking really promising, but eventually I end up making them much worse. So I'll just go with the "never change a winning team" line and leave them as they are. It was probably quite a bit of hubris to think I could create a figure that one could make conforming clothes for without fine-tuning the zones.

I did notice another things though, namely that there are still some small asymmetries in the zone setups for the central body parts. Those I will of course fix. I don't think that will solve the problems that pjz99 described, but at least it should avoid adding more trouble due to the way the figure is set up.

JOELGLAINE: that's exactly what I thought about the feet. The texture is by SaintFox herself, and she did a stunning job.

Pants are just problematic, don't worry about it.  The figure has a butt crack and pants do not.  G-strings will work perfectly, garments that do not follow the geometry exactly will require extra work from the user/content creator, pretty much all figures are like that. 

Anything You want me to work on? The bug pjz99 is talking about, I don't know how you would get rid of that, it seems to be a Poser thing, every figure I have checked has it somewhere, even M4 so I don't know. The shoulder isn't the best spot for it to show up though. I wonder if I re make the rig and transfer all the settings to  the new one, it may show up in a more auspicious spot, like a finger or something.

Yeah it's very frustrating, it's not your fault.  There is a pattern because once it appears it's 100% reproducible, it may have to do with the order the bones are created in the CR2.  I suspect if you tried to redo the rig with a different order the bug might pop up elsewhere, but you'd really have no way of knowing until you were completely done.  Screaming profanity at it doesn't help, I've already tried that.  A lot.

But its better to get it out of your system than to try to bottle it up inside ;) 

^^ Very pointy. ^^

I think your theory about the way Poser flips the falloff zones 180 degrees from left to right is heading in the right direction.  D/S does not do that, I wonder if Smith Micro will fix it this time?  I could try doing the bones in a different order, if it would just show up in someplace unimportant like one of the body handles. I wonder if I could figure out a way to predict where and when it shows up...............then religate it to an extra bone , and delete it when finished.  

I have always had the feeling that Poser has some kind of AI written into the programing, the way it does arbitrary things sometimes. :)

I'm sure there is a pattern because I can force this kind of bug e.g. when adding bones to V4's chest, Sydney's chest, V4's hip, or bones in various places in clothing rigs.  When you have this bug pop up 10 times in a row while trying to set up a rig it seems pretty clear there's a pattern, I just don't know for sure what it is.  I sure wish they'd fix it (and not make you buy Poser 8 to get the fix.)

I took the liberty of downloading Antonia to play with her a bit. Here is a left/right image of the issue I see with her arm proportions. The left arm is stock. Both posed the same. As you can see, on the right arm I lengthened the upper arm to 120% on x.  That aligns the elbow with the waist, dropping the hand mid thigh, and makes the upper and lower arm the same length as it is in most people. If you check various body proportion charts, you will find that as a common measurement.

I just figured a visual thingy might make it easier to understand what I was mentioning :)

The double hip thing is very interesting. I've been rolling her up in a ball to see how the jointing works out :)

Lyrra

HI Lyrra, The hip2 is the main thing I did differently than standard rigging. I hope you like it. I found it most useful as a way to make adjustments to the hip after posing with the regular hip and IK. It takes half of the X bend burden off of the regular actors involved, and allows for some more realistic posing.

The hip handle is really just there as a great little thing to grab onto and move the entire figure around.

odf's super job with the topology of the figure made it a pleasure to work with, I think with his cascading JCM's and once all gets sorted out to where it's all working smoothly together, it will make for a different and exciting figure.

Happy to have had the chance to add something to the project.

Cheers,
Mike.

phantom3D, pjz99: I don't think trying to rebuild the rig from scratch is a good approach to this problem. It will just show up at a different place. Since Poser has now memory of how you built the rig, all the relevant information must be in the CR2. The best approach to this would be to try and isolate the problem: find the smallest possible skeleton with the least functionality (such as bulges, JCMs and inner/outer spheres) enabled that still shows this problem.

Actually, I'm still not convinced that it's not just a local problem. So my first attempt would be to disable the inner/outer spheres for the shoulder joints and see if the asymmetries disappear. If they're still there, we know it's not the spheres. Next, I'd look at the angles and see if changing them in various ways solves the problem. And so on... It may take a long time, but isolating the problem might not only indicate ways to work around it, but will also increase the chances that SM will eventually fix it.

Lyrra: We've noticed the problem with her proportions a while ago. Her "wingspan" is significantly shorter than her total height. So either her arms are too short, or her legs and parts of her torso too long. I've been a bit reluctant to change this in the base mesh because it would require adjusting a large number of joint positions.

I have to admit that this bugs me, though, so if it's just about increasing the length of the upper arm, I might give it a try after all. Ideally, one would write a little script that reads a CR2 with scaling applied (or works directly on the figure from within Poser or D|S), moves the joint centers according to that scaling and resets all the scale factors to 100%. I'm probably not obsessive enough to write that script, so I might just do a few calculations and put in the new positions by hand.

I agree Lyrra's little adjustment is easy and makes her proportions look a lot more normal.

Quote - I agree Lyrra's little adjustment is easy and makes her proportions look a lot more normal.

I think she'd still be a bit on the superhero side with her head-to-body ratio. But the head size should be fairly easy to adjust without breaking any clothes. Not quite sure about conforming hair, though, but I think (hope) if the hair inherits the figure's hair rig, it should behave reasonably well, too.

I meant about the upper arm

Quote - phantom3D, pjz99: I don't think trying to rebuild the rig from scratch is a good approach to this problem. It will just show up at a different place. Since Poser has now memory of how you built the rig, all the relevant information must be in the CR2. The best approach to this would be to try and isolate the problem: find the smallest possible skeleton with the least functionality (such as bulges, JCMs and inner/outer spheres) enabled that still shows this problem.

Actually, I'm still not convinced that it's not just a local problem. So my first attempt would be to disable the inner/outer spheres for the shoulder joints and see if the asymmetries disappear. If they're still there, we know it's not the spheres. Next, I'd look at the angles and see if changing them in various ways solves the problem. And so on... It may take a long time, but isolating the problem might not only indicate ways to work around it, but will also increase the chances that SM will eventually fix it.

odf I strongly doubt there is any action you could realistically take that would work around this.  I can tell you for certain it isn't caused by JCMs (they were removed from the figure).  "Local problem", well, someone else is welcome to perform the same tests with a reference prop.  I've already been trying to motivate Smith Micro to fix this problem since I first realized what was going on (ticket# 090318-000770 3/18/2009).  Has anyone else reported this to Smith Micro?