Just wondering. POser is good, i don't know why they wouldn't teach it.

IN fact, i think schools should start having Poser degrees. There's alot you can learn and do with poser. 

Poser isn't used in profitable mainstream CG game design. Game companies hire people who create original, low-poly content, using 3dsMax, Maya or XSI to animate the characters. If I were earning a degree for CG games and they wasted time on Poser I would want my money back.

The main connection between Poser and computer games is that some Poser merchants use the creations of game designers as “inspiration” for product design.  

Yeah, Poser is kinda snubbed by modeling "elites".

Laurie

"Poser isn't used in profitable mainstream CG game design."

check out the highly profitable Big Fish company who use a lot of rendered poser content in games such as Azada or in cut scenes on games like Atlantis Patrol. their market share of the 'Casual' gamers is huge.

There are great modelers creating content for Poser. Stonemason is as elite as it gets, but I suspect he wouldn't have time for Poser if he didn't live half a world away from Hollywood. It is much more profitable to work in special effects or game design than it is to create products for Poser. 

The need for low-poly, original content in computer games, optimized for game engines and in the proper format rules out the use of Poser. This is not a value judgment. You don't use a hammer to turn a screw. 

Yeah- poser content is almost allways of to high a quality and polygon count for gameing. Even for long(er) animations. Maps of 4000 pxls is often 400 times larger then game textureing.

Another thing is the way we UV map. Maps laid out with fill areas are more complexe then square mapping.  Increasing processing and rendering time. Which is a BIG DEAL in gameing.

Add into all that- Poser is not a modeling program- every thing (for the most part) has to be bought, with a limited liecense. One copy per machine thing :)

Also, to use poser you really have to have nude characters at some point in the process- even if just to dress and change outfits. Not to mention textureing.

Just imagine what the new age puritians would do with THAT in school.

A Poser Degree!!?

I got mine at GEEPS! :)
Thanks Doc!

 If poser was worth nothing to these professionals, then why is Smith Micro charging about 300 dollars for Poser??? I think it has value!!!

Match that up to the $5000 to $10000 per seat they are charging for the higher end programs. I have used Poser professionally but for the most part it is far too limited to be of any real use to someone who is serious about movies or games. It is for the most part a hobby program. Smith Mircro is charging $300 because that's all they can get for it.

check out the highly profitable Big Fish company who use a lot of rendered poser content in games such as Azada or in cut scenes on games like Atlantis Patrol.

 I was thinking more along the lines of the 3d immerse, multi-million dollar games for xbox 360 and the like. 'Big Fish,' despite the name, seems just out of the garage by comparison.  
 

Quote - check out the highly profitable Big Fish company who use a lot of rendered poser content in games such as Azada or in cut scenes on games like Atlantis Patrol.

 I was thinking more along the lines of the 3d immerse, multi-million dollar games for xbox 360 and the like. 'Big Fish,' despite the name, seems just out of the garage by comparison.  
 

check their profits sometime.

they are one of the biggest 'Casual Gaming' company's along with Popcap and gamehouse. the estimated casual market was, for 2007, $2.25bn*. thats not counting the game types you mentioned. 

these are quick to learn, quick play, quick turnover games that sell for about 6.99 a pop. they are turning them out by the day.....

*sourced from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/7514247.stm , more here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14705911/ - estimating $953 million for this year being posted by BigFish alone. and thats during this downturn...

$953 million for a puzzle game company? That's remarkable! I wonder how many billions the mainstream game companies are making...  

Yeah, one could do As fun or even funner games or movies in Poser with no problem.

The most important is the idea/story, not the graphics.

Companies who bash poser do it cause they want to control the industry/ 

*The most important is the idea/story, not the graphics. *

Yes, but you have conceeded that better graphics are found elsewhere. 

Companies who bash poser do it cause they want to control the industry.

I don't know of any company that wastes its time bashing Poser. Some people who claim to be professionals bash Poser on various boards, but they must not be busy professionals. 

Quote - $953 million for a puzzle game company? That's remarkable! I wonder how many billions the mainstream game companies are making...  

to quote :

By 2010, the worldwide video game market should grow to $46.5 billion, at an average 11.4% compound annual rate, global consultancy PricewaterhouseCoopers predicts.*

now thats a 2006 figure. looking for a more uptodate estimate, but that sounds about right from the articles I've been reading.

*http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/jun2006/id20060623_163211.htm

also, it's estimated that World of Warcraft is taking in *$149 million a Month.

Anyone remember the Movie called The One starring Jet Li? they used Poser to set up the stunts before they filmed them, the Poser stuff may not show up on your screen but it was there & helped make the film possible.

So, if game companies haven't seen the potential of Poser, it's more like a lack of imagination on their part, than any inherent limitation on Poser.

Gaming schools probably won't use Poser.  That being said, a few years ago, I taught a "Beginner's 3D Art" course at the community college for those "Community Courses" that you always get literature on, and the only thing in there worth doing is the pottery clases :)  The class wasn't that big of a hit, even using DAZ Studio, probably because of the super-conservative nature of my students.  After working on lighting and textures with the primitives, and moving to the humans, I got a lot of drop-outs, because they were expected to load the V3 (at the time) that came with the program, and THEN the clothing.  Looking back, I kind of chuckle, because this was AFTER studying the Vitruvian Man and using some nude photos of actual humans to show off musculature and bone structure.  Ah, humans.  Never ceasing to amaze ;)

People dropped out because they didn't want, and/or were ashamed to play around with a naked woman??  Heck, that's the thing that attracted me to Poser in the 1st place!!
DPH

So, if game companies haven't seen the potential of Poser, it's more like a lack of imagination on their part, than any inherent limitation on Poser.

Low poly or not, if you're a multi-million/billion dollar game company, there’s no reason not to build your own humans. Unlike much of the Poser community, the professional 3d artists aren’t restricted by modeling limitations and can easily create figures with optimized topology, in proper format for the game engine. Also, there’s no need to come to terms with Smith Micro for the distribution of their geometry.  

Quote - Yeah, Poser is kinda snubbed by modeling "elites".

Laurie

Normally I would agree, but in this case (having done years of game design), that's not the problem. Firdtly, Poser just isn't cut out for game design modeling, unfortunally. Unless you want to have a game engine that runs 1fps, but I don't think that's the idea. Poser models are way to high poly.

Secondly the license agreement on most poser available figures and content forbid the usage in 3D game engines. You can create sprites, but not use the actual 3D model. Some content creators have their poser models available for usage in 3D game engines and such, but you need to buy a special license and pay a lot more for the models.

Poser would be very suitable for game engines if the licenses change, the models get low poly and poser would have directx model support. Until then Poser isn't suitable for being included in a degree for game design.

Also keep in mind that when we're talking low poly, a game designer is aiming at 2500-5000 polys at the most for a human model. The rest (vehicles, structures and so on) needs to be lower that. For Poser 10,000 polys is considered low poly, for a game engine that is consider way to high.

Quote - Here is my remapped version of the Poser 1 Nude Woman.  She is VERY low poly, and would be an excellent figure for Adult gaming, at least. 

How much polys is she?

Quote - So, if game companies haven't seen the potential of Poser, it's more like a lack of imagination on their part, than any inherent limitation on Poser.

Nope it's not their lack of imagination and not the inherent limitations, it's the license that is the showstopper.

If I remember rightly :) and I think I do, Poser was created in the first place to provide a posable human figure to be used as an artists refrerence :)  I think I'm about right on that one since I seem to remember buying it for just that reason, as I was a resonably accomplished airbrush artist at the time.

I suspect that it was never designed to do anything else in particular, though the industry that has grown up around it probably formed as people found ti more fun to do the work in Poser than actually transferring it to paper.

Thats how it got me going anyway :)  Is it a modelling application? no of course not.  Are its models designed to be used as game assetts? no again. 

Is it a creative tool to enable people of all ages and skill levels to express their creative side? 

Yes of course it is, and for that we are all very thankfull I am sure.  I am thankfull because it took me places I had never thought of,  got me learning skills I didnt imagine I could.

John

Quote - You don't use a hammer to turn a screw. 

And, even more to the point, if you're a professional, you don't use a hammer at all; you use a nail gun.

People, for the most part, do things that benefit themselves. That's not a condemnation of the human condition, it's just a generalization that's a useful tool in analyzing behavior.

So, some art school board is deciding what degrees to offer. Will they offer a degree in Poser? The answer is predicated on another question: will they get enough student's wanting the degree to make enough money to justify hiring the teachers, paying the janitors, and keeping the lights on?

So, now we need to ask, why would a student want to get a degree in Poser? Most of a schools money comes from students who want to use their degree to get a job. There will be a few who want to learn Poser because they love it, sure, but it's the job seekers that will give the school enough money to offer a degree.

So, now we need to ask, where would you get a job using Poser? I think we covered the gam industry pretty well, so let's look at special effects houses. I can tell you from the experience of talking to people in this industry that they are always running behind and have too much to do. They'll use anything they can get their hands on that will keep their heads above water. The software they use has to have the features they need, and the performance.

So, now we need to ask, what do these places need? They need models created, mapped, and textured. Poser doesn't help there. They need the models rigged, which we can do in Poser. For characters and animals, they need muscle deformers and skin objects (not really a strong suit of Poser, but you can fake it; slowly though). They need a lot of texturing options that are time consuming to create in Poser. Then they need to animate everything. Again, Poser can do this. But it's slower to do it than some other tools. Finally, you need to create 3D renders in layers, which is not an option in Poser, so you've got to move your animation to another software product, fix the rigging and the animation, and render it there, so you can do your compositing.

In the end, Poser doesn't have the speed or features to be used in creating final product for most film or television production. It's a great pre-vis tool, absolutely, but pre-vis isn't a big enough niche to create enough jobs to lure the prospective students in for a degree program that won't generate enough money.

There is no conspiracy. There's only so much money and time that people have to spend, and enough of them have chosen to use Maya, 3DS, Lightwave, C4D, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, that Poser doesn't fit in that particular pipe.

Now, that said, realize that school degrees really don't mean much, once you're on this side of the educational system (I'm 47, been out of school longer than I was in it). When I hire somebody, I honestly don't care where he went to school or how he did, unless that's all I've got to go on. What I really care about is whether the person can do the job, will be responsible, and so on. What's important is that you love what you do, and you have fun with it. If Poser is that thing for you, then ride off into the sunset knowing that you're doing what you love.

And if you run into somebody who slams Poser, ask him if he's gotten a lot of work lately. Real professionals are too busy to trash anything.

Quote - "You don't use a hammer to turn a screw. "

Unless its a Birmingham Screw :) you can only screw them in with a Birhmingham Screwdriver (err its a hammer) :)

John

Quote - Gaming schools probably won't use Poser.  That being said, a few years ago, I taught a "Beginner's 3D Art" course at the community college for those "Community Courses" that you always get literature on, and the only thing in there worth doing is the pottery clases :)  The class wasn't that big of a hit, even using DAZ Studio, probably because of the super-conservative nature of my students.  After working on lighting and textures with the primitives, and moving to the humans, I got a lot of drop-outs, because they were expected to load the V3 (at the time) that came with the program, and THEN the clothing.  Looking back, I kind of chuckle, because this was AFTER studying the Vitruvian Man and using some nude photos of actual humans to show off musculature and bone structure.  Ah, humans.  Never ceasing to amaze ;)

LOL...that's funny. I've been in art school since I'm 13 and we did nude studies EVEN THEN...LOL.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - Gaming schools probably won't use Poser.  That being said, a few years ago, I taught a "Beginner's 3D Art" course at the community college for those "Community Courses" that you always get literature on, and the only thing in there worth doing is the pottery clases :)  The class wasn't that big of a hit, even using DAZ Studio, probably because of the super-conservative nature of my students.  After working on lighting and textures with the primitives, and moving to the humans, I got a lot of drop-outs, because they were expected to load the V3 (at the time) that came with the program, and THEN the clothing.  Looking back, I kind of chuckle, because this was AFTER studying the Vitruvian Man and using some nude photos of actual humans to show off musculature and bone structure.  Ah, humans.  Never ceasing to amaze ;)

LOL...that's funny. I've been in art school since I'm 13 and we did nude studies EVEN THEN...LOL.

Laurie

It is, really.  I mean, seriously.  Their daughters saw more when changing their Barbie's clothes.  God forbid I teach them to texture.  Ooh, naughty bits!  

Then again, my class was made up of mostly pre-retirement aged conservative women in a very conservative town.  I was expecting some resistance, but I didn't expect them to drop a class they paid $100 to attend.  Needless to say, the class was not renewed.

Quote - > Quote - Gaming schools probably won't use Poser.  That being said, a few years ago, I taught a "Beginner's 3D Art" course at the community college for those "Community Courses" that you always get literature on, and the only thing in there worth doing is the pottery clases :)  The class wasn't that big of a hit, even using DAZ Studio, probably because of the super-conservative nature of my students.  After working on lighting and textures with the primitives, and moving to the humans, I got a lot of drop-outs, because they were expected to load the V3 (at the time) that came with the program, and THEN the clothing.  Looking back, I kind of chuckle, because this was AFTER studying the Vitruvian Man and using some nude photos of actual humans to show off musculature and bone structure.  Ah, humans.  Never ceasing to amaze ;)

LOL...that's funny. I've been in art school since I'm 13 and we did nude studies EVEN THEN...LOL.

Laurie

I know what you mean, we even had a nude male model for a life drawing class when I was at school (6th form at least, not how that translates wround the world)

I must be being slowly infected though, I did some video tutorials recently and worried about the nakedness of the model and really paused for thought when a tiny thumbnail of nakedness appeared in one of my texture directories.

:)

John

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Gaming schools probably won't use Poser.  That being said, a few years ago, I taught a "Beginner's 3D Art" course at the community college for those "Community Courses" that you always get literature on, and the only thing in there worth doing is the pottery clases :)  The class wasn't that big of a hit, even using DAZ Studio, probably because of the super-conservative nature of my students.  After working on lighting and textures with the primitives, and moving to the humans, I got a lot of drop-outs, because they were expected to load the V3 (at the time) that came with the program, and THEN the clothing.  Looking back, I kind of chuckle, because this was AFTER studying the Vitruvian Man and using some nude photos of actual humans to show off musculature and bone structure.  Ah, humans.  Never ceasing to amaze ;)

LOL...that's funny. I've been in art school since I'm 13 and we did nude studies EVEN THEN...LOL.

Laurie

I know what you mean, we even had a nude male model for a life drawing class when I was at school (6th form at least, not how that translates wround the world)

I must be being slowly infected though, I did some video tutorials recently and worried about the nakedness of the model and really paused for thought when a tiny thumbnail of nakedness appeared in one of my texture directories.

:)

John

Hmmm...6th form. That about 11, 12 or 13? Anyway, I actually went art school where we did, yes, live nude studies. But we would have NEVER done that in art class in normal, everyday school...LOL.

Nudity doesn't even phase me anymore, not even since I was little. American's however, are mostly a bunch of stuffed shirts about the whole thing ;o). I mean, the human body (to me anyway) is beautiful, not ugly, although some try to make it ugly ;o). Its a cultural thing, I suppose.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Gaming schools probably won't use Poser.  That being said, a few years ago, I taught a "Beginner's 3D Art" course at the community college for those "Community Courses" that you always get literature on, and the only thing in there worth doing is the pottery clases :)  The class wasn't that big of a hit, even using DAZ Studio, probably because of the super-conservative nature of my students.  After working on lighting and textures with the primitives, and moving to the humans, I got a lot of drop-outs, because they were expected to load the V3 (at the time) that came with the program, and THEN the clothing.  Looking back, I kind of chuckle, because this was AFTER studying the Vitruvian Man and using some nude photos of actual humans to show off musculature and bone structure.  Ah, humans.  Never ceasing to amaze ;)

LOL...that's funny. I've been in art school since I'm 13 and we did nude studies EVEN THEN...LOL.

Laurie

I know what you mean, we even had a nude male model for a life drawing class when I was at school (6th form at least, not how that translates wround the world)

I must be being slowly infected though, I did some video tutorials recently and worried about the nakedness of the model and really paused for thought when a tiny thumbnail of nakedness appeared in one of my texture directories.

:)

John

Hmmm...6th form. That about 11, 12 or 13? Anyway, I actually went art school where we did, yes, live nude studies. But we would have NEVER done that in art class in normal, everyday school...LOL.

Nudity doesn't even phase me anymore, not even since I was little. American's however, are mostly a bunch of stuffed shirts about the whole thing ;o). I mean, the human body (to me anyway) is beautiful, not ugly, although some try to make it ugly ;o). Its a cultural thing, I suppose.

Laurie

:) 6th form is 16 17 18 19 over here, elective years of school for advanced level classes :)

The whole nudity thing is fear pure and simple, as if the mere hint of nudity will inspire someone to commit apalling acts of self abuse or something.

Personally I think supressing it is a bad thing, and just covering up certain parts can make an image even more sensual and erotic so what the hey.

John.

Quote - ...:) 6th form is 16 17 18 19 over here, elective years of school for advanced level classes :)

That would be high school here then (U.S.). For us, those years are mandatory (although if you talk to a lot of us on a regular basis you'll wonder if we had our heads somewhere else the entire time...LOL) :o).

Here's my thoughts on Poser: It's mainly a hobbyist program. Now, before you go saying "Well, I use it PROFESSIONALLY!!", let me finish. It IS a hobbyist program, used mostly by hobbyists. That's just the way it is. Schools aren't going to waste their time (or yours) teaching something that the student will more than likely never use. There may be small exceptions, but those are far and few between. I've yet to have a graphics job where Publisher (thank the gods) has been used. It's nearly always been Quark, so that's what the schools teach ;o).

Since I'm a graphic artist, I'll use that kind of reference.

If I were going to school for graphics right now, they're surely not going to teach me to use Microsoft Publisher if there's Quark XPress. Conversely, your average glee club member who wants to create a flyer for the next big musical get together isn't going to do it with Quark, they're gonna use Publisher.

For those that disagree, flame on...LOL. I can take it ;o).

Laurie

Well, I edited the above and mangled it, but I'm sure you get my drift ;o). I'm all for what works for you - whatever program that may be, but that's not necessarily what you're going to be taught at any school or college. They're only going to cover the main, more important, more widely used programs that you'll run across.

Laurie

Poser (or better Daz Studio cuz it's free) would make a great introduction to computer graphics at the grade school level, but even the ine most "liberal" communities in the US, I suspect that the nudity would be a deal breaker. Even if it were an elective, someone would object, conservative groups would get involved and headlines about the school teaching "computer porn" would appear followed immediately by the school backing down.

If the figures were limited to the Poser 4-3-2 default clothed figures, then nudity wouldn't be an issue
DPH

Poser 5 also had a pre-clothed casual version of Judy and Don.
DPH

That's actually the reason why DAZ's characters' default textures come with underwear.

I don't think nudity is the issue so much as it's POSER...LOL.

Laurie

Yeah, the're clothed figures.  Perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic  thinking that anyone would condemn Poser because of what others are using it for - cough.

At any rate, if you look around, Poser is being used in university classes but more for the figures as an adjunct it seems.

ex. School of the Art Institute of Chicago:

"Digital Bodies Performed (ATS)

This intention of this class is to choreograph virtual performance and dance inspired movement styles using Maya, the 3D animation software. Appropriating standardized digital bodies provided by Poser charactermodeling software"

I doubt you're going to find many classes where Poser is the main focus. 

Why do you say Americans are a bunch of stuffed shirts? Everyone here is a stuffed shirt? Does that mean that everyone in Europe is into porn? Sorry to rant but so tired of hearing that a whole populace is one thing or another is getting annoying. Come to America and meet some people, then make your decision after you have met EVERYONE here before you make a statement about all of us. I have met very few people here who are "stuffed shirts" and I've lived all over.

I don't see anywhere where any one populace was painted with a wide brush.  Most of us in the discussion are americans.  In my case, I was talking from my own experience.

I'm the one that made the stuffed shirt coment Jen. And I am American and that HAS been my experience here. I sure don't remember saying anything like that meant all Europeans were into porn then tho..... I CAN say we're a bunch of stuffed shirts. It's MY country...lol. I'm fairly aware of what I run into every day here. And it's exactly the above. If you take offense to that, it wasn't my intention, but an observation.

Laurie

Ah.  Well, not EVERYONE in the US is a "stuffed shirt",  but, at the same time, the most vocal of us usually are.  Sucks, but, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

Quote - ... Sucks, but, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

That they do ;o). And I was kinda answering Marque's comment more than yours...lol. I guess I should have quoted...

Laurie

It's all good.  It's morning ;) 

Having started out in college going for a Game Design degree from Full Sail (but then switching my degree program after realizing I suck royally at physics & math), I can assure you that at least Full Sail does not even touch Poser for its game design degree program.

Yes, I may have dropped out of that degree program, but I did still keep in touch with the friends I had that continued through it. :)

Quote - Sucks, but, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

Well, yeah, but if you're into that then no one could call you a stuffed shirt, hmm?

Wait-- you were using a euphemism, yes?

:biggrin: :lol: :biggrin:

completely a euphemism, but not for that, LOL

 I would totally play a game or watch a movie with Poser characters. 
In fact, I've made my games and movies with Poser.

Also unless you're an arrogant 3D critique, the little lack of detail in Poser figures will not stop you from enjoying the film. 

lol made the statement about porn to make a point. Actually if you look at the small amount of folks in the poser forum and compare it with the amount of folks in the U.S. you would see how that statement about stuffed shirts makes no sense. That is also probably the reason the schools don't teach poser, as stated above, not being snobby so much as realizing there is just not enough interest to justify a class for it.

Well, you've made your point. My experiences with my fellow countrymen does not constitute ALL Americans and Renderosity's fairly free thinking U.S. members doesn't either...lol.

Laurie