Many of you may know me and for those of you who don't, let's just say I've been in the business of Poser art for over 10 years and have been one of the quiet sleeping dogs that generally prefers to remain under the porch and snoring when it comes to topic discussions regarding software and models...but after receiving my Poser 8 DVD this morning, my slumber has been disturbed enough to get on here and just let somebody have it.

I haven't even installed my new upgrade yet and I've already got several beefs with Smith Micro over Poser 8 and they are as follows:

1. Where the heck is my manual?  Okay, the reason I ordered and paid extra [shipping] for a copy of Poser is because before this every hard-copy version came with a big'ole fat manual that has been a bible for me for many years.  And now...I don't even get a proper box with my software much less a manual.  I inquire about this and learn that they just aren't printing them this go around.  Why?  To go "greener" they say, but yet I note that the price of my software hasn't gone lower, and indeed, I realize that those manuals are huge and expensive to print, so without them, SM is undoubtedly pocketing a lot more of their money than before.  And this is also the case with the DVD case rather than a box...again the "green" ain't for the environment, it's to line their bottom line with.  Enough said on that...but I am very, VERY disappointed in the lack of a printed manual.  I would even be willing to pay extra or buy it separate just to have it, but no...no manual on paper for us.

2. WHERE THE -BLEEP- is my P4 render engine???????  Am I nuts, or does the included paperwork in my DVD case show a distinct lack of the P4 engine tab on the rendering options?  Now don't get me wrong, I like Firefly and all...but there are times [in regards to speed mostly] that I want my P4 engine, especially when rendering animations that take forever in the first place.  No way am I waiting around for a Firefly rendered animation sequence.  Hair and transparencies give Firefly the drags big time.  So why did they remove a perfectly good engine from the package.  This totally blows and is just about enough to make me pack up the software before even installing it.

3. What were they doing with the new runtime directories?  From the images of the screenshots I'm looking at, it looks like they've tried to copy that silly DAZ studio layout to some degree a factor which has kept me from using DAZ studio all these years.  WHY?  For the love of potatos and gravy, why the heck can these people not leave what works alone and just improve it?  Why are they removing the things that worked and implementing new stuff that probably won't?  I liked the old runtime navigation layout...--sigh--...maybe I'm just lame.

Most of this is probably old hat for ya'll...and maybe I should wake up more during tech talk 101 around here...but I haven't.

Someone back me up here and tell SM to go take a lesson from Adobe corporation.  I recently made the jump from Photoshop 5.0 to CS4 with no learning curve at all.  They add to, and never subtract.  Photoshop is beautiful in terms of software improvement.   Maybe we'll get lucky and SM will sell off Poser before version 9 is released.  Maybe we'll get luckier and Adobe will buy it.

:0)

I admit maybe I'm just pre-judging this all, and if so I'll be back tomorrow to eat my crow and all, but for now...and tonight...I think I'll stick working with P7.

Sincerely,
One aggitated and disappointed Poser professional artist

**Do not, I repeat do not, uninstall Poser 7
**The worst is yet to come, wait till you discover all the library problems ! Then you'll really have something to rant about.
I've given up till I hear cheerfull reports that everything is fixed and working, untill then I'm re-installing Poser 7.  
Tommy. 

Quote - I recently made the jump from Photoshop 5.0 to CS4 with no learning curve at all.

Did your CS4 come with a manual? Mine didn't and it was an "Educational" copy!

cs4e also has some 3d/anim features that were not included in APS 5.
however, it's true - no P4 renderer in P8.  there have been some complaints about the new directory structure, but these things take time.  I thought there was a kind of mini-manual in the DVD case but apparently not now.  if daz wouldn't buy P6 from e-f, if SM couldn't sell P7 to autodesk, then there's no chance adobe will buy P9.  but we shall see.

Why are people missing the P4 renderer is beyond me. Maybe because I started with P7, maybe because when I buy a car that was produced this year I don't expect to have an additional motor inside that is from the 1920's just to hear the sound.

True! Especially when you can still keep both cars in the garage if you want! The same goes for Poser. You can have Posers 4 thru 8 all loaded on your machine at the same time with no detriment other than file storage space. I have Posers 6,7,8 and Pro all installed and working just fine. In fact, I enjoy the fact that now with Poser 8 I can still run Poser 6 at the same time for quick edits of things not quite working right til SR1 comes out for Poser 8 like saving material collections.

Quote - Why are people missing the P4 renderer is beyond me. Maybe because I started with P7, maybe because when I buy a car that was produced this year I don't expect to have an additional motor inside that is from the 1920's just to hear the sound.

I use the P4 render engine all the time. As I texture clothes, the p4 render engine is much quicker to see if what I am doing is working. If I had to use the firefly engine at this stage of the texturing process it would drive me nuts, the draft is still way too slow.

LOL. Well put, JAG. People forget that this is an open forum for questions, complaints, directives.

Gone are the days--and I'm talking about the MetaCreations/Poser 3+ days--when the founding fathers included a substantive, doorstop-size guide to the software right there in the ol' box. (sigh) But we know there's a pretty strong likelihood that a 3rd party, P8 users guide tome is already in the works, ripe for release any day now. (Think Kelly Murdock's Official e frontier Guide for Poser 7)

In the meantime, go on, install. Yeah, there are annoying additions, like the library layout or external runtime install problems, but those pains-in-the-tush are already being dealt with for the SR1. However, the new indirect lighting feature is a hell of a lot of fun to play around with and the results can be pretty amazing.

You're right. It ain't Photoshop. But who among us is?

The firefly render has never been slow for me, in many instances it's even faster than the P4 renderer.  Maybe it's raytrace you're thinking about?   Just uncheck that.

1. I prefer a manual too but it seems more and more software are doing the pdf instead.Or videos and I'm one of those that have a bad time using vids. I prefer the book in front of me.

It has been discussed in other threads that there was not going to be a manual. So I knew not to bother with ordering the disk and having to pay outragous shipping and extra tax for something I can bun to a disk myself.

1. I believe it was for the core re-write and to be honest, P8 renders just as fast as the p4 did if set up as the same as what p4 could do. Maybe faster with muti thread. I can't say for sure because I have not rendered with the P4 renderer in a couple of versions now.

I think you will be surprised at how fast P8 renders. As I said if set up like P4, you know, no raytracing, or AO. IBL, the new IDL and what ever else that P4 didn't have.  But if not, well, at least you still have other versions.

1. I'm not liking them either but the kiddies seem to like it. It has been stated that it was done like that for future reasons that can't be told. LOL. It works for me but make sure you do point the content to install in your proper runtime folder. They have the Fn default installing to some strange bygone place, way over in your Documents and settings BS.

I see you just got a taste of the new type of poser users. Not only software versions change.

@JAG:

You expect people to give you informations instead of reading what's already in other threads. It's easier to insult someone as a newbie than getting your informations. I may be younger than you but I know how to read and buy only things where I know what's inside. I don't use other people to do the thinking for me.

But I'm really laughing when I think how you may look if you discover the real bugs of Poser 8. In that case I would even try to help. Have fun with it!

@Dgerzee and @MikeJ: Nice gesture but the README explained most of it on the first page.

@Anniebel: I believe the developers at SM think that the majority of users have enough RAM to digest the textures and processor speed. But I don't know about your processor and RAM to know if that's the real explanation. I did not see a real difference in speed for firefly draft to P4render  (in Poser Pro).

Quote -
@Dgerzee and @MikeJ: Nice gesture but the README explained most of it on the first page.

What README?
You mean included with the program? It would be a little late for that after buying it, wouldn't you say?

I already explained how none of JAG's issues are mentioned on the main product pages I linked to, and how someone might very well make a decision to buy it without looking further than that. If you can't get that, maybe you don't read as well as you think you do.

@MikeJ: I already wrote that before, so I don't know why you are this making up. I stated in the first posting he (JAG) read neither the product infos nor the Readme. And of course he did not read in the forum, instead he opened another thread even though some of his questions were already in the headlines of the threads for this forum on the first page. That' what I call ignorant and lazy. Maybe it is arrogant to some people to name it what it is. But considering that P8 really has some bugs where people help with workarounds I don't understand why the same questions pop up in that quantity. And since his thread was titled "a review" I expected something different. Reviewers usually understand what they write about.

And if I have misunderstood you, sorry, English is not my native language, only learned it for a few years in school. Nevertheless I'm able to read English so far that I understand what I buy and to know that you have just another opinion. :-)

I think a simple "caveat emptor" would have been sufficient, if you really felt the need to comment at all.
For whatever reason though you chose to take it personally, which is just...weird.

I'd say you'd be better off channeling that anger towards something in your life that really deserves it and if not, there are plenty of injustices in the rest of the world.

What JAG thinks about his Poser 8 purchase should have no bearing on you or your life and certainly didn't deserve the level of assault you launched on him for it.

@MikeJ: Considering what you are writing I'm amused that you're telling me I would take something here personally. The anger and hypocrisy is all yours. LOL

I agree that it's a total waste of my time, but then again, you started at it first.
However, if you read all that's been said in this thread, I'd think you would notice that there's not been any anger in any of my posts. I have attempted to point out how you are wrong for posting what you did, but you're obviously not getting that. Which should have been pretty predictable, really.
No hypocrisy either, but I'll let you slide on that, considering English isn't your main language.

Quote - Lost in Spaceman - No photoshop manual either but you can download an interactive HTML/PDF file manual from the Adobe site if you look for it.  Otherwise the "help" file only takes you to the Adobe website.  Once you install their manual it will make the help button open the manual on your system.

Sorry to Off-Topic, but I downloaded the http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Photoshop/11.0/photoshop_cs4_help.pdf file but where do I install it so that F1 loads it instead of the internet browser?

I personally haven't even looked at the Poser4 renderer since getting my grubby mitts on Poser5.

Quote - I agree that it's a total waste of my time, but then again, you started at it first.
However, if you read all that's been said in this thread, I'd think you would notice that there's not been any anger in any of my posts. I have attempted to point out how you are wrong for posting what you did, but you're obviously not getting that. Which should have been pretty predictable, really.
No hypocrisy either, but I'll let you slide on that, considering English isn't your main language.

The most predicable about your posting is that I knew you would answer again.  But I prefer to ignore you now.

Quote -
But I prefer to ignore you now.

Of course you do. Hell of a lot easier than admitting you're wrong, isn't it?

I'm glad you'll be ignoring me though, it's good to know I'll have one less thing to distract me.

Quote -
Sorry to Off-Topic, but I downloaded the http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Photoshop/11.0/photoshop_cs4_help.pdf file but where do I install it so that F1 loads it instead of the internet browser?

Beats me. I tried that once before and again just now, and can't get it. There's a page in the online help that almost seems to be explaining how to do that, but just kinda stops, like it loses interest or something. ;-)

 I don't understand why we have to go through this everytime there is a release....but to each his own, I myself love Poser 8. 

Sharen

I just found this, it might help:
www.thelightsright.com/node/69

I don't know what all is there and don't feel like messing with it now but there might be an answer there somewhere.

Quote - I just found this, it might help:
www.thelightsright.com/node/69

I don't know what all is there and don't feel like messing with it now but there might be an answer there somewhere.

I found this little tidbit:

Quote - Go to window/extensions/connections and select offline as the option.  (You have to log in with your Adobe ID)The help file will come up in a browser window offline. Compliments of Adobe tech support.

It loads the same file as the online version but that file isn't the PDF file I downloaded. At least it allows you to get help offline though.  Another issue I'm having is CS4 isn't recognising my ATI Radeon X1250 as a video card so I'm not getting any OpenGL options.

Sorry for the OTness of my posts but I'm getting answers quicker in here than the Photoshop forum.

All I can do is wish you luck once you get beyond installing......

Quote -
It loads the same file as the online version but that file isn't the PDF file I downloaded. At least it allows you to get help offline though. 

Probably just easier to make a desktop shortcut to the pdf file.  ;-)

Quote -  I don't understand why we have to go through this everytime there is a release....but to each his own, I myself love Poser 8. 

Sharen

This is nothing, Sharen, what happens here. Pretty tame, really.
You should check out the 3ds Max and Maya and Mudbox and Softimage forums at CG Talk and The Area, particularly this year. Only they go through it every year. ;-)

 Ok, folks, I have deleted several posts in this threads for personal attacks.  Further attacks will merit the locking of this thread.  

A legitimately frustrated member posted his opinion.  That is not something to attack over.  If you have any problems with a post, you have two options:  Contact a staff member, or ignore it.  You DO NOT have the option to berate the member.

Jeni Burns
Renderosity Moderator

Caveat Emptor

Before spending big chunks of money on software, call me crazy, but I tend to do a bit of research into what I'm buying.

Pay close attention to any thread on CGTalk that mentions Poser (any version) & see what the "elite" do to the person mentioning it.

Quote - Pay close attention to any thread on CGTalk that mentions Poser (any version) & see what the "elite" do to the person mentioning it.

True, but many of those "elite" could model a V4 type figure, rig her up, UV and texture and animate her all in one day.
For as little tact as some of them display in how they treat Poser users, they've at least earned the right to look down their noses at Poser.
But they don't all do it. I've seen many "elite" defending the hobbyists and n00bs, and Poser too.

The big problem with CGT is half of them suck up to Leigh and she can't stand Poser or Poser users.

No they haven't, they've earned the right to be proud of themselves & nothing more.

Quote - No they haven't, they've earned the right to be proud of themselves & nothing more.

I meant from a software standpoint, not a moral standpoint.
C'mon, have you never made fun of Microsoft Paint?  Never insulted Wordpad in the course of praising CR2 Editor? ;-)

1)  It's unfortunate that you are having problems, my runtime libraries seem (knock on wood) to be running fine right now--I've loaded up new stuff and old stuff--Generation 1 Daz figures and other Poser stuff.  M4 and M2--no problems here.  It could have something to do with location of the runtime, or changes that have been made to it.  I placed my Poser Runtime library in My Documents folder on Vista.  I let Poser 8 install the new runtime into it's default new location.  I used the add runtime library button to add my libraries to the libraries pallate.  Perhaps making other choices mucks things up.

2)  Every time I buy I new program, it seems there are major bugs.  When I try to movie a light, for instance, with the tranlate too it goes spinning off into space somewhere--but using the parameter dials works fine.

3)  I've had major probems with the Poser 4 render engine creating weird artifacts on my pictures in Poser 7.  I'm not sorry to see it go personally, you can scale down your render quality for quick and dirty test renders.

4)  Almost no one is including a printed manual anymore and if they are available you usually have to pay extra for them.  Not even Adobe Photoshop comes with one since CS3; you'd think that high end software costing many hundreds of dollars would.  For the most part I've found that included manuals for programs are inadequate, I've always purchased 3rd party books to fill the gaps and that works well for me.  You might want to try Poser 8 Revealed or Practical Poser 8--I think that Practical Poser 8 would probably be the best choice for someone with Poser experience--my past edition of the Poser Revealed was extremely basic.

I remember Poser 5 was so bug ridden for the first 2 years it was out I could not use it, so I was using Poser 4 Pro Pack for a while.  By the time they got Poser 5 right, Poser 6 was released.  I don't think we'll  have to wait that long in this case--Curious Labs was very slow to release patches.

Quote -
The big problem with CGT is half of them suck up to Leigh and she can't stand Poser or Poser users.

Wel I have seen her(Leigh )defend peoples right to use any program thet gets the job done even it it means using a poser  figure for a quick simpe animation etc.

But it is pathetic to see how many Guys over there
Kiss up to her some times but Oh well it just a website.
An im too caught up learning MODO401 and watching "Gundam00" to care .

Cheers

"1. Where the heck is my manual? "

Yep, I have to agree 1000% with that. I hate reading/learning at my computer.

I enjoy kicking back and actually reading tech documents/manuals while NOT sitting in front of the computer.

I ran into the same issue with Carrara 7 Pro. 
Sad to see this trend.
I fully understand it helps keep production and shipping costs down but offering a manual at an additional charge would be a grand idea.

Oh well.
I agree - I want my hard copy documentation!!

:)

Clint

Quote - 1. Where the heck is my manual?
2. WHERE THE -BLEEP- is my P4 render engine?
3. What were they doing with the new runtime directories?

1. Cut costs doesn't always mean lots more profit if your trying to maintain a price on your product in the face of raising wages, insurance, overhead, etc.

2. sacrificed to the rewrite of the core code.

3. Dammed if you do dammed if you don't change. if they didn't change people would complain that it was old and crappy, if they did change people would complain because you shouldn't fix what isn't broken.

Quote - True, but many of those "elite" could model a V4 type figure, rig her up, UV and texture and animate her all in one day.
For as little tact as some of them display in how they treat Poser users, they've at least earned the right to look down their noses at Poser.
But they don't all do it. I've seen many "elite" defending the hobbyists and n00bs, and Poser too.

I've never seen any of the elite, like Steven Ståhlberg for example,  bad-mouth us Poser users.   No, most definitely it's not the "elite" doing it but the wannabe elite, you know the type that model and render (probably in a pirated maya) an apple in a bowl and expect everyone to drool.

No one IMO earns the right to rip others apart like that in a community art forum just because they use a  particular software application.   It would be like a teacher berating her students for knowing less than her.

When SmithMicro took over, I too was worried.  However, since Poser 8's release I can see that SM has proposed a new "road map" for this product (ie: wxPython, Uber-size library support, network/product/content integration ) as well as giving it some long overdo attention (renderer, joints, lights).  Change ain't easy and the road is gonna be a little rough as we get started, but it's a helluva lot better than wandering aimlessly, or going backward.

Many of the benefits of Poser 8 have yet to be touched on and as things unfold your gonna see product and content that simply CAN NOT be done on older versions.  I'm also looking forward to what Poser Pro 2 will offer.

......Definitely worth sticking around

take care

Quote -
No one IMO earns the right to rip others apart like that in a community art forum just because they use a  particular software application.   It would be like a teacher berating her students for knowing less than her.

Not really, because it's a teacher's job to educate her students and nurture their hopes. Those aforementioned "elite" aren't there to do a public service.
But if you want to use the school analogy, they're more like the playground bullies. ;-)

I'm not so sure it's only the wannabe elite though. I've seen some rather highly-accomplished 3D people ripping Poser and Poser users.

Quote -
When SmithMicro took over, I too was worried.

Yeah I didn't have such high hopes either. I pictured some mega-corporation buying Poser to use for nothing more than a tax write off. ;-)

But it does now seem they have good plans for it, and Steve Cooper seems pretty excited about it these days again. Bugs aside, they've done a pretty good job updating it and  bringing it into the mainstream.

Hmm, I agree wholeheartedly JAG. Be very carefull though, I recently  said things here along verry similer lines and got slated from certain quarters....it was even suggested that maybe I should go back to using Poser1 if I just wanted to do "simple renders"

Right with you JAG

Quote - Never insulted Wordpad in the course of praising CR2 Editor? ;-)

I miss edlin, myself. :lol:

In regards to the manual, you can always print your own copy of the PDF manual, I've done that before with Bryce (which it turns out I hate).  You can also copy the PDF and take it to Staples or another office store and have them print up a copy.  I don't like computer manuals either, but it's something I'm learning to live with--besides gone are the days that I read a software manual cover to cover anyhow.

Quote - When SmithMicro took over, I too was worried.  However, since Poser 8's release I can see that SM has proposed a new "road map" for this product (ie: wxPython, Uber-size library support, network/product/content integration ) as well as giving it some long overdo attention (renderer, joints, lights).  Change ain't easy and the road is gonna be a little rough as we get started, but it's a helluva lot better than wandering aimlessly, or going backward.

Many of the benefits of Poser 8 have yet to be touched on and as things unfold your gonna see product and content that simply CAN NOT be done on older versions.  I'm also looking forward to what Poser Pro 2 will offer.

......Definitely worth sticking around

take care

I'm just hoping for a return to a little more code portability in the future. I don't much like the prospects of my software being made up of a combination of softwares from several sources/companies running together yet are still separate software packages...any one of which could potentially be changed by it's maker and bork poser with a single auto-update. 

Other than my own stupid fears mentioned above, the continued advancement of the software is a very welcome piece of information. Change can be a very good thing if it enables users to do the things they've only dreamed of doing before. 

"In regards to the manual, you can always print your own copy of the PDF manual, I've done that before with Bryce (which it turns out I hate).  You can also copy the PDF and take it to Staples or another office store and have them print up a copy. "

If you want to spend $100+ on printer cartridges and run your printer ragged printing hundreds of pages filed with graphic examples.

I also thought of using Kinkos or Staples to print the manuals.
I check on how much it would cost to print the old Rhino 1.0 manual - Staples quoted me over $100.00.

Not very cost effective.

The software development companies should make the manual an optional add-on or something for a reasonable up charge.
I personally enjoy reading tech manuals.

Clint

The Poser Reference Manual is 565 pages.

If you go here:

http://www.mimeo.com/products/manual-printing.php

You can get a double-sided bound copy for $12.81 US.

Gahh! bagginsbill you beat me to the punch... LOL!

I was thinking along the same lines...perhaps?

Could SM put the manual up on "print on demand" web site of their choosing? Something like Lulu maybe? http://www.lulu.com/

Might be a win-win situation?

That price for one copy was a special deal for low volume runs by first time customers.

If SM were to run off 10,000 copies, it would cost $256,000 US.

With the additional packaging (big box needed), plus shipping and handling, this would require they add about $50 to $60 to the price.  Go get your own for $13.

Great link Bill - Thanks you!

Clint

Poser isn't  the only program from the Metacreation days, look at Daz Cararra and Corel Painter--both started out their lives being bought and sold.  The current version of Painter is rock solid; I wouldn't let the fact that Poser has passed through several owners  hands discourage you.

D/S has only ever been owned by Daz and I've had more problems with it than I have ever had with Poser.  Not to mention the fact that I had to download and reinstall all of my plugins every time the product was updated (which was frequently).