Curious minds wants to know.

Since apparently we can't discuss RDNA things here, I would guess that from now on, only things bought in the REnderosity Marketplace can be discussed at Renderosity. Everything else should be taken to the appropriate place's forum. Too bad if you bought something at CP, since they do not have a forum...

Sorry, Jen. Diuscussing things has nothing to do with flaming them, and I REALLY doesn't understand why the last thread was locked. That's inappropriate imo. It's not like people were flaming anyone. But as a customer at SEVERAL places, I dont' like to be told that I can't discuss a certain vendor/marketplace's products here as long as it's within the TOS.

Like We can NEVER talk about Vicky or Mike..  How is that going to happen?

I don't think that's it Trekkie. I think the powers that be just don't want rampant speculation until we know all the facts. I'm sure even you know how rumor tends to become gospel sometimes ;o).

And for as much that a lot of us would remain calm and respectful, ya just know there are some that aren't gonna be ;o).

Laurie

 It's not about discussing the product, it's about discussing a situation, one in which none of us have any knowledge on.  The appropriate place to ask about a situation at another store is at that store.  I can't tell you what's going on at RDNA because I don't work there, and the people I do know that work there, I know on a superficial level.  Sure, Sydd, Colm, and I are friends on facebook.  That's about as close as it gets.  I'm also "friends" with Zach Braff on there, and I don't have an insight to Scrubs, either.  

My point is, all a speculative thread would serve is to fan flames.  If you have definitive knowledge of what they're doing, we're all "eyes", but, I doubt anyone here does.  

Also, on a legal level, let's say someone says something that turns out to be patently untrue and turns out to hurt someone on a professional level.  We're just as liable in a libel suit (no pun intended at all) as the original poster, if not more so.  Historically, the community gets out the torches and pitchforks, rather than politely discuss what's going on.  Remember Mendhi?  Sure, she dug her own grave, but there were dozens right there ready to help her out.  That's not fair to anyone.  

This place isn't a court of law, and we can't treat it that way.  You're free to speculate, even post your speculations elsewhere, but, out of fairness to the staff over at RDNA, who are working right now to get through the situation (which rarely takes less than a week, if done properly and fairly), and to cover ourselves legally, we're not going to allow speculative posts on what's going on over there.

Feel free to post reviews about products.  Ask questions about products.  From any store.  We're not trying to say you can't have an opinion.  But, let's let RDNA work this one out for themselves, shall we?

Yep, what Jen said...lol.

Laurie

 I'm all for not fanning flames.

But you can't stop people from speculating what happened here. When someone's whole collection is suddenly yanked from the store, and it's someone popular, it stands to reason that people are alarmed. I just bought another of that seller's models a few days ago and now I don't even know if it's safe to render her or not.

Of course, the people at RDNA are investigating the matter, and all are innocent until proven guilty - that is a general principle og the law in most places. But I REALLY get bad vibes when the whole store is gone... because it DOES imply that there may be problems with other of thee items as well.

As far as I remember, if someone over her are caught copying for instance a texture, it doesn't lead to all that person's products being pulled, right? Only the offending (or questionable, until proven otherwise) product, right?

Someone told me that Jessi was originally from Turbosquid - I'd never heard that before, but if that is the case, couldn't someone else go buy that same base mesh as well? And wouldn't that be legal? At least the head job was sufficiently better made in the new one...

I guess what' I'm opposing to is the speed that any thread getting even remotely close to the subject is being locked. It only irks people, y'know. And it gives me a feeling of covering up something - most likely totally unwarranted, as RDNA isn't even Bondware anymore so there shouldn't be any family feelings left - but regardless.. it seems a little like thought police, this.

Things aren't going to go away just by ignoring them. And all the hush-hust only affirms people that there IS something dodgy - again possibly totally unwarranted, as the verdict is still out on this one... but secrecy is the fastest way to start the rumour-mill.

Anyone who bought the product has knowledge on it... speculation is one thing but communicating knowledge you have on a thing based on a look at the mesh and .cr2 is another. People speculate on stuff here all the time which isn't terribly interesting to me... but if someone paid good money for a mesh and had a look at it and can share some knowledge they have on it that would be neat IMHO. I have seen DAZ and other mesh discussed here at length for many years with people going very deeply into the knowledge they have on it.

Whatever.

Oh, BTW... anyone have an up-to-date review of the Eva mesh and its rigging based on any knowledge they have on it?

 Lisbeth, I never once said we're trying to ignore it.  What I have said, over and over is that Renderosity is not the place to deal with a situation happening at RDNA.  If you want to know if any of the makers' products are in question, no one here can tell you.  Speculating HERE not only doesn't make sense, it DOES fan the flames, whether you want it to or not.  

This isn't about "family feelings".  It's about respect.  If you can't respect that these things take time, I'm sorry.  If you were the one in question, whether you were innocent or not, would you want people speculating your every move on another site?  Probably not.  That's what this comes down to.  The Golden Rule: Treat Others Like You Want To Be Treated.  

If a merchant is caught with a blatant copyright violation here, you bet your knickers their store is closed, whether it's because they sold the product or gave away their password for someone else to get free downloads.  When a copyright claim is filed by the copyright holder, the merchants' store goes into holding.  Even those not in question.  MANY copyright problems handled here are done so under the radar, mostly to protect the legitimate copyright holder. 

As for the Jesse mesh, I don't know if it was available on TS.  I don't go there, and have no need to.  

Again, there are 2 possible parties that can give any legitimate answers on ANY of these questions.  RDNA and EFrontier.  We can't give answers because we don't have direct knowledge on their business practices.  If "Go to the source" isn't a good enough answer, it makes me wonder if the purpose behind a thread about what's going on with Eva really is.  

Yes, I'll acknowledge, in the past, the public persecution went on, usually without comment unless someone said something really bad, and even then it was in the Copyright forum, not the Poser forum.  I wasn't a Mod then.  I am now.  And I'm putting my foot down.  The public persecution is not only unacceptable, but it puts Renderosity in a position legally that I'm not willing to put it in.  If you want to do it on your own site, so be it, that's completely up to you, but I'm not willing to go there.  

Be patient.  These things take time.  If the figures you purchased were a violation, you'll no doubt be told.  

I bought things from the creator in question, as well....one of my favorite figures, as a matter of fact.  Should the figure I purchased be in question, I have projects that I have worked on under contract that could come into question, and may have to completely redo, as a part of the stipulations in my contract with my client.  So, yes, I am personally worried, but posting here can do nothing other than add to any speculation.  If I have a question about whether or not any other figures are in question, it's up to me to contact customer service at RDNA.

I guess it came out wrong. I never meant to imply that you were hushing it up deliberately!

I DO respect the good people over at RDNA. And I feel for them - as I feel for the creator of said meshes - if the whole thing is a storm in a teacup, then a lot of sales have been lost, money been lost. Bad rep been dished out.. all for nothing.

What puzzles me is that RDNA hasn't said anything -  I mean I just bought that SheBot a few days ago, now it's not available and I have heard NOTHING. If I'd bought it for a commission and was well underway with the works.. wouldn't it be NICE to know I could stop before I'd spent days on it? 

And I know it's not your (as in Renderosity's) fault. Thing is.. if I hadn't read it here, I wouldn't have known AT ALL. I do not frequent the RDNA forums, there's only so many hours in the day and Rosity is my 3D forum of choice. I rely on it to give me information, not just about Rosity stuff and events, but of the Poser world in general. And if some subjects are suddenly off limits.. well... Everybody loses.

They probably haven't said anything because they haven't decided what they're going to do yet.  It's understandable.  There was a pretty substantial catalogue of product, and we outside RDNA have no idea if they have to go through that, as well.  I have faith in them that they'll be forthcoming.  It may not be as fast as you want it, but it will be when it happens.

It's not so much that some subjects are "suddenly off limits".  Discussing for pages on end tidbits and details when, to be honest, we're pretty much  no better than armchair quarterbacks yelling at the refs on most occasions.  You may be upset, but, your being upset isn't going to make things go faster, and, the more you dwell on it, the longer it seems.  

As for "off limits" subjects...to be honest, other sites' and peoples' legal matters should always have been off limits.

Here's an excerpt from the beginning of the TOS:

Member/User Conduct:

Members and users are expected to conduct themselves in a manner that is constructive and respectful of others at all times. Additionally, we hope that each member/user will work to facilitate a culture of collaboration and positive reinforcement, so we can all share our passion for art while developing our personal ambitions, and friendships.

Members/Users will not use this community for:

Any practices that affect the normal operations of the community (Admins will take whatever steps are necessary to restore service).

• Transmitting any libelous, defamatory, or any other material that could give rise to any civil or criminal liability under the law.
• Personal attacks. This includes but is not limited to, destructive, abusive, defamatory communications in any form, and retaliatory attacks from personal attacks. If you need assistance, please communicate with someone from ourRenderosity Team.
• Destructive commentary/communications made with the intent to disrupt or attack (Trolling). This applies to any communications within this community, whether in the forums, art galleries, graffiti wall, chat, blogs, sitemail or article opinions."

The simple fact is, I've yet to see many discussions regarding a potentially infringing product where the TOS wasn't breached in this regard.  Whether it's libel, personal attacks, or destructive commentary, those threads were full of them.  On the whole, we (community-wide) have a tendency to shoot first, and ask questions later.  We can't do that, and my team isn't going to allow it.  These kinds of discussions aren't allowed at most other sites, and there are reasons for it.  Most of them legal.

As it is, there is a due process.  All we're saying, is let things take their course.  

I feel that it is entirely possible to discuss the figure without any speculation whatsoever.

As I understand it the word speculation it would apply to a statement concerning how RDNA is handling  the matter in the absence of  firsthand knowledge (E.G. "They probably haven't said anything because they haven't decided what they're going to do yet.") while reportage or criticism are words that would apply to the analysis of the product as released. That  would concern factual information to do with material on the hard drive of the person making comments or observations as  opposed to speculation however well intentioned as to how the matter is being handled by RDNA. 

A  discussion of the product has nothing to do with anything happening at RDNA since the product left  RDNA the first time it was downloaded. Once the material is "published" it enters the real public world and ceases to be private. If it was intended that this figure should be kept private it would have been better not to sell it or otherwise distribute it to the public in my opinion. Statements of fact and opinions concerning a product are patently excluded from interpretation as liable whereas as a miss-statement of fact ("RDNA is/isn't dealing with this.") is in fact actionable as liable but then only if intentional as I understand it.

Once you sell something publicly it is no longer a purely a private matter in so far as those aspects of the product that are now public, there is absolutely no legally relevant aspect to the discussion of those publicly revealed features in my opinion since I am aware of no non-disclosure clauses in the store license prohibiting people from discussing the mesh or showing wire frame renders of it, even of discussing its technical features or its historic relevance. Public discussion and analysis of features made public such as the mesh and cr2 are de facto matters of public interest. People have freely discussed the functionality and sculptural form of figures such as those sold by DAZ for as long as I have been here.

Saying RDNA is handling it in a fair and responsible manner is literally speculation no matter how true it might be unless you have direct knowledge to that effect... a technical discussion of the publicly released data on the other hand is factual and not speculative.

...this is all just my opinion.

momodot, I really don't want to argue with you, but most of your assumptions are legally wrong.

It doesn't matter that a product was sold publicly.  Anything to do with it right now is between the broker and the vendor.  We'll know what goes on with it when we're told by those involved, and not a moment sooner.   

I'm not saying whether or not they are handling it in a fair and responsible manner.  I'm saying that we need to give them time to do so.  In the Brick-and-mortar world, it can be weeks, even months, before a copyright allegation is made public, with consumers being none the wiser. 

An example?  There was a perfume released as merchandising for the movie, Twilight.  The bottle was a clear almost exact replica of a Nina Ricci bottle.  The only difference was a little script on the bottle, and the glass color was slightly deeper.  Other than that, they were pretty much twins.  The Twilight perfume made it to stores before they could be pulled due to infringing on Nina Ricci's designs.  And the only people who knew that their perfume was on recall were those following the story.

Now, this may not be the exact same as what's going on here.  But, we're actually pretty spoiled in this community with the knowledge we do get, and for good reason.  There are a substantial amount of people in this community who use their purchases for profit, and have a deep desire to keep everything legal.  In essence, unless you're directly involved, as in you were infringed, or the infringer, no one has any obligation to let you know that anything has happened, or even refund your money.  Every other product that's "recalled" is "tough luck", you're out the money.  

There are constructive threads at RDNA that aren't locked yet that have some information.  Like I've been saying throughout the thread, that is the better place to take your concerns.  

as Rep for the Pitchfork, Torches, Popcorn, Wheeltappers and Shunters Union, I must lodge a formal protest over the denial of sales to our members....

Besides, members on this site have always been VERY fast to hang suspected wrong-doers on this site...  So why should that other site be immune to the usual treatment, LOL!
I just thought RDNA could have at least come back by now with some kind of statement and reassured customers who invested a lot of money into this new doll, that's all.  Silence is unsettling, after all.
No flame intended. 

Quote - Besides, members on this site have always been VERY fast to hang suspected wrong-doers on this site...  So why should that other site be immune to the usual treatment, LOL!

Because it's patently rude and uncalled for.

Investigations of any kind take time.  If you want to know what's going on over there, you're not going to get the answer here.

 I don't know why my post formatted like that.  There's only a comma in the white, and I don't want to spend 1/2 hour figuring out whats' wrong with the HTML, lol.

Attached Link: http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?p=479457#post479457

--Comic Book Guy Voice--

Worst product roll-out, ever . . .

:D

I'm of two minds on this issue, honestly.

I want to know what happened to Eva as much as anyone else does. I want to know every dirty detail and piece of gossip I can get my hands on.

But I ALSO remember the Clark Issue a few years back, where one merchant tried to publicly hang another because of some extremely vague mesh similarities and unsubstantiated claims. What happened? The figure's sales soared as the public rose up in defense of the figure, simply because of the way the other merchant behaved. (Or perhaps it was a voyeuristic want to be involved in the whole thing on a personal level!)

In any event, the truth about Eva will come out eventually. People who own her will start comparing her mesh and Cr2 to other figures and either see surprising similarities or just coincidence, as the case may be.

Actually, that sounds like a fun art study. The comparison of Poser figures in mesh form, only! 

... stupid muse.

Thanks Jen, I meant to come here earlier and post that link, but got caught up in other things :)

Actually Kerwin, the product rollout was freakin' awesome, it's what happened three days later that truly sucked.

Quote -  
Someone told me that Jessi was originally from Turbosquid - I'd never heard that before, but if that is the case, couldn't someone else go buy that same base mesh as well? And wouldn't that be legal? At least the head job was sufficiently better made in the new one...

I dunno who told you that, but P6 Jessi was put up for sale there shortly AFTER Poser 6 came out. I reported it to TPTB at E Frontier at that time and it was soon taken down from TurboSquid. Searching TurboSquid just now I was able to find head meshes that are based on P6 James and look to be simple faceroom morphs that have been exported out and put up for sale there. I also found the Poser 3/4 Casual Woman there too! Just goes to show that TurboSquid still doesn't do any copyright checking of the products people upload there.

 Well after what I was told, Jessi originated as a "how to build a figure" thing for Maya and was sold as a starting point for figure creation.

Steve, ask Antonio. He's the one who told me about it. I've never heard it before, but his sources are usually good.

Do you want to know a secret? Eva was made in China!

So according to Antonio's information P6 Jessi is based on a MR? And one still available in 2009ish?

Hmm

So...any updates?  Eva is still not back in the store.  They said it would be a week...a week ago.  The only news I could find at RDNA was the old thread announcing Eva's debut. 

Quote - So...any updates?  Eva is still not back in the store.  They said it would be a week...a week ago.  The only news I could find at RDNA was the old thread announcing Eva's debut. 

Your best bet would be to ask RDNA what the status is.

Laurie

These days most of the fun is in a stickied thread in product support (I think it is)

Not a lot of actual news though.

Quote - These days most of the fun is in a stickied thread in product support (I think it is)

Not a lot of actual news though.

Yeah, that's the problem.  I understand why people do that, and I've been very guilty of it myself.  But if you're just trying to find information, it's not very convenient, having to read through 15 pages of silliness.

Much easier to find a shorter thread somewhere, and ask. ;-)

I've also seen what looks a lot like a Victoria 2 mesh for sale at Turbo Squid, along with what looks like a Dystopian Kruger gun. At this point I'd never buy anything there.

Quote -  Well after what I was told, Jessi originated as a "how to build a figure" thing for Maya and was sold as a starting point for figure creation.

Steve, ask Antonio. He's the one who told me about it. I've never heard it before, but his sources are usually good.

Don't know what to tell you but the only Jessi mesh I've ever seen at Turbo Squid was pulled within a week of my reporting it to, at that time, E Frontier. I've never seen any other Jessi Mesh there and certainly no merchant resource that she might have been based on.

Considering the MANY copyright violations I've seen at TurboSquid in over 10 years of playing with this 3D hobby of mine, I wouldn't buy anything there thinking I had a right to make something commercial from it. Ever!

*a Dystopian Kruger gun.  * Thats just rude , it was a FREEBIE.

• goes to check it out *  

Turbosquid does not do much if any copyright checks until a complaint is filed. 

Quote - *a Dystopian Kruger gun.  * Thats just rude , it was a FREEBIE.

• goes to check it out *  

Turbosquid does not do much if any copyright checks until a complaint is filed. 

Yeah, there's nothing like waiting til the horse is out of the barn to try to corral it! I still wouldn't buy anything there for commercial use.

So , The  Eva situation looks like it Wont get resolved anytiime soon, hopefully as i write this she wil be realested againe but , if lawyers are invalved ,and papers have to be signed it could take mounthes to hash out a compromize, O Well !

The only reason lawyers would be involved is if the figure were indeed a copyright infringement and they're trying to work a deal out with the owners of the original mesh. This tells me it was an infringement, whether accidentally by buying an illegal resource or on purpose.

I stick to my original theory that they're just fixing the toesplay.

Holy cow.  Are you serious?  They are pulling ALL his products?

yup. no longer a merchant there, so they pull all the products.
still no official word on what happened... annoying.

Quote - So Eva not comeing back  also none of the other figures done by the same  artits thats sad becuse hes a good Craftsmen , my fav,,, figure is Fema Su

Well, that just bites...looking at that figure, I wish I'd have grabbed it before they pulled it off :(

Sounds like he's planning to set up shop on his own web site.

http://www.expressionimage.com/

Just a placeholder there so far.