OK, now that I've got your attention, here's the Proposition: Resolved - 'Is P4 Dork REALLY inferior to Michael 4?

Dork as morphed by me to look like Steven Dillane, a British actor who starred in William Nicholson's 1997 film: Firelight.  He's also starred in 'Welcome to Sarajevo,' and played Thomas Jefferson in the TV series 'John Adams'.

While Dork may not be everybody's cup of tea, the only REAL difference that I see between these figures is that DAZ massively supports M4 and doesn't support Dork -even though Dork was created by Zygote, the forerunner of DAZ. 
For those interested in these things, Dork comes complete with his own set of testicles, whereas M4 doesn't.  If anyone wants to render M4 au' natural, they'll have to buy his as a separate package.
dph

Good grief! What is going on with the ear on that figure? It makes crash test dummies seem life-like by comparison. 

There is some odd stretching going on with the texture in that render. The side of the face approaching the chin seems in need of relaxed uvs. Put a checkerboard pattern onto the head and find the distortion. I'm certain it is there. The upper lip is devoid of a lip texture. Where are the eyelashes? Did you notice they're missing? A mysterious force seems to be holding the eyelids above the eyeball and there is a black gap of space between. All of this is beside the point, of course, but if this example is the best you can do to provide as competition for M4, there is nothing here to debate. 

Dork vs. M4 debate is taking it too far IMO.  Appollo vs. M4 maybe there in no debate here.  To say the only REAL difference is the M4 support is a gigantic simplification.  Put Dork and M4 Base side by side in a semi-extreme pose with a strong expression and see who looks better.

I´m sorry, but even without testicles M4 would beat Dork in any kind of fight, any day of the week. ;)

M4 comes with genitals, or at least I have a pair in my DAZ people folder for him and I am too cheap to buy a pair. LOL

I used to love Posette. I still liked her face over the first generation of Victoria. And I still have all my Posette and Dork figures buried in P4's runtime on my external drive. (I have stuff spread across different Poser Runtimes, P4 thru Poser Pro and Poser 8. Yeah, what a mess!). As compaired to V4 and M4, Posette and Dork are now too low poly to feature in current renders, IMO. This doesn't mean that they were terrible figures! No, there were things about them that I liked over the early generations of DAZ figures.  (I had to work hard to get a face on both V4 and M4 that I liked, and there are proportion issues with both figures, and M4 lacks some shaping morphs, like an Adam's Apple).  Anyway, I got to wondering if Posette could be used with VSS by Bagginsbill.  First figure I came across in my old runtimes was the NEA version of Posette. She was mapped to take V2 textures, so I decided to try here. And yes, you can use VSS with her. So I rendered her in P8 with IDL and Koz's messy hair with BB's hair shader. She came out alright.

How quaint. I suppose it has some nostalgic value (glowing nostrils and all), but otherwise I can't see anything here that provides a compelling reason to waste time labouring with the Dork.

@Latexkuv: Your render of Posette does have a rather appealing face (I like it), but there are a lot of artifacts on the skin. Small lines are appearing on the upper neck (just below the chin), around the collar bone and generally on the chest. Very strange.

"How quaint. I suppose it has some nostalgic value (glowing nostrils and all), but otherwise I can't see anything here that provides a compelling reason to waste time labouring with the Dork."

That's an incredibly shallow retort, especially on an unpostworked image.

*"M4 comes with genitals, or at least I have a pair in my DAZ people folder for him and I am too cheap to buy a pair. LOL"

Mine didn't!  He's as castrated as the Sutan's Harem bodyguard!
dph

Unpostworked.  I've made few more adjustments to Dork's face to get him to closer resemble British Actor Steven Dillane.  This is Innovation!  This is what I've done with my own two hands with Dork.  I've remapped him to take M3 skins, and, using both ready made MT's and Magnets, I've morphed him to look like a semi-famous actor.  The Skin texture is Andre' for M3.  The shirt-Cravat is from Ghastly (John West), and also remapped by me to take separate textures on the Shirt, cravat, and collar.  The Frock coat is from Ghastly.  The hat is from Mostdigitalcreations, and originally made for M4.  So, this is what I've done with Dork, -can any of you do the same with M4? dph

Quote - M4 comes with genitals, or at least I have a pair in my DAZ people folder for him and I am too cheap to buy a pair. LOL

The Genitals were in the ++ morphs package, so if you bought that, then you would have the genitals.  They're not bad, more flexible than M3's junk.

Dork would be fine as a background figure, but the mesh for M4 is clearly more defined.

I actually rather like M4, it's a natural evolution from M3.  To compare it to Apollo is silly.  Apollo is a freebie, and worth every penny (in case this is too subtle, I find Apollo crude and useless).

Klebnor

I didn't come in until Poser 7, so I haven't done much with the legacy figures. 

However, I was very impressed with the remapped P5 Judy in David's Jane Eyre thread.  I'd never used Judy, and her neck and shoulders in the face shot were very nicely shaped.  I'll need to have a look at that old girl...

Quote - I didn't come in until Poser 7, so I haven't done much with the legacy figures. 

However, I was very impressed with the remapped P5 Judy in David's Jane Eyre thread.  I'd never used Judy, and her neck and shoulders in the face shot were very nicely shaped.  I'll need to have a look at that old girl...

I haven't packaged my remap of the P5 Judy to freestuff, because I just haven't had time.  If anyone would like to have this figure and post it yourselves, then PM me here and I'll send it to you.
dph

"This is a notification that ProudApache has posted a thread titled "DAZ M4 Muscle Morph Problem" to the Poser forum. Click here *to view the thread."

Need I say more?
dph

Well, I don't think anyone would argue that Posette and Dork were just plain easier to use. But therein lies the rub...not many option in the way of morphing or making them look different than they do out of the box (unless you're good with magnets and the morph tool). It's only logical that the more complicated the model, the more complicated it gets to use while at the same time opening up more options to the end user.

I might use Posette or Dork for background filler, but not for a close up. They just don't quite make it anymore ;o). No offense :o).

Laurie

*"I might use Posette or Dork for background filler, but not for a close up. They just don't quite make it anymore ;o). No offense :o)."*

Tell that to this Guy!! 
None taken, but just tell me, -just how un-Dork does Dork have to be, to be acceptable?  Does the face of a famous British actor count?  BTW, You'll find this render now in my gallery, if you'd like to leave a comment.
dph

I'm sorry dp...he still looks like Dork ;o). And there's some weird things going on around the nostrils?

Anyway, different strokes for different folks I guess. Not everyone is gonna come around to your way of thinking ;o). But if whatever makes you happy, all that counts. It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks in the scheme of things...

Laurie

I admire your commitment to Dork and Posette, as well as the remapping efforts. But it comes down to poly count now. They are just too low to be acceptable without postwork.  

Quote - While Dork may not be everybody's cup of tea, the only REAL difference that I see between these figures is that DAZ massively supports M4 and doesn't support Dork -even though Dork was created by Zygote, the forerunner of DAZ.

If that's the only difference you see between M4 and Dork, I have to wonder-- when was the last time you had your eyes checked?

As for DAZ not "supporting" the Dork-- why should it?  The figure is old and outmoded.  Supporting Dork would make about as much sense as writing software for Windows 3.1.

 He still looks like Dork... or possibly something escaped from a wax museum. The render looks very plastic. I also suspect you could have done the same thing with M3 or M4 far quicker and with less work as there are far more morphs built in to the morph packs for you to use. In your comparison post, there's a crap-load of subtle changes that still need to be made, especially to the shape of the nose and chin.

Technology marches on.

My $.02

"They are just too low to be acceptable without postwork. "

Every figure NEEDS postwork, no matter how many polys!

"If that's the only difference you see between M4 and Dork, I have to wonder-- when was the last time you had your eyes checked?"

Wait while I feel for my white cane, -my seeing-eye dog just got run over by the bus!

"He still looks like Dork... or possibly something escaped from a wax museum. The render looks very plastic. I also suspect you could have done the same thing with M3 or M4 far quicker and with less work as there are far more morphs built in to the morph packs for you to use. In your comparison post, there's a crap-load of subtle changes that still need to be made, especially to the shape of the nose and chin."

Wait, don't let him near the stove!  He might melt!

"My $.02"

I challenge you to put up your money and do the same figure I did with MY?
dph

Just for fun: BEHOLD ! The DORKMEISTER !

The Dork and M4 have the exact same grouping, so if you morph the Dork's body to be shaped like M4, you can easily borrow his rigging without much extra work.
This is not a hybrid. It's still 100% Dork mesh.

Skin is by PitKlad using VSS shader by BagginsBill.

And BTW, no, no postwork and this is the default headshape.

As to my doing the same with M?... this is your fight... I'm not that interested in spending the time creating a character that means nothing to me. If that means I don't have a place at the table... fine. I stand by my statements.

Quote - Just for fun:
BEHOLD ! The DORKMEISTER !

Now THAT is a dork render.  Nice work!

Sean Martin used to do some outrageously good work with the old guy, too.  

Quote - As to my doing the same with M?... this is your fight... I'm not that interested in spending the time creating a character that means nothing to me. If that means I don't have a place at the table... fine. I stand by my statements

Fine, forget it.
dph

PS: Dorkmiester looks good!  And he can wear M4 clothes as well.

Quote - As to my doing the same with M?... this is your fight... I'm not that interested in spending the time creating a character that means nothing to me. If that means I don't have a place at the table... fine. I stand by my statements.

Well, if everyone agreed, there wouldn't be a  mouth watering, blood pulsing, saliva spewing Debate, would there?  The world would then be a lot less fun...

noxiart

The Dorkmeister is Awesome!!

is this the 5 minute argument or the full 1/2 hour? - John Cleese

Quote - is this the 5 minute argument or the full 1/2 hour? - John Cleese

Yes, Fawlty Towers was funny!  Israel TV broadcast it too.

Well actually sometimes you can get away with no postwork other than tweaking the levels or gamma point.

I do think the older figures are still useable, it's just impractical in my opinion to compare a figure made so long ago with current figures in this way.

I produce a lot of images with little or no postwork. It can be done. I like to make Poser do most of the work the first time through. Newer people to Poserdom do not realize that back in the Posette and Dork days, there were hundreds of free facial and body morphs available. Traveler had tons of them on his website. The new generation of figures have few if any free facial or body morphs created by other users. I've always found that disappointing. Trekkiegirl made some for M4, and one of those morphs I use all the time (it's a chin fix). So that's one thing I miss about the days of Posette and Dork, the availablility of a wide range of I guess what would be termed third party morphs. But the current gen of figures are higher poly and have higher quality of textures available. But also advances in Lighting and Rendering make a difference as well as to how our images look now as compaired to the P4 days. And I really, really like that Dorkmeister! Great work!

I've always thought the Dork had a nice face shape. I think he could be very useful for medium distance renders. I like that Dorkmeister as well.

I'm constantly amazed at how ingenious people are. Kudos to all the tinkerers!

The problem with the older figures is lack of clothing. There used to be a lot in freestuff but not anymore. Perhaps with Crossdresser that can be fixed. Why don't you like M3 or M4?

Quote - The problem with the older figures is lack of clothing. There used to be a lot in freestuff but not anymore. Perhaps with Crossdresser that can be fixed. Why don't you like M3 or M4?

What's to like about them: They're bulky, cumbersome behemoths, and resource intensive!  In the world of 3D beyond Poser, poly count is considered of little or no importance.  What counts is quality of texture.  Dork with M3 textures seem to me to compares quite favorably with with the DAZ Jabberwockies:

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
dph

So M3 and M4 take longer to render or take more RAM, is that what you mean?

I'm mainly an animator. If a model doesn't look good with no post work, I won't use it, not up close anyway. I would use it as mentioned here, in the background or in crowd scenes but not for my main figures. You can dress dork up all you want in Michael's skin and clothes, but he still looks like a dork to me. :)

However I can see the appeal to this if you are on an older system and don't have the resources to handle the higher poly figures. And I bet you can easily put several dozen dorks in a scene with no real problems. Try doing that with several dozen M4s.

Quote - So M3 and M4 take longer to render or take more RAM, is that what you mean?

To answer that question Drifterlee, let me first ask you a series of questions:

1. Which Poser did you start out with?  Was it P4?
2. Which DAZ figure did you start out with?  Was it Vicky 2?
3. How many morphs, and how much clothes did you get gratis with you first Daz figure as to that that came with the Default Poser figures?
4. Why should the Daz figures, in light of Daz's proverbial policy of being more tightfisted than a Pawn Broker, be so valued, and the default Poser so dispised?
   dph

Yeah, before I upgraded my RAM, my computer choked on two V4s and one M4 in a scene. Was supposed to have been a grouping of fantasy warriors. So that was the figures, their clothes, the textures, and all the props and background set.  My computer said, "No way, nope, not gonna!". Dphoadley is right about other 3D industries (like video gaming), going for lower poly figures and good textures with fast real-time rendering. Poserdom has been going the direction of both hipoly figures and hirez textures. I say, each to their own.Dphoadley likes the P4 figures, and I figure he's not alone.  I use the newer figures and wish vainly for more third party morphs (I'm not  modeler so I can't make morphs. Best I did in Hexagon was make some pots and bottles and now I've forgotten how I did it.)

I started with Poser 4, but had no extra stuff - or money to buy stuff - so all my renders looked like plastic. especially the hair. I have Daz stuff because of their Plantium Club $1.99 stuff is affordable. Things in freestuff are now for Vicky and Mike, too. It's hard to get clothes for the original figures. Good people to ask would be the merchants. Why do they like Vicky over Judy, for example. I'm not a modeler so maybe some figures are easy to model for. Some people say the joints are better.  Personally, I love Apollo but you don't see much of him anymore either. Depends on what you like and what works for you best.

I'm still partial to the P5s (Don/Judy) as the best of the included with Poser figures. Face room compatible which is very nice. They do have flaws though and break down pretty quick with expressions applied. The eyes don't fit well in the sockets.

"Dphoadley is right about other 3D industries (like video gaming), going for lower poly figures and good textures with fast real-time rendering."

I know personally that there is a fully rigged, texture female figure, With a dynamic dress, and all, who's lower poly than Posette, and sells for over $300 at Turbo-Squid.  And even more, her textures are only Half textures, as both halves of her body have been set up to mirror each other.  She's made for animation in the Character Studio of 3ds Max.  From personal experience, it's easier to pose Posette than it is to Pose her!
When I was remapping Miki 2, I had a hard time trying to pose her, because her poly count is ponderous too. 
Terai Yuki 2, on the other hand, is almost as easy to pose as Posette.  If someone could make some 'Realistic' morphs for Terai Yuki, in the same way that Daz mad for Aiko 3, then she'd be a real winner, especially now that I've made her V3 MAT posable.
dph

Quote - Yeah, before I upgraded my RAM, my computer choked on two V4s and one M4 in a scene. Was supposed to have been a grouping of fantasy warriors. So that was the figures, their clothes, the textures, and all the props and background set.  My computer said, "No way, nope, not gonna!". Dphoadley is right about other 3D industries (like video gaming), going for lower poly figures and good textures with fast real-time rendering. Poserdom has been going the direction of both hipoly figures and hirez textures. I say, each to their own.Dphoadley likes the P4 figures, and I figure he's not alone.  I use the newer figures and wish vainly for more third party morphs (I'm not  modeler so I can't make morphs. Best I did in Hexagon was make some pots and bottles and now I've forgotten how I did it.)

Yeah, my laptop chokes on three Gen4 figures. I can render the scene... once. Then I get that annoying texture not found message. My new I7 desktop, with Win7 and 8 gigs and a dedicated video card flies through the renders with five or six gen4 figures. It's staggering fast when I use Hiro and Aiko toon (which is mostly what I use for my animations).

Runtimedna has morphs for TY2 I think.

Quote - ...And I bet you can easily put several dozen dorks in a scene with no real problems....

If you have done that, you have created a Committee, which always means you have a real problem! :lol:

Billy-T has some nice Terai Yuki morphs called the Custom Set here in the Marketplace. 

The TY2 morphs at RuntimeDNA are 70% off until the end of the month

Is Posette from Poser 4 and Judy for Poser 5? Did you remap Posette to take V3 textures? I forgot which ones you did, Dave.

Quote - > Quote - ...And I bet you can easily put several dozen dorks in a scene with no real problems....

If you have done that, you have created a Committee, which always means you have a real problem! :lol:

Billy-T has some nice Terai Yuki morphs called the Custom Set here in the Marketplace. 

Hi W&W, welcome to My version of Monty Python's Flying Circus!!
dph
PS: "He's not the Messiah!"

Quote - Is Posette from Poser 4 and Judy for Poser 5? Did you remap Posette to take V3 textures? I forgot which ones you did, Dave.

You know I did!  You made a render of PosetteV3 in your gallery: Risen from the Dead (For Dave Hoadley)
Of course that was all of TWO years ago, and a lot has happened since then, so I guess you could easily have forgotten.  Still one of my favorite renders of her!
dph

That's right, duh, glad you liked it. I lost all that stuff when my drive died. I will have to reinstall Poser 5 to get the P5 nude woman. It's not in Poser 6. I do have EJ from 3Dream to use with her, though. Will have to reinstall Poser 4, too, to use her.

dphoadley@**drifterlee
I'm sending you my remapped version of the P5 nude woman.
dph
**

I didn't like Judy at all right out of the box, but I've seen some really nice morphs of her ;o). I skipped Poser 5 tho, so I'd never used her. Went right from P4 to P6.

Laurie

LaurieA, would you like my remapped P5 Judy?  If so, PM me with you email address.
dph

PS: Anybody else want her, DO THE SAME!!!

Nah, I'll likely never use her :o). But thanks anyway :o).

I rarely use Vicky...lol.

Laurie

This thread is almost as nostalgic as Dork/Judy themselves.  Who would have figured I could take this long of a break and come back and the same thread would be on the front page? 

Poser 4, Mike 2.

No free content at the time.  Now the figure itself is free, as is V2, Steph, Steph 3, Aiko 3, Victoria 3, Mike 3, Hiro, Victoria 4, Mike 4, Aiko 4, Hiro 4 and several others.  Hardly tight fisted, is it?

Because Mike 2 is far superior* to Dork in every way.  And I'll take the Pepsi challenge on that.  Also, I can get Mike 2 to look like me.  I can get Dork to look something vaguely resembling a human.

*Superior - RAM usage does not denote the superiority or inferiority of anything.  If it did, we'd all be using 16k Spectrums or 1k ZX81s.