Quote - IMO, better to find the right balance between perfect bending and clothing makers not supporting Antonia due to complexity.  This seems to be the direction you have gone.  I was just posting to back you up.

Thanks! That's how I understood your post, and I appreciate it. But obviously, now that I have your attention, I will have to bother you with this kind of question.

Quote - Leaving the additional JCM as an injection add-on allows you to get a final build ready, without slamming the door on improvements to bending.

I think that's a fantastic idea, actually. As followers of this thread will have noticed, I'm a big proponent of making things as modular as possible. But I have to admit I hadn't really thought of splitting the JCMs into built-ins and add-ons.

Quote - If you aren't careful, you'll someday find yourself still working on it while DAZ releases a new Victoria that includes Antonia's better features (like the hip configuration, IMO).  Then you'll be playing follow the leader.

I wouldn't mind that too much, actually. I started modeling my own figure because I didn't like the ones that were around at the time and didn't feel like hoping and waiting for better ones. In the meantime, DAZ managed to publish a figure (V4) with a decent mesh, so they've already caught up in that respect. If they let themselves be inspired by Antonia's rig and the more realistic shaping, I think that would be a great outcome for most people - except maybe those who have a genuine interest in being competition to DAZ.

That said, I'm getting a bit bored of JCMs and would really, really like to start playing with expressions.

Quote - I wouldn't mind that too much, actually. I started modeling my own figure because I didn't like the ones that were around at the time and didn't feel like hoping and waiting for better ones. In the meantime, DAZ managed to publish a figure (V4) with a decent mesh, so they've already caught up in that respect. If they let themselves be inspired by Antonia's rig and the more realistic shaping, I think that would be a great outcome for most people - except maybe those who have a genuine interest in being competition to DAZ.

That's very generous thinking on your part.  And you're right in that it wouldn't necessarily be bad for the community.  I just figured that after the amount of work you and others have invested, you would like to maximize add-on support for Antonia.

Quote - I just figured that after the amount of work you and others have invested, you would like to maximize add-on support for Antonia.

Yes, that would be neat. I'm not sure how much support I can realistically expect for her, though. Time will tell...

I guess what I meant is that "beating the competition" is less important to me than a "happy ending", so to say. It would be a pity if people (myself included) lost interest in Antonia before she had progressed to a stable, usable version. I think for most of the people involved it has been as much a learning experience as anything else, but we all still want to make all kinds of interesting renders with Antonia eventually. Personally, I just hate to leave things unfinished.

Of course a big part of the interest in this project stems from the fact that she looks and bends more realistic than most of the figures made by the "big players". If that went away, she'd be no more than yet another Poser figure. So I definitely see your point.

I have most definitely learned a great deal, and it's been really nice to see the community come together and contribute the way they have. :)

They might use the double hip rig for V5  :biggrin:  It is a good thing to push the technology to grow.

I think Antonia bends well enough, and there can always be Antonia updates or other peoples versions of her under the commons thing.

Quote - I think Antonia bends well enough, and there can always be Antonia updates or other peoples versions of her under the commons thing.

Well in that spirit, here's The Plan:

I'll finish the new knee JCMs, do a little cleaning up of the elbow bend and add JCMs for the ankles. Those bend pretty well now, I think, but there's a small but unsightly bulge that I can't seem to get rid of. All these are fairly simple since - unlike the ones on the shoulders and thighs - they don't need to interact with other JCMs.

I will then release version 0.9.122, which will be the proposed final word on the "core" body rig. By core I mean anything that's not internal to the hands, feet or head. If nothing really bad is revealed during beta-testing, that core rig will become official, and I'll promise not to make any more functional changes to it. That means that, like Aanascent suggested, any further JCMs for these parts would be add-ons.

Once that's done, I will start some serious work on expression morphs and a decent face-rig. So her hands and feet will stay unfinished for a little while longer, but I think the face is more important.

Sounds good to me!

I think that third party injections are definitely the way to go for certain parts of Antonia, then those that are concerned about said bits can do what they want with them. Just remember, it took Corvas and not Daz to get V4 looking the way we wanted.

I'm looking forward to seeing what I can do with Antonia's face morphs. From what I've seen of Cage's characters, it looks as though there's a great deal of versatility in there already. With V4 I quickly found the limits of what I could do. When I wanted her to look like someone, I could get close but not close enough. From what I've seen of Antonia however, I think I could really go to town.

Once Saintfox gets the make-up done I'll really be able to get cracking!

CHEERS!

Cage,
Thanks for the explanation of the script and its use.  I sent you an email with the mesh for you to examine. I'm more alert today and I checked my mesh, and discovered the centreline has an X position of 0.004858 therefore there is a small asymmetry, which although not visible in Poser, is quite large in numerical terms. I apologise if I caused any concern regarding your script. My mesh is clearly in error. I will try to recenter the mesh and then run the script as you described.

odf,

I am following along with the suggestions about Antonia and her rig. I think it is a good idea to have a version with about the current level of complexity, and then optional add ins for extra-extra realistic joints as suggested, like a super detailing kit. I don't consider myself particularly knowledgeable about making clothing to fit a figure, so I won't try to influence you on 'what's best for clothing makers' point of view, since I'm not qualified to do so. but just my personal preference, for what it's worth. 

Cheers

Ian

Hmm,

Sounds like you're working things out. I look forward to further developments.

CHEERS!

Quote - I will then release version 0.9.122, which will be the proposed final word on the "core" body rig. By core I mean anything that's not internal to the hands, feet or head. If nothing really bad is revealed during beta-testing, that core rig will become official, and I'll promise not to make any more functional changes to it. That means that, like Aanascent suggested, any further JCMs for these parts would be add-ons.

This does sound like a good approach.  :thumbupboth:

Quote - From what I've seen of Cage's characters, it looks as though there's a great deal of versatility in there already.

Yes!  It's wonderful!  This figure simply handles well, and by that I don't merely mean the joints.  The joints are great; I can now pose a figure without wanting to tear my hair out because the bending makes a lot of hard work on a character seem pointless.  :lol:  But Antonia is very malleable, too.  She morphs well.  Things like only one eyelash layer and separate actors for inner mouth parts really help with the face-shaping process.  The mesh and figure-build are both very well thought out and executed.  I could go on gushing about it.  :laugh:

Quote - Cage,
Thanks for the explanation of the script and its use.  I sent you an email with the mesh for you to examine. I'm more alert today and I checked my mesh, and discovered the centreline has an X position of 0.004858 therefore there is a small asymmetry, which although not visible in Poser, is quite large in numerical terms. I apologise if I caused any concern regarding your script. My mesh is clearly in error. I will try to recenter the mesh and then run the script as you described.

You prompted me to double-check my code, which is always a good thing, IMO.  :thumbupboth:  I hope the asymmetries are easily repaired.  Let me know if I can help at all.

I'm still going to wait till the final version, but, I'll definitely work on some characters for Antonia when I get chance.

CHEERS!

Hi all,

I've been away for a couple of weeks, and am just catching up on the thread again. So forgive me if some of my posts refer to rather old issues.

Antonia-121-BLANK.cr2

I have uploaded a morph-stripped version of Antonia-121 (Hi Res), to the "Antonia Base Sets" section of the developers site. This may be of use to those making conforming clothing.

All targetGeom (morph) and valueParm (FBM) channels have been deleted from this cr2. The only material it contains is "Preview". The figure is in a zero pose, and all the "initValue" (Restore) lines for translate and rotate channels are set to zero. Group nodes for transforms have been left in, all other group nodes have been deleted.

odf,

Re using magnets to deform the eyelids to fit the cornea.

Quote - Err, when I said parented to the eyeball, I meant wired up to follow the movements of the eyeball. It would need to influence the head actor (and only the head actor), though, so it'd probably have to be parented to that.

I think it would work best with the Base and Zone parented to the eyeball (the Mag is parented to the Base by default). The actor or actors to be influenced by the magnet are specified by "deformTarget" lines in the Mag. This  should to edited in a text editor to exclude the eyeball itself from the influence of the magnet.

Blush overlays are done and should be uploaded by Sunday morning . Eyeliners and basic eye makeup should be ready by Sunday night, just cleaning them up a bit first. Lip overlays should be ready by the middle of next week.

Cool!

I know I'm waiting till all the hard work is done, but that's only because I don't have the foggiest idea how to do what you're all doing. I'm handy with a morph dial though so there will eventually be something from me to show you.

CHEERS!

I'm almost ready to upload Version 0.9.122. Apart from the improved knee JCMs and the new ankle JCMs, I've made sure all the rotation init values are at 0. If you think there's anything else in need of fixing in the CR2s, let me know.

I take it all the old poses will still work?

CHEERS!

Quote - I take it all the old poses will still work?

CHEERS!

Yep! All the poses will still work. Just doing some finishing touches.

Great!

I'm just thinking, Antonia does actually look Australian, was that intentional?

CHEERS!

odf,

Quote - If you think there's anything else in need of fixing in the CR2s, let me know.

In the 121 cr2 the translation dials are unhidden for all actors. This is unusual, and I think it is a bad idea as it makes it too easy to translate an actor by mistake. Normally it is only the hip and eyes that have the translation dials visible, and I think that is the best way.

I remember we had a discussion about translation limits being forced at zero for all actors in a previous version of Antonia. I argued that it was safe to un-force them, one of the reasons was precisely because the translate dials would be hidden. The eyes are a special case, because unlike any other actors, they often need to be translated to accommodate a head morph. For the eyes only, the benefits seem to outweigh the risks, though even there it is open to debate, in V4 eye translation is hidden. Of course the hip  needs to be translatable. Dials  in the goal actors of IK chains will automatically become visible when the IK chains are turned on.

If it is felt that it might be desirable to have all the translate dials visible in some circumstances, then a pose file could be made to do this. I would be happy to supply such a pose if anyone thinks it would be useful.

bagginsbill & odf,

A suggestion for the 0.9.122 version of Antonia. That ghost (no geometry) actors be added "lCornea" and "rCornea", and that these should be children of the respective eyes. I'm thinking about the BBEyes, and making it easy to integrate them into Antonia. Even if the BBEye geometry ultimately ends up as an integral part of some future "Antonia*.obj" it might be useful to have an easy way to test and develop the eyes with the current figure. If the BBEyes end up as an add-on it is even more desirable to have an easy way of adding them to Antonia.

If the BBEyes were added as smart-props parented to the head it would be necessary, or at least desirable, to not only to make the original eyes invisible, but also to hide the original eyes from the menus. Another problem in the scenario where the eyes were smart-propped directly to the head is that any pose effecting the translation or rotation of the original eyes would not affect the BBEyes, neither would MAT poses for the original eyes work on the prop eyes.

On the other hand, smart-propping the BBEyes to the original eyes would solve the problem of existing translation, rotation, and scale poses, but would not help with MAT poses. There would also be a greater potential for confusion in the end user having to rotate the original eyes, but needing to apply materials to the prop eyes.

Adding ghost "lCornea" and "rCornea" actors to the cr2 would solve all these potential problems, as it would allow the BBEye geometry to be injected directly into the existing eye actors. All existing pose files would work without need of modification, MAT poses would need to be UV compatible, but as the BBEyes are planed to use the same UVs as the current Antonia, this is not a problem. The end user would only be confronted with one set of eyes. No additional pose would need to be supplied to hide the original eyes.

The technique of geometry injection has now been well tested, not only by myself, but by those who have used my Geom Swap package for MJs UVs. Of course, as they are bagginsbill's eyes his opinion on how they should be implemented in Antonia is paramount. But I hope that both bagginsbill and odf will consider this suggestion. The suggested names "lCornea" and "rCornea" are not important "lEyeCover" and "rEyeCover" would serve just as well. As the geometry will be addded via a pz2 the ghost actors could be hidden from the menus by default, injecting the geometry and unhiding the ghost actors could be done with the same file. I would of course be willing to help in setting up the files to do all the above.

Apologies for being so long winded!

Hmm, interesting add-on, but won't it only work with the current version?

CHEERS!

Quote - I'm almost ready to upload Version 0.9.122. Apart from the improved knee JCMs and the new ankle JCMs, I've made sure all the rotation init values are at 0. If you think there's anything else in need of fixing in the CR2s, let me know.

The collars don't scale as well as the other actors.  I'm not sure that should be changed, though, since it would require changing the twist axis for the collar.

I'll bet there was a good reason which was discussed on one of the pages of this thread which I never read, but what about Taper dials?  They don't even seem to be in the .cr2.  I'm not sure this represents something truly in need of repair, however.

Lesbentley has a good point, about the translate dials, IMO.

Quote - Hmm, interesting add-on, but won't it only work with the current version?

This actually raises a question which odf has maybe-sort-of answered.

Odf, will the vertex order of any of the actors be changing in a potential future release?  It's probably hard to commit on that point, as yet.  Perhaps the main concern would be the head.  If the vertex order doesn't change, it's been shown how character morphs can be rescued in spite of shaping changes to an actor (inject as morph deltas or use old actor shape as a correction morph).  But if the vertex order and shape both change, it could be hard to rescue any character tweaks for Antonia.

If an actor requires both vertex order or vertex count changes and shaping changes, I could create a TDMT transfer file between the old and new versions.  This would work best if any actor with changes to vertex order or count could be released in some form which retains the old shape.  Then a comparison file can easily be created and accurate morph transfers can be accomplished.

If the vertex order won't change or an old-shape version could be released for any vertex order changes, people could go ahead and start making characters with confidence that the results of their efforts won't be lost when a new version of Antonia is released.

I probably need my eyes tested again, but from the  picture supplied by Slochez, I can't see any difference between the "before" and the "after" side of the image.

Perhaps it would have been a good idea if Slochez had explained what this item does. What it does is to hide the toecap mesh by scaling it down and placing it in the heel. At least it is in the heel when the toes are unbent. When they bend upwards the toecap protrudes from the bottom of the heel, when they bend down it protrudes from the ankle. This seems to be the same problem that a recent morph by odf to do the same thing had (flagged by Cage). Well they say "great mindes think alike"! 

I guess both odf's and this morph probably do improve the way the feet look in preview, but I think a better solution is to go into the Render Settings and set Transparency Display to "Actual". Personally I am not bothered how they look in preview, as the toecaps won't display when rendered.

[edit]
P.S. In the above image transparency has been turned off for the toecaps.

Quote -
I probably need my eyes tested again, but from the  picture supplied by Slochez, I can't see any difference between the "before" and the "after" side of the image.

It looks like the toes have been morphed somewhat, in the preview image.  That was my assumption.  The big toe, particularly, seems to have been re-shaped a bit, toward the tip.

I can see it in the others too, now that I look.  The toe tips are flattened slightly.  It's especially evident when looking at the toenails.  The toes on the left look a bit more like my own toes than those on the right.  Heh.

I like the toe morphs.  :thumbupboth:

Quote - It looks like the toes have been morphed somewhat, in the preview image.  That was my assumption.  The big toe, particularly, seems to have been re-shaped a bit, toward the tip.

Cage, you are right. I was so busy looking at the toecaps that I did not notice the change in the toes. Doh! 

Slochez,

My apologies to you, for misunderstanding the nature of your file.

What I am wondering now is, does your morph contain a new Toecaps-gone morph, or did you just have odf's Toecaps-gone morph expressed when your morph was saved, so that it became incorporated in the new morph?

It's easy to mix the FBM settings into a morph when creating morphs within Poser.  :lol:  I've had huge problems with that.

Which prompted me to write the attached Python script, which I keep in my Scripts menu.  It turns off all FBM's in the Body actor, memorizing the Body first.  Just run the script, make your morphs, then restore Body afterward.  I've found it quite useful.  Maybe it could help others.

Quote - It's easy to mix the FBM settings into a morph when creating morphs within Poser. I've had huge problems with that.

Yes, I have done that myself more that once, actually a lot more than once! Your script sounds like a great idea.

Hmm, yes,

All this is rather why I'm holding off doing anything with Antonia myself until odf decides that he's done with her.

Keep going though, especially if it enhances the final release.

CHEERS!

Awesome! Thanks for all the input. I'll just go through them topic-wise:

• hide translation dials: Excellent idea! Will do.

• 'ghost' actors for BB eye injection: As much as I hate 'future features', this one seems solid enough, and those extra actors shouldn't get in the way too much. So I'll add them.

• collar scaling and taper channels: I couldn't get the collars to scale well, so I won't try now. I didn't bother to work on the JPs for tapering since I don't really get how tapering works and what it's good for. If anyone has suggestions for better setups in either case, we can always turn them into add-ons first, and maybe by version 1.0 they'll have found their way into the cr2.

• vertex order: The vertex order is pretty much cast in stone at this point, and has been for a long time. The only sensible reason to change it would be a change in mesh topology, which won't happen before Antonia 2.

• toecaps gone morph: Oops! I forgot about that problem. Will make a better one. @Les: transparent things take up render time, so morphing the toecaps away might be useful in some situations.

• foot morphs: Very much appreciated! As I said earlier, I realize that Antonia's hands and feet need some attention, but I'll put that off since she really needs to learn how to emote now. So in the meantime, I'm thankful for any contributions that make her sausage-like digits look better.

Hi lesbently,

sorry for answering that late, but it was close to midnight ( in Germany where I live) when I posted those morphs and after that I went to sleep. I reshaped the toes and had odf's Toecaps-gone morph expressed while saving so that it became incorporated. I thougt about fixing it but then I thought that there were no more reasons to hide her feet :-). I´ll fix that issue and repost the morph asap.

Slightly OT: How do you create JCMs? I tied to use onboard tools in Poser 8 ,which seem to work well ...first .I used the morph brush but when copying the the morph target the result looks totally different.The thing is : I had to copy the morph target because when doing a second JCM the costom morph dial will be overwritten.Does anybody know what I mean? If not I will switch to the german "Antonia Schnack".

I'm still struggling with the ERC/JCM for the conforming clothing I tried to make for Antonia.  Below list my process.

Making JCM

1. Pose the figure with conforming clothing at a pose, for example, Left Thigh Kick at 30.
2. Export the part(s) of figure that may be covered by the part of the conforming clothing as OBJ.  It will be used as a reference.
3. Export the part corresponding to the bone of the conforming clothing to be morphed, for example, hip2, as OBJ.
4. Import the OBJs into a 3D modeling software, in my case, it is Blender.
5. Modify the part of the conforming clothing to be morphed.
6. Export the modified part as OBJ.
7. Extract the "v" lines from the original OBJ and the modified OBJ of the part morphed.  Convert it to CSV file.
8. Import the CSV to spreadsheet.  So that sheet1 contains the original values, sheet2 contains the corresponding modified values.
9. Setup sheet3 to contains the deltas.
   Example:
   d 0        =Morph.A1-Base.A1 =Morph.B1-Base.B1 =Morph.C1-Base.C1
   d =b1+1    =Morph.A2-Base.A2 =Morph.B2-Base.B2 =Morph.C2-Base.C2
10. Export the sheet that contains the deltas to CSV.
11. Use the information Cage provided in Antonia-121_thighERC.txt to create the morph channel.
12. Edit the deltas CSV to make it into the deltas section.

I wonder if I'm doing the right thing.  Any suggestion?

odf, I wonder if which angle I should pick for the pose in my step 1 will provide the best result.  Should I pick Left Thigh Kick at -60?

http://www.sharecg.com/v/39850/Poser/Shorts-for-Antonia

Cheers

Ian 

Amy,

Before anything let me say I have made exactly one clothing item to date ( as immediately above )which includes JCM, so I'm still learning, and may well have things mixed up.....

I think -60 is a good choice if you are doing a JCM for Antonia's Kick movement. This is because at that angle the morph will be set, by the JCM mechanism, at a value of 1 if you use the same ratio as odf used for Antonia's JCM's there ( 0.016667  which is 1/60th).

I made my JCM morphs, firtly by using 'Morphing Clothes' application to transfer Antonia's JCM's into my conforming shorts, but as a dial up morph without JCM at that point. This was a partial solution, and I then used Posers morph tools to fix up the morph which the shorts were conformed to Antonia, with her leg bent. I then deleted Antonia from the scene, leaving me with a pair of shorts which still had the combined morphs ( Xferred from Antonia, plus custom from the morph tool) I then exported the affected groups from the shorts as morph targets ( to combine the morphs into one ). and use this as the target for my shorts JCM for that movement.

I had to do this for each JCM I wanted. If your clothing has more than one group then you need to export each affected part, for each JCM morph you create.  eg if you have hip2 and lThigh involved in left kick, then both of these parts need a left Kick JCM morph.

Cheers

Ian

I'm just glad they're out!

I'll put them through their paces later and see how I go. Don't worry if there is any pokethough at this stage, I'm sure any that is there can be postworked.

I can't wait to get the final version of Antonia and some make-up textures. Then I'll see just who I can morph her into.

CHEERS!

As promised I redid my feet morphs and added a hand morph. Files use the classic injection technology and were created using PLH. Grab the new morphs here.

Hooray!  The shorts are released!  :woot: :thumbupboth:

Quote - I then deleted Antonia from the scene, leaving me with a pair of shorts which still had the combined morphs ( Xferred from Antonia, plus custom from the morph tool) I then exported the affected groups from the shorts as morph targets ( to combine the morphs into one ). and use this as the target for my shorts JCM for that movement.

You can make the process simpler by just spawning a new morph target while your morphs are set as they would be for export.  There shouldn't be any need to export at this stage unless you want to edit the morph in another program.  Unless I'm missing something (which wouldn't be unusual.  :lol:)

Quote - - collar scaling and taper channels: I couldn't get the collars to scale well, so I won't try now. I didn't bother to work on the JPs for tapering since I don't really get how tapering works and what it's good for. If anyone has suggestions for better setups in either case, we can always turn them into add-ons first, and maybe by version 1.0 they'll have found their way into the cr2.

• vertex order: The vertex order is pretty much cast in stone at this point, and has been for a long time. The only sensible reason to change it would be a change in mesh topology, which won't happen before Antonia 2.

IIRC, improving the collar scaling would require changing the twist axis to make it parallel with that of the shoulder.  I may be mistaken.  Setting up scaling using Poser's joint editor has always confused me.  :lol:  Tapering can be useful if you scale one actor but not a neighbor actor and you need to tweak the results.  Possibly this could be useful in the neck, where it might (or, actually, might not) be useful when head scaling is used.

Very good news, about the vertex order!  :woot:

CHEERS!

CHEERS!

Cage: I'm afraid you may be right about the collar scaling. I should have known this earlier on. I don't think I have the energy at this point to experiment with new axis orders, but if someone sets this up in a way that will not require too many changes in the existing JCMs, I may still include it in the "official" version of Antonia.

If you look at the "bulky" pose I made (under Poses -> Antonia -> ScalingPoses, I think), you'll see how I worked around that issue: instead of scaling the chest and collars up in x and z, I scaled the whole figure up uniformly and then scaled everything down in the y direction. Not too elegant, but it worked.

Quote - Cage: I'm afraid you may be right about the collar scaling. I should have known this earlier on. I don't think I have the energy at this point to experiment with new axis orders, but if someone sets this up in a way that will not require too many changes in the existing JCMs, I may still include it in the "official" version of Antonia.

If you look at the "bulky" pose I made (under Poses -> Antonia -> ScalingPoses, I think), you'll see how I worked around that issue: instead of scaling the chest and collars up in x and z, I scaled the whole figure up uniformly and then scaled everything down in the y direction. Not too elegant, but it worked.

I really don't think it's a problem at all.  Scaling the full body is usually a better method, aside from the head, which needs to scale to account for height, and you've covered that well.  The only reason I'm on about the matter is that I tried the old P4 Figure Height functions with Antonia, and she handled remarkably well, considering that the feature isn't meant to work with post-P4 figures.  If the collars handled as well as the other body parts, Antonia might be the only recent Poser figure to be able to use Figure Height (possibly in the company of Apollo).

I don't think the rotation order for the collars would need to change.  The endpoint would have to move, IIRC, which would alter the angle of the twist axis for the collar.  (I may be wrong about that.  I should test in the joint editor.)  I believe, for proper scaling, that the twist axis should be parallel with that of the shoulder.  I could be wrong.  But changing the twist axis could require altering the collar joint handling, and it handles so well now that I don't think the complication really merits the change, personally.

If you scale the shoulder instead of the collar, it handles quite well.

Quote - Here is a render of Ian's shorts being put through their paces. As you can see, they haven't fared entirely well.

To be fair, Ian's trying something much more complex than I did.  My shorts have no thigh geometries, so there's no need for thigh JCM's.  Mine are also kind of a cheat, in that I derived them from Antonia's base geometry, which may make the Morphing Clothes transfer of JCM's a bit easier and more accurate.

I think Ian's gone out of town for a bit but, as I understand it, he plans to continue to develop the figure when he returns.  He wanted to get them out there for folks to try, before disappearing from the forum for awhile.  (Apologies to Ian, if I'm speaking out-of-hand in mentioning this.  )

Roger,

You are quite right, my shorts still have some serious problems that need to be resolved. I was determined to release something , and maybe it would have been better to hang onto them a while longer and resolve more of those problems before release. Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to do anything for a week  because of work commitments, so hanging on would have meant another week and maybe more. I think work well in some poses, and pretty horribly in others, as your example shows.
I will probably start again from scratch, now I know which parts worked and which didn't, even down to the basic mesh design.

added  Oh I just read Cage's reply, and very generous it is too ;-)  Your fine Cage so long as you don't tell them my credit card number  LOL.

Cheers

Ian

Ian Porter,

Thanks for the shorts.

Whilst your shorts do have some problems, I think it is a good result for a first try at a conforming item.

Thank you Les, yes it's my first conforming clothing item ( unless you count horse harnesses as clothing and that was so long ago I forgot how I actually did that. I think Bloodsong gave me a ready made Cr2), and definitely my first dip into the world of JCM ERC and suchlike scary things.

I think Roger was quite right to point out the minor poke through above though.. I hadn't actually tried that pose. Poor Antonia looks like she's split her pants LOL.  ( ok major huge poke through ) ;-)

Cheers

Ian