I can proudly say that I have been with Poser from the very beginning.  In fact I was one of the first people to post on the first official Poser forum (Remember the PFO with Willow and Ian?)
Back then it was our little secret, mostly a toy, but also something very unique that finally gave artists the ability to create 3D human forms.  (Back then they were barely human forms) LOL

And as we saw our little program grow and improve over the years, we watched our little secret software become more and more popular....just look at this place and you can see that for yourself.

Poser has changed hands a few times over the years until it finally ended up under the "Smith-Micro" banner.  I'm sure this decision was largely based on financial concerns.  And we have seen Poser go from a home-grown piece of software to a program that is just one of many in a large stable of programs that SM has to offer.

There are a few things that turn me off about Smith-Micro (and I'll make my apologies later), the first thing is their website, it looks so....corporate.  Like you are looking at a website for Home Depot or Priceline.  It's very cold and un-artistic looking, the exact opposite of say Renderosity or Daz.

And then if you want to find Poser, you have to search out amongst the many other products, some not even graphics software, to find it.

When all this really hit home for me was during the recent contest for Poser Pro 2010.  The announcement was made that the top 30? videos (I can't remember the correct number right now) will win the latest version of Poser Pro.   Well up until the very last day there were only like 12 entrees, and I don't think the final count of contestants topped 30.  I was wondering "What Happened?  Where is everyone?   I was going to post a message here asking why more people are not entering, but damn if I was going to spoil my chances of winning!  ;-)

But the point is, I know there should have been a lot more of you that would have entered if you knew about it or could find it on the website.  I think the rules for the contest were hidden two pages deep into the site.  I had to bookmark it so I could find it again easily.  So that's when I got the feeling that our favorite little 3D rendering program has gotten swallowed up and lost in the vastness that is Smith-Micro....and to add to the confusion, Content Paradise is kind of a sister site (I really don't know any of the behind the scenes stuff about this) where both sites have totally branched away from Daz 3D, the makers of our favorite human meshes.

So we have Poser being lost in the shuffle AND divorcing itself from the main models that most customers use with it!

So I apologize to Smith-Micro, I know that you are probably far from the giant greedy corporate machine I make you out to be, but in the perfect world our beloved Poser would have probably done much better for itself if it was taken over by DAZ 3D - That would have been a marriage made in heaven and I think both consumers and it's creators would have benefited much better.

Well that's my 2 cents,  I just wanted to vent my emotions and concerns for my favorite piece of software that has become so much a part of my life.   And for awhile I was just using Daz Studio, but I've decided to come back to Poser for now...  Sorry,  I strayed. 

The explanation for lack of videos is simple.  Poser is a great tool for animation,
but it's a well-established fact that only 12 people actually use it for animation.
Thus it's not at all surprising that only 12 videos showed up in the contest.  :)

Another reason is probably that a lot of people who would otherwise have made videos were already positioned to get the upgrade for $50. And if others were like me, I also didn't enter because I assumed there would be zillions of entries.

And for the record, I have no problem whatsoever that Poser is owned by a relatively big company.

Quote - The explanation for lack of videos is simple.  Poser is a great tool for animation,
but it's a well-established fact that only 12 people actually use it for animation.
Thus it's not at all surprising that only 12 videos showed up in the contest.  :)

no, there was never any chance that daz would buy poser.  even autodesk wouldn't buy it,
as they had too many probs of their own at the time IMVHO.

I didn't realize a animation would count, had I, perhaps I would have tried. As it was, posting myself in a video was not worth the 50 bucks, and be thankful for that, could have caused nightmares for people.

1.  I would NOT show my ugly mug in a video, no matter what !

2.  I was primed for the beta-tester existing-user upgrade whatever, anyhow...

3.  If DAZ3D bought over Poser, won't the anti-trust investigators jump in ? ( ok, ok, I am just making a lame joke ! )

4.  Maybe Smith Micro is marketing its stable of creativity software a little too blandly, yes.  A little less "Suit" would be welcomed.

Kind of seems to me like it's suffering from something.  :lol:  Poser 8 is the most uncooperative piece of software to which I've ever had an unfortunate addiction.  :lol:  I'm still getting crashes and lockups and the SM help desk gave up on me and closed my incident ticket.  :crying:

So something's gone wrong, somewheres....

Ok first let me clear up some numbers here. There were supposed to be 25 winners, not 30. In the end there were 34 entries for 25 prizes and since the pool was so small, this big bad corporation decided that, oh heck, let all 34 of them win a copy! Also, The night before the closing of the contest YouTube locked all voting and uploading for a period of a couple hours for maintenance. This might have affected entries as well.

And Infinity10, your mug couldn't possibly have been worse than mine! :tt2:

I didn't mind people didn't take the time to enter the competition, this gave all of us a who did the best chance to win.

Quote - The explanation for lack of videos is simple.  Poser is a great tool for animation,
but it's a well-established fact that only 12 people actually use it for animation.
Thus it's not at all surprising that only 12 videos showed up in the contest.  :)

I do believe your statement may shed some light on why people didn't bother to enter. they completely misunderstood the competition. The only thing you had to do is enter a video in which you say 'I'm a poser', filming yourself. Some did some more effort, but most simply did that.

Quote - Is Poser suffering from big corporate take over?

I don't think that's the problem at all. We're used to poser being taken over by whosoever.   Imo, the loss of interest in Poser has a completely different reason. It's the mediocre new versions being released. I did get Poser 8 for $1.99 though the facebook action. I did get Poser Pro through the competition, that doesn't sound like things a big corporate take over will produce. But in all honesty, if I would not have got this deal and won the prize, I would have never purchased Poser 8 or Pro 2010. There's just not enough in it to validate it as a true new release. Yes, there are some new gimmicks, but substantially there isn't that much new. The wow factor has gone from Poser updates since version 6.

When you have Poser 6 and buy Pro 2010 and skip the ones inbetween it feels like you've bought the next version of Poser. Neither Poser 7, Pro 1, or 2010 feels like a full blown new version, the look like inbetween updates, half done releases, depending on gimmicks rather then earthshakking new stuff.

Poser is in need of something that can take it to the next level. Rendering improvements, new library, a new UI (that isn't that new at all), improved/new rigging, normal mapping and so on, aren't exactly taking poser to the next level, they're just maintenance. IDL is a good new feature, but only one of the very few new additions since Poser 6.

Poser needs something enticing again, something stunning, it lacks that. All the maintenance is needed, but instead of investing time in little gimmicks, they should push poser ahead again. Make it outstanding again, make it a winner again.

It was a limited competition, not everyone has the ability to film & upload a video, I certainly don't, which is why I didn't enter.

The email stated "Tell the world about your Poser pride for your chance to win a copy of Poser Pro 2010! Grab your camera, or fire up your webcam now and record a video of yourself saying "I'm a Poser" to win!" It didn't mention animation & as I don't have a webcam or any other videoing method, I didn't investigate or enter, & I bet I am not the only one.

Okay so I guess part of the problem with the contest is that some of you are camera shy and some of you are just shy of one camera.

And aeilkema you are correct about the lack of improvements, enhancements and new features.
But again, that could be that be part of the corporate "lost in the shuffle" syndrome.
If it were still a home-grown software with a small DEDICATED staff of designers and code writers, I think we would be seeing more of those enhancements and fixes.  Along with fresh new ideas.

I get the feeling that they just want to push the next version out the door to make some more money.  And as was already mentioned, not even fixing the older versions first, just moving on to the next version with a minimal amount of hoopla advertising.
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I had the competition email but assumed there would be well more than 30 entering so didn't put myself to shame trying to compete. I also wasn't sure when the competition was ending and so didn't want to miss out on the offers.

As it was, the offer to buy Poser Pro and then get a free update to 2010 only lasted until 2010 came out a couple of days ago so whereas I now have two licences, if I'd left it later or until the results of the competition then I could have lost out and only been able to get 2010.

Quote - I get the feeling that they just want to push the next version out the door to make some more money.  And as was already mentioned, not even fixing the older versions first, just moving on to the next version with a minimal amount of hoopla advertising.

I'm hoping that's not the case at all, but looking at what's happening it may well be so. I know E-on follows this kind of strategy with Vue, it's the main reason I stopped buying Vue and returned to Bryce. Before we can say anything with certainty we have to wait and see what Poser 9 will bring.

No problems with Smith Micro here. Seems like the service releases are prompt and frequent, and the $50 upgrade to Pro 2010 was less than I was expecting.

Quote -
Thus it's not at all surprising that only 12 videos showed up in the contest.  :)

There was a Contest?  :blink:

EDIT DOH!  It was a little box on the side of the e-mail-I read right past it... :sad:

I 've no problems with SM's handling of Poser, but the CP website/marketplace is only a shadow of what it was two years ago.  Many of the vendors/brokerages I used to buy from aren't there any more....

I would have entered, but couldn't find out how :( - I looked around the SmithMirco site and didn't see it - only a couple references to it on this message board but with no link.

*"Okay so I guess part of the problem with the contest is that some of you are camera shy..."

No, not all! This other guy down the street just pays me more.*

Edited for a forgotten !

I wish I had known about the contest.  With 34 winners out of 34 entries, my chances would have been pretty good. 

 Hey PZrite

I am just back at Poser (2010) after a hiatus, I had nearly "given up" around Poser 6. 2010 seems promising. The new Library structure alone (new to me) is enough of an improvement, I am just learning- relearning it-but it seems promising.

I too go back to the Willow and Ian days- and the batlles with whoever it was that took over. I remember MetaCreations (Painter, Poser, etc). I met Larry Weinberg (The Creator) and Steve Cooper a few times at conventions-(1998?) and had a running email dialog with Steve. Mostly over some morphs I had created in Ray Dream Designer that he liked.  I recall him getting AXED in one of the take overs- now he is back.

 They still work out of Watsonville-which is a nice place near Santa Cruz California- rather than Scotts Valley (also near Santa Cruz).I lived 1 mile from Curious labs!  Ted "Bagginsbill" works at the BIG CORPORATION and is a very regular poster- and there are others who are both posters and SmithMicro related. So it seems that people from the Big Corporation are still participating/communicating with us- and that gives me hope!
 
 I do get the general corporate separation from Art that you mention- certainly the MetaCreations days were probably the best from an Artists point of view-but I am hoping they have more stability as a result of the larger corporate backing. I HOPE!!!

I learned a long time ago to skip the occasional upgrade version: if nothing else, I can then see the drastic changes from, say, version 4 to version 7.

If anything, Content Paradise needs a jolt of a design overhaul.

The thing that is lost from the old days is the "community" feeling.
Its rare that a dialog is maintained from SM reps with us here at rendo. It was retty much an ongoing thing in the past, especially with Metacreations. Even Kai Krause was around back then.
The last really big dialog session was when Anthony Hernandez used to be here. He was about the last one.

Steve Cooper has now been here a bit since SM, however.

The SM website is not built for an artist, that is for sure. And poser is indeed buried with a lot of other mundane and useless offerings, scrape ups from other developers that were barely, if at all, getting by in sales. SM is like a liquidation site of random offerings.

I just went from P6 to P8. A lot of you desire UI changes, etc, but the worst thing, imo, that has happened to P8, is the new library. Its slow, I need to refresh it constantly, it displays multiples of the same object. Its supposed to drag and drop..it does not.
The UI is perfect for me. I love the Kai interface. nothing worse than menu based graphics apps.

forgot about the video...it went south for me when it appeared the vid had to be uploaded to youtube... and then voted upon. Youtube and popular voting just doesn't get it for me. Kind of like the galleries where everyone votes for the same or most popular person, even though the art is shit.

I never knew the P8 library was supposed to drag and drop. The drag and drop in PP2010 certainly works.

Corel had the chance to buy Poser when Metacreations sold off their 3D apps but they declined. Since then, it has been owned by two graphics oriented companies, egiSys and eFrontier. Neither of them kept it. I agree that the whole soft-warehouse feel of SM isn't what one would necessarily prefer, but if they hang onto it and continue development, that in itself will be a welcome change.

I keep expecting that the entire 3D people ala Poser thing will explode any day now but I suspect that if it does, it will be more in gaming, avatars, MMORPGs etc. The Daz Gizmodo alliance may be telling in that regard. No one other than Daz and the open source MakeHuman seems to be inclined toward the low to mid-range character rendering and animation area. That's good in the sense of less competition but to survive, Poser needs a stable company with a commitment to it's future. If that means it has to share space with fishy screensavers and ageing compression packages, then such is life. At some point though, if they want to appeal to a larger (and especially a more professional) market, Poser needs its own identity separate and apart from the Ginsu knives and the Pocket Fisherman.
 

Quote - I never knew the P8 library was supposed to drag and drop. The drag and drop in PP2010 certainly works.

To set the record straight, the new P8 library isn't drag and drop at all, neither is the PP2010 library. The new drag and drop feature in PP2010 works separate from the library, it's a Poser feature, Poser Pro 2010 is drag and drop, not the library. If you like me, don't even have the new library installed, the drag and drop still works. In theory you don't even need a library any more with this new feature, it's completely library independent.

I've been dragging and dropping files from places that aren't even referred to in my LibraryPrefs.xml file, that's the one that controls locations of the regular poser libraries.

From what I've seen, Smith-Micro hasn't been a bad parent.  They've allowed development to continue and there are definately positive things in Poser Pro 2010, namely a 64-bit native application that I didn't expect to see.  I did expect the 64-bit "renderer" but it does feel like from Poser 8 and forward, they are trying to gut more and more of that legacy code for a more flexible future platform.

Maybe the improvements have come slowly from version to version but honestly, the price point has also stayed low in my opinion.  There has always been some debate over the upgrade pricing with each version released but Poser PRO 2010 seems fair, obviously depending on what you have purchased prior.

I do think that Poser made a mistake by closing its forums at Content Paradise and I think that truly adds to the generic or corporate feel.  However, when the forums were open there seemed to be a greal deal of bashing and thrashing around by posters and perhaps it wasn't monitored as well as it could have been - in other words just seemed like a lot of ugly going on.  I could see in that case why they'd decide to close the forums down.

The facebook system seems like an attempt to re-connect with the customers on a personal level.  However, I think that facebook is an extremely generic platform in many ways - there's very little in the way of customization (graphics, colors, etc) and it feels like one huge diversion rather than a way to effectively communicate (Farmville, Mafia Wars and so on).

I would have liked to have seen another attempt at a community forum, even if to collect information, tips and tricks, see announcements without the impulsive "what's on your mind" jumble of facebook.  It is nice to see developers post here on occasion but there should be a native venue for that as well.

drag and drop ...afar from the thread ..
however ...i can drag and drop stuff from the library to the doc window...figures, hair, etc ...
P8 ...
isn't that drag and drop? I click on the thing and drag it to the doc window ...

now back to the regular thread.

Well that's drag & drop, but not what is referred to as the new feature. Here's what you can do now...... while poser 2010 is running, open windows explorer or whatever file manager you use. Browse with windows explorer to one of your runtime folders. Now pick a prop or figure and drag it to the doc window. Drag and drop without the need of any library installed.

For now, it has it's limit's, it works only for figures and props, but who knows what will happen in future versions, they may add poses, materials and so on also.

The new drag and drop also can auto-conform and scale.

Guys - some little confusion about drag and drop.

D&D was implemented as a new feature in P8, from the P8 Library GUI. Everything can be D&D - materials too. That's why materials are always visible. You drag a material onto a prop or figure where you want it applied. Same with poses, same with lights, same with cameras - all content is D&D enabled, not just figures.

The 2010 version extended that to using the OS D&D, which allows you to use D&D from other apps besides the Poser Library GUI.

Oh - and I don't work for SM and am not a spokeman for them, although people keep insisting I am. I'm a consultant. SM is only occasionally my client. Mostly it is NCR.

thanks for the unconfusion BB :)

Quote - .
If it were still a home-grown software with a small DEDICATED staff of designers and code writers, I think we would be seeing more of those enhancements and fixes.  Along with fresh new ideas.

I get the feeling that they just want to push the next version out the door to make some more money.  And as was already mentioned, not even fixing the older versions first, just moving on to the next version with a minimal amount of hoopla advertising.
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3 not-quick things:

What factors lead you to that feeling?  I truly want to combat this whenever possible.  There have been multiple service release showing our dedication to fix the products and bugs, we took serious user input and invited a public beta on this version and have tried to increase our communication with users.  We are trying pretty hard here to make you feel like we aren't corporate!  Do you have any suggestions on ways we could communicate that better? 

We are a very small, VERY dedicated staff that make up the Smith Micro Productivity and Graphics group here in Watsonville.  I've been here 9 years, and there are at least 10 people here who have been working with Poser longer than me and done more than the 3 company jump, some have done the 5 company jump.  (Smith, Efro, CL, Meta & Fractal.)  We have even more excitement and energy behind the product than ever before - It's really quite awesome to work here now.  (Oy, there were days in the past company years, it wasn't near as fun..)  I'm pretty excited to start doing a few more behind the scenes pieces so you all can really see who is working on the software and making the decisions, and where the ideas are coming from.  I will say what I always say - the motives behind the development and sale of this product by the team here are pretty darn awesome.  (And while our owner is bigger than in the past - they are certainly behind this product line, and it is not just another horse in the stable.)

Regarding the contest - I'm pretty sure that I had uploaded at least 30 videos the day before the close of the contest.  We're just trying to do more events, you should see a lot of these kinds of things for our products this year.  Not everyone will want to play every game, take every discount or visit every website.  I'll definitely work on some camera-shy events.  For this particular contest - I thought it was better to not cut 9 people out of the prize, that seemed silly.  If we had gotten 100 entries, chances are we would have probably had to enforce things like the video time limit, etc.  But, I was really excited by the quality of the entries and want people to have good happy feelings about participating in things, not negative feelings.  We haven't done many contests, this was a test of the waters again.  If you missed this event, watch out, you never know what we're going to do next!  I don't think there is any direct relationship between the events, prizes and contests to the future or development of the product, nor any indication of a corporate influence in them!  If that's what you're hearing from this though, I need to rethink how we approach things.

Regarding the website - We tried to add the new "microsites" in order to be a little more graphic and image based as well as share more of the product information.  Check out poser.smithmicro.com, anime.smithmicro,com and manga.smithmicro.com in order to see a little less corporate feel of the company and graphics products!

Thanks for being part of this community - I am not here as much as I like, but I do try and listen and carry forth the messages here, and know many more lurk...so keep talking, and we'll do what we can!

Tori Porter
Online Marketing
Smith Micro

 Hey Tori

Hang in there! I've got no problems with how things are going. I always assumed you folks were doing what you could with whatever resources you have. With vast resources you could probably
have magical software that reads our minds! I hope I did not just leak secret information!

I forgot about Fractal Designs -can I get an upgrade for Detailer (3D paint?) :-)

   You work in a lovely part of the state. I was in Santa Cruz and Scotts Valley until 2000. Now in the East Bay- I miss the Santa Cruz area.

     Keep on Truckin!

Quote - What factors lead you to that feeling?  I truly want to combat this whenever possible.  There have been multiple service release showing our dedication to fix the products and bugs, we took serious user input and invited a public beta on this version and have tried to increase our communication with users.  We are trying pretty hard here to make you feel like we aren't corporate!  Do you have any suggestions on ways we could communicate that better?

For what it's worth, you could have left your own forums open, not that it would matter much, since the staff hardly ever participated in them at all, except for making announcements. The only way to communicate better is to actually communicate. Mostly we see announcements made, not answering or helping or even sharing thoughts. The times people from SM come in here to post is mainly to set the record straight or to announce something.

Even great tools like blogs, twitter & facebook are only abused by SM staff to make announcements. I choose abused is on purpose, since that's not what those tools are for, they're to communicate, tell people what's happening, not to make the next CP sale announcement or telling us PP2010 is out.

All the SM staff needs to do is truly start communicating, not just pop in to set the record straight, SM staff seems to have that habit. Then people reply to the posts made by SM staff here, but no one from SM even takes the time to reply, unless another record needs to be set straight.

If you want increase communication with users you have to start communicating with us, not talking at us. But that has been the problem for years, there isn't any interaction.

Perhaps you could consult BB about these matters also, at least he's doing a pretty good job communicating, but he's not staff. I've got the feeling that as soon as he would be (doubt it will ever happen), communication with him would stop as well.

I have to agree 100% on the communication.
Get someone in here from the development team. Talk to us. Ask us questions. Do some chit chat..render something

Hehe, aeilkema, - they could never make me stop talking. LOL

Well, while no one else is BB, this whole thing is a crock. I have seen MANY posts by Starlet, Cooper, and ratscloset (probably forgetting some) that offered genuine help. Could it be better? Sure. When couldn't it, in any situation?

But the bottom line is a lot of this piling on is completely uncalled for.

Nobody's "Piling On" here B3D, this thread is barely 2 pages long. That's hardly what I'd call piling it on. Aeilkema has made a very valid statement that in order for communications to improve, SM needs to communicate more. I happen to agree with that assesment. There's a huge difference in being talked to and being talked at as well. Being a little more "Proactive" in talking "To" the community, would go a long way towards alleviating these "Has Poser gone too corporate" threads and feelings some have been having.

As for this all being a crock? Those many posts you're refering to are exactly the posts that Aeilkema was referring to when he said that the only times staffers tend to be seen is when they're either announcing something or correcting someone's missunderstandings.

No offense, but things used to be better in that area. There's always room for improvement.

It's piling it on when it's claimed that the SM folks never offer anything helpful. I've seen them do so MANY times.

/unsubscribe

Quote - It's piling it on when it's claimed that the SM folks never offer anything helpful. I've seen them do so MANY times.

I'm sorry but I just searched both pages of this thread and NOBODY said SM folks "Never" offer anything helpful. I think you're over reacting here just a bit. But that's just typical around here. And "Piling On" to me means there's a gang of people doing it and not just one person.

"Is Poser suffering from big corporate take over?"

I'd better get my opinion in before this thread goes South. :-)

It's a Catch-22 situation, really. You may think that a large corporation is unsuited (pun definitely not intended) to handling an application intended for creative minds to use; but we need the large corporation because they have money and resources. Assuming you want Poser to continue developing, and to have cool features added to it as time goes on, then money and resources are the key to that. Like it or not, Poser has advanced far beyond the point where one man in his shed can maintain it.

I'd quite like things like gamma correction and other rendering improvements, but not enough to actually shell out for an upgrade. Poser 6 has hit a sweet spot for me, as Poser 4 did before it.

Hoorah for SM, they didn't drop Poser like so many people were saying was their intention back when, and they actually put some money into it. Now I didn't get everything I wanted, but got some of it. :)  I am pretty surprised to see people from SM/Poser dev team in the forums. With the exception of 3DCoat, I dont think I have ever seen anyone from a software companies dev team in the forums. I'm happy to see they're here but they likely have work to do.  :)

Anyway, thanks SM and all the people who worked so hard on this version of Poser, The best yet IMO.

We also hoped that stuff like the staff video would help show a little more that we are trying to communicate and put ourselves out there.  There is also a lot more to communication than the forums, and we are a very small team who can't be everywhere talking to everyone at once.  If you have something to say to Smith Micro - PLEASE - contact us.   There are multiple methods to email your suggestions, feature requests, etc.  I was pretty surprised that when we offered an open feedback form at the beginning of this year, fewer people than I expected shared their opinions or feature requests.  The feedback we got was plentiful enough for me to submit some opinions to the teams and was actually pretty amazing, but I truly expected a lot more in terms of volume. 

I think the blog is awesome.  (And funny, and no, I don't write it!)  blog.smithmicro.com is not about announcements.  It's about the art, the artists and the products.    I'm not really here to defend our use of social networks, but I can say very clearly that had I not been on deviantART the past few months, our Poser Pro 2010 box wouldn't have such a kickass image and we wouldn't have been able to discover Paul Sutton.  We're finding new artists and stories every day on Twitter, YouTube and Facebook.  People are out there sharing their art, and we're out there trying to talk to them about it.  I can say since the launch of Manga Studio 4, Anime Studio 6 and Poser 8, there has been a decided turn in the tone towards communication with our users, and there is A LOT of back and forth happening.  It is frankly why I love coming to work every day.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone is piling it on.  If anything, I was thinking yesterday, I have known a lot of the more frequent posters on here for many, many, years and I know how your opinions of the products and companies have changed, and I have a ton of respect for your feedback on the product, good or bad.  I know that some people have very sensitive feelings about past actions of the company or their relationship with the product, but I also know the hard work put in here is appreciated a lot too.  I collect it all, and do what I can. 

Dave - I'll see what I can do about getting some sort of event set up where you can talk to some developers or ask questions.  We've done things here at Rendo in the past where you could submit questions to product managers, it's been a while.