RobynViel / LaurA: your comments are kind and I thank you for them but I have seen too many complaints in the forum about items in the MP and I don't want that hassle. I'll stick to depositing stuff in the freebie section.

That's a bit of an ethical problem though: This site has to be financed - peoples' wages have to be paid. It's a quandy

Quote - RobynViel / LaurA: your comments are kind and I thank you for them but I have seen too many complaints in the forum about items in the MP and I don't want that hassle. I'll stick to depositing stuff in the freebie section.

That's a bit of an ethical problem though: This site has to be financed - peoples' wages have to be paid. It's a quandy

Well, customer complaints kinda go with the territory of selling...lol...even for the best and most popular merchants I'm sure. If it's one thing you can be certain of it's that you can never satisfy everyone. And some you never can...lol.

Laurie

What Laurie said. If you state clearly what your products do, what they are for, and "that if you break it, you get to keep both pieces" you should be covered. I.e, a disclaimer.
Testing helps... run it by your friends and see if they can find any issues. Then, run it by me... :biggrin: I'm pedantic. Rendo staff will also test it. Pass all those tests, and you're laffin'... all the way to the bank, whilst Rendo is chuckling on the way to another bank with the other half.

@ lmckenzie - i'd entirely agree with you (instead of mostly)  if i saw in the movies produced after the birth of the video camera the same lack of individuality i do on this site  i didn't, and still don't.  i mean, i know that even porn got lower quality with the advent of the video camera and that the industry exploded.  but so did indie documentaries, animation, and other genres.  the underground of film was very diverse, and in my opinion, more diverse than here. i don't think it's just the democratization of tools.  it's also the particular culture of Poserdom.   i think it's due to a number of different factors, but i'm not sure what they are.

more people make stuff, but fewer seem to make original stuff.  most of the artists and merchants i've followed who have made original stuff (in my opinion, of course) have left the community.  some are still here, and i search pretty hard for new ones. i'm noticing that it's much harder than it used to be.  even a year ago i found more of certain styles of work in the gallery.

i'm not thinking about the exclusivity.  quite the opposite.  i've watched a lot of people whose work i respect (including newcomers who were just picking up Poser) turn away from this community and its culture over the years.  i sometimes think we don't realize how many are in fact pushed away by the culture, and turn away from what they see as a community that has no place for their type of work.  i mean, yeah, the site as a whole grows.  but as far as i've seen, the cultures of all the Poser sites are consolidating and becoming more uniform.  which isn't bad if you don't miss the diversity.  i do.

@moriador - i pretty much agree with you, too, except that photographers can do just Playboy  and Maxim shots with different women pretty easily.  and in fact, most of the photographers i follow here have left, too. again, i actively search for new ones, but i'm finding fewer and fewer.  i'm actually seeing some (not much, but some) of the uniformity of the dominant Poser/D|S culture creep into some of the other areas here.  while on other non-Poser gallery sites i look at, that doesn't seem to be happening.

i have a lot of sites for photo galleries and photographers bookmarked, and i haven't seen one like you describe.  but i'm most definitely not a photographer, so i don't know the culture or the online hang-outs like you probably do (from how you speak of them).

@Trekkie-Grrl - thanks so much for your creations.  i've followed your work for a while, and it's always been interesting.   i'm definitely not saying i think merchants shouldn't mix it up.  i'm not even trying to tell merchants what to sell like the "we want male clothes," "we want ordinary contemporary clothes," and "we want stuff for kids," threads.  i don't even think it's just merchants contributing to the state of the market, or it probably would change.  i think it's all of us.  and i'm very glad that you continue to be able to do your own thing.

@Apple_UK - as i mentioned to RobynsVeil last night/this morning, after looking at your work, i have no clue why you reacted to any of the statements here, including mine, as if your work had been criticized. that's not insight into your psyche, that's reporting on your behavior.  your work is high quality modeling (an area i never complained about despite you posting as if i had), and very original.  you are actually the type of artist i find it harder and harder to find.  i really  hope you put aside your emotional reaction to critiques and start selling.  i would hope that you could make a good amount of money, and i know that you would add to the diversity of the marketplace which i personally appreciate.

if you think it's unreasonable to have an opinion on creativity, well, that's very unusual. people comment on the creativity of all the fields i mentioned all the time.  just as an example, most conversations about any movie or movies in general that i've witnessed or have been a part of, both online and in real life, at some point touched on whether the movie was original and interesting or not.  and a fairly large percentage of those conversations touched on the originality of the film industry in general.  i see no reason why this community should be exempt from the same kind of analysis.

that said, i never said anyone was obligated to be creative.  i said i wish the community as a whole took more creative risks.  maybe you feel people are obligated to give you what you wish, but i do not.

as for your comments on my creativity, well, i acknowledge you  moving to personal attacks but i'm not going to respond in kind. 

Quote - RobynViel / LaurA: your comments are kind and I thank you for them but I have seen too many complaints in the forum about items in the MP and I don't want that hassle. I'll stick to depositing stuff in the freebie section.

That's a bit of an ethical problem though: This site has to be financed - peoples' wages have to be paid. It's a quandy

Complaints in the forum... can you be more specific? Are they quality of mesh complaints, or shader complaints or what, exactly?
I haven't seen too many mesh complaints, but have seen shader complaints, and they are warranted. Usually those shader-complaints are followed by comments from people who do have information on optimising shaders. Since this is all a learning experience - I'm certain you didn't start out modelling as beautifully as you do now - it is worthwhile to have a read of those suggestions and try them out. Vendors as a rule don't, judging by the quality of the shaders still being produced.

The biggest challenge I have had as vendor is keeping up with my energetic partner, who is light-years faster than I am at producing things. Much as I hate to say it, what sells best (at our skill level) is "sexy" - I know it and she knows it. I wish I could model like you do, but since we always have something in the oven I feel guilty taking time to learn stuff when I should be producing.
When (notice I didn't say if) you do start selling, do it at a pace where it stays enjoyable for you, where you can still explore new concepts and technologies. Growth is a crucial factor to keep from falling into the productivity rut that most vendors on here have fallen into (which is what I believe KobaltKween is refering to... not your work, or anyone else's that IS creative).

You don't owe anyone anything. If you want to keep giving away freebies, feel free. Rendo's making heaps off us vendors so they're happy. You can always just do this as a hobby. That's what I do. I think the trend is bound to change in terms of how things sell, but in which direction is anyone's guess.

wow!  very nice work. it looks like you're planning to expand it?

Thanks. Yup, it's going to be a interlocking section that can go on as far as you want it to. I'm going to have it broken up into bits and pieces so 1 whole section with both sides, 1 section half of a side, 2 section halfs and 2 section wholes.

Quote - I've only been in for about 3 years, so I can't speak about then, but one thing that really irks me is that product documentation  (with a few exceptions) really stinks.  For one thing, many come with a file called "readme.txt"-you can only have one per directory, so if a bunch of stuff is getting installed, invariably I end up overwriteing readme.txt-perhaps even more than once.  I find readme files in any number of different directories, sometimes in runtime/readme's (or various misspellings thereof) under runtime/libraries, etc.

Arggh. My own pet peeve too. A community standard that included unique file naming and standard folder/file locations would not be that hard to follow.
Other aspects of the file structure of zips, on the other hand, has improved. Really old content is often not organized even in to runtime structure. Everything shoved into a single file with a readme detailing file placement. So, we do get better at some things! :)

Have the models improved, in general?

As others have said, some is better, some is worse, and there's a whole lot more in the middle than there used to be. So the impression is of a reduced quality. I was thinking about a year ago, about a particular merchant/marketplace whose offerings didn't seem, in general, to be as detailed or well-crafted as they did 4 or 5 years ago. So maybe I agree.

On the other hand, poser models are offered at ridiculous prices and most merchants can't (can they?) really be earning much more than sweatshop wages, given the sheer amount of work that goes into making even a "mediocre" model. Surely, it must be a labour of love that drives most creators, rather than a reasonable expectations of riches. It's hardly surprising that the most creative people get burned out periodically or that other markets attract their talent.

Kobaltkween, no more bikering but could you be more precise on a definition of creativity? Is it visual style, the message within a picture, new techiques?

For me a picture has to have a meaning, and I can't be doing with all this fantasy sleeze. I have looked at your gallery and it looks to me that you there is a message there, though I haven't yet deciphered it. That is not a cricism of your work, it is a compliment. Messages in pictures should never be 'in your face'  for me.

So come on, let's get to the bottom of what you mean by creativity and the lack of it.

As someone who has been on every side of where this discussion has gone, I can tell you it's hard.  I started out giving stuff away to the Rhino users - partially because I was a mod and didn't feel right selling it (foolish that) and partially because I like to share what I've made. Later, I needed "fun money" because my job at the time wasn't paying enough for me to really do more than make ends meet. So I made my first Poser figure. A toon.  Let me tell you right now, that was when I realized something : the Poser community is a paradox for the content creator. Simply put, you create something you think will be popular because it's what you love. You put blood sweat and tears into it. The act is akin to giving birth. Once done, you marvel at it for a moment and then you share it with everyone. That's when you realize what you thought was cool is NOT what everyone thinks is cool. Despite any evidence to the contrary (ie. forum posts, requests for models, or motion picture viewing habits).

Example: Pixar is by far the most successfull 3D cartoon animation house in America right now. Even their failures are making money. People eat their stuff up. Many of those people are Poser users. You would assume then, that these people must have some love for toons, yes? NO.  Far from it in fact.

Okay, so you made a mistake. Now what? Should you attempt to stick to your guns and make what you love or should you seek out what's popular and try to mimic it - remember now, you need the cash and you're spending nights and weekends working on this thing. A little recognition that it even exists would go a long way to making the experience worthwhile, right? Right.  Well, I'll tell you what I did. I stuck to my guns and made something I liked - a dragon. That did ok but again, did not have the impact I expected and was used by exactly two people (I can point you to the gallery pics).  So now you've failed (again) and you're wondering if you should continue or just give up. I decided to pull back and work on my craft, assuming my lack of skill to be the cause of my misfortune. Others in that situation continued on but instead of making what they loved, they looked around and made what sells.

So really, it boils down to this - People won't make for sale things that people aren't going to buy but people can't buy it if people don't make it. It's a vicious cycle and tends to explain why so many people who got into this with the best of intentions end up making cookie cutter copies of what's "popular" (which is only popular because there's little else available).

On the original topic:

Yes, models are getting better but as they get better, the Poser user expects more. What's worse - they expect more at the same price they paid for the stuff that wasn't so good.  I just got through making a character with 568 morphs - originally, I had offered to do the textures and rig also but by the end, after listening to the masses, I realized I didn't have it in me.  We content creators end up doing the work of a small production studio by ourselves and see little in the way of acknowledgement, grattitude or money.  Not to mention the knowledge that outside of our little community, our work wouldn't be taken seriously due to the stigmata of the program it's made for.  Meanwhile, we're selling for $15 to $40 a fully rigged and morphed character set that would, in other circles, cost a few hundred dollars. So there's not a lot of incentive to improve the quality of figures but I do believe people are doing it. I know I constantly try to find a better way to invent the wheel we call "Poser characters" and I think I may have finally stumbled onto something. We'll see in a few months.

The only way I stay sane though, is I do what's asked of me at work and on my own time, I sculpt or model what I would rather be making (often fantasizing of releasing them someday). 

Teyon - i totally get it. i think you've described the dilemma merchants experience and observe pretty well.  but you've also just described the situation for most of my friends and acquaintances and even most of the people i used to work with.  only they make music.  but while some stop playing in bands, or such, most just keep making the music they like and finding (or trying to find) ways to make money at it.

i know a young woman in NYC working 3 jobs so she can dance.  has she become an exotic dancer so she can pay her rent?  nope.  and she's highly unlikely to, even though she could make tons of money at it in a short period of time.

the family friends who are painters, sculptors, writers, etc. had the same problems.  none of them decided the solution was to give up on their vision. 

i totally understand that this is the choice many merchants face, and why they choose what they do.  and i don't think anyone is obligated or should make the decisions other artists i know have.  but if it were just the choice that were an issue, then our community wouldn't be different from those of other indie artist communities, and it is.

i don't know what the difference is, or what part of the merchant experience neither merchants nor customers can see that affects Poser communities in particular. but it actually seems to be pretty independent of actual money made.  most merchants here make way more than just about every musician i know (most making more than 0), and no one here has to lug around a drum set.  ;D

on quality- realize that you just described the top of the line models.  you've gotten better,  Stonemason's gotten better, Morris has gotten better, Aery Soul has gotten better, etc.  but the mid and bottom of the market is still pretty much where it was.  people are more demanding, because the people who stay and keep improving keep setting the bar higher. but there's still a lot of newcomers making basic stuff that has errors you'd never make. 

i guess what i'm trying to say is don't make yourself crazy trying to be perfect because it's what people ask for.  tons of people sell quickie little items of mid to low quality and still sell copies.  but, you know, it's like the difference between usability testing with focus groups and questionnaires and actual A/B testing.  ask people what they don't like and they'll go on and on.  ask people what they want, and they'll list the sun, moon and stars.  actually test what they do, and it will probably be entirely different from what they predicted (vehemently, no less). 

i always think corvas' !TheGlamorousCollection!V4 is a good example of how you can't go by what people say.  the dresses aren't latex or pvc tight or especially revealing.  they don't have any thickness.  they don't come with textures.  they're not even UV mapped. they're not conforming, they're dynamic. and they spent ages on the best seller list. 

what do you think would have been the response if he had asked in the forums, "will a set of 5 dynamic dresses and 30 materials with no textures, no UV mapping and paper thin edges sell well?"  how many features do you think people would have demanded?

"The only way I stay sane though, is I do what's asked of me at work and on my own time, I sculpt or model what I would rather be making (often fantasizing of releasing them someday)."

Mucking around with Poser shaders keeps me sane (I work as a nurse in recovery). I can't say I'm good at it... not yet. Who is good at what she does - marketing and knowing what people want - is my business partner HeRaZa. She's very successful (by my standards, anyway). Me, I'm a bit of a wannabe.

Anyway, I feel lucky to know her.

Will I ever make a business of this? To answer that, I still have the luxury of being able to ask: which way is the market going? I glance at the "What's Hot" every now and then to see what people ostensibly want and then I think: "would I even be remotely interested in making something like that?" For me: that's the kicker. Can I get inspired to work on something like what I see for hours on end? days on end? No? Well, I don't have to.

At present (and for some months now) I've been obsessed with Matmatic and GC and CoE and tweaking every shader I've come across but I can't help wonder: am I developing a marketable skill? Is this going to be useful someday? Already, GC is in some versions of Poser, and I would guess as more people realise how important it is, this Pro feature may (I did say may, Bill) become part of the non-Pro version of Poser of the future as they dream up more exotic features. But then again, maybe not.

My Point? For those who do this for a living, more power to you! It is as grueling a job to sit and model and texture (and for me: code) for days and days on end, only to find your supposed Next-Best-Thing go down the gurgler. This is hard work if you do it for a business. I do it as a hobby, and even so, I sometimes feel the pressure of deadlines and testing.

Going out on a limb: I'd like to see the Poser BUYERS change the tenor of Poser content... just how many more skimpy outfits do you need? Come-on people: enough V4s in a dungeon with a sword, already. Let's come up with some original ideas for Poser images... and let content-makers rise to meet THAT challenge.

Simple and straignt answer to the question:

Yes.

Longer answer:

Yes but there are a lot more vendors so the average has dropped somewhat and there are some real clunkers out there.

The standard of textures has, IMO, fallen, because the majority are now using merchant resource kits.  And no, I don't care if this gets me flamed from me fellow vendors.  IMO, the only resources you should use are photos and your imagination.

Quote - The standard of textures has, IMO, fallen, because the majority are now using merchant resource kits.  And no, I don't care if this gets me flamed from me fellow vendors.  IMO, the only resources you should use are photos and your imagination.

What!? You don't like  the monotonously replicated V4 textures with the three moles in exactly same place on the torso and only minor tonal differences?:lol:

Heck most days paging through the galleries is like a surrealistic extension of  the  "Simply Irresistible" vid.

Quote - > Quote - The standard of textures has, IMO, fallen, because the majority are now using merchant resource kits.  And no, I don't care if this gets me flamed from me fellow vendors.  IMO, the only resources you should use are photos and your imagination.

What!? You don't like  the monotonously replicated V4 textures with the three moles in exactly same place on the torso and only minor tonal differences?:lol:

Heck most days paging through the galleries is like a surrealistic extension of  the  "Simply Irresistible" vid.

Laurie

In short I agree that the quality of products has dropped in recent years.  Products have also gotten a lot more repetitive.  You basically see the same outfit released by different artists again and again.  This seems to always have been true in the Poser community, but a lot more so now.

I also agree that sci-fi products specifically have taken a nose dive.  There were some really talented people, who at one point produced a lot of high quality stuff, that have slowed down or stopped how much they release.

There are still a few people that consistently produce good stuff, and I hope they continue to do so.  I also hope people are voting down the schlock with their wallets and at the same time supporting the people who make good stuff by buying it.

There is another thing to keep in mind. That is, making realistic, casual, everyday clothes, characters, etc. is harder then sci-fi, fantasy, pin-up stuff. The level of accuracy needs to be much higher and artistic freedom is much more limited.