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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 13 11:02 am)



Subject: VSS Skin Test - Opinions


gamedever ( ) posted Sun, 02 May 2010 at 9:52 PM · edited Sun, 02 May 2010 at 9:55 PM

 Yeah, setting SSS to 0.3 should fix it.


hborre ( ) posted Sun, 02 May 2010 at 9:55 PM · edited Sun, 02 May 2010 at 9:57 PM
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I don't remember who posted some settings using VSS, but the recommended value should be approximately 0.3 in P8 and PP 2010.  Even BB strongly suggests modifying that setting depending on the skin texture.

Edit: Now I remember, it was you, gamedever!


Eric Walters ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 12:07 AM

Thanks for the tips! And the compliment! I do like the red ear glow-that at least happens in real life



Eric Walters ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 1:16 AM · edited Mon, 03 May 2010 at 1:17 AM

file_452206.jpg

 Well...I changed gamma on all the textures except the neck- not so good!



IsaoShi ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 3:46 AM · edited Mon, 03 May 2010 at 3:50 AM

The diffuse value of the teeth (and possibly eyewhites, if I recall correctly) does need adjusting from the default value in the shader.

You wrote that you changed the gamma value on every texture except the neck.

Firstly, this suggests that you went into each of the figure's materials and did that. No no! All you do is go into the VSS prop materials, change it there (in six shaders), and Synchronise.
(Edited to add: after changing the Prop shaders, its a good idea to save this new non-GC version to your Props library).

Secondly, what gamma value did you set?

Thirdly, I would advise using bagginsbill's Lightmeter (new version) to check the 'real' diffuse and specular light levels in your scene.

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)


gamedever ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 3:49 AM

 The lightmeter is invaluable. I don't render without it when building new lightsets. I agree that it is a must need.


hborre ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 6:10 AM
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Agree on both posts above concerning the light meter.  Now you will need to remove the reflection from the teeth.  Somehow, this last image looks correct given the immediate conditions available.  There is quite a bit of blue present. 

You mentioned BB's beach light set for the scene.  Is this the original light set created for VSS?  If so, that light set was incorrectly created.  It is initially way too bright.  My suggestion, delete the light set and recreate it using 1 infinite light and IDL.


Eric Walters ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 10:28 AM

file_452213.jpg

Hi I will look for the light meter-and replace the light from BB's Studio Scene

This is the result of changing the prop Template's to Gamma 1 btw- and SSS 0.3-when already set at 0.15 on the textures- too low obviously!



hborre ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 10:47 AM
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Your model has an overall bluish tint.  Something tells me that you may be using IBL lighting in your scene which may have a strong blue casting image map.


bagginsbill ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 3:07 PM · edited Mon, 03 May 2010 at 3:08 PM

Quote -  What BB told me:

If we blend as in that tutorial, we do:

A: Blend(S, T * S, f) = (1-f) * S + f * T * S

If we use Texture_Strength equal to f, we have:

B: S * Blend(1, T, f)

I will now prove that these two setups are the same:

B
{ substitute definition of B }
= S * Blend(1, T, f)
{ substitute the definition of Blend }
= S * ((1-f) * 1 + f * T)
{ (1-f) * 1 = 1 - f }
= S * ((1 - f) + f * T)
{ distribution of multiplication over addition }
= (1 - f) * S + f * T * S
{ definition of A }
= A

Voila. B = A.

That is the proof that a Blended multiplication of skin (S) and tattoo (T) is the same as a multiplication of S with T using the texture strength as an adjustment of the intensity of the effect. But the Blended value is still starting with the premise of S * T: Blend(S, S * T, f)

Isaoshi was talking about a technique that doesn't start with multiplication of S and T: Blend(S, T, f)

That's totally different. In that sort of blend, there is no product of S and T at all.

I'm not arguing which is better (more useful) nor which is more correct (physically). Just saying they're different.

When you have the term S * T, then there is no way to make, for example, a white tattoo. More specifically, there is no way to produce a color that has any component higher than the original skin color, unless you have hyper-colors in the tatoo.  Whereas, Blend(S, T, f) can produce white quite easily. Blend is a variation on addition, not multiplication. It's a weighted sum, in fact. However, a weighted sum of S versus S * T is a different thing than just a weighted sum of S versus T.

Now we could discuss instead whether tattoo ink math is addition or multiplication or some combination, but I don't think I actually know the math. I've never seen it discussed.

Somebody want to volunteer to let me inject you with white paint and see what happens?


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ghost13 ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 7:34 PM

lol @ bagginsbill injection test   :)


Vestmann ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 7:46 PM

 I did some research on tattoo inks and white is often used to highlight designs and there also seems to be controversial trend for doing all white tattoos so the multiplying method is at least not the do all, die all method for tattoos.




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estherau ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 7:46 PM · edited Mon, 03 May 2010 at 7:50 PM

 I just tried injecting paint into myself, and it looks...it looks.....agghhhhhhh...........

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hborre ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 7:50 PM
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Esther, are you okay?


Vestmann ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 7:54 PM

 ssshhh....    We should give her time do dry :)




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estherau ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 7:56 PM

 gurgle gurgle my friends say my skin has gone a kind of a green colour gurgle...gasp...hope..gasp... this...helps

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Vestmann ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 8:01 PM

 Esther..?!     Please try to hold on!  You mustn't leave us!   Green does not fit well within the theory...     Can you hold a little longer to give us a more accurate result please?!




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estherau ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 8:06 PM

 My arm has dropped off now after turning blue.  sorry.  does blue fit?

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Vestmann ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 8:09 PM

 I have no idea!  I was just teasing ;)




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hborre ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 8:14 PM
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Whew!  I thought we lost her.


estherau ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 8:22 PM

 will my arm grow back?

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Vestmann ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 8:25 PM

 Probably.   But be sure to tell us which color it is.




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RobynsVeil ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 9:22 PM

Do arms multiply or add? I guess we'd need to see what happens.

Or maybe they Blend. No, can't be that because a blend is a linear weighted sum. Summing non-linear values produces colour and luminance distortions.

I didn't say that. He did.

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bagginsbill ( ) posted Mon, 03 May 2010 at 9:29 PM

Yep I did.


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IsaoShi ( ) posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 1:32 AM

I've been missing the show... internet connection (and telephone) broken.

But it makes me very happy to see such entertainment and fun arising from my misunderstanding!
So I'm going to carry on making mistakes until my dyeing day.

Oops, slip of the finger, sorry Esther!

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)


estherau ( ) posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 1:38 AM

 just a bit of armless fun!

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Eric Walters ( ) posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 9:48 PM

Quote - > Quote -  What BB told me:

If we blend as in that tutorial, we do:

-snip-

Somebody want to volunteer to let me inject you with white paint and see what happens?

Yes! "There's an App for that! "I think I've seen too many iPhone adds- even if I rarely watch TV.

    The white Tattoo- I guess we would need 96 bit HDR displays?

 Some of this math reminds me of Quantum Mechanics from my University days- or is that DAZE?
I did well in it (even if I felt like I did not REALLY get it!) - and BARELY remember anything except phrases like "Eigenvalue" or that I USED to solve equations with Triple Integrals and Partial Derivatives- 
  BB you could teach a class in Poser Math- and get an audience!



Vestmann ( ) posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 9:53 PM

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -  What BB told me:

If we blend as in that tutorial, we do:

-snip-

Somebody want to volunteer to let me inject you with white paint and see what happens?

Yes! "There's an App for that! "I think I've seen too many iPhone adds- even if I rarely watch TV.

    The white Tattoo- I guess we would need 96 bit HDR displays?

 Some of this math reminds me of Quantum Mechanics from my University days- or is that DAZE?
I did well in it (even if I felt like I did not REALLY get it!) - and BARELY remember anything except phrases like "Eigenvalue" or that I USED to solve equations with Triple Integrals and Partial Derivatives- 
  BB you could teach a class in Poser Math- and get an audience!

He's currentlu working on a book on material wizardry and from what he's posted, it will be pretty comprehensive.  And you're right, there is huge audience for it out there.  Hopefully, Rendo vendors will pick up a copy :)




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ThunderStone ( ) posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 10:58 PM

So would I... 😉


===========================================================

OS: Windows 11 64-bit
Poser: Poser 11.3 ...... Units: inches or meters depends on mood
Bryce: Bryce Pro 7.1.074
Image Editing: Corel Paintshop Pro
Renderer: Superfly, Firefly

9/11/2001: Never forget...

Smiles are contagious... Pass it on!

Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday

 


ghost13 ( ) posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 6:24 AM

i would pick up a copy in a heartbeat


cspear ( ) posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 7:18 AM

Out of curiosity and a bit of "should I or shouldn't I ?" I bought D3D's Material Techniques tutorial recently. Nothing wrong with it, it has a few useful tips and ideas and is fairly clearly written. It's probably not for absolute beginners - I'd class it as 'intermediate' rather than 'advanced'.

No disrespect to Ralf, but I think bagginsbill has a deeper understanding of nodes and shaders: I'd pounce on anything he might publish.


Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017


hborre ( ) posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 7:31 AM
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I think you should read those tutorials with a grain of salt, be flexible and open-minded, and don't take what is wriiten as gospel.  Information gathered under one Poser version does not necessarily apply in another.  Content has been developed under less than ideal application conditions (bad coding or errors) and it shows when those conditions are corrected in another version.  BB does know his way around several version to qualify as an undisputed Guru.


ThunderStone ( ) posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 8:00 AM

@hborre... Hear, Hear...


===========================================================

OS: Windows 11 64-bit
Poser: Poser 11.3 ...... Units: inches or meters depends on mood
Bryce: Bryce Pro 7.1.074
Image Editing: Corel Paintshop Pro
Renderer: Superfly, Firefly

9/11/2001: Never forget...

Smiles are contagious... Pass it on!

Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday

 


estherau ( ) posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 8:01 AM

 or here even

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!


Eric Walters ( ) posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 9:35 AM

Me too! Look at VSS alone- big improvement in rendering- PEOPLE-which is much of the point of POSER :-)

  Esther! Oh my gosh! I missed your posts somehow. Very funny!

You must have gone for intravenous paint injections! That only works with Posette and the Dork- and only with 8 bit color. Lucky the paint was water soluble.

 ; I am glad you are improving- you might have needed a new set of UV maps! Any of you textures upside down or inverted?

I
 



estherau ( ) posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 6:45 PM

 I'm a painted lady.

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!


Eric Walters ( ) posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 10:44 PM

Quote -  I'm a painted lady.

hahaha!



IsaoShi ( ) posted Thu, 06 May 2010 at 4:46 AM

Quote -  I'm a painted lady.

I think we should just gloss over that....

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)


Vex ( ) posted Thu, 13 May 2010 at 8:48 AM

file_452837.jpg

 Regarding Shana's tattoo packs and VSS - I figured out why it doesn't work and SUPER easy fix for it.

Bagginsbill's shader uses DIFFUSE = 0, and plugs everything into ALT_DIFFUSE.

Shana's addons plug into DIFFUSE, and since its value is 0, it doesn't show up.

So to fix, just plug the ALT_DIFFUSE into "SWP_Shana_Math#" and Value1 goes into BB's "Color_Pow"

Its manual editing, but it works at least.



ThunderStone ( ) posted Thu, 13 May 2010 at 8:50 AM

Hmmm... interesting work around.


===========================================================

OS: Windows 11 64-bit
Poser: Poser 11.3 ...... Units: inches or meters depends on mood
Bryce: Bryce Pro 7.1.074
Image Editing: Corel Paintshop Pro
Renderer: Superfly, Firefly

9/11/2001: Never forget...

Smiles are contagious... Pass it on!

Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday

 


Vex ( ) posted Thu, 13 May 2010 at 9:02 AM

 yeah, if only it wasn't necessary. No idea how to rearrange the setup so that shana's shaders will work with bb's shaders without having to manually replug stuff



Vestmann ( ) posted Thu, 13 May 2010 at 9:30 AM

 When I use VSS I sometimes have a prop that has a Template Torso, Template Face and Template Limbs to use with a mapless Victoria.  I load these templates with Color, Specular and Bump maps and any extra maps.   It takes bit of a setup but once you're done you can save that prop away to your library.  This saves the time of going into each material group and applying nodes.




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Vestmann ( ) posted Thu, 13 May 2010 at 9:48 AM

file_452839.jpg

 This is how I set things up.  The Face, Limbs and Torso templates all have BB's skin shader of course.  I go into every template and load in the Color, bump and specular maps I want and synchronize them to a mapless V4.

 I´m starting to like this more then loading in a Mat file from someone else.  This way I can choose color, specular and bump maps from different packages if I want to and add any overlay maps to the different material Zones.  When I´m happy with the result I plug the 3 rules into Template Skin.  That way I can control the Shine and Bump settings from on place.  You just have to make sure that the setup in Template Skin is identical to the other templates.




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Vex ( ) posted Thu, 13 May 2010 at 9:58 AM

 Thats good and all for personal projects, but not practical for creating packages for sale ;/



Vestmann ( ) posted Thu, 13 May 2010 at 10:14 AM

 Oh I misunderstood.  I thought you were looking for a way to quickly apply Shana's overlay maps to Victoria hehe.  My bad ;)




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bopperthijs ( ) posted Thu, 13 May 2010 at 11:27 AM

*Because it is multiplying the non white colors, just like in real life. Bagginsbill is the oen that taught me the technique

*I hope you're not dutch, because that would be insulting.

Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?


TrekkieGrrrl ( ) posted Thu, 13 May 2010 at 9:10 PM

 I've tried to translate that into my rudimentary Dutch (which I'm a lot better at understanding than speaking) and.. I just can't figure out why it's insulting?

Except if it's a play on dark  people multiplying faster than white people - in which case it would be insulting in any language...

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  Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.



Vex ( ) posted Thu, 13 May 2010 at 9:15 PM

 i thought he meant maybe oen is a derogatory word 



bopperthijs ( ) posted Fri, 14 May 2010 at 3:15 AM

Oen is dutch slang for a castrated donkey, but also a nickname for someone who is very stupid.

I wouldn't dare to call BB that... even in english 😉 Sorry, I'm trolling

Regards,

Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?


Vex ( ) posted Fri, 14 May 2010 at 1:13 PM

 honestly im pretty surprised they have a single word for 'castrated donkey'



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