Ok proper serious type question :) though purely hypethetical of course.

Poser right we love it (quiet there in the back Daz users, it's a rhetorical statement), it comes with all sorts of shiney stuff, loads of features and models and well stuff.

We buy it, we look over it's new bits and pieces, coo over this model or that, then almost universally go about our chosen tasks of creating stuff in exactly the same way with the models and stuff we buy from Rendo or Daz (or whomever I've missed out).

New functions come and stay, but takeup is minimal (cloth room, hair room to name but two).  they sit in the background like a brilliant but socailly dysfunctional child, wanting to be played with but few understand them enough to take the time.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a poke at Posers user base, I think that while the Cloth Room is brilliant and I use it alot, it does seem to be written in an obscure dialect of Klingon and is about as intuitive to most of us as a bicycle is to your average haddock.

My thought is, if there was a slimmed down version, without a couple of rooms and some of the content, that was cheaper, would you buy it?  Or would you still prefer to buy it as it is now?

John.

Dunno.

In the early days of playing with Poser, I sedulously avoided the Material Room. Now, I rarely leave it. I haven't played much in the cloth room, but just knowing it's there so I can - once I have a bit of time and a few hand-holding tutorials to look at - make Poser a really attractive tool. The setup room and hair room are places where I've spent a lot of frustrating fruitless hours, so I'm not inclined to go there any time soon, but I'd really like to keep that option open. And I just bought the Miki2 face data stuff for the face room.
I'm one of those hoarders that buy stuff for a rainy day when the Internet is down and I can't log on here to bore people with my drivel. Poser's lesser-used rooms are part of that stuff.

 Hair Room is pretty much a DIY gig.  Cloth Room - well, lovely results if you can get them.  Face Room - I don't even use.

Perhaps there is a case for a Light Version of Poser.

Well, of course Daz Studio is built that way....  basic part free, other stuff
built as nonfree plugins ... and it does seem to run faster.

Poser with all its rooms and bells and whistles  is  fine  with  me just a simpler to understand   manual  would be great

 But isn't your slimmed down version what Poser Figure Artist is (or was.. Is it still available at all?)

To me, the bells and whistles is what makes Poser Poser. If I didn't want or need them I'd stick with DS.

The problem with "lite" versions of software is that they always seem to leave out one core feature. So you'd get Poser 8 Lite, with no hair, dynamic cloth, or setup room, but also no IDL, for example.
Of course, one person's core feature is another's bloat. Someone else might like that set of features. A very basic and functional core, with lots of available additional modules would be nicer so you can pick and choose what you need.

I realize that this is exactly what Daz Studio offers. But for some reason, I could never get the hang of posing in it. So I chose to go with Poser 8, rather than Studio plus a bunch of modules. But the basic idea is a sound one, I think.

Quote - ...To me, the bells and whistles is what makes Poser Poser. If I didn't want or need them I'd stick with DS.

Gee, I wish I could have said it as succinctly as you just did, TrekkieGrrrl... that is exactly right!!!

adding a price barrier to using and understanding those features means that only present "advanced" users, extreme risk takers or techies, and moderately wealthy people who can spend money on a whim will ever use understand them.

imho, the cloth room is obscure to make stuff for.  when i first used it, i was surprised at how dead easy it was after all the hubbub about how difficult it was.  i thought i must have been missing something.  but i was using svdl's office clothes for V3, which are great. 

then i tried some less well made stuff that didn't really fit in the first frame (even when i used the included initial pose), that had bad cloth settings, and was generally problematic.  that was hard.  but it's also hard to use badly made conforming clothes that don't work with JCMs and create poke through the moment you pose them.  that doesn't mean that it's hard to use the Pose room.  it just means that the people who understand how to make clothes need to do certain work to make things usable. 

i have some good dynamic clothes, including yours.  but i'd say only the ratio of the communal effort put into making dynamic clothes to that of making conforming clothes is about 1:100.  and as great as some of the people working with dynamics are, i don't think any one person can make up for that fact.

imho, we haven't seen nearly enough experimentation with dynamics in general to say how hard or easy dynamics are  to use, rather than how hard or easy the content we've made for dynamics is to use.  and while tons of people stay out of the material room, almost all modern texture sets use some form of advanced materials.  

tiered pricing would make sure that the advancement in the material room (which happened because everyone could use those materials, even if they didn't understand them) would be the end of Poser tech advancements. tiered pricing like DAZ does, where the means to create costs more and use is free, would mean advancements would be proprietary and probably secret (hence the large percentage of D|S gurus who don't know how to build noded materials).  personally, i'd stop using Poser and switch to using Blender exclusively if there was as small and closed a group of people who really understood Poser as really understand D|S.

I would keep the price as it is, as I guess it's about right, sell a single version, but give the user the chance to switch off any modules they don't want/need/use, that way they could customise Poser and stop it hogging resources for features they don't often use, but can still access them when/if they need them.

Failing that, do as they do with Vue, sell a core version for a reasonable price, and allow the user to add modules as they need them.

I've used Poser for 10 years, but have only ever used the Face and Cloth Rooms when I was asked to write a magazine tutorial about each.  I used the Hair Room a couple of times.

"Failing that, do as they do with Vue, sell a core version for a reasonable price, and allow the user to add modules as they need them."

now go and do some math ;)

Core + modules vs just buying the program complete.

last time I worked it out... was way cheaper to avoid the modules and just buy the complete program ;)

Quote - "Failing that, do as they do with Vue, sell a core version for a reasonable price, and allow the user to add modules as they need them."

now go and do some math ;)

Core + modules vs just buying the program complete.

last time I worked it out... was way cheaper to avoid the modules and just buy the complete program ;)

Good for you and your mighty "rig".  Oh, and there's an "s" in "maths", as in "arse"..

well if you want to end up paying $150-200 more for the same functions, good for you.

Why are we using profanity here?  There is nothing under discussion here worth the bloodletting.
dph

Quote - > Quote - "Failing that, do as they do with Vue, sell a core version for a reasonable price, and allow the user to add modules as they need them."

now go and do some math ;)

Core + modules vs just buying the program complete.

last time I worked it out... was way cheaper to avoid the modules and just buy the complete program ;)

Good for you and your mighty "rig".  Oh, and there's an "s" in "maths", as in "arse"..

well thanks for the edit.
I don't know what your problem is lad, but I don't care? so please feel free to take it elsewhere to someone who does care.

Quote - Why are we using profanity here?  There is nothing under discussion here worth the bloodletting.
dph

I have no idea. something annoyed him and I'm not sure what.

"something annoyed him and I'm not sure what" 

Hmm, maybe the "now go and do some math ;)" bit struck him a bit tart but hey, I'm just guessin'. ;) At any rate,

The modular approach usually does end up costing more if you buy all the modules but the rationale is that you're not going to buy all of them. Most people, if apparent use is any indication would be well served with a core that included a basic raytrace renderer. I'd bundle dynamic hair and cloth in one module, the face room in another and an advanced render module as another. The basic render engine would include a stripped down material room and would be able to utilize all shaders but nodes 'n such would be in the advanced module. That's roughly what Cinema 4D does.

From an economic standpoint, if you can get people to pay for features they'll never use, it helps to subsidize those features for the people who do. A lower end version might be better for many users but it would risk cannibalizing revenue needed to develop the more advanced features that are key to where they seem to want to position the application. At some point though, unless your new features are compelling to the majority of users, they may stop upgrading - ask Microsoft.

Quote - Good for you and your mighty "rig".  Oh, and there's an "s" in "maths", as in "arse"..

I don't get it....

Haven't you had your coffee yet? What was said that was so horrible that you felt the need to lash out? I understand it's hard to really gauge someone's intentions when they are written text, but I can't see one thing said to you that was nasty...lol.

And I only asked if you had your coffee cause, well, I can get a little testy before I've had mine ;o).

Laurie

I think that rather than eliminate (optionalize) it because it's difficult, make it easier to understand. A better manual and more intuitive interface might be a better way to go. I think that if some of these rooms had be optional purchases they would have died long ago. Too many people want to say "this is too hard to learn, I'm not gonna use it" and its only those who just can't have a program with a section they have no clue how to use and learn to use it and impress the others with what can be done. Then the others say "oh that's cool i gotta learn that" but if it's only available for extra cost, less people will actually put forth that effort. And less face it, less people using some of these rooms will be like nobody using them.

I just did the comparison between Poser 8 / Poser Pro 2010. About the only feature I really want from it (given my less-than-mighty rig) is software gamma-correction. The rest of the PP2010 features I couldn't / wouldn't use, because I don't have any high-end 3D apps I need to export to or a network at home I can turn into a render farm. And I'm not inclined to pay $250 for a side-grade - I don't qualify for the $70/$50 upgrade. $250 for software GC? I don't think so.

I also have Vue 7 Studio - got it when it was incredibly well-priced. I might not use some of those features, but I just couldn't pass up that deal. Turns out I already had Studio when I bought Esprit: I just got some unlock keys for some of the features hidden in the software.

SM? Writing this down?

Have I used it much? Well, no - having too much fun with Matmatic.

Quote - The modular approach usually does end up costing more if you buy all the modules but the rationale is that you're not going to buy all of them.

actually, when i was using D|S, i quickly had to pay for a lot more than the cost of Poser for just a few plug-ins. D|S3 Advanced is an impressive improvement on the situation.

Quote - Most people, if apparent use is any indication would be well served with a core that included a basic raytrace renderer. I'd bundle dynamic hair and cloth in one module, the face room in another and an advanced render module as another.

this would kill all the products out there with advanced material features. it would put a barrier between average users and newly rendy renders.  raytraced reflections aren't so important until everyone wants to render the Silver Surfer.  if we had, say, glowing materials, i'm sure there would be a great demand for Iron Man styled glowing lights on armored suits.  most of the people not using something most of the time is very different than  most of the people can't use something at all. imho, this is apparent by the relative diffusion of innovation and in-depth knowledge in the Poser and D|S communities.

and i'm seeing more and more popular dynamic pieces in the market.  in your scenario, those merchant's income, which i was told was very steady and reliable, would drop to about nil.

Quote - The basic render engine would include a stripped down material room and would be able to utilize all shaders but nodes 'n such would be in the advanced module. That's roughly what Cinema 4D does.

i think it's important to note here that C4D is a professional program, and has a hobbyist market of pretty much zero to judge by both its marketing and the users i've seen online.  that  pricing scheme is designed, in general, for companies that won't think twice about dropping a few thousand for a feature that helps them meet deadlines.  even Vue has more of a professional and high end market than Poser.  Poser costs $250, and that's full price.  it's only $150 as an upgrade, and cheaper on sale.  either your "base" gets a similar price, or i can't see how it would be worth it to pay developers to work on a stripped down version of Poser.  a lot of advances have been made in just the area you're suggesting as a base, and a lot of older features have remained in the areas you're suggesting they make "advanced."  add to development the cost of maintaining and supporting all these different versions, and i think it's pretty quickly not cost efficient to do.

Poser Artist already flopped.  even D|S use has advanced (pardon the pun, couldn't think of a better word) with the release of their all-in-one solution.  one of the many reasons i dropped it was that there was practically no information about and only 2 or 3 freebies for the plugins i paid so much for.  it just didn't make sense to keep investing more money and more time to use D|S than Poser.  now, with D|S 3 Advanced, i see more and more products made for advanced features for D|S.  but when everything was entirely piecemeal, as far as i can tell, it just wasn't financially viable for merchants to make anything for any of the plugins. 

Quote - From an economic standpoint, if you can get people to pay for features they'll never use, it helps to subsidize those features for the people who do.

to say people "never use" features doesn't really work when most Poser users are almost completely dependent on content creators.  users will use whatever merchants make that looks good, is easy to use, and gets promoted.  as i always say, look at how incredibly popular corvas' glamorous gowns were.  very, very, basic dynamic gowns with pretty much no features. to judge by newsletters, they sold like hotcakes. 

Quote - A lower end version might be better for many users but it would risk cannibalizing revenue needed to develop the more advanced features that are key to where they seem to want to position the application.

a lower end version might be better for many users right now assuming nothing advances in the market, no effects that require advanced features in the media become really popular, and none of the advanced features become more usable.  oh, and if the community as a whole doesn't benefit from innovations like, say EasyPose, super conforming, or other tricks for figures that only came about because no one had to pay extra to experiment and most could use those experiments..

the more barriers you add to innovation, the less innovation occurs.  why should anyone bother to pay for features if they can't buy any content using them?  and why should merchants make content no one can use?

"this would kill all the products out there with advanced material features." "nd why should merchants make content no one can use?"

In what way? I specified that the basic versiow would be able to render anything the advanced version created. As you said, the market is content driven and content creators could create all the Iron Man goodies they wanted. I'm not insensitive to the stifling of innovation notion, it just depends on what the economics are and pricing are. AFAIK, DS is still going with the use dynamic cloth free, create dynamic cloth is going to cost you extra. Whether that's a viable model remains to be seen but it's certainly one way to go. The fact remains that most people seem to not use dynamic clothing in Poser or it's a well hidden secret in the marketplace, despite any particular item selling like flapjacks.

I agree that it's important not to price the creative and talented but poor out of the market but your premise that everyone will benefit doesn't seem to have worked out in this instance. If any feature for Poser should be a compelling, must have, dynamic cloth is it - it's a no brainer. So where's the trickle down? Has bundling it for years caused a wave of creation and use? The extent that advanced shaders are present in content by contrast (the heroic work of BB notwithstanding), lies IMO in the fact that people can use them without necessarily adding a new level of complexity. The problem is not the technology, it's the interface. Make DC as easy to use as conforming - or as close as possible and it will explode - in a good way :-) That may seem unfortunate  but IMO it's just a simple fact.

I don't know if Artist failed or was killed for marketing reasons. It would have been interesting if they had made it or P5 free permanently. People, myself included do tend to be impressed by feature lists even though they won't end up using those features. There are apps that let you use advanced features for a limited period of time, which would give users a chance to see what they really need/want - though a limited number of uses would be better. Then if you like it, pay extra and unlock it as mentioned above.

"I think that rather than eliminate (optionalize) it because it's difficult, make it easier to understand. A better manual and more intuitive interface might be a better way to go. I think that if some of these rooms had be optional purchases they would have died long ago."

Jackpot! I agree. If people aren't using a feature it's primarily because either 1. They don't know it's there, 2. They don't find it useful to them, or 3. they find it too difficult to use. We can go back and forth about number 3 and whether people just aren't trying hard enough but it remains the pachyderm in the temple and one could say the same about say learning the DS interface. Is it too hard or are people simply unwilling (for their own perfectly good reasons) to invest the time to learn it 

Personally, I think that both models (all-in-one and modular) have their advantages and drawbacks.  To me, a bigger flaw in the DS model is that by depending on 3rd parties, you end up waiting/hoping that all your modules will be upgraded to new core versions. That's one reason why I prefer Opera to FireFox.

you're talking a totally different situation now. i'm very much for improved usability.  and i agree that there's a lot that could be done to improve the interfaces of these "advanced" features.  but that wasn't what you suggested.  you suggested breaking Poser into at least 4 parts because people don't use them (by your estimation- i don't think any of us really knows the Poser user base as a whole rather than our particular corner of it) now.  i'm just saying what i think that would result in.

it's not hidden at all in the marketplace,  you're probably just not looking, or actively ignoring it (in the sense that we all tend to ignore marketing or store items that don't have anything to do with what we want or need).  off the top of my head, Fabiana, SaintFox, vikke176, Nathalie, tabala and corvas have all had dynamic items that among the very few products actually promoted in the Rendo Marketplace, if not best sellers. karanta and esha both made a lot of prominent clothing sets, and as far as i could tell, Lady Littlefox's Starlight gown sold very well, as did some other very simple dynamic clothes at RDNA.  i check the "What's Hot" list here at least weekly, and i've seen more and more dynamic items on that first page.  and a few of them have been by people i can't even remember.

i'm looking for it, so i've noticed a big uptick in dynamic products, use by forum members, and use by gallery members lately.  i might be able to say it's increased since DAZ came out with dynamic clothing, but i can't be sure.

imho, dynamic clothes are already much easier to use than conforming, if they're made properly.  and i've seen nothing but post after post saying popular dynamic clothes were incredibly easy to use.  i've literally never seen someone say, "i bought  [popular dynamic item x], and i had a problem using it."  i've only seen, "i bought  [popular item x], and it was incredibly easy to follow the instructions and use.  i was really surprised that someone as [self-deprecating adjective] as me could use them easily."  so it's already possible to do usably.  that isn't to say i know how to do it, but i can tell you, yeah, people are doing it already.  like i said, i was told by a merchant that dynamic items sell well and sell consistently, if not with the same sudden influx of sales at the beginning.  those products make money steadily. 

so while you might think that there's no diffusion happening (and i could understand that, it's definitely still in early stages), the numbers don't seem to support that.  oh, and i've actually seen several clothing sets that caught my eye that warned that they weren't dynamic.  so obviously a lot of people were expecting and wanting them to be.

Quote - I specified that the basic versiow would be able to render anything the advanced version created.

not really, you didn't.  you suggested a version with an "advanced" renderer.  there is no separation between what a renderer can do and what materials are.  to be more explicit about my example, if only the "advanced" renderer can handle GI and glowing materials, if someone makes an IronMan suit with glowing eyes and center piece, the basic version can't render it properly.  graceful degradation doesn't mean it works, it just means it doesn't get but so ugly when it doesn't. 

in terms of the dynamic clothes, yeah, they seem to be working very well for DAZ based on how many of their dynamic items i see in the galleries.

Poser Artist was pretty well marketed, to judge by how much i saw it outside of here.

no, dynamic clothing is not  a no brainer in terms of popularity. years of using conforming clothes, which just don't work realistically, has given people completely unrealistic expectations of clothing.  at least  a quarter of the problems i've seen people say they have has to do with expecting something that simulates actual cloth to work as conforming clothes do, which is to bend, stretch, ignore physics and act more like skin than real cloth. real clothing needs to be cut a certain way or it gaps.   real clothing needs to have seams and reinforcements in certain places, or it's shapeless or fits poorly.  real clothes (and real bodies), have big problems when things penetrate their surfaces.

frankly, i even see unrealistic expectations with conforming clothes.  i watched a few people ask Lady Littlefox for good sitting morphs for her latest dress.  her informing them that in real life, hoop dresses don't allow you to sit in a normal chair didn't deter them.  how many people want armor that conforms and bends, completely unlike real armor?  i've read a lot of complaints about clothes poking through in poses that, in real life, simply wouldn't work in that type of clothing.  real clothing and real armor restricts movement, but many people seem to want clothes that can work in those impossible poses.

there's lots of aspects of making and using dynamic clothes that just involve changing how you think.  i totally agree that there are many ways the Cloth Room could be made more usable.  that said, the big problems i see people say they have is that they think they should come up with the cloth settings themselves (which is kind of like them deciding to make their own rigging, rather than relying on the creator), not understanding how to go from the initial pose to the final pose properly, not leaving enough time, not thinking about how gravity would actually work, and not wanting the cloth to gap, fall, drape or whatever like it actually would given a certain situation.

oh, and i never said everyone will benefit.  some people use P4 and Posette, so they'l (probably) l never benefit from any of the Poser advances in rendering or rigging. but does the community benefit as a whole?  i've already seen that it has.

" i don't think any of us really knows the Poser user base as a whole rather than our particular corner of it) now" - I concur but I think that the numerous posts here r. e. the types of clothing that sell, types of renders in the gallery, etc. do suggest a divergence between the more dedicated users who post here and the larger user base.

"you're talking a totally different situation now" - I agreed with RedPhantom that usability is a big factor in uptake of features. That's not to suggest that an alternative strategy wouldn't be viable or useful. Obviously Daz thinks it is but they are different products and to some degree different markets. The OP specifically addressed a lighter version of Poser. We can and obviously do disagree on whether that would be a good idea.

"it's not hidden at all in the marketplace" - I'm going by the repeated complaints here about the lack of DCloth by folks who are clearly wanting it and I would think have looked for it. I suppose it may be a half-full/half-empty kind of thing.

"not really, you didn't" - Actually, I did: "The basic render engine would include a stripped down material room and would be able to utilize all shaders" DS Base can render shaders that the user AFAIK has no access to for modification. I erred perhaps in using the term "advanced render." The operative phrase here is "stripped down material room." You could render Iron Man as designed, in all his glory, just not make him flash red white and blue and whistle Dixie. The point is would many/most be happy with that for less money?

"that said, the big problems i see people..." - r.e. DCloth, followed by a fairly detailed list of why people avoid it. Contrast that with This allows for you to simply load a 3D subject, load a dynamic clothing item, apply a pose and/or dial up a morph, and hit "Drape". That's it!</Daz Hype>. How hyper the hype is I don't know, but even at a 50% BS ratio, you're talking a much more approachable solution for the (unquantifiable) many people. Of course that's beyond the AIO vs. modular issue as the Poser approach would be the same in a module but you'd have a choice about buying it. Poser gives you a lot more power and control but you pay for it, use it or not.

It occurs to me that as long as a feature is used only be by the more adept, there is little external pressure to simplify it. It may seem like a paradox but if you find it easy, the way to increase adoption is to pressure SM to make it even easier.

"but does the community benefit as a whole? I've already seen that it has." - I agree, in the big picture sense that anything that makes Poser more popular/prestigious etc. is good, if only to insure its survival. Ideally, a steady revenue stream means development of features that benefit almost everyone - like the new library system and render engine. The original question was would you buy...? Would offering people more choices be anti-community? Would splitting off Cloth and, if anything, less used DHair by module or version hurt? If so, I can only assume it would be because these features wouldn't generate the revenue to support their development. I would buy Poser Lite because I use Vue and other apps. Others would I suggest, buy it because it's all they need. Ah well, an interesting and congenial conversation. I await the next edition of Prime Minister Fugazi’s question time. He comes up with some good ones.