I want to start modeling my own clothes for Poser.  Before I even start wondering what application or method I'll use for modeling I wanted to ask clothing designers a question (or two).

How do you lay down your designs before modeling?   Do you sketch ideas on paper? Do some work in Illustrator or Photoshop?  What is your process from the time an idea pops in your head until you start formulating polygons?

I know there are many schools of thoughts on this and there is no wrong or right way but I want to  hear as many suggestions as possible.

I'm a free form modeller myself, I have an idea in my head, a kind of feel for what I want, then I model it :)  3D Coat kinda lets you do that, taking the box out of modelling.

John.

 I use Wings3d, which is really easy to learn for modelling. :)

I've made mostly dynamic clothes, but it's definitely not limited to that.

I use Cinema 4D and model around the base morph and scale of V4 at zero pose (except for shoes, see below).  I use interPoser Pro to import the figure and to apply morphs for certain things, and to allow modeling around a posed foot for shoes - the ONLY situation imo where you should not model around a zeroed figure.

For shoes, since the zero pose foot is at a shape that makes no sense for a shoe, you either have to model around that and pray that your shoe will look okay when the foot is posed, or model around a posed foot and adjust the rig to compensate, when you bring it into Poser.  In older versions of Poser this isn't always possible (Stephanie Petite 3 in Poser 7 or older, for example).

For every other kind of conformer, you really want to model around a zeroed un-morphed figure or it ends up being a huge amount of extra work when you get to the rigging stage.  You can try to model around a morphed character and still get it to work sometimes, but the garment will be much less flexible and won't deform the same way as the character when posed.  There is very little leeway when trying to rig a conformer whose base shape is substantially different from the base shape of the character you're trying to rig it for.  This is why you see so few clothing items that perfectly fit drastic morphs like The Girl - it's so much work to get stuff to fit perfectly and pose well.

Sometimes I sketch in 2d but most often I just sketch in 3d, essentially modeling in low poly techniques around a figure and seeing what will work.  Since I am not very good with 2d but I'm very comfortable with 3d, I'm pretty productive with this technique.  Using the modeler's features of point snapping makes this pretty quick and visually effective for me, since you can turn the camera and look at what you're doing from all angles to see if it really works.  If you draw very quickly and/or are very comfortable with 2d visualization it would be a different story.

@ Fugazi: "Free form modeler"  That sounds interesting.  Is that similar to using ZBrush and the like?   So you don't do any sketching or pre-work before stepping into the modeler?

Different applications handle this in different ways, but you essentially draw polygons right onto the character's surface.  Here's one example (drawing stuff right onto the head of a character)

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2737392

Quote -  I use Wings3d, which is really easy to learn for modelling. :)

I've made mostly dynamic clothes, but it's definitely not limited to that.

Wings3d and Blender are names I hear a lot when someone is discussing modeling for Poser.  I'll have to check those out.  I really like your dynamic sets Grappo, do you sketch or do any sort of pre-work before the modeling process?

Blender would be my suggestion because it is über powerful and free.

Quote - I use Cinema 4D and model around the base morph and scale of V4 at zero pose (except for shoes, see below).  I use interPoser Pro to import the figure and to apply morphs for certain things, and to allow modeling around a posed foot for shoes - the ONLY situation imo where you should not model around a zeroed figure.

For shoes, since the zero pose foot is at a shape that makes no sense for a shoe, you either have to model around that and pray that your shoe will look okay when the foot is posed, or model around a posed foot and adjust the rig to compensate, when you bring it into Poser.  In older versions of Poser this isn't always possible (Stephanie Petite 3 in Poser 7 or older, for example).

For every other kind of conformer, you really want to model around a zeroed un-morphed figure or it ends up being a huge amount of extra work when you get to the rigging stage.  You can try to model around a morphed character and still get it to work sometimes, but the garment will be much less flexible and won't deform the same way as the character when posed.  There is very little leeway when trying to rig a conformer whose base shape is substantially different from the base shape of the character you're trying to rig it for.  This is why you see so few clothing items that perfectly fit drastic morphs like The Girl - it's so much work to get stuff to fit perfectly and pose well.

Sometimes I sketch in 2d but most often I just sketch in 3d, essentially modeling in low poly techniques around a figure and seeing what will work.  Since I am not very good with 2d but I'm very comfortable with 3d, I'm pretty productive with this technique.  Using the modeler's features of point snapping makes this pretty quick and visually effective for me, since you can turn the camera and look at what you're doing from all angles to see if it really works.  If you draw very quickly and/or are very comfortable with 2d visualization it would be a different story.

Thank you for this Paul.  To be honest it are your outfits that are finally pushing me to doing my own clothes.  I find your designs quite unique and I like how you use asymmetry in your outfits.  Do you also start in the modeler without any sketching etc.?

I've used Cinema4D and I found it really easy to use although I mainly used it for rendering and very little modeling.  I´ll have to look into that.

Quote - Different applications handle this in different ways, but you essentially draw polygons right onto the character's surface.  Here's one example (drawing stuff right onto the head of a character)

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2737392

I've stored the link in my bookmarks for later use.  Thanks.

If you own Cinema then by all means stick with it, it's one of the best modelers you can get anywhere - I only recommend Blender because of the price tag ($0).

I just start sticking polygons on stuff basically, to me that is "sketching" but in 3d.  Takes very little time to get going with that once you are used to polygon snapping.

Quote - If you own Cinema then by all means stick with it, it's one of the best modelers you can get anywhere - I only recommend Blender because of the price tag ($0).

I just start sticking polygons on stuff basically, to me that is "sketching" but in 3d.  Takes very little time to get going with that once you are used to polygon snapping.

Yeah I will set it up again and quite frankly it's been foolish of me not to use it (I blame bagginsbill and his VSS ;)  I might start with dynamic clothing as the rigging part scares me a little.

Modeling dynamic clothing is a great starting point!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2748221

Just don't get too ambitious with your early work imo, keep it pretty simple at first and you'll learn quicker.  The "I DID IT" sense of achievement you get is a big motivator to learn more.

Quote - Modeling dynamic clothing is a great starting point!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2748221

Just don't get too ambitious with your early work imo, keep it pretty simple at first and you'll learn quicker.  The "I DID IT" sense of achievement you get is a big motivator to learn more.

Thanks for the link.  I will start with something like a skirt perhaps to get that "I DID IT" sense.  What motivates me is that I want to do a comic using Poser and I want the main character (at least) to have a unique clothing set (I don't want people reading the story going "Hey, I have that clothing set in my library!").  I have 2 options:  Pay someone else to do it for me or discipline myself to do it.  Option A is expensive, option B should be rewarding so I'll start with that one :)

I started out with a similar goal but I ended up enjoying the modeling and rigging quite a bit.  You have good tools, really everything you need to do this kind of thing. 

 I started with modeling in Max many, many years ago and found extremely exciting.  I mainly modeled environments (houses, streets etc.) and was able to add atmosphere like snow and fog but I always found it lacked one crucial thing; people.   That's when I found Poser and this place :)  I tried for a long time to import Poser characters to Max and later Cinema4D but I was never happy with the skin materials.  I was pretty happy using C4D when bagginsbill came up with his VSS shader and when Poser 8 introduced IDL (although not nearly as good as C4Ds) I found little reason to go back to other apps for rendering. 

I use a combination of 3D Coat, Max and Zbrush.
3D Coat for laying out quick clothing on a zeroed pose model, then Max for finishing and hard surface stuff.
Zbrush for morphs, detailing, etc...basically anything you wish you could use pen and paper to make you can do in Zbrush, crazy good this program is.

Quote - @ Fugazi: "Free form modeler"  That sounds interesting.  Is that similar to using ZBrush and the like?   So you don't do any sketching or pre-work before stepping into the modeler?

:) it's very like ZB,  but IMO easier to use.

No physical prep, but I do think  a lot beforehand.  Pre thought is very important to me, I think about the kind of shape I want, any features of the garment that might be tricky.  I probably spend more time thnking than I do modelling :)  But then thinking needs no equipment, I can do it anytime.

John

In general, Wings3d is much easier to learn. But its a pure modeller. Blender has a lot more editing features but have an interface that takes a lot longer to get used to. A lot of people actually use both programs depending on the need. :)

Is there something available like kind of a core feature comparison table for the various modellers? I want to start learning modelling too. I think I will hardly have the budget to buy a Zbrush or Cinema4d I thought going with blender would be the best option.

Is there anything that speaks against blender besides the interface issue? 

Quote -

Is there anything that speaks against blender besides the interface issue? 

Not that I know of. :)   To the plus side of that, they are apparently working on a new interface too, to alleviate a lot of the difficulties people have with it. Which includes myself. :) I found Wings more intuitive and approachable.. But I do take my Wings models into other programs when I need to do certain operations that it doesn't do so well.  But all of my clothes in the marketplace and in freestuff is done 95% in Wings.

It really comes down to your own preference, with interface, features, workflow and whatnot.. I don't think there's a perfect 3d modeller.. There are tons of them, ranging from free to shareware priced to wicked expensive.. Sure, a lot of professionals I know use Maya which is super powerful, but has a rough learning curve too..

I'm just a jolly hobby artist, so do take what I say with a bucket of salt. :)

Quote - Is there something available like kind of a core feature comparison table for the various modellers? I want to start learning modelling too. I think I will hardly have the budget to buy a Zbrush or Cinema4d I thought going with blender would be the best option.

**Is there anything that speaks against blender besides the interface issue? **

Which soon won't be an issue because the interface is going through a massive revamp as we speak and should appeal more to the menu-based crowd.

I use wings3d too, I think it is the best application for box modeling in the "market", andt it is free, just download and try it.
 
I have a low poly body suit made for every figure and I start modeling from that low poly suit.

plus there are beaucoup tutorials for any modeling program you care to name, including videos on Youtube...

Quote - Is there something available like kind of a core feature comparison table for the various modellers? I want to start learning modelling too. I think I will hardly have the budget to buy a Zbrush or Cinema4d I thought going with blender would be the best option.

Is there anything that speaks against blender besides the interface issue? 

Well, Blender is open source and extensible through python scripting so considering that you like to code it would be the perfect playground for you.

The 2.4x interface is no worse than ZBrush and the learning curve is comparable to any other high-end app...go in prepared to learn and forget the naysayers, you'll do fine.

Price to feature ratio 3dCoat is worth a look, the Retopo tools alone are spanking smart. The developer is pretty dedicated so is improving the program rapidly along with being one of the first regular apps to front end Ptex which might be of interest.

Any application with a lot of functions is going to be hard to learn, don't kid yourself.  If you start out with some simple low-feature modeler, you're still going to have to spend brain power to learn it, and then when you outgrow it, all that learning goes to waste (not to mention whatever it cost!)  In my opinion if you're serious about modeling, don't start with a toy toolbox, start with the real thing (Blender, Max, Cinema etc).  Of course if you're not SURE you're serious about modeling that's a different story :)

Given that Blender is free to download and use, one tends to forget its origins: written by pros for pros. Interface design was not top priority: fast, efficient usability was. It is definitely worth the effort to learn it, just like learning Photoshop (which I'm in the middle of) is definitely going to be worth the time and effort too... and, as Paul said, that learning of whichever interface you decide to go with must also be seen in the light of an investment.

Well, if he want to start modelling clothes for Poser, for what he wants 3d max, C4d ... just need a tool for modelling and uvmapping his models, not a mega application that cost many hundreds of dollars.

You can say, if you want work seriously modelling , you need to start learning the "big" brothers, well, that's not true, all knowledge you learn in a free/cheap modelling applicaiton can be extendend easily to a big application in the future if you want.

I'll go for wings3d or any other cheap free application in the market. Start with the free applications, download them and try them.

You can download the trial versions of mega applications too, and try.