no, it wasn't..

Interesting. 

Quote - I meant it more generally. You said something about us not contributing demand simply because we are not buyers. I just don't think that's how marketing departments think. If I were DAZ, I'd be immensely interested in people's reasons to stop buying my products.

Okay, I understand what you mean.  Expanding sales to new buyers is always good, but a whole lot of businesses are very happy to exploit the known very successful market rather than explore unknown markets - and tbh the "semi-normal" Poser market is not exactly unknown (Stephanie types, Miki types, at least among the females), it's just not all that heavily demanded by buyers compared to the aforementioned Barbie - I think that's a bad thing, it's a terrible thing, but so is mass killing in Darfur and I can't do very much about that either.

Quote - Interesting. 

You have to pretty much bust your ass to get banned from here, so if he's actually banned I'm sure it's exactly what he wanted.  Not like you forget to punctuate a sentence and they ban you instantly.

So... Vicki4 reigns?

Throw in the towel?

Eh, creators who don't buy anything? Gonna continue selling V4 stuff then afterall?

Seems like the resolve of this thread leads to it... eh?

Those vendors that don't care about profit will sell what pleases them, that won't change.  The ones that actually, you know, like money and stuff, as awful as that is, they'll probably go with what makes max profit for same effort.

yes Daz could stop making Poser compatable Figures, But look at the big picture. If they quit they would loose sales, You could say they would gain a lot of Poser owners to switch. But the bigger picture is, if they are thinking. What if Poser came out with a better figure than the Daz figure. Goodby DAZ figures?

I've sceen some excelent figures, They are very expesive and are for 3DMax. But they sell very few of those figures in relation to what DAZ does, by making up in numbers. I was going to buy one of a Gorilla, and rig him up. An excelent model, Blows the DAZ Gorilla out of the water, Very expesive in relation to other Poser compatable models. But I wanted the very best for my project.

Mass sells can turn a lot of heads. There is big maket potential,  I think what should be done is sell the Top Quality Figures Seperate from the Poser Figures from the Program, That will give a Figure maker more insentive to make a super model and make his money on Mass sales. One could say it's a gamble to put in that kind of work with no guarantees. But a modeler has to have confidence in what he can achieve before he attempts such a project.

 The biggest problems with new models is Clothing, and hair support. If I had the time I would do some modeling. The real trick is to get the figure rigged so all the movements don't distort. There is no reason that a modeler out there can't make an excellent figure. I see excellent models out there at the high end program stores. That don't mean they wouldn't be interested in making models for poser. If you like modeling, You will model. The rewards will be there. Especially if DAZ turns away from Poser.

I like Poser much better than DAZ Studio, the only reason I have Daz Studio is so I can import the Aniblocks into Poser so I can then fine tune them in Poser. There are couple of things that DAZ Studio has I'd like to see incooperated into Poser, but that's a different story. The main thing is not making a model in a rush.

I would rather see Poser not make a new model for a few Poser Versions, and keep what they havein those versions, than rush to put something out that the cloths don't stay on as good as the DAZ figures and the body part meshes distort very easy. You clean those areas up with a very good model, then Who needs DAZ, all of a sudden, Daz may have cut their own throat. There is aways two side to every coin.

a figure better than daz...no problem for a well disciplined team ( although not for free,  the team would have to be compensated for their talent and time.) 

imho, the team leader should be knowledgeable in testing,  copyright laws,  posing and preferably from england.

Quote - a figure better than daz...no problem for a well disciplined team ( although not for free,  the team would have to be compensated for their talent and time.) 

imho, the team leader should be knowledgeable in testing,  copyright laws,  posing and preferably from england.

LMAO!!!

Laurie

Sorry, Laurie gets my nomination to head the team. No matter how it turned out, we'd all have a BALL! 

Quote - Sorry, Laurie gets my nomination to head the team. No matter how it turned out, we'd all have a BALL! 

I'm disqualified. I'm not British...lolol.

giggle

Laurie

How are Daz figures becoming incompatible with Poser?  I've seen it mentioned in a couple of threads now, but I haven't noticed an explanation.  (Apologies if I missed an explanation earlier in this thread....)

Zygote (Daz) figures would seem to have been what made Posers 3 and 4 desirable products.  It's strange to think of the two growing apart, but somehow it also seems a bit remarkable that they've stayed together as long as they have.

I think the thing which makes me most concerned here is the idea that Poser is being changed enough that certain figures will stop working.  Given the extensive reliance on ERC in Poser figures, I'm very concerned that it will end up being broken.  If SM is stating that they simply don't, and won't, support certain things, I really do worry about the future of all of the hacks and tricks we use so often to improve the results we get from Poser.

I don't know either, especially since SM fixed the conformer scale bug(s).

I wouldn't worry about ERC too much since SM has finally embraced it as a supported feature (Dependent Parameters). 

Quote - I wouldn't worry about ERC too much since SM has finally embraced it as a supported feature (Dependent Parameters).

I thought the Dependent Parameters tools were restricted to editing ValueParm links.  Which would make it an extension of the original FBM functionality.  Can the feature do more than that?

They did introduce that largely unused alternative to ERC, with Poser 7.  But that doesn't seem to be quite the same thing.  I may be confused, however.  :lol:

The DAZ figures are starting to use Scaling in their rigging that is inconsistant with Poser's scaling ability and the SM figures are now using Capsule Falloff zones which do not work at ALL in DS. Tit for tat I'd say.

I want to point out that DS wouldn't be where it is right now without community effort.  Not bagging on it, I LIKE the program.
But...
Uber shaders and lighting?  Thank omnifreaker.  
Most of the original shaders outside the base?  Poseworks was the one who made them.
Hand Grip?  That was rigger (sadly, that was a much-needed program that kind of just fizzled out).  
AniMate?  gofigure!

See, we're still waiting for Smith Micro to do it for us.  If innovation is going to come in Poser, it's got to come from the community.  Smith Micro is going to fix flaws in the base program, and  maybe add some new features.  If we want Poser to be something better, we have to be willing to MAKE it better.  This isn't just figures.  I love that Phil is still making plugins for Poser.  It's probably not making him the same kind of money that he might be making had he chosen to take a walk down another path.  But you can see his passion for the program AND the community behind it.
I'm not saying making money is a bad thing.  But that can't be all of what it's about.  

On the other hand....if you're going to proclaim from the rooftops that it's an absolute NECESSITY, for god's sake, find a way to support the creator.  I hear over and over how we need regular clothes and regular looking people....and, you know what?  Those get clearanced out of the store within a year.  Why?  NO ONE IS BUYING THEM. 

Some of the stuff we want will end up free.  Most of it won't, and we have to accept that.  We have to kind of realize that DAZ's model may not be what everyone goes with.  But, on both sides, vendors and users, we need to build up the program to what we want, not blame everything on Smith Micro.  You can get some freaking amazing work from Poser.  You just have to be willing to do the work.  So, if your answer to "how can I do this in Poser?" is "Use another program", maybe this isn't really the forum for you.  We, as a community (not just Renderosity, but RDNA, SM, DAZ, etc) need to be willing to work, not just look for a Make Art button.

I don't what I could possibly replace the Daz figures with if the next generation releases are Poser unfriendly.

Phil has rightly encouraged user creativity as part of the solution, however, let's be honest: new figure creation or extensive modifications of already available suitable human models is extremely difficult and tedious work. My experience as a consumer suggests that only a handful of artists have the skill and patience to create something worth using. And I'm not one of them. While I'm a pretty fair hand at creating models of mechanical devices and buildings, my attempts at creating a human figure have been laughably pitiful at best.

I'd also like to point that that while Daz takes a lot of hits in the 3D forums, and not just here, for years they've been turning out complex, fairly high quality products at bargain prices. My main complaint with their latest figures is what seems to be a deliberate policy of giving every model an exaggerated anime caricature look. While users can overcome this limitation with lots of tweaking, I'm not sure the resuts consistently justify the effort. At least, not for me.

(ok, finally deciding to post this.)

actually, no, it's really not that hard to get banned.  i mean, i don't know any details of communication, but the base issue was pretty easy to step into.  i know i would have made the same mistake in his position, if you consider it a mistake.

and i don't think V4's popularity is due to anything but her support.  certainly not any notion of quality or performance for average users.  if V4 had Miki 1's support, i don't think she'd be anywhere near as popular as Miki was on release.  new figures don't work because there's pretty much no follow-through, and that's assuming they get lots of support on launch.  imho, people have to see new stuff they crave for the a figure at least once a week, and once a day would be better.  they have to want to use the figure, and that means wanting to get content for the figure.  even more importantly, they have to believe there will be more stuff they'll like in the future.  they have to know that when they return to the market place, there will be more stuff they crave, and more to spend money on.

sure perfectionists care about how a figure bends.  but if most people cared about that, there wouldn't have been so many images with V4's craptastic shoulders unaltered before corvas came out with his fix.  people who are perfectionists with textures seem to be happy with the new UV mapping.  but average  texture merchants just tweak merchant resources a little, and don't worry that much about things like stretching or seams because they let the resource handle seams and resolution.  and that's the people selling textures, not using them.  if people really cared about realistic proportions and anatomy, i can't imagine anyone would use V4.  my boyfriend cannot help actually exclaiming and talking about her arms every time i load her.  and even i can tell her back is just awful in default, and very, very few morphs improve it.  if expressions were that important to most users, V4's would be used more than versions before her. her topology is smoother, but how many people take advantage of it by making custom morphs?

the average user likes V4 because she gets all the cool new stuff, and will get all the  cool new stuff until she's replaced.

for a figure to be loved by the masses, people have to see and want it in the galleries. they have to see and want  the stuff for it in the market.  they have to want to feed and clothe that figure, so to speak.  and they have to be able to load and render.  not load and render and achieve perfection.   just load and render make what everyone else is making.

the thing is, if (when?)  DAZ stops supporting Poser, the same people who won't bother switching to a new figure probably won't bother switching to new software.  and people like new stuff, not old.  if lots of merchants, especially those in the top 50 or 100,  make it clear they'll support a specific new figure, they could set a new standard and make lots of money.   or they could just keep supporting the last Vicky to work in Poser, and still make lots of money.  but it's up to developers.  the issue is that it's not up to developers as individuals, but as a large group.  

so this thread is as relevant to merchants (or merchants to be) as they want to make it.  if DAZ does stop supporting Poser, or even significantly undercut their Poser version of V4, then it is an opportunity.  but i think the big issue would be coordination of effort rather than independent choice.

Quote - a figure better than daz...no problem for a well disciplined team ( although not for free,  the team would have to be compensated for their talent and time.) 

imho, the team leader should be knowledgeable in testing,  copyright laws,  posing and preferably from england.

If anyone can make this happen, IMO, it's you.

Good to read you, matey.

 I'm amazed that no more people have jumped in here and screamed ANTONIA!

Right.. she's not done, but she WILL be. As will Brad, who, although a lot less exposed here, will be equally amazing.

There ARE other people than the modelers at Daz (whomever they are after Anton left?) that can make GOOD looking humans!

And from all I have seen, Antonia is going to be as free as Vickie[insert number here] - as will (at leas I think...) Brad.

And both of these figures have joints that FAR surpasses anything Daz has ever come out with.

Seriously.. I'm puzzled.. Why are you all acting like Antonia doesn't exist? she has a thread her with more than 100 pages... it's not like she's a secret! There's a working beta out - for free. She has an awesome body and a nice, easily morphable face (I should know, I made several face morphs for her in an even earlier beta stage) 

I can sorta understand why Brad is overlooked.. I haven't heard about him for a while either and he is a gasp MALE figure. And we all know that only gay people (and TrekkieGrrrl) ever renders males ;) But still.. he is absolutely up to par for a male counterpart for Antonia.

BUT...

the thing is.. just as some people do not like the Daz characters, or the native Poser ones, there are thouse who'll shun everything JUST BECAUSE IT COMES FROM RENDEROSITY! There. I said it. Some people actually hates this place! Whether or not their hatred is justified is beyond the point. They do and they would rather break their arm than download a figure if it came from here.

Is it stupid? Yes. Is it stupid to disregard the native Poser figures after ONE load of them with their default low rez textures? Yes.

As it is easily seen from my renders, my favourite figure is Simon. A native Poser character. He has a GREAT body and a very morph-friendly face. But a lot of people just doesn't even consider the native Poser figures because they've HEARD that ther'yre crap.

The women are. They look odd. But the males are absolutely quite lovely!

And no there isn't a lot of content for them. But as it's been said. it's buyer's market here. I have made stuff for the native Poser figures (Simon et. al..) and it sold so bad that most of it has even fallen off the Clearance vagon and into the great big void of Has Beens.

And it doesn't really make me feel like doing a lot more for those characters, eventhough they're my personal favourites... Not much of an idea in spending weeks on something that'll sell once or twice and then no more...

So the last two things i've made has (semi-reluctantly) been something for V4. A character I never use myself other than to make promos for my stuff.. but.. it sells... Go figure...

just to say, i didn't mention Antonia not because she's not a quality figure.  she is. it's because quality of the figure is pretty much irrelevant, imho.  it's mainly the quantity of support.  quality of support is important too, but i'd say quantity is more important.

We'll have to see what happens when there's a stable, official release out for Antonia. I know that some people, including content developers, are holding back while she's still in beta, which is quite understandable. Honestly, I've never thought of her as a serious competitor to any of the DAZ figures. I think that at best, she might serve a niche market of people interested in higher levels of realism then what the more doll-like DAZ creations provide.

If of course DAZ really decided to throw Poser-compatibility out the window - which I believe when I see it - that might change.

 sigh  Since people keep bringing up the dphoadley thing...
He's not banned anymore.  He had a 7-day ban.  It's over.  Been over for a while.  He's not here right now by his own choice.

i know.  i was just responding to what pjz99 said.

For the record, I never said he was still banned. I said he was driven off by intolerance. He feels unwelcome here due to the treatment he has received for daring to be open, honest and opinionated. I can't say I haven't felt the same way on certain days.

 Well, I'm sorry to hear that.  And, I'm very sorry to hear that he'd rather remember the one occasion we asked him to treat others with the respect that we asked others to show him on several occasions.  if he wants to think that's the reason for his ban, that's fine, but that doesn't make it the truth.  sigh

Anyway, we were on the subject of Poser, Figures, and what would happen if....?

the figures would have to be kept out of the forums and kept secret.

sorry, not me Sam,  there's a far better leader in our community than i.

the team leader,  i think she should have my sister's first name and,  having been put through the fire,  she should have my cousin's courage too.

Quote -  sigh  Since people keep bringing up the dphoadley thing...
.... He's not here right now by his own choice.

Hehe, so that's why this thread isn't full of renders of posette... I knew there must be a reason. ;-)

Quote - I'm amazed that no more people have jumped in here and screamed ANTONIA!

Okay.  :laugh:

Antonia is the only figure I use.  The figure rescued Poser for me.  I was ready to give up on it because of bad joints and ever-increasing poly counts and all of the figures and garments that only look decent in their default states, before any posing or morphing is applied.  Antonia is the best thing going right now in Poserdom, IMO.  I pine for a male counterpart for her, and really, really hope phantom3D is coming back with Brad.

:thumbupboth:

"...they would rather break their arm than download a figure if it came from here." 

Unless Renderosity creates the figure, why should it be limited to here? The UberWench and her accessories better be available everywhere I would think.

Quote - the figures would have to be kept out of the forums and kept secret.

sorry, not me Sam,  there's a far better leader in our community than i.

the team leader,  i think she should have my sister's first name and,  having been put through the fire,  she should have my cousin's courage too.

I await with great interest.  

Renderosity has a lot of Quality Clothes, Hair, and Props, and also Figure textures. They match up with anything at DAZ. The hard part is Breaking the monopoly of the DAZ Figures. Why. When they come out with a figure. They already have Clothes and Hair in the works that are comming out at the same time. They usually are some common everyday cloths that is a must. and they are off. Then you all ready know they are comming out with the Charactures counter part person. They have that reputation.

If you want to compete, you can't come out with one figure. Male or Female. You need a committed package working with a group of clothing artist. If it is not coorinated, you are waisting your time. DAZ you know what is comming, they announce it in advance. The only reason Posers Figures don't match up is Quality Figures and Clothing. If you had Quality Figures with Poser. There wouldn't be this conversation. I do have some nice G2 Poser Figures. But as mentioned before. They don't compare with DAZs charatures, as there meshes fall apart. I only use them as background figures. 

Poser has to coordinate with some good artist. I've Scene a little bit of ANTONIA. Then there is the other figure mentioned as a good Male Characture. Something to considder is how do you  use the dials match up with each other. You have to remember there are always new people comming into the Poser Comunity. If they have to figure out 2 different styles of how to manipulate the charactures which may be different. This is something to take into account.

I only get to go throught the forum everyonce in a while, as I am finishing up on a full lenght movie, and have very little extra time to look at every thing. If I need something I look at what's new. I have every thing I will use as the need comes up marked, and buy at that time.

I am happy with M4 and V4, but by no means wouldn't be open to a Quality Female and Male figure. But with out cloths that work well. Well lets say my movies are not people running around nude all the time. Lets face it. How many times have you walked down the street and every body walking down the street was nude. I like a little realality here.

Trekkie, I don't really think about antonia as an option because when I saw that ugly nose of her the first time, I just couldn't get interested.  :

This question may be slightly off the central topic here, but it does relate to some points that have already been raised in the discussion.

Why do male Daz figures generally receive far less support than the females? Is there that much of a disparity in their popularity when measured by sales?

Try finding something as simple as a t-shirt for M3 in the free section, and I think you might be surprised at how little is available. I was.

@Winterclaw - noses can be altered.  Just ask 90% of American women.

ducks 

Sam, true but I still don't like it.  :

Quote - Why do male Daz figures generally receive far less support than the females?

Boobs.

Quote - Trekkie, I don't really think about antonia as an option because when I saw that ugly nose of her the first time, I just couldn't get interested.  :

Antonia has a very morphable nose :)

IMO all versons of Vickie has been fugly out of the box. But they, too, asre easily morphed :)

There are some figures that are hard to morph though. There was this females, whose name eludes me right now, the one that looked very latin. No matter what I ever did I couldn't get rid of her oversized conk...

As I said, Antonia caters to a niche market. I'm just not sure which one, nose-fetishists or people who can use morphs.

Any human model that actually HAS a nose is number one with me ;o)....lol.

No-nose Vickys have been a pet peeve of mine since there was a Vicky ;o).

Laurie

I vote for Antonia as well, as the new flagship figure. I happen to like her nose the way it is. Much more natural shape and size IMHO. odf and friends have done a super job. And her rigging is just amazing, phantom3D's best work IMHO. So, if Daz does quit making Poser compatible figures, (which I dont see happening) no worries, there are already suitable replacements.

Antonia and Brad could indeed fill much of the void, if they are not ignored. As someone above mentioned though they need to be seen being used in the galleries. As nice as the forums are, the forums do not make a trend. There are too few people who actually even read the forums. But if the figures had some organized marketing advertisement in the galleries (like Daz does) they may have a chance.

More important, if the various content creators see the figures being used and as a viable new source of cash. Without that any figure is likely doomed to obscurity.

I agree that it does not matter how good or craptacular a figure is. It all depends on the perception of the masses. People will truly buy anything as long as its the popular thing to do. You could likely sell them a stick figure, and call it the most fantastic Poser figure ever made as long as it was all the fad this year, they'd buy it.

I see an opening in the market for a 3rd party Daz to Poser import plug-in or Python fix for the problem of compatibility.

As to figures, more, I want more and better,  then I'll want more and betterer, and.....

Quote - JenX: See, we're still waiting for Smith Micro to do it for us.  If innovation is going to come in Poser, it's got to come from the community.  Smith Micro is going to fix flaws in the base program, and  maybe add some new features.  If we want Poser to be something better, we have to be willing to MAKE it better.  This isn't just figures.  I love that Phil is still making plugins for Poser.  It's probably not making him the same kind of money that he might be making had he chosen to take a walk down another path.  But you can see his passion for the program AND the community behind it.

My point exactly. You just said it better, Jen.

the team leader should be charitable as well,  considering a percentage of the profits will be going to help the less fortunate.

hi Sam

my sister's name is Karen.

Quote - hi Sam

my sister's name is Karen.

O.o

Yer got mail.

I don't know why I am bothering to post on this but it seems to me the best strategy would be to adapt an existing figure. Say the Victoria 3 Reduced Resolution model since it is light on resources and there is still a lot of content around and software to convert V4 content etc. to it. There are new tools that make distributable changes easier, legal and kosher.

V3 makes strong male characters, kids, realistic, toon... what ever you want. Thing to do is make a V3RR variant like the Eve or Nea variant of Posette. Unimesh has great topology and sensible UVs. Re-rig with capsule fall-offs... make injection JPs for male and child variants, fix the scalability and de-particularize the face with new nostril and eyelid morphs  and create new more sophisticated expression morphs. Give her a nice vulva like Judy's. I find the Generation 3 mesh incredibly robust... a good test of a mesh is how well it can body bag disparate figure shapes...

The Poser 4 Nude figures and the DAZ3 Unimesh can be successfuly shaped to pretty much any figure... try it with Wardrobe Wizard (though the head and feet will be locked). Those mesh can do M4 and V4 beautifully but also Rikishi and other dramatically different shaped figures. Has to do with mesh flow as far as I can tell... V4 and the EF figures just break when you try that radical stuff with them.

V3 and Posette had excellent mesh... in each case it was the sculpting and rigging that failed. The problem with both DAZ and EF figures is that the designers seem loath to base them on realistic anatomy and just provide a heroic or super-model injection for them. Post-P4 Poser figures seem to have almost perversely ugly default surface sculpting and DAZ makes outlandishly stylized proportions and structural sculpting.

They just don't seem to employ artists or scale modelers in the design process... that or the desire to pander to an imagined audience distorts the hell out of the sculpting. Independent modlers seem quite capable of realism that the big companies can't or will not attempt... the big guys seem not to get that a proportional and realistic and somewhat neutral base is easier for users to change into heroic fantasy forms then a wild fantasy figure is to be turned into something half-way realistic.

As a retired commercial artist of some respectable success... I feel Poser/DAZ has miss-calculated by splitting Poser between the tech enthusiasts and Fantasy theme end-users... work-a-day artist would have embraced Poser had the figures been realistic and more non-specific in the face sculpting. I used the P4 Figures and V2 and V2 Male extensively for paid work because I could make them my own from Toon to realistic. The only problem was finding respectable clothing, realistic settings and realistic hair styles. The original Poser 4 hair was the last truly real world style hair I've seen. Not even Hollywood stars wear the Poser hair available now.

You will notice when you see commercial work that the P4 and P5 are most often used... not out of laziness by the artist as many non-professionals seem to believe but simply because they are the most appropriate figures for commercial work.

I'll climb back in my hole now.

Please don't crawl back into your "hole." I agree with every word.

Quote - I don't know why I am bothering to post on this but it seems to me the best strategy would be to adapt an existing figure. Say the Victoria 3 Reduced Resolution model since it is light on resources and there is still a lot of content around and software to convert V4 content etc. to it. There are new tools that make distributable changes easier, legal and kosher.

V3 makes strong male characters, kids, realistic, toon... what ever you want. Thing to do is make a V3RR variant like the Eve or Nea variant of Posette. Unimesh has great topology and sensible UVs. Re-rig with capsule fall-offs... make injection JPs for male and child variants, fix the scalability and de-particularize the face with new nostril and eyelid morphs  and create new more sophisticated expression morphs. Give her a nice vulva like Judy's. I find the Generation 3 mesh incredibly robust... a good test of a mesh is how well it can body bag disparate figure shapes...

The Poser 4 Nude figures and the DAZ3 Unimesh can be successfuly shaped to pretty much any figure... try it with Wardrobe Wizard (though the head and feet will be locked). Those mesh can do M4 and V4 beautifully but also Rikishi and other dramatically different shaped figures. Has to do with mesh flow as far as I can tell... V4 and the EF figures just break when you try that radical stuff with them.

V3 and Posette had excellent mesh... in each case it was the sculpting and rigging that failed. The problem with both DAZ and EF figures is that the designers seem loath to base them on realistic anatomy and just provide a heroic or super-model injection for them. Post-P4 Poser figures seem to have almost perversely ugly default surface sculpting and DAZ makes outlandishly stylized proportions and structural sculpting.

They just don't seem to employ artists or scale modelers in the design process... that or the desire to pander to an imagined audience distorts the hell out of the sculpting. Independent modlers seem quite capable of realism that the big companies can't or will not attempt... the big guys seem not to get that a proportional and realistic and somewhat neutral base is easier for users to change into heroic fantasy forms then a wild fantasy figure is to be turned into something half-way realistic.

As a retired commercial artist of some respectable success... I feel Poser/DAZ has miss-calculated by splitting Poser between the tech enthusiasts and Fantasy theme end-users... work-a-day artist would have embraced Poser had the figures been realistic and more non-specific in the face sculpting. I used the P4 Figures and V2 and V2 Male extensively for paid work because I could make them my own from Toon to realistic. The only problem was finding respectable clothing, realistic settings and realistic hair styles. The original Poser 4 hair was the last truly real world style hair I've seen. Not even Hollywood stars wear the Poser hair available now.

You will notice when you see commercial work that the P4 and P5 are most often used... not out of laziness by the artist as many non-professionals seem to believe but simply because they are the most appropriate figures for commercial work.

I'll climb back in my hole now.

I know that it's a fault to post here because my time is so limited at the moment but anyway ... *

And no there isn't a lot of content for them. But as it's been said. it's buyer's market here. I have made stuff for the native Poser figures (Simon et. al..) and it sold so bad that most of it has even fallen off the Clearance vagon and into the great big void of Has Beens.*

You are right, Trekkie! When it comes to character creation I am hardly able to finish one character within a month as textures and morphs have to be done from scratch. And I confess that it hurts a lot to sell at most up to 30 units and then the item drowns in clearance. But it really seems to be all about that support thing. When it comes to "non-Victorias" I can see that even a little amount of new add-ons (clothes, hair) here and there makes characters sell for a long time. Each time a new set for Terai Yuki or Miki 2 hits the marketplace several sales of (rather old) character sets I offer are guaranteed. And as I do not care for selling two dozens of copies on the first day but more for a long lifetime of a product I can say that the "niche" character I've made that still get some add-ons here and there where worth the effort it took to make them.

Antonia has a very morphable nose :)

Yes, she has! Better some more polygons to tweak but a doll-nose that has to be stretched to fit an adult woman...