Quote -
I know they are referencing lost revenue, but what I'm trying to get at is that they inflate numbers based on worldwide piracy and use it to try and influence law makers in the US. For example trying to exert pressure on ISPs to block people etc.
If 95% of music sold in America was pirated, then music would not exist in this country as there would be no way to make a profit of it.

No one is claiming that %95 of the music sold is pirated.

Pirated music is very rarely sold-- its "shared". You can argue that sites like Rapidshare are, in effect, selling access to a stock of pirated material . . . but since these are all offshore private companies, we have no idea what their revenues are. Looking at the bandwidth they eat up, they must be very large in deed (Rapidshare has been, according to Alexa, as much as %4 of total Internet traffic!, and if you add up all the "share" sites, it looks to be at least %10 of all traffic)

Quote -
If 95% of music sold in America was pirated, then music would not exist in this country as there would be no way to make a profit of it.

Sales for the music industry are dismal. Any number of bands will tell you that piracy has destroyed their record sales, and they're quite right. If you look at sales figures, its clear that unless people mysteriously stopped listening to music, they're getting their music without paying for it.

Its also notable that in segments of the record business where piracy is hard (vinyl) or doesn't match the demographic (country/urban/classical), sales remain pretty good. Any band that appeals to a technically literate user with a broadband connection and internet savvy pretty quickly finds their stuff is pirated, often before its released  . . . and it has a very obvious effect on sales.

Good to know the big guns are doing this, but their files are a bit easier to spot so it's dead easy for these sites to stop accepting them to save themselves the litigation. Even easier for the film pirates to just upload them a couple of rars at a time. It would take regulations for sites to check the contents of rars etc before putting them up, and that opens a whole can of privacy worms with legitimate files.

See, now I think everyone is beginning to see just how convulated this whole situation is.   The ultimate solution to end piracy....KILL THE INTERNET!!  LOL!

Seriously, piracy is wrong, but this time I have to agree with Voodoo128...Inflating numbers and using tactics to scare people away from it is not the way to go.

Again, as long as the Internet exist, there will always be people downloading.  Once you start regulating this, piracy may slow down, but so will several other things tied to the Internet as well.  When ISPs start monitor what we download, espect privacy litigation.

Again, as arachiac as it may sound, I really do believe in the addage "You catch more flies with honey."

Quality material and treating your customers and fans with respect will go a long way.  It's amazing to me that none of the articles I've read about this speak to this fact.

And me just being on the outside looking in, from the looks of all these awards shows, red carpet parties, entertainment news entries and such...It doesn't seem like piracy is hurting the entertainment industry over here at all.

The internet is about the OWNER sharing, not others sharing things of the owner.

It's simple. If you make a cake you can share it with your neighbour. But if someone enters your house, takes the cake and shares it with your neighbour, that's stealing.

Always find similar situations in physical life, you will see things crystal clear.

Well if we're getting onto the music industry then I think in some ways pirated music has been a boon to the fans. Groups are now having to perform live for their money rather than sitting in their villas and mansions just waiting for their monthly royalty cheques to arrive.
The live music scene has never been healthier than it is today. 80's & 90's bands are having to come out of their self imposed exiles and start actually working for our money. Gone are the day's when an artist can cut an album and then just sit in luxury in their ivory towers until they deemed it the right time to cut another album to keep them in the lifestyle they have become acustomed too. It seems to me that a good solo artist or group can still make an execptionally good living. But they have to perform live to do it these days. It's the record companies that are crying into their cocktail's. As the middlemen they're suddenly realising that they can be dispensed with. That's why more and more artists are recording in independant studio's and releasing and selling their own music online in the form of downloads or hard copy mail order cd's. A lot of the main players in the music industry have acted like parasites on the backs of the artists they're suppose to represent since the first ever record went on sale. Raking off huge percentages of an artists income and then dumping them as soon as they fell out of favour. The internet has been a remarkable servant to the people who make the music and their fans. Less so for the business empires built on sucking the blood out of them. And it's ironic that the pirates have had the greatest influence in bringing about these changes for the better. The music industry produces music they want us to hear. The internet gives us the music the people want to hear. Their is a difference!

Quote - The internet is about the OWNER sharing, not others sharing things of the owner.

It's simple. If you make a cake you can share it with your neighbour. But if someone enters your house, takes the cake and shares it with your neighbour, that's stealing.

Always find similar situations in physical life, you will see things crystal clear.

It can also be argued that if I bought a physical CD and give it to my friend, then it's okay.  But if I bought a digital copy from iTunes and gave it to him, then I just committed piracy.

There's always two sides to every situation, or better yet...three sides.  I'm just saying.

We are not talking about music. Music bands can sell less disks, then loss that 2% of the share they get (98% goes to the publisher, 2% to the musician), and get 40% of the concerts with pirate fans. So for musicians it may be good.

We are talking about 3D works. It takes a lot of work, knowledge and research to learn and make them. And we have no other source of income. I can't make a concert of 3D models :) So don't compare these situations, they are not related.

Having worked in a record store In the 90's I have to agree with drakmanover. Albums and CD's were and still are an inverted pyramid system when it comes to the costs. We bought the stuff from distributers and put a 60% mark up on them unless the album was being pushed by the record company (new release, 30% markup  for two weeks so that it gets bigger sales - higher chart placement - bigger sales) So non pushed Cd's were £ 16.99, upwards, pushed could be as low as £9.99 (loss leading for two weeks, I don't think so)

Just my opinion but it would have been nice to see a titled Forum Coordinator have ZERO TOLERANCE for warez, not playing devil's advocate. :/ 

I'm not suggesting to change site rules or whatever, just an observation and my opinion. 

Quote - hiperia3d wrote: people that may have bought just take it because it's offered to them free lots of times per day, and also because at some point they are not conscious because they end thinking it was released as freeware, or cc, and the author many times becomes anonymous.

I agree, everyday it is easier to get warez and for more people it is easier to pretend it hurts nobody.   So sad... 

hiperia3d

True. Their not related! But by example the music industry has had change forced upon it. And the 3d community could learn from that.
I visited a site recently that I did'nt know existed until I was told about it. Some modellers here on Rendo are also selling on their own sites at roughly half the price they are on here.
Up to now I have bought around 6 or 7 models in the week I have known about it. And I'm spreading the word amongst my friends and they amongst their friends also.
Value for money is the name of the game. And I think it's only a matter of time before more and more modellers shift away from the big selling sites (who take exhorbitant commissions) and then pass the savings onto their customers in the form of lower prices.
A lot of people who might be tempted or forced to use pirated content now because of budget restraints may well start buying more from the "within budget" independants.
I very much liken the big 3d selling sites such as Rendo, RDNA etc. to the huge record companies in this respect. After all lets face it. they're the middlemen. They don't actually produce "diddly". But they take a massive percentage from those that do which in turn forces up prices. If the big sellers were charging say, 50c to a $1 fee for every sale that went through their sites they would still make a great amount of money. But prices could be brought down to a level that brings a lot more buying customers into their stores instead of just window shoppers. A model might well be worth $10. But by the time the sellers put their commission on it's more likely to be nearer $20. And that's where it compares to the recording industry!
Lastly! I buy from here because I can view whats on offer here. But my first stop will always be at  the independants stores first. And as my list of independants grows I will start spending a lot less here. Because (in general) it's far cheaper, more intimate and a far better shopping experience buying direct from the actual producer than through a middleman.

Just my opinion.

rakmanover you answer yourself. If brokers charge a 50% we should increase our price 50% to get the same, but we get more sales, because getting the same sales from a personal site is not hard, it's impossible.

The fact is that piracy forces us to get 0% of those sales. Those people will never pay, I know. But with the massive public sharing lots of people that may have bought never will. Again, not that they don't want to support what they like. It's because many people end justifying this, or think in good will that all that is free or makes no real harm.

I agree totally with AprilYSH. Anyway I passed the data I found to someone here in Rendo staff and they say they will see what they can do, so well, it seems the staff do see things crystal clear.

Working for free is something no one does. You don't go to a doctor or to an auto mechanic, and tell them: work for free. So why the hell we in the software or computer content creation should? I just can't understand it.

Pirates are criminals. As simple as that. Just translate this situation to your job, your day to day life, find a comparable situation and you will understand.

As I said, I feel ashamed when I heard that maybe some day I can go to a music shop and be unable to buy a CD because my country gets banned.  And sometimes I try to see a video and I get a message telling me that my country is banned. Do you want this in yours?

hiperia3d

You miss my point entirely. If your selling a model of your own here on Rendo then the price includes Rendo's commission fee's. If you were selling it direct to the public you could sell it for less and still make more money than you get selling it here.
If a potter can sell his own wares direct to the public online. Then why can't a 3d artist do the same? Why do you need Rendo or whoever to sell your products for you? If your a full time professional you should be trying to keep your costs as low as possible. So why is it OK for you to pay 50% of your products selling price to a middleman like Rendo? It does'nt make economic sense to me I'm afraid.
I'm not justifying piracy. Far from it in fact. What I'm advocating is bringing down prices so that piracy looses it's motivation. You hate pirates sharing your products. But your more than happy to let other pirates take half of your income.

It sounds a bit hypicritcal to me!

I don't consider Renderosity pirates. They provide a high traffic channel. One can sell pottery in a village on a mountain, or can sell them in a big avenue in a city and pay taxes.

Yes I understand drakmanover, but you say "lowering prices so they loose their motivation". And nothing can be cheaper than free.

But now you have the internet! Without it Rendo would'nt exist. So if they can take advantage of it then why can't you. Part of my business is creating websites for a living. So I know what I'm talking about here. The price of setting up a website with downloadable products is negligable compared with what you pay in 3rd party commission fee's. There are many ways of promoting your site. Recipricle linking, product gateways, forums etc. are all good promotional tools that can be initiated for no or very little outlay. Customer newsletters helps to keep your site at the forefront of your customers minds.
You say Rendo provide you with a "high traffic channel". But if you sold 10 products on Rendo for $10 each thats $100. Take off their commission and your left with $50. Sell the same product direct for $5 you only need half the Rendo sales to make the same amount of money. But as your selling your products cheaper (and with a vigorous marketing strategy) you will increase your site visits and sales. Everyone's a winner!. You earn more money. Your customers get your products for less. And people who were using unafordable pirated content can now afford to buy products themselves because your prices have fallen to within their price range.
I buy alot of content here because I have to. If I see the same products (or similar) somewhere else for less then I'm going to buy them there. Xurge3d is a prime example of how an independant modeller can be extremely successful without the need for a middleman. If the products are good enough they will always be in demand wherever they are sold. But the outlet that sells them the cheapest will always get the most business.

sorry drak your counting is out. 5x10 sales is still 50

Grangehearts

LOL!. Yep your right. It's been a very long day, lol

Still though. He could sell them for $7.50 and he'd only need 7 sales to make the same money. And his customers would still be getting his products 25% cheaper/ Err! I think. lol

Quote - Just my opinion but it would have been nice to see a titled Forum Coordinator have ZERO TOLERANCE for warez, not playing devil's advocate. :/  

Couldn't agree more. Usually the ones that try to justify it or play devils advocate are the ones that have not been directly effected i.e. not had their hard work stolen. As someone that has spent months creating commercial addons for game communities only to see them end up on a torrent site the next day, all I can see is red and wanting to hurt the millions of users that use warez/torrent sites. It's not as much about the lost sales as it is about someone stealing and justifying their actions because 'everyone does it", what a load of BS. I equate a person that runs a warez site with a child molester, the worst of the worst and the users are not much better...

As for the claim that the users that d/l and never pay for anything they d/l being small, I seriously doubt that.

Try before you buy,... just another way to justify getting something for free.

Quote - Just my opinion but it would have been nice to see a titled Forum Coordinator have ZERO TOLERANCE for warez, not playing devil's advocate. :/ 

I'm going to take acception to this because I'm the only titled forum coordinator that played devil's advocate.  First off, you really don't know where I stand.  I can play devil's advocate if I wish to challenge "conventional wisdom".  So, what, saying I have ZERO TOLERANCE for warez would've made you feel better?  Here's a secret.  Those who have said they have ZERO TOLERANCE are guilty of it at least once in their lives, which is truly sad because they are being hypocrits.

One thing about me, you're not going to get someone who is going to willingly join the masses on a witch hunt, because I've been on both sides of the fence, thus I understand both sides to some degree.

This does not mean that I advocate pirating and to say what you said above...you might as well named names.

So, if I'd said I have ZERO TOLERANCE, would that have made you feel better?  Would that have made the situation any better?  The world is not as black and white as you might think, April.

And as someone whom has supported you in the past, both here at Rendo and at Daz, let me give you a little advice.  Instead of clinging to "how sad it is that a titled forum coordinator does not have zero tolerance", why don't you take this opportunity to learn from what I am trying to do here.

FACT: piracy is not going away anytime soon.  FACT: From what I can say, the 3D Content Industry does not have enough unified resources to really fight this problem.  FACT:  There are great vendors who do quality work and do not seemingly hurt as much some other alledge.  Some actively search these sites for their stuff and I've had no problem reporting these things back to vendors as well.  But, there are also vendors who charge a lot for lazy and sloppy work and no one wants to part with their hard earned money over crap.  Bottomline.  FACT:  Saying I have ZERO TOLERANCE is not going to make the situation any better.  A more truer statement from me:  I don't advocate it and I surely do not advocate pirates making money off of people's hard work, which is why this was started in the first place.  FACT:  And I stand by this one for sure, push yourself as a vendor and artist and continue to make quality products and you will experience increased sales.  As crazy as it may sound, I would've never heard of most of the favorite vendors had I not seen some of their stuff somewhere.  That also includes that Vayne Braid hair that you did and sold here and now sell at Renderosity.  I saw that hair on a site just like the one we are talking about and I bought it from here for $10.00 anyway.

Does that sound like someone who advocates piracy to you?  You can look at my account.  I've spent well over $1000 just at Rendo alone.  And you say I advocate piracy, huh?

Until a uniformed effort can be made to at least simmer down piracy in the 3D content industry and eventually squash it, making statements about me not having ZERO TOLERANCE really isn't going to amount to anything because you are focusing on the wrong thing.

Look at it this way, I'm a titled Forum Coordinator and I'm basically given you the best way and means possible to protect yourself and ensure your success as a vendor and that's by sharing my experiences.  I'm doing it openly and honestly because I don't advocate it.  If I did advocate it, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me and more than likely, I wouldn't be a coordinator.

Quote - I equate a person that runs a warez site with a child molester, the worst of the worst and the users are not much better...

As for the claim that the users that d/l and never pay for anything they d/l being small, I seriously doubt that.

Try before you buy,... just another way to justify getting something for free.

And if that was the case, there would be several car dealerships with no cars, no one would be buying specialty foods if they could not sample a taste, and a shoe salesman would never have any shoes after someone tries them on.

Again, I think all of you are missing the point because you are so passionate about this.  And that child molester thing...are you serious?  For real?  Let's see, someone who assaults my child and could scare them psychologically for life versus someone who downloads my product from some warez site for free.  One I could easily recover from and the other I could not.  One I could recoup loses from, the other I could not.  Sorry, I can't see the analogy here accept when it's dealing with lost money or revenue.  Digital content has produced a seemingly incurable disease, but not completely invincible.

Let's use Aery Soul for an example, who have publically stated that piracy was NOT the reason they were shuting down but the global economy being in the crapper the way it is.  Aery Soul had quality stuff and while their stuff was on these sites, it doesn't really seem like they started hurting until people just could not afford the stuff.  Now, they are regulated to just Daz, Rendo, and a few others, but they were doing quite well for a long time...and piracy was in full effect.

Honestly, I don't care if you demonize a titled forum coordinator for not having zero tolerance.  But judge from your comment, AprilYSH, and hipend3d...I think you all are missing a very valuable point.

derrys1969

An excellent post. Well said!

Some people do take things out of all proportion i.e. the child molester comparison. I know piracy is an emotive subject for many. But please try to keep some perspective with your comparisons.

I totally miss the point, yes. I don't work for free, never, nor tolerate people making profit like parasites on me. I sell here because I consider this an association, so I share my benefits.

If a pirate sites wants to be legal and asks me for a share, I will give them. But they get benefits and I don't, of our hard work. They are just parasites, criminals, you name it.

I can even lower my price, in fact I make great % off these days here. But I can't accept 0% in return.

I understand that drakmanover advocates for direct selling and lesser price, and it's honest. And I understand that the forum coordinator says that some people start being pirates and end being buyers. But that is simply not right, if you had talked with people like that you may know it. I did.

I understand that you two have honest opinions and are against piracy, but you don't understand that they don't need devil  advocates or understanding. They are the majority in some countries, and have lots of people supporting them. It is us who need support.

I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from doing whatever they can to protect their work. I won't say it's a losing battle either, but as derrys1969 says, there are certain realities that have to be faced. I reported such a site to Daz some years ago and AFAIK, it was taken down. Since then, the number or graphics download sites and torrents has increased tremendously.  Simply put, 3D has become popular enough to attract piracy. MPAA and RIAA have legions of lawyers and political clout. They've sued a lot of people and won a lot of judgments, but you can still find first run movies and music without paying for it.

They could include some kind of elaborate DRM in Poser/DS and that would work for about a week at most before someone cracked it. In the end, you will probably spend more time and perhaps money trying to quash warez than you would recoup in sales. At best, the numbers are unknown. If you want some emotional satisfaction, upload some dummy files to these sites. At least you'll know that downloaders will be frustrated - until someone posts the real item - though some may be wary of getting burned twice and perhaps you'll have a small net reduction. Oh, and of course, you'll probably be banned for posting fakes.

Jordi

We'll just have to agree to differ on this one I'm afraid. But because piracy is so rife. I honestly believe that the "hitting with a big stick" approach would cause more harm than good. Pirates are here to stay. You may not like it but it's a fact. Close down one site and two more spring up. Even if you managed to close down all the warez and torrents sites people would still share. Heck! there's already sharing rings that use Skype to share files between themselves. No torrents, no e-mails and no File hosters. They share directly from one computer to another. How are you going to stop that? All I'm advocating is realistic pricing to bring more people into the buying loop so that they don't need to resort to illegal file sharing. I believe the vast amount of illegal file users do so because of economics. They have to put a roof over their families heads and food on the table before they can even think about buying 3d content. Especially in the economic climate we're all in today.
Yes, I agree there are some that will use illegally gotten files no matter what the price of the original. But is'nt that the case in every industry where pirates operate? In the UK where I am. The busiest shops on the High Street are the ones that sell everything for £1. Thats got to tell you something. If you could sell one item for $10 or 10 items for $1 which one would you choose? People go there because their on a tight budget. They buy books, DVD's, music cd's etc. all for £1 each. They could easily download what they've bought but they choose to buy it. Why? Because they could afford too. And that's my point precisely.

And with that. I respectfully bow out of the conversation (unless someone decides to slag me off that is, lol).

Quote - I totally miss the point, yes. I don't work for free, never, nor tolerate people making profit like parasites on me. I sell here because I consider this an association, so I share my benefits.

I understand that you two have honest opinions and are against piracy, but you don't understand that they don't need devil  advocates or understanding. They are the majority in some countries, and have lots of people supporting them. It is us who need support.

Okay, let's be honest about something...all sites, whether they are illegal or legal sites, are parasites.  One is more parasitic than the other.  Unless you are getting 100% of profit from your hardwork, you are still being taken, Jordi.

That said, again, you are only looking at it from your side, which is perfectly fine and I understand that piracy is allegedly devestating in other countries.  But I also know that we here in the States, and maybe the UK and Canada, may have more to say about individual liberties and freedom of speech and choice than in most countries as well.

Why I say this?  Even though they try it all the time, we sometimes just don't believe everything we read, see, or hear because there's always two or three sides to a story.  Your country tells you that piracy is seriously hurting digital media sales right.

They say the same thing over here.  But we can police statements like this one through fact checking.  Who's to say the governing bodies of these countries just are using this argument as a way to control how cash flows to them?  Both the RIAA and MPAA have made these statements, yet there has been no serious decline in buying music nor movie watching nor DVD and Blu-Ray sales.

People will say anything and if there are enough passionate people out there, they will believe it.

Jordi, piracy is not going away until a uniformed unilateral fight is taken to it.    Somethings you just have to accept.  FSMCDesign made a comment about people don't understand piracy if it doesn't effect them.  Are you kidding me?  There's been several times I had something that I worked hard for stolen from me and resold.  Are you serious?  But, I'm not so upset and passionate where I want to wage a one person war.  I accepted it, moved on, and better protected myself.

And the best defense is truly a good offense.  Offer better products and services and people will be more than willing to support you.

And don't believe everything you hear, find out for yourself.  And with that, I'm done, until someone wrongfully accuses me of advocating piracy again.

Offer better products and services and people will pirate them more. That's the fact.

For my part, I will hunt pirates as I've done, successfully, always.

Personally I am tired of this conversation. I think no one will convince no one. I just will unsubscribe. My time is little and 3D consumes a lot of time to be done, time that those people steal. If I can help any other companion 3D modeler to crush them, just email me, I will.

Quote - Offer better products and services and people will pirate them more. That's the fact.

For my part, I will hunt pirates as I've done, successfully, always.

Personally I am tired of this conversation. I think no one will convince no one. I just will unsubscribe. My time is little and 3D consumes a lot of time to be done, time that those people steal. If I can help any other companion 3D modeler to crush them, just email me, I will.

And that's about all you really can do and at least on that we can agree.  And people will always pirate, but that should not stop you from giving and being the best at what you do and have to offer.

Quote - I equate a person that runs a warez site with a child molester, the worst of the worst and the users are not much better...

Don't mean to cause any offence, but given the dark secrets coming out in a number of countries about the priesthood I think this was a somewhat poor analogy, given that their users logically are being tarred with the same brush.
I get the point you were trying to make, but just a bit too emotively put.

Quote - I understand that the forum coordinator says that some people start being pirates and end being buyers. But that is simply not right, if you had talked with people like that you may know it. I did.

Sorry I'm not trying to be dense here, but if that's the case then where do the pirates get their stuff from. Surely one has to be a buyer and from the amount of stuff that's said to be on these sites they must spend enormous amounts

You may assume others don't already know about some measures to reduce piracy you mention, but may I suggest you look up what playing "devil's advocate" means and how it differs from being an actual "advocate." 

Secondly, the piece by hiperia3d I quoted and my own point were about how tolerance of piracy helps a lot of new people on the scene think "it's ok" and "everybody's doing it" and that doesn't help us developers at all. And more to the point (my point) people in position to be role models such as community leaders ideally would NOT take this tolerant stance especially in public, just IMO. 

Not trying to change anyones' minds here.  Forget I posted.

I see some talking about 1 item... 1 thing taken from them and given away, what about the folks here that have their entire storefront on this site?? Every single product they made, stolen and offered up for free?

1 person buys a product for 10 bucks, you get 50% and end up with 5 dollars for something that make have taken weeks, even months to make.

that 1 person gives it to a forum full of 100 people.. you lose a hundred bucks.  that sure sound like its all okay to me. NOT>

Quote - I see some talking about 1 item... 1 thing taken from them and given away, what about the folks here that have their entire storefront on this site?? Every single product they made, stolen and offered up for free?

1 person buys a product for 10 bucks, you get 50% and end up with 5 dollars for something that make have taken weeks, even months to make.

that 1 person gives it to a forum full of 100 people.. you lose a hundred bucks.  that sure sound like its all okay to me. NOT>

That's a good point, but not everyones tastes are the same so I think it would be less, also 100 bucks would mean only 10 of the 100 were interested if it's 10 x 10 and 20 if it's the 5 bucks. Not trying to detract, but it's a bit misleading without proper figures in a statement, and assuming everyone of them loves it it would be 500 bucks out of each pocket, not figures to be sniffed at. Hopefully if it was that popular with the pirates it would be equally popular with the buyers.

Forgot I had this link as it's in my bookmarks in Firefox and I only visit my quick links in there usually.
It's a DMCA generator and sender  http://www.3druntime.com/dmca-notice-generator/index.html

Quote - You may assume others don't already know about some measures to reduce piracy you mention, but may I suggest you look up what playing "devil's advocate" means and how it differs from being an actual "advocate." 

Secondly, the piece by hiperia3d I quoted and my own point were about how tolerance of piracy helps a lot of new people on the scene think "it's ok" and "everybody's doing it" and that doesn't help us developers at all. And more to the point (my point) people in position to be role models such as community leaders ideally would NOT take this tolerant stance especially in public, just IMO. 

Not trying to change anyones' minds here.  Forget I posted.

Definition of devil's advocate: In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position.

I'm well aware what a devil's advocate is and according to the definition above, that's exactly what I did.  Now, if I hurt your feeling in the process, well, I can't help that because I meant no harm.

People are going to get out of it what they want, some will see my point, others will look at it as giving them "permission" to go ahead and do what they wanted in the first place.  All I can do is encourage thought on both sides and I stand by my argument.  You stated I should have a ZERO TOLERANCE stance on it.  If I was part of the Internet police, I would stop piracy just like everyone else, even if my tolerance for it is not all the way down to zero.  Why?  Because, in any form it hurts the original creator.  Bottomline.  I guess I had to just spell that out since obviously I offended some people.

As far as the community leader being a role model and they shouldn't have a tolerance?

1.) I'm am a simple forum coordinator, do you even know what that entails?  It sure as heck does not involve any leadership in any capacity except in guiding someone to follow the TOC of gallery posting.

2.) Even if I was a community leader, so to speak, I'm entitled to my own opinion.  Statements like yours are why many crooked politicians get elected who they shouldn't.  People don't like to hear the truth.  They would rather you lie to them, and that perplexs me.

3.)We're going to have to agree to disagree.  I'm not here to get you to look at it from my stand point nor are you here to get me to look at it from yours.  If you are familiar with the measures, I go back one of my previous posts and say that instead of making something negative out of the fact that I played "devil's advocate", use those measures to better protect yourself.

Someone just shared a DMCA form that can be filed electronically very quickly.  I suggest you start there.

Peace.

Everyone has a choice.

You can vote for "freedon of speech" where all sides of an argument have equall validity to be heard. Which in turn leads to informed decision making. Or you can vote for "zero tolerance" which only allows the views of an oppressor to be muted. Where no-one has the right to speak out against decisions that effect them

If I wanted the second choice I would move to Burma, Zimbabwe or one of the other dictatorships dotted across the globe.

Fair and open debate is the only sure way to make progress. Wars are never won by brute force alone. Somewhere down the line there has to be dialogue or there will never be any progress made on anything. History should have taught us all that!

I personally would like to thank derrys1969 for being an excellent  forum Coordinator  His views have been informed and articulate. He has denounced piracy from day one of this topic being posted. But he has been fair handed to all parties on either side of the fence and has kept the debate calm and civil. Which is exactly what a forum like this is designed to do.

Got to agree with drak, that's why I keep coming back to read the posts in here, for such an emotive subject  Derrys has made it  a non flamable area

Sorry about posting in this old thread.  There is an way to fix the problem but Renderosity, Daz3d, and all the other legitimate site are not willing to take that step because it will cut deeply into there profits.  The salutation is to embed a unique number in every item sold that can be associated with a customers account,  that way Renderosity, Daz3d, and all the other legitimate sites will then know exactly who is actually posting stuff illegally, and then sue them, and then ban them.

Sorry about posting in this old thread.  There is an way to fix the problem but Renderosity, Daz3d, and all the other legitimate site are not willing to take that step because it will cut deeply into there profits.  The salutation is to embed a unique number in every item sold that can be associated with a customers account,  that way Renderosity, Daz3d, and all the other legitimate sites will then know exactly who is actually posting stuff illegally, and then sue them, and then ban them.

Sorry about posting in this old thread.  There is an way to fix the problem but Renderosity, Daz3d, and all the other legitimate site are not willing to take that step because it will cut deeply into there profits.  The salutation is to embed a unique number in every item sold that can be associated with a customers account,  that way Renderosity, Daz3d, and all the other legitimate sites will then know exactly who is actually posting stuff illegally, and then sue them, and then ban them.

AJ-DRAGON posted at 9:50 AM Tue, 5 March 2024 - #4482198

Sorry about posting in this old thread.  There is an way to fix the problem but Renderosity, Daz3d, and all the other legitimate site are not willing to take that step because it will cut deeply into there profits.  The salutation is to embed a unique number in every item sold that can be associated with a customers account,  that way Renderosity, Daz3d, and all the other legitimate sites will then know exactly who is actually posting stuff illegally, and then sue them, and then ban them.

Warez sites easily crack big AAA programs to distribute them illegally, by hacking files to remove things like phone-home features and similar, what makes you think they wouldn't easily find those numbers and remove them before publishing the files?

That was what DAZ Connect was originally meant to do, each account has it's own ID and the content downloaded in DS was encrypted to that account, as a result nobody else could use that content without logging into that account.

But the community shot it down in flames (DRM), it's still there, just not used by the majority.