dude thanks for the cargo cult link.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

that would make a fantastic story, michael chricton style.  i would choose him as the writer because of his respect for the cultures he writes about.  (13 warrior anyone?)

check this out this is a really interesting bit about low tech people meeting high tech with greater nuance

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4199

Quote - "If you are a person of faith and the aliens show up and claim that they have not believed in a god or gods for some time (or ever for that matter) would that make you question your faith?"

No.  But I would question their values.

Quote - not that that is to say there is no god.  wherever we look the universe gets bigger.  (and smaller)  it seems to me as ridiculous to say there is no god as to say that one particular group knows what god wants.

Yeah, pretty much.  I try to live by the biblical idea of "recognizing someone by the fruits" of their endeavor.  It doesn't matter what I think, or what group I am part of, just the effects of my actions on the world count.

In other words: "We don't have to be right to be right with each other".

@SnowSultan...

You weren't supposed to answer both questions! :)

 I simply don't know if there is a god or not.

When my time will come, I will discover it. Maybe there is nothing and my consciousness will end.

But maybe no. Maybe there is really something after death and some god who will greet me.

So how should I behave now? Every religion says something different: for religion A, the behaviour X is a great virtue. For religion B, is a terrible sin.

Again, I don't know. I try to live my life as I feel right: doing no harm, believing in peace, and raising my daughters as best as I can.

If and when a god will ask me "have you committed sins?" I'll show him my life like a passport and will tell him "You decide".

LOL moogal, oops.   ;)

"No.  But I would question their values."

See, I find that to be a scary answer. Automatically, if the aliens don't believe in God, they might not share the same values as God-fearing people. That's why more Americans have a negative opinion of atheists than any other cultural group; they don't believe what everyone else believes, so they can't have the same values as everyone else either.

The more people I encounter, the more likely I think everyone else could be wrong.    ;D

SnowS

An atheist has to get their values from somewhere.  If they reject the 10 commandments, what values then do they follow?  Communism prides itself on its people being "atheists".  That's why China killed 50,000,000+ of its own people.  That's why Russia killed 30,000,000+ of its own people.  That's why Germany killed millions of its people.  And Cambodia.  The list goes on.

...but how many have been killed in the name of God?
The crusader? how many people have been killed thu of some belive if one god or another? To say that ppl who belive in god and the 10 commandments dont kill...well that is so wrong, there are a lot of ppl who getting killed as a result of someone belive their belive is the right one.

I really dont think ppl only can get "right" value by the 10 commandments and the belive in god. There is a lot of ppl out there who dont belive in god, dont follow the 10, but still is good ppl, who cares about other and dont hurt anyone.

(About Germany killing a lot of its own ppl, well I allways thought it was befourse H had an issue with Judish ppl - and judish ppl are ppl who belive in judish; so that was in a name of an god)

Quote - ...but how many have been killed in the name of God?
The crusader?

The Crusades happened roughly 1,000 years ago.  Christian cities were invaded and needed defending.  The Christians lost.  Do you have any recent events to tell us about?

I don't see Christians or Jews strapping on bombs and blowing themselves up in crowded malls.  I don't see Christian or Jewish countries killing their own citizens in the millions.

I've seen Christians and Jews sign up for the military though to defend their countries and even to defend other countries from dictators.

ADDED:
"Atheist" Americans have killed 40,000,000+ of their own babies.  So the US does mass-killings also.

""Atheist" Americans have killed 40,000,000+ of their own babies.  So the US does mass-killings also."

Just to make things clear here..are you saying that all ppl who are doing abort are atheist?

They could be anybody.  Including Christians behaving badly.  Which means they aren't exactly Christian.  I'd say the vast majority though are not Christians.  They are the "spiritual but not religious" types.

Getting kicked out of a Christian church does not make one an atheist.  It might make them an anti-christian though.  Or they might remain a very troubled Christian for the rest of their life.

Wasnt there a man in US some time ago that held a lot of ppl inprisoned then killed them all in the name of God?

I'm just saying that the world aint as easy as black and white.

As I said before: "For 2000 years ago Jesus said we all should take care and love each other. We have spent the last 2000 years fighting over how he said it"

Quote - Wasnt there a man in US some time ago that held a lot of ppl inprisoned then killed them all in the name of God?

 
Crazy people kill in the name of all kinds of things.  Maybe you just remember the ones that used the name of God.

I'm sure most US citizens that go nuts and decide to kill a bunch of people are thinking in the back of their mind that God is watching them, because God is in their culture since birth.  They could argue with God in their head during an 8-hour ordeal while the SWAT guys are outside waiting to take him out.  So he's got plenty of time to think (or not think if he's totally nuts) what God will do to him at the end of the day.  Some people don't like the idea of being judged in an afterlife.  Yet they still believe they are going to be judged and they don't exactly like the person that they are.  Which makes them more upset in a hostage situation.  So God's name could very well come up in shouts and in scribbled notes.

:P well that is a little bit my point - just being a beliver in god dont automatic make you unable to do bad things.

Personally I dont belive I need a god or the belive in a god to be a desent human (I'm not perfect) But I try my best to behave nice. Take care of those close to me.

But I refuse to accept that, that is something that only ppl who belive in god does.

Something I really belive in is the rule of;  "what you give is what you get - one time out, 3 times in" So if I'm bad, I get bad back 3 times :P

Argh I really shouldnt be sitting here, I'm suppose to have my lunch now :)

Following the Golden Rule is nice.  Everyone should do it.  But for Christians and Jews, there is a far bigger picture (or scheme of things) than just living by that rule.

Because why would a non-religious person ever follow the Golden Rule if they're just going to die anyway and there's nothing after that because they don't exist anymore?  They certainly won't care anymore whether they followed the rule or not because they're dead.

 Just a note...it would probably be best if this didn't also turn into a "Group X killed more people, so they're more evil" thread.  A belief in a God, or lack thereof, is almost never the sole factor in any of the cases talked about so far, and I would like this to not take a turn toward attacks.

Quote - Following the Golden Rule is nice.  Everyone should do it.  But for Christians and Jews, there is a far bigger picture (or scheme of things) than just living by that rule.

Because why would a non-religious person ever follow the Golden Rule if they're just going to die anyway and there's nothing after that because they don't exist anymore?  They certainly won't care anymore whether they followed the rule or not because they're dead.

Well who have said that ppl who aint Christians and jews cant see the bigger picture? I belive in a life after death, maybe in my next life I be a tree or an insect  -and if I'm very lucky I dont have to live anymore life; then i be a part of the big mass of power.
Ok I admit I'm religous so I guess I dont fit into the non-religous group; but i'm not christian nor jews. I'm one of those who belive in everything, in all gods and godess, in magic, in unicorns, dragons, elements...the list gets long. Its a belive that feels right to me.

Quote -
Because why would a non-religious person ever follow the Golden Rule if they're just going to die anyway and there's nothing after that because they don't exist anymore?  

Two answers.

First, I follow the "Golden Rule"  (nice term, btw) because I don't know what there is after life!!! Maybe there is REALLY a judgement by some god, so it's best if I am a nice boy now, right?

But there is another answer. I try to be the best person I can be, and doing all the good I can, because the world will not end with me, and I will leave it to my daughters, my friends and whoever will remain after my death. It's enough for me.

Giorgio

I see the "Where do atheists get their morals from?" question has appeared. Anyone who's ever gotten into internet arguments (on the appropriate forums) will feel their shoulders slump a little when this is raised yet again. So, here goes...

I get my morals from wanting to live in a society that works. A society where everyone does whatever they want? That doesn't work. It would quickly self-destruct.
A society with reciprocal acts (the "Golden Rule") works.
Just think it through: I don't want people to murder me and/or steal my stuff. Therefore, I expect they wouldn't like me to murder them and/or steal their stuff. Therefore, we mutually agree (tacitly or by writing explicit laws) not to murder each other and not to steal each others' stuff. This is a sound and sufficient basis for creating a moral system.
What I don't require is someone watching over my shoulder with a big stick and threatening to hit me with it for any bad things I've done when I've completed my alloted time alive. Living under that system means I act good only out of a selfish fear of pain/hurt, and not because I know acting morally is an essentially good thing to do for improving the society I live in.

Quote - An atheist has to get their values from somewhere.  If they reject the 10 commandments, what values then do they follow?  Communism prides itself on its people being "atheists".  That's why China killed 50,000,000+ of its own people.  That's why Russia killed 30,000,000+ of its own people.  That's why Germany killed millions of its people.  And Cambodia.  The list goes on.

Cruelty concerns mankind in common.It is not a speciall trademark of a religion or not religion. Hitler was raised as catholic by the way and has never been atheist.He started later on to support Himmler's mystic,esoteric views.About the ten commandments I have allways wondered how to deal with  them.To follow them word by word or to interpret them .Word by word would mean I have act against the commandment not to kill so many times.What if Ikill flys ,may I kill bacterias ? To interpret means, it all remains unclear.I could easily declair an enemy as not truely alive ,because he might not of my religion, without having feeling guilty to act against that commandment not to kill . Just for fun I woukd like to bring on another stereotype : catholics are very good in gardening

Just one question :does anyone believe I am from a lower moral ,because I don't believe in god and look at the bible as an historical document among many others?

i might get razzed for this
but oddly enough, a really sound answer for atheist values popped up in the tv series, Angel.

a person he was working with, a cop, lost her father, an ex cop, to a vampire attack.  he was crooked, but she did not realize that.  she had just been coming around to seeing the supernatural, and developed an intense hatred of vampires because of the death.

then she found out angel was a vampire, and went after him unsuccessfully.  she became suicidal and took a lot of pills to kill herself.  angel found out and busted into her apartment, force fed her coffee and kept her stimulated in the shower.

afterwords, they had that discussion.  his take on a universe that might not have god was like this:

"if there is no afterlife, if this right here is all there is, what do you choose to do?  do you choose to live your life to help others or do you live in selfishness?  if this is all there is, then the choice you make is actually far more important.  living life unselfishly when that is all that is left is an even more important gift."

that's paraphrased.  i was was really surprised at that popping up in that show.

"This world should be heaven for everyone" ( Roger Taylor , Queen)

This is a reply to 2 posts above..

Nope. I'd say if anyrthing you have more likely to have higher moral standards. Thats because you can apply intellgence to your moral and ethical choices rather slavishly following mythical tracts.

Though I'd have to slighlty disagree about books like the bible and others as historical documents. Yes they are old, but they are hardly what you call historical if we are talking about being accurate documents. 

Firstly theres usually no physical evidence to support what these books claim and secondly they get changed over history to suit the desires of the people in charge at that time.  

dorkmcgork - well said.

Quote -
(About Germany killing a lot of its own ppl, well I allways thought it was befourse H had an issue with Judish ppl - and judish ppl are ppl who belive in judish; so that was in a name of an god)

Don't fall into that trap.  Jewish people are an ethnicity with a religion.  Whatever Hitler thought of their beliefs, it was the people themselves he did not like.  (There were a few other groups he didn't like much either.)

The spread of Christianity marked a bit of a turning point as it is one of the first major religions that was not exclusive to people of one tribe or nation-state, instead inviting people of all races and nations to accept common tenets of faith. 

That the Jewish people would always be Jewish regardless of national identity has caused many people throughout history to questions their patriotism and loyalty, as if their Jewish identity made it impossible for them to truly be citizens of any country (except Israel).  Similarly, many Americans expressed concern about John F. Kennedy running for president because they worried that, as a Roman Catholic, his loyalty would be to the Pope and Rome, rather than upholding the constitution of the United States. 

Quote - Just one question :does anyone believe I am from a lower moral ,because I don't believe in god and look at the bible as an historical document among many others?

I would have no way of knowing your morals, so I would have to look at your actions.  If I claimed to be a muslim or a jew, you would at least have a way of determining what my moral code is supposed to be.  It would then be up to you to determine if my actions seemed consistent with my beliefs. 

It has always been a problem that person "A" may claim a "better" set of moral beliefs than person "B" and still be the worse person of the two.  Especially in cases of people abandoning their "truer" or "higher" code specifically when dealing with people of a perceived lesser tradition.  (This is m,ay be accompanied by the labeling of said group as "savage", "barbarian", or "beast-like")

mao, stalin, hitler, pol pot et al. may have killed their victims for political reasons, and
their victims may have been selected for their religious beliefs (jewish, confucian, buddhist
et al.).  whilst not a jew myself, as I understand it the jews killed by hitler and stalin were
not semitic but were slavs, germanic, french, polish in ethnicity - IOW ethnic europeans
rather than emigrants from palestine.

p.s. in china confucianism is now being revived, but they still suppress tibetan and muslim
religious minorities.

Quote - Just one question :does anyone believe I am from a lower moral ,because I don't believe in god and look at the bible as an historical document among many others?

Not me.  I believe in Moral Absolutism.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't need a supernatural being, or the accompanying religious leaders to dictate, cajole, or threaten in order to be as good a person as I can. Laziness does most of it. I don't have the energy for confrontation, lying, stealing, or violence, or the physical or emotional distress they cause. I like things to go smoothly (they don't, but it would be nice), and have plenty of time to explore all the cool stuff in the world. 

It's sort of like avoiding bears. Behaving badly is like deliberately looking for a bear, and that rarely ends well.  

Quote -
It's sort of like avoiding bears. Behaving badly is like deliberately looking for a bear, and that rarely ends well.  

Post of the year!

Quote - What I don't require is someone watching over my shoulder with a big stick and threatening to hit me with it for any bad things I've done when I've completed my alloted time alive. Living under that system means I act good only out of a selfish fear of pain/hurt, and not because I know acting morally is an essentially good thing to do for improving the society I live in.

So you agree with at least the philosophy of the Bible then?  Or you follow the Golden Rule because you choose to obey your country's justice/police system?

lol yeah laziness makes for great moral character!

ShawnDriscoll,

Quote - Because why would a non-religious person ever follow the Golden Rule if they're just going to die anyway and there's nothing after that because they don't exist anymore?

So is that the only reason Christians ever act morally, out of fear of punishment, or avarice for reward in some after life? They would indeed be a shallow and deplorable lot if that were the case. I am not a Christian, but neither can I stand by and see such a foul accusation levelled against them.

Look into your soul, and ask yourself honestly. Do you not think you owe the Christians an apology?

The Golden Rule is in your interest if you believe that doing unto others as you would have them do unto you makes it more likely that others will treat you likewise. Such a belief needn't be religious.

"Or you follow the Golden Rule because you choose to obey your country's justice/police system?"

Partly, as well as wanting to do good so that I can be a productive person and aid my fellow citizens. I do not need an ancient text to tell me how to behave and I need religious figures who claim to be closer to God and thus more of a moral authority than myself even less.

SnowS

Quote - So is that the only reason Christians ever act morally, out of fear of punishment, or avarice for reward in some after life? They would indeed be a shallow and deplorable lot if that were the case. I am not a Christian, but neither can I stand by and see such a foul accusation levelled against them.

The only reason Christians ever act morally?  That is not the only reason they do, of course, if they choose to act morally.  Just as everybody else (including Christians) don't all act morally just because there is a cop around.  There's good Christians and bad ones.  Ask Hitler when the Pope kicked him out and he started killing Catholics (not for that reason though).

Would you call atheists that only ever acted morally out of fear of being arrested/imprisoned a shallow and deplorable lot?

Quote - "Or you follow the Golden Rule because you choose to obey your country's justice/police system?"

I do not need an ancient text to tell me how to behave and I need religious figures who claim to be closer to God and thus more of a moral authority than myself even less.

Where do you think your justice and police got their original law system from?

I have a feeling humanity would have figured out how to get along fairly well without any help from religion, just as we'd get along fine (perhaps even better) without it today.

Very early man learned from experience that if you steal from someone else or try to take their wives, they'll club you and take their stuff/women back. Kill someone, and friends of the deceased will likely kill you for doing so.  We certainly must have had basic guidelines of social behavior before any religion came along.

The basic laws under which most societies live are more basic than something dictated by an organized religion. More like religions organized and 'set in stone' these behaviors. If one looks at a more diverse sample of religion than just the predominant ones, certain things are prohibited in almost all of them. 

As far as improving the society you live in, it's like tilting at windmills until humans decide to start thinking with their brains instead or reacting emotionally. Just imagine what could be accomplished if all the energy expended on crime and violence were applied to creating instead of destroying. And that applies to everyone from the local hoodlum to nations. 

Remembering it's John Lennon's birthday, it's a day for reflection about how individuals can grow and what this planet could be. 

Quote - The Golden Rule is in your interest if you believe that doing unto others as you would have them do unto you makes it more likely that others will treat you likewise. Such a belief needn't be religious.

And is the basis of Moral Absolutism.  I know several very devout Christians who accept the idea of a basic moral compass existing without the need for a deity.

Even amoebae exhibit co-operative behaviour under certain conditions.  The simple truth is, there's more benefit from being a good citizen than being an amoral scumbag.  Usually, anyhow.  :)

Quote - Would you call atheists that only ever acted morally out of fear of being arrested/imprisoned a shallow and deplorable lot?

Yes of course I would!

Why do you ask? Is that not self evident?

I saw photos of cliff painting in the Sahara desert showing man dressed in a spacesuit. This is 1000s of year old. What do you make of that?

Quote - I saw photos of cliff painting in the Sahara desert showing man dressed in a spacesuit. This is 1000s of year old. What do you make of that?

Not much.   von Daniken made a bit of money with his books, back in the 70's IIRC but his "findings" were laughed at by most people.

Well, they are there and old. Pretty strange.

They are old pictures of something, sure.  No proof they are space suited people, though.  Could be ceremonial dress for all we know, or some weird abstract concept, or even a work of fiction told in pictures.

Just because we portray angels with wings and flaming swords doesn't mean to say they exist, or if they do exist, have either wings or swords.

Same rules apply. 

Interesting, though. What IF they were spacesuits? That would lend a whole new dimension to things.

To answer the original question, i.e.,

Quote -
If aliens exist and they don't accept Jesus Christ as their savior, will they go to hell?

No, because there is no hell. No heaven either.
While the man known popularly as Jesus Christ may have existed, and while he was likely an exceptional figure, he was nothing more than a teacher and a "missionary" of sorts. An exceptionally intelligent and brave teacher no doubt, but very human and there was nothing godlike or metaphysical about him.

No salvation, no Creator, no messiah... just space, matter, energy, chemistry and the laws of physics that all eventually led to an intelligence so consumed with its own self-importance that it invented gods, heaven and salvation to ease its troubled mind and make its existence more bearable...

not locked yet? admin should lock a religeous themed thread immediately.
even as new to the internet as i am, i have seen far too many threads with this topic descend to flaming.

in my humble opinion the mods/admin are being irresponsible in allowing it to continue.
my tuppence worth, take it or leave it  :)

Quote - not locked yet? admin should lock a religeous themed thread immediately.
even as new to the internet as i am, i have seen far too many threads with this topic descend to flaming.

in my humble opinion the mods/admin are being irresponsible in allowing it to continue.
my tuppence worth, take it or leave it  :)

Well way back on page 1 the forum moderator wrote:

**"There is nothing in the TOS that states that posts of this nature, OT though they may be, are a violation.  We keep an eye on them, nothing more.  We only close them when they turn into fights.  (And, yes, there's a HUGE difference between a debate and a fight.)  If you can't keep yourself from fighting, I'd ask that you refrain from posting in any thread where the topic is not to your liking."
**

So it's not like she's not aware of it. There's nothing irresponsible about assuming people here can act like rational adults instead of just stamping it out.
If anything it's even more irresponsible to just pull the plug for no good reason.