**
**A  federal law banning ordinary incandescent light bulbs has already had a negative effect on the American economy — GE has closed its last major bulb producing factory in the United States, creating job opportunities in China.

Legislation enacted in 2007 orders the phase-out of incandescent light bulbs beginning with the 100-watt bulb in 2012 and ending with the 40-watt light in 2014. These bulbs cannot meet efficiency requirements dictated by law.

Compact fluorescent lights (CFLs) are the least expensive alternative. But the manufacture of CFLs is “labor intensive and too expensive to be done at U.S. wage rates,” according to a report from The Heartland Institute, which estimates that domestically produced CFLs would be 50 percent more expensive than bulbs manufactured in China.

So instead of retrofitting its plant in Winchester, Va., to produce CFLs, GE closed the plant in September and laid off 200 workers.

CFLs are already being manufactured in China, and increasing American demand will no doubt create new jobs there.

As the Insider Report disclosed earlier, while CFLs use about 75 percent less energy than incandescent bulbs and last far longer, they cost significantly more, take longer to turn on, can flicker, and contain small amounts of highly toxic mercury, which creates problems for users when they break or need to be disposed of after they burn out.

“Environmental activists and their allies in Washington were either too ignorant of basic economics to see these job losses coming, or they were simply too callous to really care,” said Heartland Institute science director Jay Lehr.

“Either way, compact fluorescent light bulbs in the real world fail to live up to environmental promises, unnecessarily subject American households to toxic mercury, produce poor-quality light, and are sending American workers to the unemployment line.”

And Sam Kazman, general counsel for the Competitive Enterprise Institute, said: “If the new energy-saving technologies being pushed by government are really that good, then we don’t need government to mandate them. And if they are being mandated, that’s a sure sign that they’re not very good.”

Three Republican members of Congress — Joe Barton, Marsha Blackburn and Michael Burgess — have introduced a bill that would repeal the ban on the incandescent bulb.

The three said in an article on The Daily Caller: “The unanticipated consequence of the ’07 act — layoffs in the middle of a desperate recession — is what sometimes happens when politicians think they know better than consumers and workers.”

Well Geep what do you expect, China has contributed campaigne funds to all those idiots since Charley Tree figured out how to get around the campaigne laws back in 1992 when the Chinese funded Bill Clinton's campaigne. Which is why China got such good deals back in the 90s. They just gave them a ship yard in California so they wouldn't have to bother with customs and such.

the LED lights are much better though and use less energy than the CFLs. Don't know what photographers are going to do when they can't get incandescent lights.

Attached Link: http://idle.slashdot.org/story/10/09/27/1351242/Selling-Incandescent-Light-Bulbs-As-Heating-Devices

Anyone want to be a billionaire?

Just figure out how to manufacture low cost LED lamps.

The use very little energy.
They run cool.
They do not contain any poison.
They do not have any disposal problems.
They last a long, long, long time.

oh please do some research!

"they cost significantly more, take longer to turn on, can flicker, and contain small amounts of highly toxic mercury, which creates problems for users when they break or need to be disposed of after they burn out."

older ones took time to warm up. the latest generation power up a lot faster now. almost as fast as incandescents. flickering, again look to the early generation bulbs. the mercury? overstated. the there is more mercury in a thermometer. far more.

apart from being a user of the bulbs, I've worked making the ballast circuits that power the new CFL's and I know most of the "claims" are unfounded and based on hearsay / old information.

Problem is GE has already drank the koolaide and are on board with the ban. They will receive billions from our government for those smart grids, where they can control our thermostats for us as we are just too stupid to do it ourselves. That was the trade off light bulbs for smart grids.

I hate the compact bulbs. I had one in my bedside reading lamp, replaced a 60 w bulb with a 40 w and I can barely see when its on , certainly not well enough to read, the light is also very yellow.  I am buying incandescent bulbs when I can get them on sale and stockpiling them.  The little bulbs that I can actually read by are almost $6 in the USA and dont seem to last as long as claimed. 

China is one day going to have to send people over and start taking stuff to get what the USA owes them.

Guess I'll be stocking up on my light bulbs. I use GE Soft White

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/General-Electric-41028-60-Watt-Standard-Light-Bulb/105758/Cat/1037

I've tried others, but I didn't find that they lasted any longer than the ones I've been buying like in the above link. So why should I pay more for something that burns out in the same amount of time?!

@ **Kaibach

Um, when is the last time you had a thermometer "burn out?" :lol:
**

This is a hot-button issue for me. I am very aware of the conflicting reports and counter claims. However, questionable factors brought up mean nothing to me. Argue the points however you like - I have my own conclusion.

My wife switched my office/playroom from 6 ordinary bulbs to 6 CFLs. They SUCK. I can't see - they take half an hour to get up to the rated luminance and I still can't see. They SUCK.

They produce ugly green light. They SUCK.

New generation? They SUCK.

Hey BB, please (gently) tell your wifey that, "If it ain't broke, don't 'fix' it." :biggrin:

Quote - the mercury? overstated. the there is more mercury in a thermometer. far more.

The mercury in a CFL bulb is gaseous, which makes it far more pervasive than a broken thermometer.  Your kid is not likely to lick up spilled liquid mercury from a broken thermometer, but he will continue to breathe after breaking a CFL.

And the other "old claims" remain valid,  and the jobs have left for communist China.

  In any case, If the CFL was a great thing, then it could take market share in free competition, rather than being given a forced monopoly by the Imperial Stormtroopers.

For me, the CFL's I installed didn't last much longer than the incandescent ones, perhaps three or four months and I have a whole bag of CFL's that I don't know what to do with.  Jan

Quote - For me, the CFL's I installed didn't last much longer than the incandescent ones, perhaps three or four months and I have a whole bag of CFL's that I don't know what to do with.  Jan

CFL Recycling and disposal depots

    * Any Home Depot store across North America (1,973 locations).
    * IKEA stores across North America.

In Canada - any RONA Store.

Thanks MG, Jan

A concerned citizen wants to know ...

But ...  where, pray tell, does one "dispose" of an old tired burned out incandesint light bulb? :lol:

Hey Jan ................ I sold mine at a yard sale, yes? :blink:

Disposal depots for light bulbs ???

One might think they were "radioactive" (or something).

Yeah, already changed my life, too. Because they're made in China, I don't trust them anymore than I do toys or pet food made over there. So, I don't leave any lights on for the pets when I go to work, and have to walk in the dark to the car. I have not noticed my electric bill going down one red cent, despite having CFL's and turning them off when leaving a room. And I can't use them in 2 installed fixtures and 2 lamps, because the shade/globe is shaped to clamp onto an incandescent.  All minor points that build up to a big irritant. 

And how many people out there do you think will not just pitch the used bulbs in the trash bin? 

On the other hand, work just replaced half the lights with LED's. Wow! Pretty, shiny! They're installed with a motion sensor, too, so it's like walking down a fairy path. Those lights make you smile. ;)

Quote - A concerned citizen wants to know ...

But ...  where, pray tell, does one "dispose" of an old tired burned out incandesint light bulb? :lol:

Hey Jan ................ I sold mine at a yard sale, yes? :blink:

---

Disposal depots for light bulbs ???

One might think they were "radioactive" (or something).

Hey Doc. They passed a similar law here in Toronto a few years back. The phase out of the incandescent bulbs is supposed to be complete by the end of this year. I live in a highrise and the landlord came in just over a year ago and changed all the ceiling fixtures over to support a ring shaped compact flourescent only. After a few hours the wife started getting headaches and I hate the colour of the light. They have never been in use since. The apartment is lit by LEDs and incandescent lamps only. The damn LEDs keep burning out and cost me a fortune. Needless to say we have cornered the market on "old fashioned" bulbs. As for the compact floursecnts they have to be disposed of here as TOXIC WASTE and require they be dropped off at the registered sites supplied by the city.

Quote -
... The damn LEDs keep burning out and cost me a fortune.

LEDS ......... ??????????????????????????

Where did you get the LEDs, if I may ask? (jc)

In france, incandescents bulbs are already banned since a few mounth, but can still be found in some market, the time to reduce the stock.

Home Depot has a LED bulb that is equivalent to a 25 watt incandescent, that has the standard base! 11USD, but it lasts 100,000 hours, and isn't much more expensive than the 5-year incandescent I used to buy. And it uses only 3 watts of power, and doesn't get hot. Cool.  

Quote - This is a hot-button issue for me. I am very aware of the conflicting reports and counter claims. However, questionable factors brought up mean nothing to me. Argue the points however you like - I have my own conclusion.

My wife switched my office/playroom from 6 ordinary bulbs to 6 CFLs. They SUCK. I can't see - they take half an hour to get up to the rated luminance and I still can't see. They SUCK.

They produce ugly green light. They SUCK.

New generation? They SUCK.

As you age your need for good light increases, I'm 51 and am damn near blind with a 100 watt light bulb. cfl lighting is not much better than no lighting. I replaced one of my down lights in my kitchen with a cfl and it takes a good 15 min to warm up enough to see by and never does put out as much light as the incandecent lights.

The Libs may have made a big blunder by making them manditory by 2012, that is an election year. Get folks pissed off enough in an election year and that will be very bad for them.

I cannot remember where I heard/read about what you must do if you accidentally break a CFL bulb in a room. You must:

Open all the windows.
Leave the room for a period of time (I don't remember how long).
Then you must decontaminate every surface (that's everything!).

I really really want to be rid of the CFLs I have, but there is nothing to replace them with  : /

P.S.  Hey Doc, I've been lurking on the Build a Complete House thread.  THANK YOU!
Man! There are a lot of pages! It must have taken you forever to do them all!

the nearest HD to me is over 100 miles away, I don't think I'll drive that far to throw away a broken cfl.

scanmead: Who the hell can see by a 25 watt bulb? you must be 20 years old. LOL

Ok, they also have 40 watt equivalents, and developing higher ones. The reviews are saying they seem closer to 60 watt, probably because of the white-ness of the light. The only downside seems to be the heavy directionality of the light, making them not so good for reading lamps, but I'm looking a LED lamps to see what they have to correct that. (Bulb upside down.)  

Quote - > Quote -

... The damn LEDs keep burning out and cost me a fortune.

LEDS ......... ??????????????????????????

Where did you get the LEDs, if I may ask? (jc)

Ikea

Hey Elf ................. don't lurk ........... POST!! ... Thanks. ... ;=]

If they really want to get folks to become more energy efficient here is what they should do to accomplish it.

set up a program so that a person can take out a loan to purchase either solar or wind equipment at a reasonable rate. Give a 100% tax credit for the principle and interest minus the last years electric utility bill. This would bring the cost for the purchaser inline with their current electric bill.

The only reason I haven't done it already is the cost. I want to be totally self reliant by the time I retire. I grow most of my veggys already, except my beanie weenies. LOL

YEAH ! ... Beanie weenies are GrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrEAT !!!

If I figure out how to grow those I'm set for life. will have all the natural gas I need. LOL

You know, I was not very aware of the toxicity issue. Mercury vapor!?! Are you kidding me?

And now I raised the question to my wife, and find that despite her being an educated woman, she THROWS THEM IN THE TRASH.

OMG!

This is the biggest cluster f---ing big-government blunder I've seen in years. I know human nature even though I try not to. Millions of people will be throwing these things in the trash. Our town dump will become a toxic waste super-fund site in just a few years. This is outrageous. Seriously.

Quote - If they really want to get folks to become more energy efficient here is what they should do to accomplish it.

set up a program so that a person can take out a loan to purchase either solar or wind equipment at a reasonable rate. Give a 100% tax credit for the principle and interest minus the last years electric utility bill. This would bring the cost for the purchaser inline with their current electric bill.

The only reason I haven't done it already is the cost. I want to be totally self reliant by the time I retire. I grow most of my veggys already, except my beanie weenies. LOL

The govt here in my province will actually pay you 80 cents a kh to use solar but only if you kick it back to the grid. There is also a tax break on the purchase/installation and the solar providers will set up the loans. The 80 cent payback is guarenteed for 15 years and the solar panels and installation for 20. Problem is that you can only get this deal if you send the green energy back into the grid. There are no tax incentives of any type if you just want to make your green energy your own use. Dumb. There are 3 Ikea stores near here that just converted their roofs under this "F.I.T" plan and estimate that they will make over $183,000 this year alone after the cost of installation. That's $183,000 of my tax money going to support a company that doesn't need it IMHO.
 As for self reliance read the handle. I'm retired and live on 14k a year. Barely enough to pay the rent. My living room is full of veggies all year round and my cupboards contain no boxes, bags, or cans. Just one hell of a lot of mason jars. I have a 40ft sq of allotment garden in a nearby city park that I pay $25 per year to rent and have been doing so for years. I own no car and in fact no longer even have a driver's licence. It lapsed a few years back and I didn't have the $63 to re-new it. My 21 sq ft balcony is tarped in with plastic all winter to use as a cold frame. I could go on and on but you get the picture

BB:

All those fluorecent tube lights are full of mercury as well, how many of those do you think are in the land fills? They have been in use since the 30s or before.

Now with autism and other birth defects associated with mercury is there any wonder they have mushroomed in the past 20 years?

I've been using the new type bulbs for a few years and yes, the old ones did take a long time to get up to full brightness and had a weird colour.  New ones, not so slow to brighten - a few seconds - and have a pleasant, seemingly neutral colour.   

Quote - BB:

All those fluorecent tube lights are full of mercury as well, how many of those do you think are in the land fills? They have been in use since the 30s or before.

Now with autism and other birth defects associated with mercury is there any wonder they have mushroomed in the past 20 years?

My natural (i.e. off the top of my head) expectation would be that corporations act more responsibly than housewives, and would dispose of fluorescent tubes with considerably more care. Not the least reason being that in any group of people, you will find someone who is knowledgeable and cares and will promote or even force the issue of proper disposal. Nothing like that is present in your typical American household.

**parkdalegardener:

**I need to converse with you in more depth. I live on 30 acres, 2.5 acres were veggy garden this year. I am a barber full time now and one of my clients gave me a garden shed, 6x10, crammed full of mason jars just to get them out of his way this summer. LOL

I had 135 tomato plants this summer, from which I canned 20 qts of spagetti sauce, over 100 pts of salsa and ate fresh tomatoes all summer. Beans didn't survive the dry spell we had in june. I have 6 rows of taters, 150 ft long rows, to dig in the next couple of weeks. Freezer is still full of last years corn so I didnt grow any this year. Squash, okra and peppers were coming out of my ears as usual.

I've been collecting used storm windows over the past year or so to build a free standing greenhouse/ garden shed. I find some in dumpsters from time to time and I don't mind paying $20 or so if I have too.

Some of your ideas I'd like to see, I think we are of a like mind. Wife about left me last year on account of my garden, but has come around and is enjoying it now. LOL I had to convince her that the times are not looking so good, there is legislation out now to limit food production. Half the damned world is starving to death and the Liberals here want to limit food production. Unbelievable!!!

Quote - > Quote - BB:

All those fluorecent tube lights are full of mercury as well, how many of those do you think are in the land fills? They have been in use since the 30s or before.

Now with autism and other birth defects associated with mercury is there any wonder they have mushroomed in the past 20 years?

My natural (i.e. off the top of my head) expectation would be that corporations act more responsibly than housewives, and would dispose of fluorescent tubes with considerably more care. Not the least reason being that in any group of people, you will find someone who is knowledgeable and cares and will promote or even force the issue of proper disposal. Nothing like that is present in your typical American household.

Throw a tube out with your trash in this city and the garbagemen will leave it at the side of the curb where it becomes a target for misguided youth who throw rocks at them just to hear the "pop" . No bull. I've seen it happen.

BB:

How long has Toxic waste managment been around? My family barber shop uses those tubes and my mother, manager, just tosses them in the dumpster. There is no toxic pick up or anythig else around here.

Most offices and retail stores have lighting companies that come in, change out all the bulbs, and remove the used ones. At home, I have trouble getting the can down to the road, much less run all over town to get rid of it. I have half-used paint cans in my shop that have been there for years, because I can never get organized enough to pack them up and drive across town to properly dispose of them.

Candles, anyone? 

@ kyhighlander59
 Can do search Google for my handle and you will be able to find a free web site service that has a lot of info I've posted. It is a group of many such free pages so to access everything you need to go through the main site index. Sadly I haven't updated it as much as I would like but with winter just around the bend I'll be adding a lot more. There isn't a lot of gardening in this climate come winter. Gives me more time to work on the site and of course Poser

in KY we can grow cabbage in winter is about all. It will freeze out in January usually though. Kale will survive somewhat. Turnips and turnip greens until about Dec.

Quote - in KY we can grow cabbage in winter is about all. It will freeze out in January usually though. Kale will survive somewhat. Turnips and turnip greens until about Dec.

If you can grow cabbage and kale try Swiss Chard. High yield and very hardy. May freeze up in winter but will still be good and will regrow after the snow melts in spring. Seeds produced are only viable on a plant at least 2 years old. Same as kale.

I grew Swiss Chard for the first time this year. had never even eaten it before. we fried it with red pepper and garlic. Really liked it. Normally I only eat greens raw other than turnip greens, they are not too strong. Kale I eat in salads, same with spinach. Or as a condoment on burgers.

We let our pasture grow up when we bought the farm 30 years ago, I've been trying to get my father to have the timber cut and replant the pasture. We could raise our own beef and a couple to sell in the fall without much trouble. My dad grew up on a farm and has never been fond of having his livestock killed and so he said he would rather just let the trees grow. LOL Another 7 acres about to go up for sale across the road that would make a good pasture, so I may buy that to raise a few cattle on.

To get back on topic there is one place I use florescent tubes. I use full spectrum tubes to keep my veggies happy during the long winter months. If they made CFLs that were full spectrum I would probably use them in other household fixtures. I am not very happy with the mercury issue but would have no problem dropping them off at a disposal site where they were re-cycled in a safe way. My tubes are 5 or so years old and I haven't blown one yet though I am sure that the time will soon come.  I suspect that the cost of a full spectrum CFL would be too high for the average consumer. The tubes command a rather hefty price in comparison to a regular "bluish" tube.

Oooh - now you got me researching full spectrum - there is HOPE!

Look here - I wonder if they really look full spectrum. They're not very expensive.

http://e3living.com/shop/lighting/cfl/color-temp/daylight/products?gclid=CJ6X-_WDyaQCFWJo5QodKCEFjA

Edit: Full spectrum seems to be limited to 24 watt in those cheaper variants.

Bah - I'm thinking of hoarding.

Quote - Edit: Full spectrum seems to be limited to 24 watt in those cheaper variants.

Bah - I'm thinking of hoarding.

Thanks for the link BB. This is the first I've seen of these. 24 watt is way too dim to be of use to most folks though. That is what I meant by these types of lights being a premium and now you know why I have a linen closet full of incandescent bulbs.

I'm kinda getting used to working with the lights off, watching tv in the dark is very nice.

Government nonsense aside, I find it difficult to believe that in the richest nation in the world, one of the icon companies (Edison) has decided to terminate manufacturing of its products because retrofitting to a newer technology is "too expensive". Sheesh, the Chinese have managed to do this years ago: didn't Edison see the hand-writing on the wall?
I see the real issue here is supply and demand. The Chinese somehow anticipated the demand and ramped up their ability to supply.
A bit like what happened to film camera manufacturers who obstinately stuck to making only film-based cameras. Sure, there's still a need for that, I suppose, but not on a consumer level. It's an understood in this day and age that technology will shift, and survival depends on your ability to shift with it.
Am I the only one seeing this?
Just my two pence... :biggrin:

 We use the color corrected (full spectrum) fluorescents at work.  Much better than the regular ones. Especially nice for viewing hard copies of artwork or photos.