@lesbentley: Thanks for the compliment, and thanks for the heads up about the genital area and how it react to the hip2 JCM.

**@Kerya : **thanks for the link.

@shante : Yes, I plan on releasing morphs -- I plan on making many partial morphs. I'll do some head morphs too. I can release the full body morph if people want, but I would prefer to release it as partial morphs so there is a lot more versatility. (Yes, I'm setting myself up for a lot of work :/  )

@BluEcho : Thank you!

I appreciate that setting up the joint parameters in the hip area requires a great degree of skill however hip > waist > abdomen  has the same topology as  Hip2 > hip > abdomen.

If I were to do a search and replace on the CR2 waist:hip, hip:Hip2 the bending would remain unchanged but it would be compatible.

So again I ask, why was it done?

Quote - So again I ask, why was it done?

When Phantom3D did the rigging, he was experimenting with different setups which could improve the handling of the Thigh bends, which present some of the worst joint problems in most figures.  Earlier rigs had four or five parts in the area, but this was eventually reduced to just the Hip and Hip2 actors.  As a child of the Hip and parent of the Thighs, posing for Hip2 can be adjusted to improve bending in that area, particularly with IK on for the legs.  I think the reasoning is also that the spine can still bend a bit beneath the area which is set up as the Hip actor.

Or such is my understanding.  It's actually quite useful, the Hip2, IMO.

Does the second hip create problems for Wardrobe Wizard's process? 

Quote - A good spandex morph is sorely needed. One complication is that the ThighKick JCM in hip2 tends to put detail back into the genital area.

The improvements to the ThighKick JCMs do improve the bending a great deal, but they also exacerbate the, ah, "cameltoe" problems.  I have a spandex morph which smooths the genital tolerably well, but the JCM definitely undoes the smoothing to some extent.  I suspect a special spandex JCM is needed, to make a spandex morph for the genital really work.  :unsure:

@ODF,

Sorry, I don't know what else to tell you.  They are there.  At least in the ZIP I downloaded from 1.0.  I deleted all the other versions from my runtime.  I opened the original obj from the geometries folder using Modo 401. 

I am now attaching another screenshot, this time from UVMapper Pro 3.5c with the same OBJ manually drag/dropped onto it from my poser runtime.  It shows flipped polys as well.

I could well be wrong but I don't know what else I could have done.  I opened the original OBJ (not poser export).  I opened it in multiple programs and those programs seems to say the same thing.

I also loaed the lo res mesh into Modo and it exhibits the same polygons flipped.

I recorded a video, maybe it will help...

Flash Video

If there is anything else I can do to help with this, just ask and I will try.

As I understand it, the good thing of having hip as the root of the hieratchy, and abdomen and hip2 as it's children, is that hip is affected by it's 2 children, all right, but normally only to angles as permitted by the spine, which are not so large. Hip2 can then deal with the deformation imposed by the thighs. There is no difficult seaming at the crotch and butt-crack.

In my porting efforts of V3 dresses to Antonia the difference was not so relevant because the upper end of V3's hip more or less was at the same position as Antonia's hip. The skirt has it's own rigging anyway. 

For trouser-type clothing, everything depends on the JCM's in hip2. If they are not set correctly porting will be a failure.

I did not try to convert G2 clothing yet, but there taking G2's waist as Antonia's hip and the G2 hip as the equivalent of Antonia's hip2 may do the trick.    

So its "Hip2" for no other reason than that was the name that got typed in?

The grouping, hierarchy and IK chains are absolutely not an issue. Just the names.

There is a standard naming convention for a reason. Naming a body part "Hip2" does not magically circumvent rigging issues or make it superior.

Irrespective of Wardrobe Wizard, I don't believe that any existing pose file for what might be termed "standard" figures includes data for a body part named "Hip2". Those files will be trying to apply their hip data to a mid section of the torso which is clearly not the hip.

May I please ask:

(a) how is this incompatibility in some way superior?

and (b)  how is this being addressed?

Edited for clarification 1:48 Eastern

how about talking to ODF about it? seriously.. he's the one that did the work...

Quote - I also loaed the lo res mesh into Modo and it exhibits the same polygons flipped.

I find that Modo will display some polygons as flipped because of their normals, when the polys actually aren't flipped.  I have a morphed version of Antonia's Hip2 actor on which a flipped polygon is shown at a sharply-angled transition in the mesh.  This polygon does not show up as backward when another shaping of the same mesh is loaded into Modo.  The mesh structure hasn't changed, no polygons have been flipped.  Only the shape has changed, but that still confuses Modo.  So what you're seeing in the fingernails may not actually be flipped polygons.  :unsure:

Quote - There is a standard naming convention for a reason. Naming a body part "Hip2" does not magically circumvent rigging issues or make it superior.

I thought the standard was that "Hip" is universally the parent actor for the entire rigging hierarchy.  The Hip2 actor is a child of Hip, which is still at the top of the hierarchy.  Lacking an existing naming convention for a single actor between the Hip and the Thighs, Hip2 was selected.  Or is there a standard name for such an actor?    If there are two intervening actors, they're the Buttocks.  But here, there's only the one actor.

Quote - I also loaed the lo res mesh into Modo and it exhibits the same polygons flipped.

It is not flipped normals.

It is concave faces.

Now what I'd like to know is which of the base textures works with the Antonia 1.0 release, without having to wade through an excessive amount of outdated files.

Quote - I thought the standard was that "Hip" is universally the parent actor for the entire rigging hierarchy.  The Hip2 actor is a child of Hip, which is still at the top of the hierarchy.  Lacking an existing naming convention for a single actor between the Hip and the Thighs, Hip2 was selected.  Or is there a standard name for such an actor?    If there are two intervening actors, they're the Buttocks.  But here, there's only the one actor.

Exactly.

Now what I'd like to know is which of the base textures works with the Antonia 1.0 release, without having to wade through an excessive amount of outdated files.

Yeah I need to figure out the same thing. Is there a way to package these items for the new release together in say a subfolder for those of us (well, me anyway!) who get lost navigating the rug between bedroom and bathroom in the dark of the night, to more easily click and download the pertinent stuff for this final release? 

I read the post set up at DAZ....you are there ODF and crew, word is getting around and from what I saw Maskda has also created a morph for her....check it out it is for a limited time!....and similar new and old compatability concerns went up there as well.

Remeber: A well informed consumer is a happily prolific user.  ;)

Quote - last one.

Oh, these renders are beautiful. What hair is on Antonia...especially the blonde hair?

What did you do the renders in?

The hair sets are called Forest princess hair (black) and goldendrops (Blonde). I use Poserpro2010 to do my renders. These took 1.5 min each. They're just figure tests. At least now I know hair is not a problem for Antonia:)

Standard Poser figures contain a stomach area which may be split into one or two groups, a pelvis area and two legs. The thigh area of the legs may be split into an upper and lower sections or kept as a single group.

Antonia meets this criteria, there are no issues with the grouping or topology.

Antonia's rigging could be the best thing since sliced bread or absolute rubbish, it makes no difference to me. Her rigging in my opinion is in fact very well done indeed.

IK chains similar, will not matter one way or the other.

Consider the Poser 8 figure Alyson

P8 Alyson's upper stomach is named "abdomen"
P8 Alyson's lower stomach is named "waist"
P8 Alyson's pelvis area is named "hip"
P8 Alyson's upper legs are named "rButtock" and "lButtock"

Alyson complies with the standard Poser body part naming convention.

Antonia's, upper stomach is named "abdomen"
Antonia's lower stomach is named "hip"
Antonia's pelvis is named "hip2"
The top of her legs are named "rThigh" and "lThigh"

Alyson's topology is the same as that of Antonia', however whereas Alyson conforms to Poser's naming convention Antonia's does not. The consequences are that there will be issues when the figure is used with existing elements of the Poser application. There will include, but not limited to; Wardrobe Wizard, Poses, other scripts and utilities.

It could have been avoided very simply if the lower stomach area had been named "waist" and the pelvis area had been named "hip" 

shante, which forum is the post in?

I tried but can't find it. (edited: never mind, I found it).

and yes,those renders are beautiful!

Quote - It could have been avoided very simply if the lower stomach area had been named "waist" and the pelvis area had been named "hip"

If the concern is pose compatibility between figures, wouldn't naming the actor at the top of the hierarchy "waist" create problems?  Antonia takes the poses of other figures tolerably well.  The "hip" actor is still the top actor and the poses ignore the "hip2" actor.  The "waist" sounds like a standard name for an actor which falls between the hip and the abdomen, where the hip is still at the top of the hierarchy. 

Are you suggesting that it would be better to name the top hierarchical actor "waist", rather than "hip"? 

The key point with Antonia's rigging is that the pelvis area is not the top actor in the hierarchy.

I think it was RAMWOLF who posted Antonia Progress there:

http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=158203

and I am pretty sure the link was there as well for the limited time available Maskda morphs.

I am not concerned that the pelvis area is not the top actor in the hierarchy.

I am concerned that the pelvis area has been named "hip2" and therefore makes it very difficult to provide Wardrobe Wizard support.

Previously there have been other figures where the creator has not understood the implications of deviating from Poser standards. In some of those cases I have worked with the author, reconfigured the model and sent them back a copy which they then distributed from their site. As in this case all that was involved was a search and replace on the body part names. I believe one had used "rShoulder" rather than the Poser standard of "rShldr". No big deal, easily fixed.

If required I'll be happy to do the same here but please let us not get side tracked into hierarchy and IK pros and cons, they simply are not relevant to getting the figure Wardrobe Wizard compatible. 

Quote - If required I'll be happy to do the same here but please let us not get side tracked into hierarchy and IK pros and cons, they simply are not relevant to getting the figure Wardrobe Wizard compatible.

Okay.  Just trying to understand where you're coming from, with this.  :thumbupboth:

I would like to create a morph that will work on both the lo-res and regular versions. Is there a trick to that? Which version should I create it on and how can I best make sure it will apply to both?

S'OK, no problem

The economics are that the time spent in creating the Wardrobe Wizard support files for (and please don't take this the wrong way), "less well known" figures is barely recouped in sales, if at all.

Butt and its a big Hip2 I would like to see this and similar community figures given the very best chance of success.

I am pretty sure that odf will check in here soon to see what people wrote, Phil, and sort things out with you! As I have not THE big clue of such things (and, funny enough, understood that it's a problem with names and not with the way a figure is rigged): Is a re-naming important for making Antonia work just with WW2 or with it's result, the converted clothes, as well?

@SteveJax shouldn't the created date be the 11th?**
**

This had to be posted first, for the rest (as there are so many new postings) I allowed myself to collect all questions I am able to adress and answer them in one single post.

First of all: I am so amazed and happy to see renders, ideas and creations pop up here and elswhere. It's so cool to see Antonia step out into the world and come alive under your mouses and tablets.

BluechEcho asked:
BTW:The morps, poses and textures work fine in DS3 unless you create the morph with Binary Morphs enabled in Poser.

In the DAZ Freepozitory you can pick up the InjectPMD Plugin for DS. I have not tried it out yet but I saw several postings in the forums pointing to it so this should work.
Here's the link to the discussion:
http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=72737&highlight=pmd+injection

shante asked: having a common location where ALL THINGS ANTONIA can be found

I think Antonia's Free Site would be the perfect place. I point to it in the notes for all my gallery renders:
http://antonia.bluecho4u3d.com/start.htm

SteveJax asked: Are you a Dev site contributor?  Can your contributions be shared for use with Antonia 1.0?  Please respond!

Respond: Yes, I am! Yes! - and I just tried it out: The "Anna" body- and head-morphs still work as desired with the 1-0-0 version. I will render a sample and post it later.

Ok, who wants these XMP MetaData files for the base figures?

Me too! snatch

odf said: (By the way, the free site has a really nice interface for updating my older uploads. Great work, Leo!)

Isn't it? He did it because I am always, each single time, making typos when adding my description - and Leo waves "Hi, odf!" and says: But my wife was able to detonate even this system so that I had to correct her typos in the database.

@fivecat and V01f: Lovely!!!!!

bob1965 asked: Now what I'd like to know is which of the base textures works with the Antonia 1.0 release, without having to wade through an excessive amount of outdated files.

I can only speak for myself: Everything I released on Antonia's free site was done with the 1.0 version in mind (high-poly version) and will work with her.

Quote - > Quote - I also loaed the lo res mesh into Modo and it exhibits the same polygons flipped.

 

It is not flipped normals.

It is concave faces.

Spot on! I just had a look in Wings, and yes, there are non-convex faces around the finger nails. Some 3d software handles these nicely, some doesn't.

I am working (slowly due to time shortages) to make all my sets so they work with the latest release.

And I'm trying to do a new Grandma morph but there are some snags.

I'll post some images soon and maybe if I keep trying I cabget it finished.

@SaintFox: I found that I can make INJ and REM for Antonia without enabling Binary Morphs when I save my files. And they do work in DS...yay.

I much prefer that. I have the Inject PMD scripts, but it's a PITA to use PMD morphs in DS even with that because you have to know exactly where the pose is and find it in the file system using the script instead of just double clicking it in DS.

Um...anyone care to answer about making a morph that can be used by both the lo and righ res versions or is it not possible?

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I also loaed the lo res mesh into Modo and it exhibits the same polygons flipped.

 

It is not flipped normals.

It is concave faces.

Spot on! I just had a look in Wings, and yes, there are non-convex faces around the finger nails. Some 3d software handles these nicely, some doesn't.

LOL What you didn't trust me?

I make ridiculously crappy models  every once-in-awhile and have been known to abuse polys so I recognized it even before opening the mesh in Blender for verification.

@SaintFox

Thanks for the answer.

Minor sensible idea:

It would probably be beneficial to include a base texture with the figure. I mean if the idea is to promote wider usage of the figure people really shouldn't have to track down the base texture.

@PhilC: I seem to remember that we tried using a different name than hip for the root of the hierarchy, and that it caused serious problems. But I've forgotten what exactly those problems were, and it may well be that they're not as serious as not having WW support.

I was actually planning to take a break from Antonia for some time, but I'm willing to make a test version with the renaming you suggest (hip -> waist, hip2 -> hip). Maybe it would be good to have some volunteers to try it out and see if anything breaks.

But I'd like to ask you a question, too: why is the naming of body parts so crucial for WW? Couldn't you just assume our hip2 was called hip and take it from there? I understand that Poser uses certain naming conventions, and we can't change Poser, so we have to go with them. But you have - presumably - full control over the way WW does things and could make your own conventions. I apologize if that's a naive question. I have no concept of the inner workings of WW.

Quote - I much prefer that. I have the Inject PMD scripts, but it's a PITA to use PMD morphs in DS even with that because you have to know exactly where the pose is and find it in the file system using the script instead of just double clicking it in DS.

Um...anyone care to answer about making a morph that can be used by both the lo and righ res versions or is it not possible?

Vertex counts and order have to match between base and morph.

It is possible to create both a high poly and a matching low poly morph separately but not one morph that works on both bases.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I also loaed the lo res mesh into Modo and it exhibits the same polygons flipped.

 

It is not flipped normals.

It is concave faces.

Spot on! I just had a look in Wings, and yes, there are non-convex faces around the finger nails. Some 3d software handles these nicely, some doesn't.

LOL What you didn't trust me?

Of course I would trust you blindly, stranger on the internet. :laugh: But it so happened that I had actually looked at the issue just a minute before seeing your post.

I could, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort since I don't know how many people will actively use the low poly version. If it's not possible to do both at once, then I'll create for the high poly version.

Odf has a system for converting morphs from Low to High.  If we can get that working for everyone, it would be easier in general to create morphs using the Low version.  The morph transfer script Spanki and I wrote can easily convert from High to Low, given the comparison files.

@odf: I guess this is a good time to ask about that weight-listing file you mentioned, for the Low to High conversion.  Can I get a copy, to convert for compatibility with TDMT?

Attached Link: Morphing Clothes

I just successfully transferred my full body morph over to Antonia-lo using Morphing Clothes, available here at Renderosity.  See link.

In the attached image, Antonia-lo is on the left, and Antonia on the right.

Quote - I just successfully transferred my full body morph over to Antonia-lo using Morphing Clothes, available here at Renderosity.  See link.

That's excellent, and a much better solution.  :woot:

Yes I could re-write sections of Wardrobe Wizard.

Yes I could email all the thousands of people who have purchased it over the last several years and suggest that they download and install an update. All at my expense.

Yes the update could very quickly get posted on the warez boards so that those many many thousands of good folks will not be disadvantaged in any way, bless their hearts.

Yes I could communicate with Smith Micro and explain why another service release is required for Poser 8

Yes that service release could go through their quality control/beta testing system prior to release.

Yes all the Poser 8 users can download and install that update.

Or someone can open the Antonia CR2 in a text editor and substitute "waist" for hip and then "hip" for "hip2".

Which of these two solutions would appear to be the most practical to you?

Ok, since I am not overly clear on how yall want to distribute morphs and such nor how yall would like them packaged can someone close to the project take a CR2 with 44 morphs I have loaded into her and package them for everyone to use?

I have the morphs grouped in the body for easy reference and includes the following:

Shape Morphs
    Head
        CheekVolume
        CheekBones
        ChinCleave
        ChinWide
        ChinLarge
        JawWide
        NoseBridgeConcave
        NoseBridgeThin
        NosePug
        NosePointy
        NostrilDefine

    UpperBody
        ArmPitDeep
        BackDefinition
        NeckMuscles

    Breast
        AerolaPoofy
        AerolaDiameter
        BreastPetite
        BreastPoofy
        BreastRaise
        BreastRotateOut
        BreastRotateUp
        BreastSize
        BreastUnderSoften
        Nipples
        NipplePinchY
        NipplePinchCenter
        NippleDiameter
        NipplesPoofy

    LowerBody
        Abs (this one sucks honestly but better than nothing)
        BellyButtonDepth
        BellyButtonOutie
        BellyButtonPinchY
        BellyButtonPinchXBottom
        BellyButtonPinchX
        BellyButtonShallow
        GluteCrease
        GluteLowerSize
        GluteUpperSize
        GroinCrease
        HipCrest
        LowerBellyIn
        SidesIn
        PubicBulge

    ArmsLegs
        KneeCaps

Let me know who, if anyone, wants the cr2 and I will get it on my server and shoot you a link.  If you want a full body OBJ for each, let me know, I can post those somewhere too.

Quote - Yes I could re-write sections of Wardrobe Wizard.

Yes I could email all the thousands of people who have purchased it over the last several years and suggest that they download and install an update. All at my expense.

Yes the update could very quickly get posted on the warez boards so that those many many thousands of good folks will not be disadvantaged in any way, bless their hearts.

Yes I could communicate with Smith Micro and explain why another service release is required for Poser 8

Yes that service release could go through their quality control/beta testing system prior to release.

Yes all the Poser 8 users can download and install that update.

Or someone can open the Antonia CR2 in a text editor and substitute "waist" for hip and then "hip" for "hip2".

Which of these two solutions would appear to be the most practical to you?

Fair enough! I was just wondering whether there were any technical issues preventing you from doing that. The other issues, I can understand.

Morphs can be transfered manually with poser only. No additional software.

You must save body parts from mesh as a separate obj. Later import them to Poser and clothify (all contrained), collide against only corresponding body part, then save as morph target. If you transfer FBM for all body parts it take ages but if you wish transfer only breasts it is fast and easy.

I use DS. I have Poser 6, but I don't use it any more than I have to. For a freebie morph, I don't have to. If it were paid, I'd dish out for the Morphing Clothes solution above.

Which I've now done and initial test looks OK.

Joints are as they were, only the names were changed to protect the innocent :)

Quote - It could have been avoided very simply if the lower stomach area had been named "waist" and the pelvis area had been named "hip"

No it couldn't! the 'hip' has a rather special place in Poser tradition, as the contiguous descendant of BODY. And whilst it in not written on a stone tablet that it must be so, to flout this convention would seem sheer lunacy! Naming the pelvis hip, and making the 'waist' the contiguous descendant of BODY, with hip as a descendant of 'waist', would be at the very least, seem extremely odd and unconventional. 

Quote - Previously there have been other figures where the creator has not understood the implications of deviating from Poser standards.

There is great virtue in adhering to standards, on the other hand, something can not be completely new, and standard at the same time. The standard for actor names and hierarchy is defined in the "StdHierarchy.txt" that ships with all Poser versions.

There is a long tradition with Poser figures, of adding none standard actors and hierarchies. Antonia (hip2), V4(lEye rEye, bodyMorphs) V3(buttocks), V2 (upNeck, buttocks), and Jessi(a heap of toes), all added none standard actors. So in a sense it is standard procedure, to add none standard actors.

Quote - I use DS. I have Poser 6, but I don't use it any more than I have to. For a freebie morph, I don't have to. If it were paid, I'd dish out for the Morphing Clothes solution above.

Morphing Clothes is standalone, you don't need poser to use it (if that is what you meant; I wasn't quite sure).

Anyway, any morphs I create I will transfer over so anyone using them can use them on both figures.

@BlueEcho: How did you create the DS compatible injection? I am very interested as I had problems with this before (only head morphs work as applied to one bodypart only, FBMs do nothing). Back then I used Injection Magic but meanwhile I am tired of no support by DAZ.

But nowwhere I use the pmd injection isntead the situation is even worse for DS users...

@fivecat: Kind of genious!