Hi,

I have one figure in my scene and using IBL.  In the preview I see the figure's shadow on the ground. What I would like to do is render that ground shadow so that it is placed on a separate layer when I export to PSD format.

Looking in the manual, it says if I use the Auxiliary drop down menu in the render settings and choose Custom 3, and if there is nothing connected to Custom 3 slot in the poser surface node, I will get a separate layer for shadows. I tried it and it gave me a separate shadow layer, but only shadows that are cast on the figure itself, but none of the ground shadows were included on that shadow layer.

I thought if there was a shadow output on the ground node, maybe I could connect that to the Custom 3 slot in the poser surface node, but I don't see a shadow output on the ground node.

Anyone familiar with how to get the ground shadows to render on a separate PSD layer? Thank you

 

MM

What version of Poser?

In your render options, you can render your shadows separately.  Do one render without shadows, and another with just shadows.  Copy/paste one on top of the other in your graphic program.

in P8 and later, ground loads as shadow-catcher for directional lites in default scene with android.

Using PoserPro2010. 

Acadia, I tried the "shadows only" option in render settings. It did give me shadows, but only on the figure, not on the ground, and all the rest of the scene was white.

Miss Nancy, I did read about the shadow catcher, but not sure I understand it, kinda new territory for me. Are you saying that I can't render the ground shadow? I do have the shadow catch only box checked. In the manual it reads as follows if that box is checked........."The floor will be invisible except for the shadow laying on it, so the only things in your rendered scene will be the figure and its shadow"

What settings would I have to use or change in PP2010 to get that shadow on the ground on a separate layer when I export to PSD, but keeping the rest of the usual PSD layers as well for compositing?

I thought selecting the Custom 3 render setting would do the trick, but no ground shadows, only shadows on the figure came out.

 

 

it's not gonna be easy.  was also problem with early carrara versions and GI - no shadow-catching. in P8 it also appears there's no shadow-catching on ground plane when using IDL (GI), nor when using IBL/AO on lite, nor AO node on ground.  shadow-catching works with directional lites, but I only know how to export the figure together with the ground plane shadow, not the shadow separately from the figure.  can run renderpasses for each lite, but figure will always be visible AFAIK.

Quote - I only know how to export the figure together with the ground plane shadow, not the shadow separately from the figure.

Ok, if you could fill me in on how you do it, that would be great for now.

At least if you could tell me what settings I need to change/add so that I can get the figure and ground shadows together, I can edit out the figure shadow for now. The problem is I'm not getting the ground shadow at all no matter what settings I've used up to this point. Strange that I'm not getting the ground shadow in the exported PSD file since I have the shadow catch box checked in the poser_surface node, is it because I'm using strictly IBL?

Thanks, much appreciate the help!

 

MM

the ground shadows are not good with IBL/AO, but I can see 'em now.

export that as filename.psd, then the figure and ground shadow alpha channel would look like this.  I dunno if it would work with IDL or with an AO node on the ground, but it works with AO on the IBL.

That is the alpha channel, which I was able to get, but I'm looking for the shadows to render out to look the same as the normal channel instead of the alpha. Unfortunately there seems to be a scarce amount of info in the manual on the ground plane and what options are available. Thanks for the assistance, I'll keep on trying.

 

MM

Quote - Hi,

I have one figure in my scene and using IBL.  In the preview I see the figure's shadow on the ground. What I would like to do is render that ground shadow so that it is placed on a separate layer when I export to PSD format.

The shadowy looking puddles you see in the PREVIEW are not actually shadows that have anything to do with lights you set up in your scene. To render those, you have to use an actual light that can create shadows. The best approximation for this would be an infinite light pointing down straight the y-axis. If you are using only IBL you should not get any shadows at all, at least not without AO, are you sure are getting shadows or is this only an effect from a nonuniform IBL-light? The only shadow you can get with IBL is Occlusion in which case you can proceed as Ms Nancy suggested.

Ok, thanks millighost, I'm going to have to try more tests tomorrow and also check to see if I have A/O activated, I'm pretty sure it is on. Is there anything for A/O that I need to add/change in the render settings as well, or just in the lighting properties settings?

I think the shadow I'm seeing in the preview is the shadow looking puddles you mention. The IBL I'm using are four of them placed front, back, and sides evenly to surround the figure in the middle. So I'd better re-check my settings and try more renders.

 

MM

Quote - Ok, thanks millighost, I'm going to have to try more tests tomorrow and also check to see if I have A/O activated, I'm pretty sure it is on. Is there anything for A/O that I need to add/change in the render settings as well, or just in the lighting properties settings?

I think the shadow I'm seeing in the preview is the shadow looking puddles you mention. The IBL I'm using are four of them placed front, back, and sides evenly to surround the figure in the middle. So I'd better re-check my settings and try more renders.

MM

To get AO, you have to enable raytracing in the render settings.

Your setup with 4 IBL lights is, btw, at least a bit uncommon, since each IBL already represents a 360 degree lighting. If the only goal you want to achieve is a completely even lighting of your figure from all directions (which means practically no lighting at all, only color), it would be easier (and faster) to use only one IBL without an image and pure white color.

if problem is compositing the figure/ground shadow with the layer beneath it in APS, is question for APS forum.  unfortunately that requires separate alpha channel for ground shadow and figure AFAIK.  to get ground shadow with IBL, use one at ~50-60%, as shown in above.  4 would be way too brite IMVHO.

Took a quick look into this in PP2010 and I came up with this.  Rendered for shadows only, anything that will cast a shadow, will, including the ground.  When accessing the GROUND in the material room, uncheck *Reflection_lite_Mult.*  This may give problems.  On your directional light, an infinite in this instance, use raytrace and set your *Shadow Blur Radius* to 0.  That will intensify the shadow.  You may want to experiment with AO on the ground material (set up is found in the Wacros) rather than in your light.  I agree with Miss Nancy and millighost, 4 IBL's is overkill.  You misunderstand the concept of Image Based Lighting and how it is applied.  It is an ambient, or global, light filler which is not even necessary in PP2010.  That has been initially replaced by IDL.

Hi hborre, thanks for jumping in here. You remember that what we're basically trying to do by using IBL with a common image is have my poser scene lighting match exactly to my friend's lighting in Truespace program.  He's got the room modeled and textured, and he's dropping in my Ben figure rendered from PoserPro2010. He needs Ben's floor shadow on a separate PSD layer for compositing. That's the basics of it, but being fairly green at this lighting stuff, some of it is traveling over my head. I don't know if my friend Breech Block will post here or not, he is very busy at the moment.

That said, I will try out what you suggested and what everyone else has suggested. I remember you posting a sample IBL scene, and you had one infinite light in addition to the IBL. I have eliminated the infinite light from my setup, but from what everyone is saying, to my understanding, if I want to get shadows I will need to add the infinite light back into the setup. I'll post my render and lighting setting screengrabs, maybe that will help. I don't want to waste everyone's time if I'm not experienced enough to understand the technical aspect.  Thanks again.

 

MM

Here are some screengrabs, all four IBL's are setup the same properties.

Light controls

Render settings w/Custom 3 in auxiliary selected. This is the render settings that bagginsbill and yourself helped me with awhile ago, I saved as a preset, so nothing was changed between then and now.

As you can see, I've got no shadows on the ground in the sample render.

Materials room Ground settings and poser_surface settings

to get the ground shadow in a separate layer from the figure, render the figure with no ground, then invert the figure render alpha and use it as mask for the figure+ground shadow render

I went back into PP2010 to further play with this concept and understand exactly what curtails when custom_output_3 is enable for PSD export.  As the manual describes, custom_output_3, when no materials are associated with it, will create a PSD layer that contains Shadow only.  This will also create a transparent background, similar to saving in PNG format.  The OP's problems is strictly capturing ground shadows into a separate PSD layer for postwork, which is plausible but will involve more manipulation to get the final results.  I think we are all in agreement that the original scene is too saturated in IBL light sets to effectively cast any significant shadow.  And this shadow effect is strictly dependent upon AO presence.  One IBL should be enough for cast marginal shadowing, but it's intensity may not be relevant, depending on the postwork scene.

As a test, I loaded Andrea into a vacant scene with one white IBL, 15% intensity, placed overhead and quickly rendered the scene with Custom_output_3 selected in Render settings.  The resulting image was then exported as a PSD and opened in PSCS3.  The enclosed image shows the results.  Please ignore the file title, that is incorrectly labeled.

Examining the layers window closely, you will find that the shadows only layer (Custom3) is unchecked and not visible in the final image in PS.  As illustrated in the image enclosed.

However, hiding the background layer and unhiding the Custom 3 layer will reveal this type of image.  Everything casting a shadow is present including the AO shadowing from IBL.

In order to intergrate both layers effectively, the normal setting for the Custom 3 layer must be set to multipy.  As shown in attached.

I wasn't too satisfied with this IBL result, so I rerendered the scene with 100% IBL intensity.  Yep, the scene is brighter, but your ground shadow insignificant, IMHO.

Now, if we are looking for substantial shadows, then we must consider using some type of directional lighting.  The OP mentioned integrating the image into an indoors environment, in which case, a point light would be more than adequate lighting.  For my demonstration, I used an infinite light for overall illumination.  As you can see, Andrea is now casting a reasonable shadow, a shadow map with a transparent background ready for postwork.  For render purposes in Poser, the Shadow Blur radius on the Infinite light was set to zero.  This intensified the shadows for better sharpness and clarity. 

I did try rendering the scene with shadows only activated in the Render settings under the same type of scenario.  But the results were not satifactory.  Transparency is completely lost and useless.  The image layers could be used in a different way, but who knows.

Oh, BTW, this is my material setting for the ground plane.  Nothing spectacular.

Very interesting hborre, and thanks for spending your time to do these experiments, much appreciated. In your last demonstration where you used an infinite light for overall illumination, what position did you place that infinite light, and what intensity did you use?  If you also used only one IBL, where did you position that and what intensity did you use?  (In my very first attempts at this I did have only one IBL and one infinite light, but they must not have been positioned correctly because the light was not evenly dispursed as I would have expected it to be, there were dark areas around the figure.)

I ask because I used 4 IBLs placed about waist-chest high in relation to the figure, and they were placed one in front, one behind, and the others on the sides, as illustrated in my light control panel screen grab. In order to match the lighting in my friend's Truespace indoor scene I tried 24%, 40%, and 55% intensity. The 24 and 40 renders seemed too dark. The 55% seems to match pretty well with my friend's lighting in his scene, in which he is using the same IBL image.  Could just be the way each program handles the IBL lighting perhaps? 

Since the IBL lighting at 55% seems to be a good match between the two programs, our concern then became to find a way to have a shadow on the ground. Seems like you've accomplished that by adding the infinite light, and setting the shadow blur radius to zero.

You also have your poser_surface node shown in your material setting for the ground plane. In mine I have an additional smaller node showing for the ground plane, but it's not attached to anything, so I guess it is irrelevent and I should just set my poser_surface node with the same settings shown in yours above. Do all the other light properties settings in my screengrabs look good to leave as is? 

I'll try a few renders, send them to my friend with the infinite light added and see how/if it affects the lighting in the indoor scene.  Thanks again everyone for all the assistance.

 

MM

In both cases, light sets were placed about 12 o'clock position, IBL slightly to the left, Infinite slightly to the right.  Initial IBL test was rendered to at 15% intensity; Infinite rendered at 75% intensity.  I did increase IBL to 100% on the second example which intensified the illumination.  Again, this was only performed with white, non-image light set.  If your friend is using an image in his IBL to light the room, you should be using the same light source image for your renders.  One IBL is enough to provide your ambient lighting needs, more will saturate the scene.  Also, position the IBL close to your infinite light for a more exacting directional illumination.

The extra node for the Ground Plane zone is not connected to anything and is irrelevent.

Hborre, looks like I'm getting closer, this was using one infinite and one IBL. I now have a shadow, but for some reason even though I set my blur radius to zero as you suggested, it doesn't seem as dark as yours, but maybe we don't need it that dark anyhow. I have my infinite light intensity at 75% and the IBL intensity at 55%. I'll have to work out the intensity setting with my friend to see what matches best.

It seems there would be no way to separate the ground shadow from the figure's shadow on that custom 3 layer, do you know of a way to do that? Thanks again, much appreciate the help.

 

MM

Here's a screen grab of the full render

Here is the positioning of the lights just to be sure I've got it correct....

So far, everything looks correct.  Keep in mind, IBL is an ambient filler light, it will lighten shadows in your render depending on it's intensity.  I have not tested any of these scenarios using IDL in PP2010.  Technically, it would require more work because a soft lighting skydome would be need to be introduced, and IBL totally eliminated from the final render.  There may be several other factors to consider in that final setup. 

In photoshop, change the Custom 3 layer's normal setting to multiply.  It will merge with the background layer better and darken those shadowed areas.   

I did try switching that layer to multiply and it was slightly darker. Well at least I've got the shadow on the ground now. Btw I don't have PS, I'm using Gimp to view the PSD file.

Am I correct in assuming that there probably is no way of eliminating the figure shadow so that only the ground shadow comes out in the custom 3 layer?

I pondered this problem while setting up the illustrations and I couldn't come up with a plausible solution.  The only potential workthrough is performing quite a bit of extensive postwork to reconstruct the missing shadow areas and masking.  So yes, you are correct, there is no easy way to isolate the ground shadow within the custom 3 layer.

That's what I thought, we'll have to find another way around it, just trying to save as much work as possible.

Thanks hborre, and thanks also to all here who have given so generously of their time and knowledge to help me, it is greatly appreciated! :-)  I hope others like myself who are just beginning to learn about lights will benefit from this thread.

MM