I took a long sabbatical from poser to do glamour photography.

I'm back only to update my product at renderotica as apparently its incompatible with Daz Studio Advanced 4.

I thought to myself I would do some images to show of the lighting skills I had learnt with photographing people and also the new product for 3ds max that I have to desperately update to be compatible with max 2012.

I look in the gallery to see how far the world of poser has gone in terms of realism: what with all the new software out there. I thought I would be pleasantly surprised by the class of the images.

Instead things have gone from bad to worse. The Cliques are running strong voting in and commenting on images by popularity.

THe same old rubbish is up there and the really good stuff has to be found.

RGUS is still churning out the same high-quality stuff, but it hasn't changed in over a year away.

No other names come to mind, because no other names seem to be worth recalling.

I thought this was meant to be  creative ART site. There is precious little of that here.

I know I will attract the evil eye of retribution because much of my stuff is far from artitstic, but I try. Even if I am not da Vinci, I can still express a negative opinion.

I think the admin tried to clean up the cliques 2 years ago, but perhaps it had a negative impact on sales. Regardless the Cliques with their popularity polls on images have really taken control of the entire site.

there can be quality 3D art rendered in poser, but perhaps its only found on other sites.

Raj

You are one brave soul...lol

I'll drink a toast to you at your barbeque...hehehe.

Laurie

You have Max/MR
so what is there to bother you about how poser renders images ??

I use Maxon C4D R11 with Vray and Maxwell

I dont bother with the galleries here 

perhaps you should not either.

Just a thought

MY REAL GALLERY

Cheers

Quote - You are one brave soul...lol I'll drink a toast to you at your barbeque...hehehe.

Laurie

Ditto that. My own gallery is sparse because, quite honestly, there is really nothing all that post-worthy that I produce. I'm going to be taking a class (shortly after I've downloaded PP2012) on photography from the wedding-photography mob that we hired the studio lights and camera and backdrop from for my stepdaughter's 21st birthday party, for which i was the designated papparrazzi (never sure how that is spelt... LOL). I had to heavily photoshop them because of my lack of knowledge about even studio lighting.

And that's the problem with most of those images, really: lighting. Or one of the key problems, anyway. Get on Facebook and tell me that those photographs are superbly lit. Well, some of that same mob do Poser as well. In another thread we talked about what the key factor to Poser's survival is: it's not about art, really. It's about buying. Not all that many want to go the route of learning all this stuff properly. They just want to consume. That's why the marketplace churns out the same-ol'-same-ol'... people want that.  It's about federation around a popular figure (V4) and buying stuff for her and making your "artwork" - such as it is - from that. That is what has credibility, has dominance, has staying power: consumerism.

Sure, there are those of us who rather make stuff - we like the sense of achievement that comes from doing something unique in this area - but per the masses we are the weird minority.

Mostly, it's about buying. The marketplace and the galleries reflect that.

Laments about the "quality" of renders focus on a rather narrow and subjective view of what art should look like.  Complaining about this kind of thing has gone on for as long as people have created visual imagery.  Art is about evoking an emotion, inspiring thought or seeking change.

Maybe you're right that most of what gets posted here evokes, inspires or seeks nothing in particular.  Perhaps that's not what people are trying to do.  Poser is often about fantasy, so if you're looking for serious art, you'll have to wade through a lot of material before you'll find something that's even intended as seriously artistic.  That's the nature of the program. 

Robyn is right about a popular method of posting here, whereby a single V4 figure gets put into a new outfit, posed and rendered with glaring light as if it's "art."  Maybe it's appropriate to broadly dismiss people who use Poser as not serious, but like any other generalization, exceptions exist and it's not fair to those folk to presume that everyone who uses Poser is inferior artistically to those who are using higher-end software.

A group of people who haunt these forums complain endlessly about lighting, but a lot of us are simply doing the best we can.  Some folk are getting gradually and steadily better at making light in Poser appear like something that approaches what we see in real life.  If you're expert in that realm, I affirm and applaud you.

Meanwhile, I try to make every render better than the one before.  If that doesn't meet your standards, and if most of the people reading this think my gallery is lame, you can either help me improve what I'm doing, or ignore me as irrelevant and focus on what you feel is more important.

How does complaining help?

And you posted this why? If the gallery isn't to your liking, don't post in it and don't look through it. Simple enough solution to me.  The internet is a large place, I'm sure there are galleries out there more to your liking.

My theory on the reason you posted is because you are trying to insight an argument. Sorry. I'm not biting :)

I think there are a lot of 'hobbyists' who are active in the galleries who mainly create for the enjoyment and socialization more than for mastering techniques/skills.

I don't think it's a bad thing. Not everyone uses 3d to achieve photo-realism or push the boundaries. Some of us just do it for fun.

raj, they will soon be able to do more realistic renders in poser, provided one supplies them with the criteria of note, as in any individual there is a significant difference between perception and reality.   as you have seen, popularity is not an useful criterion.

• Places hand over mouth and giggles* I am sure that Raj isn't the only one to think this just the only one to actually say so.

I think a distinction should be made between how Poser renders images and how Poser users generally render images.

Personally, I don't think the pinup genre is all that creative in any case.

Attached Link: http://youtu.be/FVP19f4xwH4

please view. I swear it is safe for work.

Maybe we can start a thread complaining about non-standard spelling in the Renderosity forums?

;)

My two cents on this:

1. art is in the eye of the beholder. Art to one person may not be to another.

2. keep this thread nice or it will be locked.

don't get me wrong. I like poser. I port poser people to 3ds max and use my plugin for max to experiement with lighting and camera work etc. That is before I get the real people in and photograph them with lighting setups often first tried in 3ds max. I've become a pinup and lingerie specialist (kind of) but I am working on my nudes: building up a portfolio. I practice the poses I want in poser first before the models come in. And now they pay me :)

Its not the art that I lament. Its the quality of said art.

I don't mind joe bloggs getting ds3 or 4 for free, uploading a picture and then calling it art. But as a community we don't actually praise stuff that is genunely noteworthy. Sure there is often an arguement about art, and yes its in the eye of the beholder. But surely this popularity contest serves no purpose?

As has been said before, we just consume. I think if the quality of the work that was praised improved markedly - I don't think consumption would suffer. I expect it would get better. I used to think it was the lighting equipment that made a good photographer and $25k later I figure out its how you use it that really matters. I think Elinchrom, ALien bees, and Broncolor would be very happy from my pursuit of becoming better.

As far as "changing the channel if you don't like the show". Well i've done that for a year now. But unfortunatley the same show is on endless repeat and I'd like something else to be shown on what was my favourite station.

Quote - But surely this popularity contest serves no purpose?

I think for many, getting points in the "popularity contest" is the purpose.

People like people looking at and praising stuff they do, it's part of human nature, and gives credence to the idea that what they were doing was worth the time spent.

For some, that is more important than creating "art" is.

As well,  too many people seem to be of the opinion that they have to 5 star everything and praise it as wonderful, even if something isn't. I've seen many pictures here at Renderosity that have some technical, easily-fixed problem (toes intersecting with shoes/the floor) that are 5 starred and all the comments are about how beautiful and excellent and perfect the picture is, despite the glaring problems that should be eye-catching.

I know I myself don't use Poser in an attempt to create art, but to illustrate characters and events that I have in my head, but for which my artistic skills aren't up to par for getting out.. If someone wants to call it art, that's fine, but it isn't really my main goal. But ultimately, I'm more interested in being able to get a visual of a character, that I can put into any situation I want, and have it be consistent for each image of each character.

I agree with you Raj!

I am here to buy stuff and discuss the software, I post my images on Deviant Art.
No use posting here to get real critics. If I don't get responses on Deviant Art, I know what I made is crap. On Rendo no one watches my stuff. 

Nico

Good to see you back, Raj...

Sam-isn't that Ronald Reagan? :ohmy:

  Currently, I am developing my modeling/remodeling skills, and trying to create new skin textures from "scratch." I am also attempting to create images of specific people while doing so. That is not really art I suppose. I am trying for realism in lighting and shading.

I have posted a few that I spent considerable time on with lighting and texturing-  look up "End of the Day." It is not perfect-and I asked for suggestions for improvement. I did get some kind responses- but someone else posted a picture of the same ship-with Yannis- with flat lighting- and he appeared to be floating off the deck- and it got buckets of praise. Perhaps mine was too dark?

 My thought was that the flat lighted image-perhaps it was closer to what other newbies could make- and so of more interest to most. That is OK- but I still see few suggestions for improvement.

I'm just curious if the Realism=Quality?

Not all of us actually go for the whole "realism look". I do agree tho that the quality of the images in general isn't necessarily that high, but I don't recall it ever being that.

The majority of the people here make images for fun and relaxation, and as far as I can recall that's the way it's always been. I don't necessarily think it's worse now than it was before.

There's plemty of 'art' in galleries around the world that I look at and think is crap. The millions that it is worth would say that my opinion is just that. To crticise others work such as you have makes you look a bit of a tool in my book, that's just my opinion though of course... Who the hell are you to pass judgement publicly on others work, work which is to many here just a hobby and past time that we don't profess to being experts at, we just enjoy it. Btw, the lighting on your last render looks pretty crap to me and nothing like moonlight at all. And your glamour photography looks full of cliches and nothing new... Again, just my opinion though...

sniff....I smell smoke....

Laurie

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=122117&page=1

It's definitely a "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" mentality in the galleries.  That being said, I've seen many users of Poser, Vue, etc.. trying to improve and doing an admirable job over the years. 

Look at Calum5's gallery (above link).  He started out with Poser and Bryce, then moved to Zbrush.  Now his work has been featured in several issues of ballistic publishing's Exotique.  There are several others who have ranked high in the popularity charts, who do very good work.

Raj, I love your products but I never did understand these type of threads.  Everything is relative.  If you take any of the "top" artists here, not many would hold up to what I've seen at CG talk.  Calum posts over there and gets just a handful of comments sometimes.  The only artist who consistently gets great press here and at more pro sites (deservedly so) is Stonemason.

This is a hobbyiest site.  It's products, advertising, and vast majority of gallery images confirm this.  To expect more is frankly bordering on delusional.  If you want to really improve, the sad reality is that Rendo gallery comments are probably not the best place to expect much fulfillment.  As others have said, the vast majority are just here to relax, have fun, tap into their need for artistic release, and connect with friends.

Poser is used at Cg talk and other more professional sites by very few, to very nice ends sometimes.  But again, most of the "best" poser renders (sans postwork),..at present, they just can't hold a candle to high level max renders. If they could, more pros would be using it.  Why pay more to get the same result.

I think the greatest thing going for poser right now, is that it provides a gateway for those interested in Cg art to learn the basics and move on to more serious apps as they improve. The best way to learn the basics here, is to study the few quality images (whatever those are for you) and find a few here who are willing to critique.  Post images in the galleries, make friends with whoever you consider is a great artist, and then ask them to comment on your work, privately through IM or email.

Quote - Renderosity galleries are dissapointing.

They sure are.

@ RajDarge:  I think the only solution to your "problem" would be start policing the images that are posted to the galleries to determine images that are worthy and those who are not and I don't think we'd want that.  We can't control how others progress in their art making and bithching about it doesn't really serve a purpose.  Also, new users are constantly being added to the mix and they will post images that are simple.  That's pretty how we all got started I'd imagine.

I agree with pretty much everything you said in your post apart from the fact that quality images made with Poser can only be found on other sites.  There are great Poser artists here at Rendo.  I add the ones I like to my favorites so I get a notification when they post new images but I don't comment on every image they post.  Only the images that have some sort of impact on me.

Case in point:  Just got a notification about this tasty little treat from Paul Francis:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2241330

Truly great use of Poser I'd say.

When one person has 7 of the top 15 rated images in the gallery, on a site with as many people posting as this one, something is seriously wrong with the algorithms used to determine those ratings.

While I think judging art, particularly hobbyist art, is largely a matter of taste, I find it sad that the gallery ratings show so little diversity. Week after week, it's the same five or six people. To me, this suggests a flaw in the system. Surely, there must be more than a handful of people creating good stuff in this 3d community... but you'd never know it.

I actually do see some really great stuff in the galleries, but it's really, really hard to find. I've practically given up.

hey Raj, long time no see.  Is that max plugin of yours available anywhere?

Makers of strobes would love you to buy huge amounts of their kit but sunlight and a reflector can work wonders :biggrin:

Quote - @ RajDarge:  I think the only solution to your "problem" would be start policing the images that are posted to the galleries to determine images that are worthy and those who are not and I don't think we'd want that.

OR creating a specific gallery here equivalent to CGtalk's Choice gallery, judged by a small panel of dedicated and established pro-level artists, not by the general forum community. The current system, whatever is being done, has serious problems.  The other would be large scale, very well marketed themed competititions with significant prizes for the top artists. Either would be very difficult considering the number of images uploaded daily, the resources available, and the nature of Rendo's hobbyist community.

I imagine the same thing would happen if real art galleries had ratings attached to the artwork - maybe that's why they don't have them. The question is, would people still post images and visit the gallery if the ratings and even the hits counts were removed? Would people still play if they actually had to form their own opinions without knowing what everyone else thinks?

Mencken's observation on democracy (see my sig) could well be applied to anything based on popularity. You get a few hits, a disturbing number of flat out misses and a lot of mediocrity. The alternative of having a few elites decide doesn't seem any better - although when you look at some of the people they let anywhere near a voting booth or allowing to run for office these days...

This used to bother me, too. Then... ta-da!!... I realised this is not the Metropolitan Museum of Art. This is a cafe, a hang-out, a meeting place for people who like to dabble in digital images. A place where people don't respond with blankstare when you mention render times. Some place your friends like your little things, and hope you like their stuff.

There are some excellent technicians here, and, I would suppose, a few Artists (with a capital A), but mostly just average people, who may not be consumed by an overwhelming desire to excel in the art world.

The hobbiest has a hard enough time these days just being able to afford to keep up with new software releases, much less master the intricacies of digital lighting, modeling, and brilliant content. Renderosity is a place anyone can share what they've done, or what they've learned.

You know, I've only met one professional artist, and he was the most humble, shy, unassuming person you could imagine. No fancy clothes, no big house or car. I guess he was confident enough of his own talent, that he didn't think it necessary to "sell" himself, or compare himself to others.

Who friggin cares???? If one is doing art for their own sake and it pleases them who really cares? We are all big boys and girls and should be at a point in our lives that the opinion of one person shouldn't make us get out nose out off joint.......right?? You don't even know this person so why does it EVEN matter? So many bigger problems in the world why make a mountian out of a mole hill? Now go enjoy creating :)

@JenniSjoberg

I'm just curious if the Realism=Quality? JenniSjoberg

You are right. Its not a truism, but its sometimes true. I just would have expected more of it as people push the bounds. And the non-realistic stuff shouldn't be flat, dark, lifeless and poorly posed should it? (nothing personal at jenni, just the art charts).

My first flame:
magic_man
Btw, the lighting on your last render looks pretty crap to me and nothing like moonlight at all. And your glamour photography looks full of cliches and nothing new... Again, just my opinion though...

Yes you drew blood, congratulations. In my defence:-

Felurian was a fictional character that caught my imagination and it wasn't meant to be moonlight, as the book describes it anyway.

As far as glamour photography goes: I'm just a novice and an amateur. Why would I walk away from a 6 figure salary to eek out a living with my limited talent. I enjoy it, the people I photograph enjoy it enough to pay for it and my best work isn't here: its usually private. Older women who want to look like playboy bunnies. A challenge that is very rewarding. Plus my very first portrait was taken in feb 2010, so I havent done that bad. I've Even earned a little grudging respect from other photographers.

Yes its all been said before. Probably by me. But everywhere else there is a threshold of quality people appreciate. Sure there are cliques, even there (deviant art, pbase, flickr, etc have their own "clubs" and not everything is high quaility that gets appreciated). But most high quality stuff is appreciated: unlike here. 

Its almost as if its good, people shun it.

The other camp of response so far is that of "you can't fix it". I don't doubt that you can't. The cancer is so deeply spread here and its of the non-fatal variety. Eventually all that will be here is cancer. Perhaps that's already happened?

Maybe an elite gallery that you need to apply to post in? That you can't buy your way in with popularity or money? I was there with renderotica, but I grew tired of that  genre. I know I'm ok not great, but better than most. I didn't post any sadistic images by the way.

Its probably all been said before, and perhaps I am wasting my breath.

I've heard images and social groups here called a lot of things, but this is a first for cancer. Elitism just moves the cliques from general membership to site mods and admins. Seen that, didn't like it.

I might point out that a good render is not always good art. Personally, I love arch-viz, but killer textures and lighting don't always evoke an emotional response from a lot of people. Same for expert car modelers. It's great work, but after a few hundred studio renders, they all start to look the same.

.... so, you could make me look like Angelina Jolie?? ;)

"RGUS is still churning out the same high-quality stuff, but it hasn't changed in over a year away."

I know, I know... and it's because I won't get off my arse and learn new software...

Thanks for the small vote of confidence though.

People are asking why someone would care about the state of the galleries here.

Indeed, when it comes to the quality of the "art" here, peeps should probably just ease up. There's a lot of junk, just as there are a lot of snapshots on photography sites. If someone enjoyed themselves making an image, though, or learned something in the process, more power to them.

What I do care about, however, is just how bloody hard it is to find the stuff that makes you go "wow." The stuff that you learn from just by looking at it. The gallery rankings should be introducing me to a variety of talented creators. But they're not. It's the same people few over and over, and I have to admit I get bored seeing the same style repeated endlessly. This affects my enjoyment of this site and its usefulness for me. The less I peruse the galleries, the less I buy because I'm not seeing the products being used in more creative ways. But what do I know. Maybe I'm the only one who's affected.

 I see my words are being taken far beyond my actual intent. Reality does NOT equal art.

No heat from me.

 I don't own the high end programs- such as Vray or Maxwell render that would allow closer approaches to reality.

My disapointment is related to getting realitively fewer comments- critical invited- after spending many hours tweaking, adjusting. Perhaps I am posting in the wrong place.

 My snoot is not as far up as you might think- I did not mean to offend you- or anyone else for that matter.I made no critical comments on ANY of the new renderers work. It would serve no purpose.  My "art" is far from great or sublime- although I see some people's who are much closer than mine.

 Thanks for the criticism, cliched they are-but they are not glamour renders anyway-but WIP characters.

 I was asking for constructive critiques "not perfect". I HOPE it does not look like moonlight! It is supposed to be end of sunset. Not glamour renders- character in progress pics. Creating my own skin textures, making my own morphs, etc.

ART is subjective. If people want to make and praise flat renders- that is fine. Encouragement in ALWAYS good. Most of my renders are just for fun- in fact ALL of them are just for fun. I am a hobbyist-not a professional artist, 3D or otherwise.

Quote - There's plemty of 'art' in galleries around the world that I look at and think is crap. The millions that it is worth would say that my opinion is just that. To crticise others work such as you have makes you look a bit of a tool in my book, that's just my opinion though of course... Who the hell are you to pass judgement publicly on others work, work which is to many here just a hobby and past time that we don't profess to being experts at, we just enjoy it. Btw, the lighting on your last render looks pretty crap to me and nothing like moonlight at all. And your glamour photography looks full of cliches and nothing new... Again, just my opinion though...

This has gone for long enough. I'm locking the thread.