Does using poser make you a 'not to be respected' hack artist? Or are you entitled to even call yourself an artist if you use poser?

Well apparently according to every post I have read at CG Society that's how it is! I was not aware that poser was so disrespected, or that it had such a bad rap attached to it. I was surprised to learn that poser is basically a "Click and Create" software. If it is so darn simple and easy to make art with, why is the nuances so darn hard to nail? Shoot it sounds like all I had to do is open the program and load up a character... Voila! instant art! o0

What is your opinion on this?  *sigh, anyone?

Ariana 

Should one scour the fields with your bucket and trowel looking for yellow ochre lest one be accused of cheating by purchasing paint in  tube?

Should one write one's own 3D application from scratch lest one be cited as being lazy for using one that is already developed?

Yes one can go click-aty-click through the Poser library and end up with "click" art and if that is what you want to do then have at it. However as you correctly point out there is so much more to it than that.

This subject rears it's ugly head very often. Is a photgrapher less an artist than one who paints?

Bottom line, it is the artist not the tools.

Certain folks feel that if you spend $$$$, make your own meshes that puts you ahead of everyone else.

Poser is a hobbyists tool and a pro tool.

There is spectacular art done in Poser and crappy stuff done with Max/Maya/Lightwave.

That is one website, enjoy others.

PhilC, I agree that it is in the concept, not the tool that the true artist resides.

I was just so surprised at the vehemence towards poser! That using a mesh created by others makes you (*the one who did not make said mesh) a hack. For some reason I felt deeply hurt and questioned how these folk came to this conclusion. I go to CGS to see industry firsts and other creations. I swear one won an award for a poser V3 that was painted over, well PS'd hair, and everyone raved about their talent, all i saw was..."Dang that is a V3!"!

and dlfurman I agree that a photographer is a different type of artist, and to credit it as less is an insult.

I guess I was very naive to think I might post art there... o0

HugZ
Ariana

Quote - Does using poser make you a 'not to be respected' hack artist? Or are you entitled to even call yourself an artist if you use poser?
Ariana 

I always like these types of questions.

1. People will think what ever they want to think with it comes to computer generated images. I'm surprised Photoshop doesn't get the same heat.

2. People often fail to realize that art is more than just a traditional drawing or sketch which is why people can sell a canvas with scattered paint or sell a canvas that an elephant painted on. 

3. Art is as much about composition as it is about drawing or painting.  Composition is why some people who have expensive cameras still can't take fantastic pictures. It's why some people seem to create fantastic scenes and others can't even though the software is the same. It's never just as simple as clicking a button which is why so many people get frustrated when they first start learning Poser. They think throwing a few 3d models on the screen and clicking the button will give them beautiful renders.

For me personally I used to draw traditional sketches and many times the same things I learned when studying traditional art are the same things I take into consideration when I use create my images in Poser. Using Poser definitely doesn't make me feel like a cheat.  If I'm cheating then it sure is a long process.  If anything I pretty much cheat on Poser because there are some things that are just faster to do outside of Poser.

Yeah, there is that illusion....

Look at most of the ones with that attitude; modelers, right? Those who think thou must carve every polygon out of the aether for it to be 'yours'.

CG Society has its own cache and assholes, just like Rosity and Rotica do. Worrying about what 'they' say is frankly ridiculous. Poser for me is my stable of B list actors for my animations. I don't do organic modelling, so I can either use the tools at hand or go away. 

I don't go away. I'm not in a digital penis length contest over tools; I'm a writer and storyteller. Tools are just that: tools. Yes, 90% of Poser output is utter shit. So is 90% of Maya, Max, Modo, Lightwave, etc. The only difference is that 'big app users'  bury their turds in the backyard and pretend they never existed. As a hobbyist market, Poserites tend to throw theirs out in the street and preen. It's all in how you look at it and what you are trying to do. I've had mesh monkeys waving HP prints of renders they've done on 'real' apps in my face, hooting about this very thing. I look at it, and ask a fatal question: "How long did it take you to do this?"

"Just 6 months!"

"Cool. So using my definitions, that means that in another 14.5 years you'll have one whole second of footage in the can!"

"That's not the point!"

"It is in my case." 

 But the sad, hard truth is that if the actual pro's (ie: those getting paid for their work) could get it done with Poser, they would grab it and run. Because they are the folks who work to deadlines, and if a $400 dollar program could do what their $6,000 suites do, they would save the 6k, charge as always, and have a little more money to get drunk with afterwards. The genuine professionals don't care what the tool is; only what it can get done in the allotted time. CGS is as rife with wannbe's as this place is; I wouldn't let it worry you. Art is bringing out feelings in others by design; there is plenty of art to lighting, scene arranging, etc. Things that make the contracted meshwork more than just a table of numbers or lines on a reader app. In my animation I am actually following a professional template; you contract out your work to specialists when you can't do it inhouse. In that sense, vendors are contractors who retain IP rights to the actual product, while I get liscence to use them in =MY= IP creation. And the content providers will be duly credited in the credits.

Quite a few professional artists will use Poser meshes if it suits the job in hand and is faster/cheaper than doing it from scratch

for them, it's about the end result not how you get to it - which is a pretty good attitude to take in a number of different areas if you ask me

Quote - "Does using Poser make you feel like cheats and not real artists?"

I felt like I was not a real artist long before I came across Poser. Now I have a mediun in which I can create pictures, which I could not do before (except for photography). If a real artist is someone who creates good pictures, then I'm still not one. If it is something else then I'm not really interested, it's results that I want, not membership of a club.

I think it's hard to get a good render. I am very critical of myself.

Amen, Les!

It took me a couple of years to get over the snobs and a$$holes. Now, I simply revel in what I am able to accomplish with a tool that I can reasonably afford. I am the only critic I give a **** about. (THAT is why my gallery here is empty... not because I've never created anything I wish to share.)

I'm with Les.  Once upon a time, people told me I was an Artist, because I seemed to have a natural facility for drawing and I took easily to different visual media.  But eventually I had to realize that I am just a doodler, who uses creativity to entertain himself or for private art therapy.  :lol:  And then I found Poser.  So I'd lost most of my artistic pretensions before I started with 3D.

I still wear that beret sometimes, though.  :lol:

Pheer mY mAd sKi77z!!

"Does using Poser make you feel like cheats and not real artists?"

 Hell yeah... I just love render naked women... bugger the artistry... oh sorry... I thought you were talking about people with no creativity with a medium.

I'll go stick my head in a bucket of water now. 

Is creating a lovely picture in 3d, by definition art? Or is it just a matter of skilled craftsmanship?

Quote - Does using poser make you a 'not to be respected' hack artist? Or are you entitled to even call yourself an artist if you use poser?

Well apparently according to every post I have read at CG Society that's how it is! I was not aware that poser was so disrespected, or that it had such a bad rap attached to it. I was surprised to learn that poser is basically a "Click and Create" software. If it is so darn simple and easy to make art with, why is the nuances so darn hard to nail? Shoot it sounds like all I had to do is open the program and load up a character... Voila! instant art! o0

What is your opinion on this?  *sigh, anyone?

Ariana 

Good thing you came down on the smart side of this argument Ariana. That tittle had me prepping my blow torch!

Regards,

Brent

I Lol at those type of people. They are just venting because they feel cheated that most of the hard work has been skipped by us posr/daz users. In order to create real cg art you must go through their channels and the traditional methods. What a load of BS!!!! Thats like somebody at the post office getting upset because instead of mailing a letter I decided to email instead.

I use Rons fire brush instead of creating my own fire on my image in photoshop. Does that make me less of an artist?

Just because a game company buys a game engine (eg. unreal3 engine) instead of developing their own, does that make them less of a game company?

The reality is that this mentality exists. Don't even bother arguing with them. Its Like convincing somebody of a different religion that yours is the right one.

Its difficult to catch a rider and horse in this pose, but with Poser I can move both horse and rider 360Dig.

Enjoy

To think of things in a different light.  The cups they drink from were made on a machine.  If that machine is to break, then someone has to use a tool to fix it.  They don’t mine the ore to purify mix and forge the tool.  They go to sears and buy it.  Increases productive but keeps costs down.

I use poser as a storyboard guide for all my cave drawings.

:o)~

JV

Artist create art. Art can be sculpture made of soap using knife and brass statue can be trash.

Artist can be assesed on the basis of his work, not tools.

Every writer is lazy.
There are 26 letters, and every writer uses the same ones.

Every painter is lazy.
Only three colors, RGB, and they mix them randomly together, and call it a painting. 

LOL.

Technically, the traditional painters work with red, blue, and yellow.  Computer artists trade yellow in for green, because they're actually working with light and not pigment.  Or such is my understanding, and that really wasn't the point of the post to which I'm responding.  So, erm.  Ahem.  :unsure:

How about this. Suppose that in less than 10 years keyboards and mouses with be replaced by speech recognition. So you might be sitting there creating art in Poser with just your voice! "Computer, bend left elbow 15˚..."

In 10 years from now???
I"ll take Alyson to dinner. ha-ha-ha-

Quote - "Does using Poser make you feel like cheats and not real artists?"

 Hell yeah... I just love render naked women... bugger the artistry... oh sorry... I thought you were talking about people with no creativity with a medium.

I'll go stick my head in a bucket of water now. 

LOL!!!

Hey it's called poser porn, by the elite....

;)

Quote - Is creating a lovely picture in 3d, by definition art? Or is it just a matter of skilled craftsmanship?

I think weither you use a piece of charcoal or C4D, there has to be a level of craftmanship to art. After all anyone can throw paint at a canvas, weither that is art... ask Chase that paid $50,000.00 for something simuliar.

~A~

Quote - > Quote - Does using poser make you a 'not to be respected' hack artist? Or are you entitled to even call yourself an artist if you use poser?

Well apparently according to every post I have read at CG Society that's how it is! I was not aware that poser was so disrespected, or that it had such a bad rap attached to it. I was surprised to learn that poser is basically a "Click and Create" software. If it is so darn simple and easy to make art with, why is the nuances so darn hard to nail? Shoot it sounds like all I had to do is open the program and load up a character... Voila! instant art! o0

What is your opinion on this?  *sigh, anyone?

Ariana 

Imagine my surprise! I almost posted a picture there! o0

~A~

 

Good thing you came down on the smart side of this argument Ariana. That tittle had me prepping my blow torch!

 

Regards,

Brent

I do feel better, it is amazing how hurtful some comments are!

~A~
Quote - "
Artist create art. Art can be sculpture made of soap using knife and brass statue can be trash.

Artist can be assesed on the basis of his work, not tools.

"

Brava! Well said... :)

~A~

Quote - "How about this. Suppose that in less than 10 years keyboards and mouses with be replaced by speech recognition. So you might be sitting there creating art in Poser with just your voice! "Computer, bend left elbow 15˚...""

But I LOVE spinning parameter dials!

Seriously I have actually thought of buying "Nuance Dragon" voice recognition typing. Maybe the next poser software will be "Poser Dragon"!

~A~

Quote - "In 10 years from now???
I"ll take Alyson to dinner. ha-ha-ha-"

o0

~A~

Well apparently according to every post I have read at CG Society that's how it is!

Stuff 'em :). Just because someone uses LightMax or some other complicated app doesn't make them an artist. If anything that makes them a techician not an artist.

A real artist explores and expresses using the tools they have and if theres something that tool can't do to. You go and look at other ways of creating that style or appraoch.

My only comment: so long as using Poser makes you happy, why give two ****'s what other ppl think?

Laurie

I've made the comparison before - it's very much like the disdain you see when C++ programmers talk about Visual Basic. VB democratized programming in much the same way that Poser has for 3D. They talk about all the 'crappy' VB apps and the know nothings that produced them - ignoring the many excellent ones. It also completely ignores the fact that in business,, If something get's the job done, the people paying the bills dont give a hoot what language it was written in. You see the same attitude sometimes in the Linux vs. 'Windoze' blather. 

I think that a lot of it is the fact that some people who have invested a lot of time and/or money learning something have a tendency to resent anything that comes along and renders (no pun intended) the process easier for the average person.  It's less about the actual end result IMO, and more about losing a little of their exclusive status - and maybe in some cases, money :-)

They are just passing the buck. I'm sure painters and pen and paper artists have said that digital artists are not really artists because they let the computer do all the work. So to make themselves feel better, they pick on the hobby artists. We in turn bash Daz. Sh*t rolls down hill.

Subject: I want to know: Does using Poser make you feel like cheats and not real artists?

No.

lmk

Well, next time you go to cvs ask them what they think the oil an canvas crowd thinks of their "art". In many circles there is more than a little of the same attitude where anyone using a computer rather than pigment and brush is concerned! The early animators at Pixar went thru much the same thing from the cell animation painters... Now a days it's passing hard to find a good cell painter who doesn't at least dabble in cg. It's all relative, those schooled and "brought up" in one discipline will alway disparage those using a different one. I expect much the same things were said when artists started using pre ground pigments (and as some who has trained in grinding pigments by hand, let me tell you, it's great fun to learn,. but I'll use stoe purchased pigments for anything but a teach aid, every time!) In the meantime, do what you enjoy. Art is, as they say, in the eye of the beholder, not in the mouth (or in this case fingers) of the critics.

Snobbery comes in many forms. Theirs is about the tools they use to do what they do: the high-end apps. I'd be willing to bet that a large prcentage of them did not plunk down $3500 to $6000 for a copy. Either they are working for a company that has provided them with the programme or... well, I won't go there.

I think it's pretty clear that it's not about Poser per se: it's about process. They see their process - because of the complexity of their applications - as time-consuming and difficult, exacting years of study and experience. They see Poser users load a pre-made figure into the app, slap on some textures and shaders with a double-click, lights:another double-click; render and submit to our gallery for all to admire. And, to be honest, that's what many do. And that's exactly what it looks like, too.

Then there are those who spend some time actually discovering what this marvelous programme has under the hood. They do completely novel, imaginative stuff and create images that rival the best of GC art anywhere.

BUT

At the end of the day, the artists are the artists. They use this particular tool to create images that evoke emotions, set our imaginations spinning, light fires... and it doesn't matter whether they are using Poser or a paintbrush or Crayolas: it's just a medium, to them.

I have an enormous amount of fun with Poser. The amount of learning I've already done is insignificant compared to what there still is to learn about this rich programme and its features. But does this make me more of an artist, this knowledge? No. No more than if I'd chosen Max or Maya or any of the other toys out there that our CGS critics consider essentials to doing "art".

I dont think they disrespect Poser users just because the Poser program itself is cheap and that their aplications are expensive.

If you would show "them" a model you've created in a copy of Hexagon, wings or another "cheap" modelling program im pretty sure of that they would'nt bash you.

If you then showed them a picture containing the same model you've created but rendered in Poser I doubt you would loose their respect, just because of your choise of renderer.

From my own point of view I dont feel comfortable presenting a picture with bought content to public display, calling it my "art",  it just does'nt feel right.

I am a Poser user!

Poser art is mainly kitsch. (quote from Wikipedia)

Kitsch (English pronunciation: /ˈkɪtʃ/, loanword from German) is a form of art that is considered an inferior, tasteless copy of an extant style of art or a worthless imitation of art of recognized value. The concept is associated with the deliberate use of elements that may be thought of as cultural icons[1] while making cheap mass-produced objects that are unoriginal. Kitsch also refers to the types of art that are aesthetically deficient (whether or not being sentimental, glamorous, theatrical, or creative) and that make creative gestures which merely imitate the superficial appearances of art through repeated conventions and formulae. Excessive sentimentality often is associated with the term.

The contemporary definition of kitsch is considered derogatory, denoting works executed to pander to popular demand alone and purely for commercial purposes rather than works created as self-expression by an artist.[2] The term is generally reserved for unsubstantial and gaudy works that are calculated to have popular appeal and are considered pretentious and shallow rather than genuine artistic efforts.[3]

I'll be perfectly honest; yes I kinda feel like I'm cheating and even more so, it frustrates me that I can't make anything I can imagine because I'm limited to using what other people have made and I have purchased. I would trade my 3D skills in a minute to be able to paint or draw.

But, for people like me who can't, using Poser (or DS in my case) is a great way to make artwork that we could not make any other way. As others have said, it's really not important what other people think (especially 3D elitists who frankly, make some of the most lifeless and static imagery around) as long as we enjoy it.   :)

SnowS

Quote - If you would show "them" a model you've created in a copy of Hexagon, wings or another "cheap" modelling program im pretty sure of that they would'nt bash you.

If you then showed them a picture containing the same model you've created but rendered in Poser I doubt you would loose their respect, just because of your choise of renderer.

There are a lot of really amazing artists who couldn't model to save their lives, any more than Picasso would assemble his own brushes. The right to use bought content to create something truly unique is a bit a metaphor for the age we live in. It's not about core generation, but synthesis.

Line from California Suite IIRC:
"How did you write those amazing books?"
"All the words were in the dictionary. i just had to put them together..."

Or something like that...

Quote - Snobbery comes in many forms.

Well. I hate to admit that I don't see abstract art as "real" art, and they do that with a brush and paint. Is Picasso nogt a real artist? Or Andy Warhol with all the Campbell Soup cans he did.

As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So is art. :biggrin:

EDIT: And for the record I can sketch with pencil and paper. I just prefer Poser.

Using Poser as I do these days makes me feel like a puppet maker.

quote:

There are a lot of really amazing artists who couldn't model to save their lives, any more than Picasso would assemble his own brushes

:end quote

Honestly, I dont think that is a fair comparision.

Maybe if Picasso would have bought ten small paintings and put them together to one big painting claiming it as his own :-)

It's really NOT about the tools/content/paint/brushes/canvas/application. Art isn't about the medium, it's about what you say. As EClark mentioned: Andy Warhol didn't make those Campbell soup cans. He said something with them.

Go and do thou likewise.

That reminds me...

I recommend the book "Journeyman - The Art of Chris Moore". It's a long interview interspersed with some absolutely bad-assed artwork - nearly all of it acrylics or inks on various commercial boards.

In that book, a very telling quote comes out, which I think cuts to the crux of the whole thing:

"I've dabbled with a landscaping program called Bryce but it didn't do much for me, becuase it's so recognizable. That's half the problem with using computers, that the programs that you're using can have an influence over the way the thing looks."

...and yes, the man has a point. It is drop-easy most of the time to tell which program did what action on which mesh. Half the time, you'd be hard-pressed to tell if the person posting an image used anything other than a default light set (be it HDRI or not).

I think that this is what the purist types in CG Society yap on about... that much of it looks so much like the others. 

Now mind you, if you can take canned/purchased bits and make something fantastic with it, cool... and I suspect that even the uber-snobs would cough up begrudging respect for technique and execution. 

I believe the main gripe is not what you have or what you use, but what you actually do with it.

Another bit to consider is that asking mesh-wranglers what they think of your render from a bought mesh is sort of like asking a hyper-focused custom car builder what they think of the paint job you did on an otherwise unmodified Hyundai Sonata.  The answer is not going to be quite what you're looking for, yanno? 

/P

The figure creator includes every potentiality of appearance, expression and movement that a Poser user can access to create art via dial spinning. That’s some brush.

Quote - ...and yes, the man has a point. It is drop-easy most of the time to tell which program did what action on which mesh. Half the time, you'd be hard-pressed to tell if the person posting an image used anything other than a default light set (be it HDRI or not).

Point is: is that a point? "Oh, that's acrylic!" As opposed to oils. It's a medium. TBH, if an artist is good, Poser and bought content isn't going to stand out with a "look at me" sign. The artist will have said her piece.

So.
Yep, rendered. Yep, software. Beyond that, could be anything to anyone but the incredibly discerning. And the incredibly forensically discerning would have an issue with Monet: "that technique's been used!" I.e., not original.

Whatever.

I see incredible great art in places one doesn't expect. This includes Poser. No, not mine. Never mine. I'm not an artist. I feel a bit like Erik Satie: he deemed himself a "polyphoner", not a composer. Yet his gymnopédie lives on.

My stuff won't.

I want to add something here about those who create the mesh characters and other figures/creatures/props. The Artists of a different type and scope.

They often, like those of us who cannot create mesh, cannot conceive of an artwork set up. Amazing people who do amazing characters, yet don't have the knack of conceptual art! But they can do the mesh creations we artists buy, and then use to make the art they lack the vision to do! So they create one form, that they can vicariously view in creations they do not have the ability to bring to life in their kind of artistry. There is nothing wrong with this, it is a healthy symbiotic relationship. Some people write but cannot act, others act but could not write a plot to save their lives! And etc....

There is often a reason that many cg mesh modelers create the things we use, and it is not always for income, but for the thrill of seeing them used in artwork! It is one thing to model using any given program. But the goal is always the same, to have it seen and admired by the masses. If it were otherwise no one would sell or give away their creations and many do.

Since college Acrylics have been my medium of choice for art, second only to my photography. I was actually published for a picture and it was my prof who submitted it on my behalf. But I started liking photograghy because even acrylics took too long to dry. At that time I used an SLR camera and had access to the lab to develop as soon as I took the pics. Models are expensive for the kind of art I wanted to do. Poser sort of fills that niche need to have it my way. Plus the possibilities are so much more expanded!!!

So I do not view using these as cheating, or not my own art. If they did not want others to use them, then they would never sell them to us. I have had site mails from vendors who appreciated and loved a concept I came up with. Many have sent me their newest creations free to use in renders to show their potential. It's like designing a beautiful dress and seeing it on a beautiful woman who wears it with style and grace. What greater compliment is there?

So in turn, I fail to see why we should feel like we would be cheating or not creating real art using these meshes. We are using them for the reason they were created, as a tool and a means to accomplish a beautiful result. that is both a tribute to our talent and those who do these products too.

Now that I have said that I guess the same does apply to poser too!!!

Ariana

Penguinisto, what you say has a lot of merit to it, and is also well stated. But you also allow for the possibilities of great successes too! Unlike the comments and threads I viewed at CGS.

I see so much well done work here, and elsewhere with poser.... as well as other apps. So I was I think hurt by anyone denigrating anyone's creative efforts, because art in all forms is important to society and life in general. And I se sometimes critiques of new artists everywhere that discourages them from trying, learning or sharing. And that saddens me. 

What makes an artist is not necessarily producing mass work, it can really be that one perfect cg piece, or photo, or painting. One great piece is all it takes to be noteworthy in the scheme of things.

Good nite and thank you all for restoring my faith.
Ariana

Link from the front page at GC Society:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=650475&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=cgchoice&utm_term=650475

The defence rests.

Quote - Link from the front page at GC Society:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=650475&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=cgchoice&utm_term=650475

The defence rests.

Isn't DigitalMuse Seva? Beautiful piece. Here is the one I was saying looked to me like a V3! poser was not listed, but I know a V3 when I see one. I think it is fairly obvious.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=137&t=39545

Ariana

Yep... you guessed-er Chester. They can preach purism and claim they don't use anything but their own vert-pushes, but yeah, a V3/V4/TY2 is gonna creep in, no credit given. All those purist societies are just so much hot air. Safe to ignore, based on the gallery facts.

Now, back to your creativity!! I've been playing with dynamic cloth. Yes, this is V4. No, the background isn't mine. No, this is definitely NOT art. It's just me having fun in Blender making dynamic cloth mesh and making it all work in the cloth room:

...but, heaps of fun, anyway.

ETA: should I offer this as a freebie? Worth it, or no? Both items are smart-propped to V4. Not sure if that makes a difference.

With regards to opening question: Nope, I feel very fine artistically, using Poser.

Quote - Yep... you guessed-er Chester. They can preach purism and claim they don't use anything but their own vert-pushes, but yeah, a V3/V4/TY2 is gonna creep in, no credit given. All those purist societies are just so much hot air. Safe to ignore, based on the gallery facts.

Now, back to your creativity!! I've been playing with dynamic cloth. Yes, this is V4. No, the background isn't mine. No, this is definitely NOT art. It's just me having fun in Blender making dynamic cloth mesh and making it all work in the cloth room:

...but, heaps of fun, anyway.

ETA: should I offer this as a freebie? Worth it, or no? Both items are smart-propped to V4. Not sure if that makes a difference.

Shoot! I love this! I would definitely make it MP item! The vinyl look is awesome too. I like the length and the cout on the hips. You have got some nice work here! I wish Mesh were my forte, but sadly like HTML and CSS... it is greek to me! :)

Nice render too, what render engine do you use... is this poser? If so what lights do you use? Site mail me the render settings too! (*please...!) I use poser 7 and PP2010, soon PP2012!

HugZ!
Ariana