Quote - With regards to opening question: Nope, I feel very fine artistically, using Poser.

So do I now. I was only shocked and surprised at the general feeling over there about poser. At this point, since my art sells, and i love poser, why worry... it is after all a free choice what you use. :)

HugZ!
Ariana

sorry, but this seems to me like another "but I DO art, too!!!" stomps with feet thread.

but in case it isn't, maybe you can step back from your work in a quite moment and ask yourself some questions:

• if you have a picture in your mind, can you bring it - exactly as envisioned - on your monitor?

• do your pictures look some way similar to all the other Poser stuff?

• do characters in your work look like real, living persons, and not like the thousandth incarnation of V4/M4?

• is there something unique in it, that people can't find elsewhere?

• you've been at CGS, so, can you do something of a quality that would make it into their choice gallery?

Poser's problem is, it works only with premade stuff - stuff that's been sold - and shown - a thousand times. that limits it's use to some point. if you can't get the prop you need - and can't make it yourself - you're screwed. if you want to show a certain type of dress, but can't find it in the market - you can forget it. want to put a stunning landscape in the background? with Poser, well....

Point is, art is something that comes from your mind and soul, not from market resources. In that way Poser is limited, and maybe that's what the so called "elitists" refer to. 

(BTW, your "V3" is a 2D drawing, have a look at the artist's website to see how he works ;) :http://www.robertocampus.com/2007/06/photoshop-tutorial-wonder-woman-pin-up-digital-painting/) 

Quote - My only comment: so long as using Poser makes you happy, why give two ****'s what other ppl think?

Laurie

Nice one Laurie!

Quote - Poser's problem is, it works only with premade stuff - stuff that's been sold - and shown - a thousand times. that limits it's use to some point.

Um, no. I'm making things that have never been sold or shown. Poser allows the artist to use whatever she wants to, including textures, mesh and shaders she develops herself. Only the point-and-click crowd limit themselves to the marketplace/freebies stuff.

I wouldn't consider the imagination of Poser creativity limited or limiting. It's bigger than you can conceive of. Or particularly want to, based on your remarks.

And let's not even get into those that do a whole lot of overpainting and hair painting and clothe painting..those things are not "premade"....and all of that takes a lot of practice and work.

To create art in any digital space you still have to know the same things that traditional artists need to know...composition, lighting, the human or animal body that you are working with.  Without those things, without that knowledge you have a render, not a piece of art.

I was talking the other day to someone about art, and for me, the way I see it, rules are the death of creativity.  Why should anyone put limits on imagination which is what stirs our creativity.  No one is going to tell me what medium I can or cannot use in order to "be an artist".  I am an artist,  I sell art, I have showings, I do bookcovers.  I think that qualifies me as a professional.  There are some excellent artists that will never sell anything because they don't want to, doesn't make them less of an artist,  I think we do ourselves an injustice when we call Poser a "hobbyist" program.  If those that use it feel that way, why should we be surprised when those that don't downgrade it and call it something that a professional would never use?  It is a means to an end that is all. 

I do not do "computer generated art" my computer does not generate anything, I have a software program that renders....I really dislike that term....sounds like there is a make art button on my computer.  Last time I checked there wasn't, if someone has one, please share LOL!!!

We that use the digital medium struggle with the same thing that photographers did back in the day :)  Just like those that took up acrylics were not respected by those that used oils. 

I use Poser, they don't like it you all know what they can kiss :)

Keep creating, don't feel guilty or your muse will leave you :) Create beautiful artwork or just have fun :)

CG Society is well,those that have been there know what some of them are...but they are everywhere in every community.

Actually, I kind of expect a sudden explosion of anti-Poserism.

Why?

Latest version: we finally get weightmapping to add to the existing rigging options. One of the biggest betrayers of poseritis....joint issues....have just been potentially eliminated (and yes, you will see those who just use them, and those who use and tweak, then create new, to get the effects they want. And considering some of the mutterings Diogenes aka Phantom3d has been making, we might be seeing some incredible things in facial rigging before long. Hopefully some insane geek who knows Python 2.7 and the WX front end gets inspired to create the kind of interconnecting controller that does some of the tricks that Maya's does, to allow ganging of those potential new bones and maps into coherent facial animation.....)

We get true SSS. Use it correctly, and no more plastic skin look. Things like marble, plastic, granite, some kinds of fabric become possible (and texture makers are going to have to learn to stop burning in specular highlights, as with true SSS the lighting itself and a specular mask are all you need....and artificial highlights look =bad= when used. But Bagginsbill is working on some tricks, apparently). Can't do optically correct obsidian due to its effect being refraction and density changes, but oh well.

With just those two features, the potential for output quality has shot up. Considerably. Yes, there is a learning curve; and those who won't budge past P4 level functionality are out of luck. But more and more people are finally dipping into the dynamics end of things (and as the new 2012 version is fully 64 bit and multithreaded, speed is less of an issue).

More importantly, I think this will shift the focus from the two main blasphemies of poseritis to the more subtle ones of lighting and compostion, where a lot of the magic of CG imagery occurs. (yes, I know that we have lots of people who can't even be bothered to focus the eyes properly; I'm not talking about them, but the folks who have that image in their heads and have chosen this medium to get it out).

Silly idea? Look at Vue. Version 10 is about to come out. Version 4 was considered nothing more than a 2 bit Bryce wannabe in the day. Then they added Mover; suddenly there was a way to fly over your terrains, as Philippe Bouyer showed. And you could suddenly use Poser as the animation plugin, and natively import a pz2 file. Vue pro added the ability to have a renderfarm....and actual animation was suddenly quite possible (having the wind effects in there was inspired). Then they added instancing, and you could create forests. Then continents. Then entire planets. ILM noticed the quality possible, and suddenly that Bryce wannabe became a professional level application. Ask Philippe if he is an artist, he will say he is a skilled technician; which is true. Working any CG program is an excersice in technology, not art....something that gets forgotten over at Certain Other Places. The 'A' word comes into it when you apply those techniques.

Poser will never be real competition for the animation portion of a Hollywood level pipeline. However, as Tim Vining has shown, it can hold its own in a one man studio environment (and imagine what Aurora would have been if he'd had weightmapping from the get-go). It also still has its function as an artist's Woodie; or the nude model you simply lack the cash and space to hire. Is there too much sameness in Poser renders? Unfortunately, as there are too many who either can not or do not use the tools to their capacity (take a furniture set you buy; change the textures slightly, as light ages finishes depending on exposure and the finish. Dropping the global 'chair' texture and using one for each chair, smaller and tone shifted to allow for varied aging, and suddenly that 'eveyone uses this prop' set isn't quite so common. Add unique bump or displacement maps, and each chair suddenly has a personality, as one was the cat's favorite post; one was gnawed by rugrat #1 instead of a teething ring. One has scars from all the metal #2 daughter has attached to her jeans, etc. All of that can also be done strictly with shaders and the same reduced, bland base texture). CG is, and always has been, nothing but sheer trickery. The art is in making the tricks real enough that the viewer is so busy going 'woooooww' that they forget all they have picked up about the process. Most here could take the forest scene in 'Avatar' and reduce it to its component CG elements and techniques....and have a mess of formulae and mesh that has no relationship to 'art'. Put it back together, and you have that alien world at night. Same bits and pieces, but the synergy creates the image...and it it creates emotion, it has entered the realm of art.....

Quote - Poser's problem is, it works only with premade stuff - stuff that's been sold - and shown - a thousand times. that limits it's use to some point. if you can't get the prop you need - and can't make it yourself - you're screwed. if you want to show a certain type of dress, but can't find it in the market - you can forget it. want to put a stunning landscape in the background? with Poser, well....

Point is, art is something that comes from your mind and soul, not from market resources. In that way Poser is limited, and maybe that's what the so called "elitists" refer to. 

 

Ahh, so then you're saying that if unless a person does make their own paint, oils, brush, and canvas instead of going to the nearest art store to buy supplies, you know the "pre-made stuff" from market resources, then they're not really creating art. Gotcha.

Poser is a tool. Even says so right there on the box, "Figure Design Tool". It's no different from the paint, brushes and pencils or the hammer and chisels you buy to create with.

I'm sure painters and pen and paper artists have said that digital artists are not really artists because they let the computer do all the work.

Yep and I've experienced that more than once when trying to get work into local gallerys.

Yet I frequently see paintings in these places where the artist has clearly drawn over a photo. or photos that scream bad photoshop filter.

I reckon it's because as mckenzie rightly comments about status and they don't like  anyone to get into their space or steal their glory.

Personally I think thats a silly approach to take, by sharing and discussing techniques and ideas we all learn more as artists.

sorry, but this seems to me like another "but I DO art, too!!!" stomps with feet thread.

*BTW, YES I do art and have a nice diploma to prove that (Hubby thinks it looks good on the wall too!) stomps foot just because I can.

but in case it isn't, maybe you can step back from your work in a quite moment and ask yourself some questions:

• if you have a picture in your mind, can you bring it - exactly as envisioned - on your monitor?

Yes, because I can paint and create in photoshop anything not immediately available in mesh, blend it seamlessly and make you think it was always a part of the render. My imagination is functioning at full capacity, and more.

• do your pictures look some way similar to all the other Poser stuff?

**Jeez! Does a disney cartoon look like a disney cartoon? What sort of criteria is that? But to answer you,  NO, I have a unique style, and I work hard to remove the look of anything but my work.
**

• do characters in your work look like real, living persons, and not like the thousandth incarnation of V4/M4?

**Excuse me but not all art has to look "real". There is Frazetta style, Vargas style, Sue Dawes style, well you get where I am going  (*hopefully). Who proclaimed that poser had to be real life realistic? My style is more of Fantasy, and Sci-Fi. Not a lot of REAL there. Unless that is my intention, then yes it looks real. I am not afraid to ask other artists who have beaten the poser look what they do. I am always learning new tricks and techniques.
**

• is there something unique in it, that people can't find elsewhere?

*I actually hate cutesy fairies, but how many of those have saturated every type of market there is? Does it make fairies sell less? NO! Especially if they are pink or purple. It is not weither it can be found elsewhere, it is weither your work makes people take notice and admire or buy. (really stupid question...)

• you've been at CGS, so, can you do something of a quality that would make it into their choice gallery?

*Well that depends on several factors. A) Would it even get a fair shake if it was a poser composition? B) How political and clique driven is the site? C) Why would being in the choice gallery benefit my needs and purposes? Lastly, whose approval is more important (something I learned from this thread) my own, or theirs?

Poser's problem is, it works only with premade stuff - stuff that's been sold - and shown - a thousand times. that limits it's use to some point. if you can't get the prop you need - and can't make it yourself - you're screwed. if you want to show a certain type of dress, but can't find it in the market - you can forget it. want to put a stunning landscape in the background? with Poser, well....

One question. Do you understand the advantages of combining postwork/stock photos and imported backgrounds in and with poser? Something that the majority of pros do in any production house. You give the impression that by using poser, you are not allowed to use all the other advantages that the pros use with no quams. **I have PS'd a dress on a model, and then painted the tweaks into it. Amazing what you can do if you think outside of just the program. If it is good enough for the pros, why should I not also use those resources?
**

Point is, art is something that comes from your mind and soul, not from market resources. In that way Poser is limited, and maybe that's what the so called "elitists" refer to.

Again, you come off like because you purchase a resource you lack any ability to create viable art, like those others in the high end costly programs, because poser user's in general lack that certain something  "...that comes from your mind and soul". WOW! o0 NOW I understand!

(BTW, your "V3" is a 2D drawing, have a look at the artist's website to see how he works ;) :http://www.robertocampus.com/2007/06/photoshop-tutorial-wonder-woman-pin-up-digital-painting/)

That image is a definite V3. I looked at the other work that he does, and BTW, his example (the robot/spacesuited figure) was drawn by someone else not him! He just did the coloring. Nicely, but he still used someone else's creation (Joe Ng) and called it his own work. http://www.robertocampus.com/2007/09/photoshop-tutorial-bioshock-videogame-digital-painting/#more-54. **  So so much for the "You have to create every element" theory of those at CGS. Or any other elitists who think "...if you did not build it from the ground up..."

Ariana

response in bold only to differentiate the two parties, not shouting by any means. *stomps foot.... :P

Oh BTW... Well said Sparky and DaleB!

Ariana

If you are interested in seeing a creation of mine in PS, look here at the little dragon in the jar... http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2181589&user_id=372461&np&np I created this little snippet for my use in magic renders. The original is not pink tone, but yellowish. This was added in postwork after the render.

No biggie, but I love it just the same.

Ariana

Norman Rockwell did not consider himself an artist. He considered himself an illustrator. Basically, that is what I do. I create images that best capture what I want. If you don't think it's art, well, neither do I. If you think it is, well, that's just your opinion . I posted a couple images earlier, but there was little interest, so I haven't posted here in a while. Might eventually.

http://www.robertocampus.com/2007/05/tutorial-goddess-painting-the-female-body/

not sure what the issue is with the image,he has a tutorial on his site about it and clearly mentions Poser,The reason it isn't listed in 'software used' at cgs is because the thread the image is posted in is 8 years old and I don't think the site had that feature back then.

There are several images in cgchoice gallery that show Poser as the app used.

I often see this argument of some feeling looked down upon by CGS members & after nearly 10 years of watching I believe the idea is a myth created by some Poser users.I've seen many posts by cgs mods stating they realy don't care what you use,it's the quality of your final product that counts .there are a great deal of images rejected from the CGS galleries,none of which are rejected based on the softare used.

So just as there's bound to be a few dicks on these forums talking other peoples apps down you should also expect a few at cgs talking them down too..but that doesn't mean the whole site should be tarred with that brush.and surely doesnt mean people should refer to cgs members as 'snobs' or 'elitists'

Cheers

Stefan

Great Point Stonemason.

"it's the quality of your final product that counts"

this this this a thousand times this.

and how many are putting poser down in the example given that starts this thread? now take that number... and compare it to how many use the site.... you'll see it's a tiny number... not worth worrying about unless you want everyone on the face of the planet to love your work.....

I found at CGS that its the wannabe's that get most upset at Poser and the real pros who will admit privately that anything that speeds things up will help make more of a profit.

There are some gripes about the quality of models and textures which may be true for top grade commercial work but no one I know models a complete new character from scratch very often.

stonemason is an excellent mesh maker whose art blows away just about anything from Poser or any other app for that matter.

One thing I did see Stephan was a mod say there was no place for poser, a poser forum or the rest on CGS. Truly that was a big part of this post. They even have a survey about how lame poser users are! 67% said they were very lame. I would post a SS but it may be against RO policy to do so. Strange that when I searched the threads that were derogatory this came up>

Solr service not responding.

So when I encounter it again, I will post the link or SS it and site mail that over to you.

Hey you are exactly the right person to ask as well!

Stephan, how do you feel about people who buy your products (*gads I own several!) and use them in creations they then consider to be their own art works? Does this upset you? Do you feel a certain sense of gratification when someone does your meshes justice? I would love to hear your input as you are a very prominent pillar of the poser community and just happens to be one of the best modeler's out here as well.

Thank you....
Ariana

He might be the best scene maker/artist as well. Let's not forget that. 

You have to take the source into consideration. Most of the members there spent a ton of money learning to model, so, yeah, they get snippy about pre-made models. And the ones who model human firgures are among the most critical. I've seen huge flames about eyelashes and what the model is wearing. 

That being said, certain segments don't hesitate for a moment to use purchased models to speed up production, especially ArchViz. I can't remember seeing any bad feedback on those images concerning canned meshes, even though the models are very well known.  ArchViz also depends heavily on pre-made light setups, shared and purchased textures, and standardized render settings. 

Matte painters certainly don't worry about using Photo Shop filters, either.  

So why the double standard? Somehow Poser has the reputation for being a toy for amateurs, even though we've all seen commercials done with Poser. It also is tied down by association with the more lurid genre seen at other sites. And it is true, most commercial firms don't include Poser in their pipeline, so it's seen as unnecessary.

Take solace in the knowlege that you're doing the work of a small army when you create a Poser scene. You're the concept artist, modeler, rigger, texture guy, lighting expert, and render team. You sub-contract some of it out to various stores.  Same thing (but cheaper) as hiring all those people for the job. 

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. That's all I have to say about the CG Society.

It's all very well people criticising Poser users - but what makes an artist? I can't draw for toffee, can't paint, and the only artistic skill I have is calligraphy (and that's now not as good as it was because of arthritic fingers).

Is art just the ability to wield a paintbrush or chisel? What about the imagination that turns a plain canvas into a field of glowing flowers or whatever?

I admire greatly the people (like Vallejo in fantasy art, for example), who produce great images with their own native talent and ability - but I also admire many here who use computers and digital applications to produce their fantasy images or paintings (don't forget Painter). And what about the people who create the "dolls" we use in Poser, using 3d software? They have great imagination, patience and the skills to create their 3d models.

The computer enables me to turn my ideas into images; are these images "art", and am I an "artist"? The purists would say no to both questions and some art groups will not exhibit "digital paintings". What I do is take the "dolls" and other objects that other people have created (and which I cannot create for myself) and use them in images which I create. Whether or not they would count the final result I produce as worthy of praise as artistic I would suggest to the purists and others that without the imagination that dreams up a picture in the first place no image worthy to be called art would ever reach canvas or paper.

Where my "art" differs from that of those who mock Poser is in the fact that I depend on many many other people for the products I use in my images; on those who created the computer, the internet, the hard discs, printers, scanners, on those who wrote the applications such as Poser and Photoshop, on those here who create the objects, the props, "dolls", clothes, and - well, on people without whom none of my images could exist outside my head.

I don't say I create "art"; but judging by the kind comments my creations attract there are people here who find my offerings artistic.

And the purists should also consider the fact that many people, who are neither art critics nor artists in their sense of the word, do not think much of some of the "artistic" offerings to be found in our great national galleries. I don't think I need enumerate some of the sillier of those offerings.

If you can do it all by hand, without anything more than a pot or two of paint, a canvas and a set of brushes, good for you; but if you can't, then why should you be sneered at for using whatever tools are at hand that you can use?

First, I wouldn't really call myself an "artist" nomatter what medium I used..  "Artist" sounds way too pretentious..

And I have to say there are plenty of people who use poser as a "open - load char- render" instant art maker.. Which is unfortunate, but hey, if it makes them happy that's great..

There are also quite alot of very creative people who use poser as something more than that.

As others have said, Poser is a tool.. what you do with it is up to you..

Besides, I've seen plenty of "modelers" who make really poor "artistic" images..and I've seen poser users make amazing stuff..  being a Modeler doesn't automatically make you a better "Artist".. it just makes you a modeler

I dont regard myself as an 'artist'  so I use Poser because its fairly technical in creating a scene. That said you do need to learn about composition and lighting to make a 'good' picture 'great'. Being able to paint inside the lines also helps in making your own textures even if its a small change to something purchased.

I often get to a stage of saying, this is as close as I can get to my idea with the models and textures I have, where those with better skills could get exactly what they want.  That may be a completely valid point at CG Society but I know several modellers who dont texture, and several texture artists who dont model so a Poser user who does a bit of everything is slightly ahead when working by himself.

artNoun/ärt/

1. The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

2. Works produced by such skill and imagination.

By definition, almost every image we make is considered art. I say "almost" because I'm taking into consideration model test renders etc. It's not how you get there that matters, it's all in the end result.

Quote - Besides, I've seen plenty of "modelers" who make really poor "artistic" images..and I've seen poser users make amazing stuff..  being a Modeler doesn't automatically make you a better "Artist".. it just makes you a modeler

I consider modeling is an art in and of itself, and agree with you, just cuz you can model, it doesn't mean you can make an awesome image.

Quote -  "Oh, that's acrylic!" As opposed to oils. It's a medium.

Unlike most media, computers are a bit too predictable - especially if you get lazy about it. That was his point, and IMHO it's a very solid one. 

For evidence, I point you to the acronym "NVIATWAS". 

For most other media, you actually have to do something about it... using 'defaults' in other media will get you nowhere - not even passable. Computers make it a bit easier.

BTW, this includes modern photography, where the difference between a typical crappy tourist shot and a sheer masterpiece is a matter of seconds, plus an attentive eye on composition, lighting, lens settings, shutter speed, focus, and aperture. 

Quote - I see incredible great art in places one doesn't expect. This includes Poser. 

Same deal here. However, the idea is to rise above the mundane, and to push the tools well beyond what it can do. that is what makes it stand out as art. This is exactly the same thing Mr. Moore was pointing towards.

Quote - > Quote -  "Oh, that's acrylic!" As opposed to oils. It's a medium.

Unlike most media, computers are a bit too predictable - especially if you get lazy about it. That was his point, and IMHO it's a very solid one. 

For evidence, I point you to the acronym "NVIATWAS". 

For most other media, you actually have to do something about it... using 'defaults' in other media will get you nowhere - not even passable. Computers make it a bit easier.

BTW, this includes modern photography, where the difference between a typical crappy tourist shot and a sheer masterpiece is a matter of seconds, plus an attentive eye on composition, lighting, lens settings, shutter speed, focus, and aperture. 

Quote - I see incredible great art in places one doesn't expect. This includes Poser. 

Same deal here. However, the idea is to rise above the mundane, and to push the tools well beyond what it can do. that is what makes it stand out as art. This is exactly the same thing Mr. Moore was pointing towards.

Dale B addressed this pithily:

"Tools are just that: tools. Yes, 90% of Poser output is utter shit. So is 90% of Maya, Max, Modo, Lightwave, etc. The only difference is that 'big app users'  bury their turds in the backyard and pretend they never existed. As a hobbyist market, Poserites tend to throw theirs out in the street and preen. It's all in how you look at it and what you are trying to do."

Which is what those higher-end CG artists see and wonder: "why do they think this is show-worthy?" Fair enough.

Quote - Penguinisto, what you say has a lot of merit to it, and is also well stated. But you also allow for the possibilities of great successes too!

One must always allow for success.

Downtown here in PDX, we have a bit of a secret artistic weapon - real Monet paintings - including a few that I think you would find to be instantly recognizeable. 

In his day, every painter and his dog fought to make paintings as eye-bleedingly real as possible. Monet decided to give them a great big artisitc middle finger. His little technique took off. 

Even better example from a similar time: Paul Gauguin. They all had a good hard laugh at his use of garish color to express tropical scenery and people - few folks bothered to buy a painting from him. Now try buying one without having a titanic bank account balance to back up the purchase...

Monet's tool was artificial near-sightedness. Gauguin had a brain that decided to use color to express a story and shove your eyes' attention where he wants it to go, even if the colors weren't true to life.

Here's the funny part - they all used pretty much the same tools. 

Quote - So I was I think hurt by anyone denigrating anyone's creative efforts, because art in all forms is important to society and life in general. And I se sometimes critiques of new artists everywhere that discourages them from trying, learning or sharing. And that saddens me.  

nihil novi sub sole

I have some bad news for you... if you think what you see today is vicious, you ought to have a gander at what art critics back in 18th and 19th century France were capable of. Those ancient mofos started their day by eating a slice of toast, buttered on both sides with the souls of a promising new artist or two. 

It is, after all, a vicious little profession dominated by vicious little people, no? 

In case you're curious, the latin phrase means: "There is nothing new under the sun". It came out of the Bible, specifically Ecclesiastes 1:9. Basically, my wee paragraph says the same thing. :)

/P

Quote -
Dale B addressed this pithily:

"Tools are just that: tools. 

True, but his statement was incomplete... specifically, he forgot to ask a question: are these tools a means to an end, or are they crutches which are leaned on? 

I would add another: Do you use the tools, or do the tools use you? If you are the master, the results will be art. If you are the servant, then the results will be shit.

Quote - One thing I did see Stefan was a mod say there was no place for poser, a poser forum or the rest on CGS.

Well your thread at cgs has two replys from mods today,one of which says he uses Poser,the other quoting in agreement what someone else said: quality is what they want and that isn't defined by the software.

I've seen requests for a Poser forum at cgs and the reasons given for not having one are based on the fact there aren't enough Poser users at cgs to justify it.it's the same reason there's no Houdini or Flame forums at Renderosity,there simply isn't the userbase to make that worthwhile.

Quote - Stephan, how do you feel about people who buy your products (*gads I own several!) and use them in creations they then consider to be their own art works? Does this upset you? Do you feel a certain sense of gratification when someone does your meshes justice? I would love to hear your input as you are a very prominent pillar of the poser community and just happens to be one of the best modeler's out here as well..

I'm incredibly grateful for anybody buying my products as it puts food on my table.I may not like a lot of the images people make but that's all par for the course.its commercial content and no credit is required.in fact I find it quite cheesy seeing the long shopping lists people post under their images.as long as they aren't 'sharing' my content then I don't really care what people do with it.

at the end of the day I've found CGS to be a great place to grow your skills and get feedback that helps you grow(if you want it),I've learnt alot from CGS,I've also had a vast amount of work offers come through CGS front page plugs,Renderosity galleries on the otherhand I've found are more for people to get praise just for posting an image,I regard it as being mainly a hobbiest gallery.

Cheers

Stefan

Quote - "Does using Poser make you feel like cheats and not real artists?"

 Hell yeah... I just love render naked women... bugger the artistry... oh sorry... I thought you were talking about people with no creativity with a medium.

I'll go stick my head in a bucket of water now. 

dont drown yourself Kiwi ... :D xx

I work as a artist/poser content creator (characters etc) that helps pay the bills in my house.... that includes comissions and selling here and at daz .... it has taken me years to learn poser and im sure im still learning it.

Quote - > Quote -

Dale B addressed this pithily:

"Tools are just that: tools. 

True, but his statement was incomplete... specifically, he forgot to ask a question: are these tools a means to an end, or are they crutches which are leaned on? 

 

I would add another: Do you use the tools, or do the tools use you? If you are the master, the results will be art. If you are the servant, then the results will be shit.

You should have that last one put on T-shirts, Peng, as it is quite true. So. When do you think we'll get into the having a tool vs. being a tool conversation?  8P

Quote - BTW, YES I do art and have a nice diploma to prove that (*Hubby thinks it looks good on the wall too!) stomps foot just because I can.

sigh - yeah, right, I should have known it. > Quote -

http://www.robertocampus.com/2007/05/tutorial-goddess-painting-the-female-body/
not sure what the issue is with the image,he has a tutorial on his site about it and clearly mentions Poser,The reason it isn't listed in 'software used' at cgs is because the thread the image is posted in is 8 years old and I don't think the site had that feature back then.

I wouldn't count that as a Poser image, because Poser's not the main tool here, it's just used as a reference like a photo or manikin, and the real - artistic, if you will - work is done in 2D. In fact - wasn't that was Poser was intended in the first place? :) > Quote -

I've seen requests for a Poser forum at cgs and the reasons given for not having one are based on the fact there aren't enough Poser users at cgs to justify it.it's the same reason there's no Houdini or Flame forums at Renderosity,there simply isn't the userbase to make that worthwhile.

Oh, I doubt that. I bet, there's a lot of Poser users registered at CGS. :D I remember being that an issue quite a long while back and the sub-tone was not very Poser-friendly. IIRC, the main fear was getting flooded with NVIATWASs. though this might (and should) have changed by now. At least Poser's allowed even in the challenges now. ;)

Quote - at the end of the day I've found CGS to be a great place to grow your skills and get feedback that helps you grow(if you want it),I've learnt alot from CGS,I've also had a vast amount of work offers come through CGS front page plugs

I second that.
from the more serious people there (people like yourself, leigh, ortiz or stahlberg and others) I've never read a derogative reply. They always try to be helpful and informative. In fact I had a very informative, though short discussion with Steven Stahlberg about one of my (-gasp-) Poser images a while ago. 8)

And for the Poser bashers at CGS - there are at least as many Poser fanatics out there and they're not a bit better. :P

I refrain from posting work at CGS, because in the end I've nothing more to refer to as a long list of ready made stuff plus postwork, composition and lighting. Even if I add some effort done in Vue, compared to the work and originality others bring in, I'd simply feel a little embarrassed. And I'm no artist anyway. 

And I'm no artist, either.

When I quoted Dale B, it was this remark I found most inspirational:

" Yes, 90% of Poser output is utter shit. So is 90% of Maya, Max, Modo, Lightwave, etc. The only difference is that 'big app users'  bury their turds in the backyard and pretend they never existed."

...which I guess wasn't clear. Poser users buy this programme, start doing stuff on it, are so impressed with what they've done they want to show it off, never realising that in the really big CG world, it's utter rubbish. Perhaps we should hold DA and Rendo responsible for offering a place to display their little "accomplishment"? instead of saying: "take that crap down! what do you want to do, give Poser a bad name? People look at this stuff!"

Aww, c'mon, really? If some poor bored schmoes from CG Society have nothing better to do than to come over and look at "Poser Art" critically - well, let's keep it in perspective. Consider the "artist". Consider the training. Consider the fact that to tar all creation using this application with the same brush is idiotic.

Quote - bury their turds in the backyard and pretend they never existed.

I wished that would be a tradition in the Poserverse, too ...  :biggrin:

If someone looks at it, and loves it, or hates it, or feels indifferent to it then that's art. How you get there is always going to be someone elses problem for some reason.

Every "artist" in the world wanted to beat Rob Ross to death with a can of paint for revealing how to slap together hotel auction quality landscapes with a house brush and package it up and make millions. Jealously at it's finest.

Hey now! I thought Bob Ross was the shiz back in the day (granted I was a literal kid at the time, but damn it was cool! :) )

IIRC, he spent most of his time working in the PBS arena, doing the '70s artwork schtick. 

Now the guy I want to beat to death with a can of paint (err, right after I shake his hand for beong so damned clever about it) is the guy who invented the velvet paintings - especially the one who did those Mexican kids with the really big eyes that spooked the unholy shit out me as a little kid. >:(

And how about this: Who elevated art to a higher level than craftsmanship? There is nothing wrong with being a craftsman (or -woman).

@Penguinisto
Anything with clowns = nightmares. Especially when they have holes in their shoes or they are crying with a dead flower or cradling something in their basement that they forgot to feed and left chained down there.

@NanetteTredoux
What defines a higher lever of craftsmanship? I went to school with professors who hated the super realists for doing what they claimed a dentist could do, yet they exalted artists who I thought did stuff a child would have been disappointed in if they did it. I've known people who write off DiVinci and pedestrian and celebrate some juvenile iconoclast photographer as the most significant talent in history.

Personally I’d rather watch an elephant paint an elephant.

"I don't know much about art, but I know what I like."

Quote - > Quote - bury their turds in the backyard and pretend they never existed.

I wished that would be a tradition in the Poserverse, too ...  :biggrin:

On the other hand, when you have a 'holier than thou' (in any field, btw), and you manage to find one or more of their cow cookies to wave about.......

The Bryce reflecting ball over water....

NVIATWAS....

The 3DS cup.....

The utterly nondescript rolling hill ecosystem in Vue..... 

all done by the vast majority at least once. And often far too many times.

Seriously, one of the issues with the Poserverse is the persistance in trying to appease users across =six= versions now. Sooner or later the P4 compatibility will have to go, or there is going to be a split in the Poser fanbase between those who are content with plastic skinnned NVIATWAS and those who have access to the kinds of tools the upcoming version has....and the potential to use those tools to generate output that in many ways can compete with the bigger boys. Those who have beta'd the new Poser are jazzed, in a way I haven't really seen since P4 first came out with transmaps, and a bug in the code birthed conforming clothing. And when the geeks are jazzed, new ideas and concepts get implemented. But this time you -have- to have the new tool set to use them.

Quote -  Sooner or later the P4 compatibility will have to go, or there is going to be a split in the Poser fanbase between those who are content with plastic skinnned NVIATWAS and those who have access to the kinds of tools the upcoming version has....and the potential to use those tools to generate output that in many ways can compete with the bigger boys.

Oh, I'm very certain that you can crank out a plastic-skinned NVIATWAS with even the latest version of Poser, and the one after that, and the one after that...

(I guess what I'm trying to say is, It ain't the tool that's causing 'em per se...)

Quote - Those who have beta'd the new Poser are jazzed, in a way I haven't really seen since P4 first came out with transmaps, and a bug in the code birthed conforming clothing. And when the geeks are jazzed, new ideas and concepts get implemented.

I'm certain they are.  Now, how many of them are rank newbies with no concept of composition, lighting, textures.... ? There you will find your proof: When a rank newbie has to cough up some skill in the art section of his/her brain before it'll even render, then we can call it proven that the tool makes the difference. :)

I guess what I'm getting at is, the art itself doesn't require massive, fancy tools to get it done. It requires something that you just cannot find outside of the individual's little 3-lb universe: creativity, insight, an eye for color and framing, a passion to tell a story... things you just cannot put into code.

Referring back to Chris Moore - you use the tool, but not rely on it.

Quote -  But this time you -have- to have the new tool set to use them.

Not necessarily. :p

Amazing, shrinking, late night infomercial, weight loss scam, Vicky doesn't need fancy tools. Slip on your sidewalk Mike as presented by shyster trying to bankrupt you doesn't need GC, IDL, weight mapped goodness. Mike and Vicky making the beast with two backs on a 3D pr0n site might benefit from advanced gee gaws, but the lack thereof doesn't seem to keep fapping America from laying down their coin to gawk. And those are all things thar are actually making money. On a higher-minded, more refined plane, a few people were making good, even pretty darned great 'art,' long before the anyone had the idea of making Poser out of a DeLorean.

The genesis of these age old controversies isn't six different versions of Poser or Poser vs. Max/Lightwave/C4D/Maya/Blender et al nauseum. It is the 1,000+ reasons, motivations, lusts, justifications etc. that people have for using any of the former AND the fact that a few can never seem to reconcile themselves to that without getting in their dig/zinger/insult/cheap shot/'enlightened criticism'/ex cathedra pronouncement of God's will for the universe.

OK, I just checked my post at CGS... I really am steamed. I wanted to ask a question in a neutral place about weight mapping. But that was before I found out about poser sucking and such over there. Now I am even more angry, because strangely they think I came there to be validated?! o0 No I came to ask a technical question and was curious.

I even now, don't understand what the issue with poser and purchased models is! They buy them! Just from TurboSquid and other places like that and even tho they aren't people, they are props. Still the same thing tho.

I do appreciate the lively intercourse we generated here tho!

I create and sell at mainly conventions and commisioned pieces. I never post my best, because generally there is this rule on LE's in California, so I have to keep them private to protect the consumer. But that isn't my point. If I make something, and it sells, I do so by using a model I buy and creating a setting unique unto the piece, I don't "take it out of the box" render as is and just stick it on a page! Which is how any of us who do art do it. So why if we can sell the finished resulting render, did we not create? Why is it necessary to even defend the work?

But it gets better too... I am from now on, never going to second guess my work. Because anytime I feel unsure, I know there is a whole community just waiting to rip it to shreds... based on the program alone. So what have I got to lose!!! :D

I have to nap, but I just bought Maddilerium's new character, and I can't wait to do her justice!

thank you all... and good nite!
HugZ!
Ariana

I don't understand this discussion. A Poser user can not cheat making art because what he produce is not art. Therefore - he is not cheating. Poser was created to ASSIST making art, functioning as kind of model or mannequin. Larry Weinberg the Original Poser Creator said so himself and is still saying in in the foreword to the Poser manual. Take the trouble to check. It was never meant to be used directly.

When I see and realize the incredible amount the work it takes to learn Poser properly and especially making clothes I can not understand why people not take the final step and learn to paint human figures properly. A plastic Poser render look horrible, that is the only way to describe it. The Poser users are not mobbed because they use a certain program but because of the so called "art" they produce.

@vintorix

"I can not understand why people not take the final step and learn to paint human figures properly"

Some of us just don't have the ability to even draw human figures properly.

Look, it's all a bit storm in a teacup, isn't it? Poser users seem to be trying to validate their efforts in GC. Why? A sunday driver doesn't try to validate his use of a motor vehicle to a race-track driver: two different purposes, a totally different skill set... both are driving a vehicle.

I write shader scripts (don't laugh, BB, I do! ) and am developing dynamic cloth mesh for use in the Poser cloth room. People pose figures to render images that end up as stories somewhere. Illustrators of manuals use Poser to show "how it's done" - better than line drawings, well, my line drawings, anyway. No, we don't make our own meshes (figures, anyway) from scratch. Doesn't make our entries into GC any less valid.

Of course, if we want to claim those entries are "art" - different arena with more exacting critics. Be prepared to have your ego bruised.

Quote - OK, I just checked my post at CGS... I really am steamed. I wanted to ask a question in a neutral place about weight mapping. But that was before I found out about poser sucking and such over there. Now I am even more angry, because strangely they think I came there to be validated?! o0 No I came to ask a technical question and was curious.

Well, yanno - maybe actually asking  your questions might have given you some useful answers?

There even is a "Character Rigging" forum at CGS. 

Rushing in and complaining that Poser isn't treated fair doesn't really help get a reasonable reaction.... :rolleyes:

Quote - > Quote - OK, I just checked my post at CGS... I really am steamed. I wanted to ask a question in a neutral place about weight mapping. But that was before I found out about poser sucking and such over there. Now I am even more angry, because strangely they think I came there to be validated?! o0 No I came to ask a technical question and was curious.

Well, yanno - maybe actually asking  your questions might have given you some useful answers?

There even is a "Character Rigging" forum at CGS. 

Rushing in and complaining that Poser isn't treated fair doesn't really help get a reasonable reaction.... :rolleyes:

Du solltest mit diesen "klugen" Ratschlägen auf deiner Pornoseite bleiben.