Daymond,

What colors are on your lights. Do you understand that Poser Gamma Correction turns on many bits of software, including things affecting your lights.

The difference between your #2 and #3, confined to the head, means the words you wrote are not true. So I have to suspect everything you wrote. If image gamma = 1 on both texture in #2, and image gamma = 2.2 on both textures of #3, then the either or both images are the wrong images.

Also - you're not even addressing the point I was making. You're raising new points. There are actually about 1000 things to say about gamma.

The point I was making was this:

When all enabled gamma changing functions are set to gamma = 1, the results are identical as with no gamma changing functions enabled.

To address that point, demonstrations should include a render with all gamma = 1 and GC on, versus GC off.

We're back to my very first issue. You can't play in this discussion if you cannot track the exact meaning and distinction between:

all

some

First thing when doing GC comparisons is to get your lighting to stop being involved.

Here's what I'm talking about.

Enabling GC with gamma = X in render settings does the following things:

1. For every image that does not have it's own explicit gamma value and is a low dynamic range (LDR) image, it assigns gamma = X. HDR images with no explicit gamma are assigned gamma = 1. No explicit gamma means that the checkbox for "Use render gamma" is enabled for that image. Images are all images - even IBL images inside lights.

2. Every color chip in the shader system is assigned gamma = X. This includes the colors in every kind of node. Light colors are in a node, so this means light colors get a gamma as well.

When gamma is active, only eight colors are unaffected. All other colors are affected. The eight colors that are not affected (will not change with gamma enabled or disabled) are:

Black 0, 0, 0

White 255, 255, 255

Red 255, 0, 0

Green 0, 255, 0

Blue 0, 0, 255

Cyan 0, 255, 255

Magenta 255, 0, 255

Yellow 255, 255, 0

White 255, 255, 255

OK so far?

Now every color chip (lights, materials, atmosphere - everywhere) and every image is anti-gamma corrected by

x ^ gamma

For those images where gamma = 1 (either explicitly or implicitly) this does nothing. Otherwise if the image has any color in it besides the eight I listed, it is modified. Any color chips besides the eight I listed are modified.

The pixel color of a render pixel is calculated.

The final output color is gamma corrected by the formula:

x ^ (1 / gamma)

For gamma = 1, this does nothing.

For gamma = 2.2, this does

X = x ^ (1 / 2.2)

I'm using upper case X to mean the value stored in the render, and lower case x to mean the correct color in linear color space.

Then when this is displayed on a monitor with a standard gamma of 2.2, the monitor applies its gamma

X ^ 2.2

Put back the render expression for X and you get

x ^ (1 / 2.2) ^ 2.2

which is

x ^ (2.2 / 2.2)

same as

x ^ 1

same as

x

In other words, the final gamma correction is how you cause the correct color to appear on your monitor. If you don't do that, you get a different color, unless it happens to be one of the eight pure colors I listed.

So we want to stop dealing with gamma in lights and materials and final render because it is confusing to be changing so many things at once. People say they did not change anything but the render gamma. Well that means you changed 100 things.

So here's your simple rule for the time being.

Your light color must be WHITE - RGB 255, 255, 255.

Anything else and you're going to be chasing dreams.

For the purpose of the test picture, I went with just the default Poser Pro 2012 lights, because I figured you would be familiar with how they look and act. The colors are the default light grey and such.

I'm sorry if I'm not asking the right questions or such. As stated above, Poser Pro 2012 is new to me, as is gamma correction, but unlike other people you've dealt with that just say "screw it, I'll do without", I -want- to learn and understand it.

Also as previously stated in the pictures, the first picture is with GC off, and the second is with it turned on, but with the different material settings' gamma at 1.

I'm sorry if I'm wasting your time being a newbie who knows nothing but wishes to understand, but we all have to start somewhere, and the thread search just isn't as good as some people like to say it is.

Relax. Please stop addressing the format of the discourse and just address the points.

Your image #2 and #3 have the same output in the body.

This contradicts what you've said, twice now.

Go check your work.

Set image gamma = 1 on both. Check it again in the texture manager dialog.

Then render and call that a name you can't confuse - like "ImgGamma=1 RndrGamma=22.jpg"

Compare that to the posted image #2.

But don't even bother with any more tests unless you set all light colors to white.

This is what it looks like when you do not have all image gamma set to 1 - just some.

some

not

all

Please note that this dialog is a little buggy. If you have tricky shaders, it will occasionally not notice an image involved in that shader.

I notice also among your 3 images, you changed the background/floor.

So there's another thing you changed but said you didn't change anything like that.

Be careful.

some is not all

only is not one of many

You made many changes and claimed you only made gamma changes.

If you're going to understand you must be meticulous. Failure to accept responsibility for mistakes, for changes you didn't realize you made, will lead to your confusion, not mine. I understand this stuff perfectly and nothing ever happens to me that I did not anticipate, plan, and expect.

Even a simple change like show/hide the floor, and you have IDL enabled, you are changing the lighting. Watch that.

I am completely unfamiliar with the default lights. I deleted them the moment they arrived.

Just because something comes with Poser doesn't make it good. Almost all the materials and lights suck, completely.

So here I'm using a single infinite white light at 90% intensity, plus IDL is enabled.

The floor will influence the light because of IDL. Bounced light will fill the otherwise 100% shadows.

The background is black and will not change in any test.

Gamma control OFF

Render Gamma = 1

Flip test should make it clear that this is the same as previously, i.e. identical to Gamma Off.

Render Gamma = 2.2

This is where Gamma Correction is intentionally unbalanced and is NOT actually a "correction". It is a change in gamma, but not a correction of gamma.

You can't use gamma-in=1 and gamma-out=2.2. It produces washed out results. You could track the math easily enough, or you can use your eyes.

And there is no reason to do this. Nevertheless people keep doing this. I don't know why. Yes it's ugly.

Image gamma = 2.2

Render gamma = 2.2

I do appreciate your bringing my attention to the Image Gamma script. That certainly is handy, and luckily, the Krystal model's shaders are painfully simplistic, so there were no bugs that I saw. I'm figuring that some "node sorcery" could possibly make this model's textures look much better, but I might be getting too far ahead of myself.

edit:  dangit, and you posted before I got mine in. Darn email alerts are only coming in when they want to, it seems.

Notice in my last two that the ground and the tube top do not change color. They both have shaders with no images in them. So image gamma is not a factor for them - just render gamma. Both of them have colors that are correct no matter what as they have no images involved.

Comparing my fox #3 and #4 in a flip test, you see the blue texture changing - nothing else.

Your middle is incorrect. That is not gamma=1 everywhere, as you labeled it.

That is gamma=1 on images, gamma = 2.2 on render.

Are you trying to be confused?

I am attempting as politely as possible to make everybody aware of the difference between words like

all, every, everywhere, universally

and words like

some, one, a few, sometimes, here and there, occasionally,

Ah shit, you're right. Dangit. I think I'm rushing myself too much that I'm getting myself messed up.

Either way, though, the last version with gamma = 2.2 on images, 2.2 on render is how it ultimately should look like, then? That lightbulb over my head is starting to come on, but it's flickering and buzzing.

Thank you - I love you - you are my #1 pupil now.

Not because I'm right. But because you learned the most important lesson. When you don't know something and are unused to dealing with it, it rarely matters what you think you did. You probably did something else.

Took me years of Poser work to learn that every time I "discovered" or "proved" something, I needed to do it again six more ways, from scratch, before I could trust that I really discovered that. I get in fights with people on this forum for that simple reason. They think I'm pompous and over sure of my understanding, when it's exactly the OTHER WAY AROUND.

But not with you, thank goodness.

You've given me an idea. I'm going to make a prop that you can include in a render.

When render gamma = 1 or render GC is off, it will be black. When render gamma is >= 2.2 it will be white. For any other values it will show a mixture of white dots on a black background.

Hell, I'm a former game tester for EA. I'm of the persuasion that if I found something, but can't reproduce it, it doesn't exist. :>

That said, I am looking into something that may or not be a bug, concerning Krystal's dynamic hair-based fur tail. It seems that every now and then, it stops being "fluffy" like it should, and instead, only renders the guide hairs that show during preview. Suppose I'll submit a ticket if I can nail that one down and consistently, if it's not already been addressed.

OK I've uploaded a modified version of my light meter, called the BBGammaMeter.

The center will show diffuse light levels just like my BBLightMeter. But the rim will show render gamma level.

gamma = 1 will be black

gamma = 1.8 will be almost all white

gamma = 2 will be yellow

gamma = 2.2 or higher will be red

You can get it here:

https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/file-cabinet/BBGammaMeter.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

(All image gamma are set to "scene")

From now on, I will reject any claim of render gamma - just include my meter and I'll know what your light levels were and what your render gamma was.

I'll still have to trust you to tell me your image gamma values, but don't think I can't tell just by looking at it that your data is right or wrong.

hate to jump in  in  the midle of your lesson BB  , but i want to make the related comment: I dont ever use the the GC in P2010, i have all of my favorite skin, clothing, hair, etc shaders that  have been genrated by VSS in my library  and so  I load those shaders and i set the different GC levels for the different items in  the scene via  the shaders. obviously not commenting on the nature of GC here, just  pointing out a different approach than  using the GC in P2010 / P9

PP2012 default lights:

Light1: IBL Color(.621, .547, .578), Int: 100%, x:-59 y:-46 z:29, No shadow, AO .7

Light2: Spot Color(.742, .745, .740), Int: 100%, xr:-3 yr:-151 zr:-8, xt:129.18 yt:53.21 zt:-156.7, DM shadows: SBR 2 SS 19 SMB .8, AO .7

Light3: Spot Color(.914, .896, 1), Int: 100%, xr:113 yr:331 zr:-164, xt:-83.01 yt:147.08 zt:-4.225, DM shadows: SBR 2 SS 19 SMB .8, AO .7

Light4: Infinite Color(.685, .685, .685), Int: 100%, xr:-79 yr:-14 zr:9 DM shadows: SBR 2 SS 19 SMB .8, No AO

For what it's worth.

So all shadows are depth mapped, no colours fit the "will not be affected by gamma change" criteria. For the purposes of this discussion: not useful lights at all. Which is why I make my own.

To me there is no question: lights and material shaders are intimately tied together. If you don't consider lights are key to getting it right with gamma correction, you'll never be playing on a level playing field and so won't know what's happening with what. Doesn't mean I've sorted everything out completely about GC: my issues with makeup make it clear that there are still holes in my process somewhere. Thank for the Gamma meter and for pointing out that script: I'll run that past some of my questionable scenes and see what is going on.

Quote - OK I've uploaded a modified version of my light meter, called the BBGammaMeter.

The center will show diffuse light levels just like my BBLightMeter. But the rim will show render gamma level.

gamma = 1 will be black

gamma = 1.8 will be almost all white

gamma = 2 will be yellow

gamma = 2.2 or higher will be red

You can get it here:

https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/file-cabinet/BBGammaMeter.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

This will work on any version of Poser that has GC right? Not just P9/Pro 2012?

Should do, Modus0. What a cool idea, hey?

Yes it will actually "work" on any version of Poser from P5 and up. Thing is that only the Pro versions will ever draw it in anything but black.