personally i dont think photorealism should be the focus of 3D  (and i do distinguish between 'realism' and 'photorealism').

people packing pimples/blackheads/boils on their textures in the blind pursuit of photorealism should stop and ask themselves why they dont just take a photo instead. this is 3D, it should seek to transcend reality not mindlessly emulate it.  i do want realism in subtle things such as a render capturing the proper translucence of skin, a realistic eye that looks deep and liquid, a shoulder or even a knee that bends like a real one....  but beyond that i believe that 3D should have a sense of polish, aesthetics, style.

but of course everyone is free to choose their own path, so dont mind me.

Photorealism isn't my priority with 3D.  I have a camera for that.  :-)

But that doesn't mean I don't want improvements.  It's nice to have the option.

I consider myself a fairly average Poser user.  I do usually do my own poses.  I can't imagine not using the Material Room.  I also use dynamic clothing and dynamic hair, though not every time I do a render; I appreciate the convenience of prop hair and conforming clothes.  I have been in the setup room, but honestly, I have no clue how to use it.

I never said photorealism ;). I'll leave that to the photographers. I just think it's not too much to ask to get nice translucent skin (which they've actually added) and glass that looks like glass and not air with a reflection map :P.

Yes, I'm fixated on glass....lol.

Laurie

"...but right now, just a rush implementation to satisfy Genesis compatibility would be a waste of resources."

This is true, assuming that Genesis will have no effect on Poser sales. Right now, (especially if you go by comments here) that is the case. Whether Poser sales will remain unaffected by not fully supporting DAZ content in the future remains to be seen. It depends on how most new/upgrading users would prioritize DAZ content support vs. other possible features, e.g. better lighting, faster rendering, soft body dynamics etc.

When talking about how many people will 'use', weight mapping, or any feature, you have to distinguish between the feature and its output. By definition, everyone using a weight mapped figure will be 'using' weight mapping. That is entirely different from using it, or again any feature, to actually create/alter content. Unless you believe that a substantial majority of users fall into the latter category, then a better question might be how many content creators will use a given feature in the content that they distribute? Beyond that, you also have to consider how many people would buy an item because it incorporates a feature vs. a similar one that does not. Feature X also needs to provide discernable improvements in the useage scenario that is typical for the given user, in proportion to any increased cost in terms of price, render time, ease of use etc. Taking that into account, I wonder how many people would upgrade to 9/2012 or DS4 just to use weight mapped content?

Photo real? No, realistic yes. I see some of Carrodans work and its not photo real but better IMO. Rendering and materials though I dont know much about. 

Tools...  I will always want the best to use. But I will use what I have. Weight mapping vs sphere rigging is like sable and camel hair brushes vs synthetic plastic. I always want the sable and camel hair, they just work better. Saves time and headache.

About the Daz shake up, happens all the time, I think, in business, so probably nothing more than the economy. Dont want to speculate.  I do believe we will get subD in Poser, but I am not overly eager to see it. It has just as many disadvantages as the smoothing we have now. Low poly mesh in subD or any other smoothing algorithm will always look a little puffy, minus displacement or something similar. But its likely we will have both in Poser befor long and choice is good I suppose.

"About the Daz shake up, happens all the time, I think, in business"

True & the timing seems a bit off to justify the connection I'm sure some are making :-)

OTOH, I heard a rumor that Rush Limbaugh said he wanted Genesis to fail before it was even released. 

I would like to see smoothing, but I think it some cases it would actually be a detriment as Diogenes has pointed out. Fine details probably won't survive the smoothing process all that well (nose creases, ear creases, eye creases, etc where you want a sharper deliniation) ;).

Laurie

Quote - I would like to see smoothing, but I think it some cases it would actually be a detriment as Diogenes has pointed out. Fine details probably won't survive the smoothing process all that well (nose creases, ear creases, eye creases, etc where you want a sharper deliniation) ;).

You just pointed out the reason why smoothing cannot be an automatic process: in some places is might useful, in others it would be just disastrous; the mesh developer is the one who decides where to smooth what, not the application (grotesque that one has to point out such things, like telling "water, the one that makes things wet, mind you").

Bye.

Quote - I never said photorealism ;). I'll leave that to the photographers. I just think it's not too much to ask to get nice translucent skin (which they've actually added) and glass that looks like glass and not air with a reflection map :P.

Yes, I'm fixated on glass....lol.

Laurie

We all have our fixations, hon... at the moment, mine is with fixing a 5-oclock shadow on Mariko. But it changes. To be honest, most of the time you wouldn't want to know what I get fixated on... and no, it's nothing lascivious. More like: "what the flip am I doing wrong in this method??? Where is a proper Python IDE when you need it!!"

Lascivious would have been more fun - I'm 9 of the world's 10 most boring people.

Speaking of which: all this - okay, format thingie - discussion gives rise to opportunities. Am I the only one seeing them? Here's the deal: we seem to think it's ever so important to have ONE figure do the lot for us. V4 did. Then, we looked to a new goddess. But hey, there are so many awesome figures out there. Enterprising individuals could potentially look at these figures as filling a specific niche! The conversion-software people could be the new heroes, the icons everyone follows because Antonia's hair can now be worn by Helena, whose gowns could now be worn by Lilliana, whose shoes can now be borrowed/stole by the new Xena, warrior princess. Okay, Xena probably wouldn't have a lot of occasion to wear Lilliana's shoes, but you get my drift.

A singe-figure dominance can only happen with file format compatibility. File format split happens, multi-figure - specific to need - suddenly gets a grip.

It's thoughts like these that kept me out of the really good schools. :blink:

Quote - You just pointed out the reason why smoothing cannot be an automatic process: in some places is might useful, in others it would be just disastrous; the mesh developer is the one who decides where to smooth what, not the application (grotesque that one has to point out such things, like telling "water, the one that makes things wet, mind you").

It's still possible to crease parts of your mesh when using a good implemented subdivision, so the modeler can decide what should be smoothed. Afterwards, the process is automatic.

Meet the new boss...same as the old boss.....

I don't think we will see any changes at DAZ that will negatively affect our ability to buy the content we want. Yes there is a new figure in the market, but that alone does not force a split, it is simply a new figure.

I have always been a poser user since P4 (well...i did use p3 for a while, but we wont talk about that LOL)...but as a content maker I felt I owed it to my customers to be up to date with all the new products and software. That way I can give the best to my customers.

I hear all this talk centering around Genesis, as the new tech, and the big difference between ds4 and poser. But to me Genesis is just one part of it. Sure it bends great in ds4 and poses real nice. But that is only one part of ds4 that I find great.
I always found it tough to fit clothes to my characters, because lets face it, my characters can be really weird. But with ds4, it is so easy to fit clothes to almost any figure. That is one things I totally dig about the program. I can fit all my old content to a new figure and have much less poke through issues than I ever had in poser.

There are also alot more things in ds4 than that which are very innovative, but I am still new to the program, so it may take a while to fully appreaciate them. But things that make for a much smoother production (like having clothes fit without hours of tweeking), are the innovations that mean alot to me. Moreso than what is going on behind the scenes with how things are rigged and such. Because in the end, I am more concerned about the art i make, not the tech behind it.

Rawn

Rawn,

There are many things which DS4 does NOT have and which people find more important than the occasional pokethrough which can be fixed in seconds.

DS4 with its new interface is exactly what I dislike in DAZ's approach to its customers: Treating them like 3 year olds and make it hard for them to do anything else but click and render. Making stuff easier is good - making stuff impossible or very cumbersome for the experienced user is bad.

Also using its paying customers to test unfinished products is something which I absolutely dislike, especially when it accompanied by a series of incompatible updates as we have seen in the past

Wim

Quote - It's still possible to crease parts of your mesh when using a good implemented subdivision, so the modeler can decide what should be smoothed. Afterwards, the process is automatic.

Yes... and then you have to be able specify the crease angle edge-per-edge or, for example, use the obscure ctech curv specifier in the OBJ files, things that, AFAIK, are unsupported in programs of the class of Blender.

Rube Goldberg anyone?

The question begs asking: perhaps DS4 creators didn't really attempt to address the experienced user's needs or workflow? Dunno...

Just askin'.... :biggrin:

Quote - The question begs asking: perhaps DS4 creators didn't really attempt to address the experienced user's needs or workflow? Dunno...

Just askin'.... :biggrin:

Not quite so simple, Robyn.  They did actually ASK their experienced users.

The users told DAZ they hated the interface.

And DAZ introduced it anyway.

I also want to address some of Rawn's other points.  First, given that their customer base wasn't going to buy all new for Genesis, DAZ created AutoFit - smart marketing, nothing else.  Of course, true to DAZ, it's a half complete product, but that's their business model.  Promise the Moon, deliver little but promises.

As for the other "features" of DS4, one can only hope they manage to find all this "greatness" without documentation or completed software.  Of course, one also has to hope that DAZ doesn't break everything the user just learned with the ever present "updates" they push out to fix bugs.

Thanks, Glitterati. The question begged asking. An approach a bit diametrically opposed to what I'm used to. It's not apples-to-apples: Poser's interface has been virtually unchanged since? P5? But if they dumbed-down the mat room or dyn cloth room without leaving options for experienced users, I'm certain ***experienced Poser users *** would have had something to say about it.

Quote - Thanks, Glitterati. The question begged asking. An approach a bit diametrically opposed to what I'm used to. It's not apples-to-apples: Poser's interface has been virtually unchanged since? P5? But if they dumbed-down the mat room or dyn cloth room without leaving options for experienced users, I'm certain ***experienced Poser users *** would have had something to say about it.

As much as the material room makes me pull my hair out, this is true. I never, NEVER use simple mode there. Only advanced. And if I couldn't I'd be pissed....lol.

Laurie

DS4 is FAR from an unfinished product. It is a product and it is what it is. Thats it.

Of course people have their own agendas of thigns they would like to see in a program, but that does not make a program unfinished.The program simply does what it does, and as the programs grows, more things will be added. That is true for any program.

I am not a poser fanboi or a ds4 fanboi, i simply use the softwares to get what I want out of them. So far I still prefer the renders I get from poser. To me they look much better. But I will admit maybe alot has to do with my ignorance of ds4, and maybe someday I will learn. But I cannot blame the software for my faults.

But that doesnt detract from the fact that there are alot of cool innovations put into ds4. THAT was the point I was making.

I actually like the new interface to ds4, the old one confused the hell outta me and that was part of the reason I never really got into ds before. Yeah there were a number of people who didnt like the new look, but it seems that a majority of the people do, and it is only a  vocal minority who are having problems with it. But at least with d/s the interface can be modified a little to help people get the look they want. That is a concession that many programs do not have.

But contrary to what the vocal minority is saying, it seems both ds4 and genesis are being highly accepted my a big majority of the community. I know my sales alone show as much support for my genesis sets as they do for my poser ones (and in some cases the numbers have been even higher....probably due to the fact that I can do things to genesis that I could never do to any previous figure)

I do look forward to the future and hopefully all the cool things about genesis will one day be able to be done in poser as well, I would really love that. But until then I will continue to use both programs, knowing that neither is the be all and end all, they each simply do what they do.

Rawn

Quote - In agendas of thigns they would like to see in a program, but that does not make a program unfinished.

I don't think that's the argument anyone is making.  Rather, they are referring to the issues Kerwin and others have raised. It's unfinished in that there's little documentation for other companies who might want to make products that work with it, and things are still in flux, to the point that updates could completely blow you out of the water if you're trying to make compatible products. 

I agree..the lack of documentation sucks.

Rawn

:thumbupboth: Rawnrr

Due to all the flap over the new interface, I put off installing DS4 for a few months - I just wasn't up to learning what sounded like a huge and difficult change. Dumb me for listening to all the complaints, I should know better! (I work in IT, and deal with users complaining about simple changes every day)

For me the new interface is great, and it seems much more responsive! There were a couple of things I liked better in DS3, but there is usually a compromise or two with every big change. I agree with Rawn that DS4 does everything it was designed to do, and is "complete". Some really nice new features, and Genesis is actually a lot of fun to use.

Bottom line - DS4 does what it does, and Poser 9/2012 does what it does. No real reason to attack either one, or get duped into playing the "mines bigger and better, yours isn't as good" games. 

sorry, DS is in a perpetual beta state. there has never been a finished version, with possibly 2 or 3 service packs to iron out a few bugs,then a full new version every couple of years.

you don't see numerous updates throughout the year for other 3D apps, there may be a point release or a service pack or 2, but not rejigged versions that means you have to re-download the entire app.

personally, i don't think that DAZ3D have ANY programmers capable of coding a service pack that can be installed into the core app.

"... there has never been a finished version..."

And you truly believe this? Ah well. 

Quote - ...

It's still possible to crease parts of your mesh when using a good implemented subdivision, so the modeler can decide what should be smoothed. Afterwards, the process is automatic.

IMO this is the single most important reason, why Catmull-Clark can be generally considered a very good idea to have in a program like DS and Poser, but Poser's smoothing is not: practical any 3d modeling program has a CC subdivision built in, but very few have Poser-smoothing built in (i do not know of any, do you?). It does not matter that much, if any of those smoothing variants are better implemented than the other. it is simply the fact, that with CC, the modeler can decide what should be smoothed, simply because the modeling program supports it, too. Poser's subdivision can be as good as it wants, as long you cannot effectively build models for it because your modeling application does not support it, you always will get inferior results with it in the end.

Thanx DustRider

Rawn

Quote - "... there has never been a finished version..."

And you truly believe this? Ah well. 

That's correct.

DAZ has never produced a piece of software that lived up to their announcement brochures yet.

Not once.

Imo the "first move" by the new management of changing DAZ to Digital Art Zone seems like a good idea. To someone not familiar with the Poser-world they must wonder what's a DAZ? Dazzle? Häagen-Dazs? Daz Dillinger the hip-hop star?

At least Digital Art Zone suggests ART to the newcomer.  The only name that sounds worse than DAZ is Zygote! :p

**
**

** **

In fairness 3anson, I should say that I am unsure if your opinion is based on actually using the software ot merely on looking at the number of updates. Different developers have different approaches. Some update often, others prefer to accumulate changes. I don't think one should draw conclusions on quality based soley on update frequency. Personally, I don't even know if there's an update for the DS3 I originally downloaded. The one I use works without problems. Though I certainly don't claim to have tried every feature and of DS or most any other application, it works and does what it says it is supposed to do for everything I've called on it to do. To me that is certainly not unfinished - at least not more than any other application that isn't in legacy status.

Regarding the DAZ programming team, I don't know what your experience developing software is, but having done it for longer than I care to think about and looking at the quality of the application, I must respectfully say that I find your assessment less than credible. Unless you have knowledge of development in general and specifics regarding the architecture of the application, coding techniques, details on what gets updated and why - and most importantly what you would do differently, I don't think you should be so quick to question the competence of the people who put a lot of hard work into producing the product. That's my opinion anyway.

I wish they'd learn to do Updates... you know instead of downloading the whole program again..just like MS, Apple, Linux, etc .. infact 99% of the programming world do. if they can do it, why can't Daz?

we're not all on unlimited bandwidth.

I have never liked the fact that any software updates I've had to install for Daz Studio  has necessitated a complete reinstalltion, downloading undated plugins (if updates ever came out), and has I entailed many hours of downloading and reinstalltion.  I will install the free Daz Studio when M5 comes out if I want him, but otherwise I'd love to simply jettison DS completely, but if I want their attractive new people some sort of Daz Studio maybe unavoidable.  I'm very skeptical about Genesis ever being useable in Poser, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if I'm proven wrong.

everyone is entitled to an opinion.

i have been using DS since DS 1.7, right up to DS3A ( last version) only started using Poser last year, primarily as a beta tester for products. so i have plenty of experience with DS. 

nowhere did i bring 'quality of software' into the discussion.

no other 3D software i know of, as multiple updates through out the year.

if an app needs a few bugs sorting, the maker issues a service release ( which does not entail having to download the entire app everytime).

as a matter of fact, i have been very happy with DS, up to DS4 ( which in my opinion is a POS)

but my liking of the app does not blind me to its shortcomings, or the shortcomings of the company that produces it.

Quote - we're not all on unlimited bandwidth.

^no kidding. i live in the sticks and get 2 gigs of mobile broadband to ration for a month (~70 megs a day).  in this day and age when there are simple webpages that are >5 megs a pop, it doesnt go very far.  i have to use noscript and image blocking plugins in firefox to conserve bandwidth. 

after that its 5 cents a meg... which adds up insanely fast :(

Quote - I wish they'd learn to do Updates... you know instead of downloading the whole program again..just like MS, Apple, Linux, etc .. infact 99% of the programming world do. if they can do it, why can't Daz?

 

we're not all on unlimited bandwidth.

Programming is not DAZ's strong suit.

3anson I agree with you, it always has seemed to me, and I've used every version of Daz Studio since the beginning, that it is a program that is never completely ready--as you said perpetual beta.  Nor am I too enamoured of its render engine.

Quote -
Time for Poser users to move on to bigger and better than DAZ figures.

Such as...? 

A quick peek at yon Rendo marketplace shows Vickie (3 and 4) figures out-numbering damned near everything else. 

I suspect that unless merchies get off their butts and start supporting those alternate figures, the whole Poser userbase will begin to go stale. 

==================

Quote - "Even games these days have no problems any more with higher res meshes"

I am not a gamer but those Game characters are still SINGLE mesh rigs with all kinds of baked in lighting&occlusion and other Game engine optimizations
with poser DAZ you still have the polygons of the naked figure
then the pants then the shirt,the jacket, the boots 
etc, etc, etc.

It adds up.

Cheers

Correct.

Most in-game meshes are also well under 10k polys tops (average is around 5k), with a sh*tload of subdivision to make up the difference. The limitations involve the game engines. To compound the slowdown in engine advancement, gaming has shifted from computers to (largely) consoles, which are far less capable of the on-the-fly rendering, and has a slower hardware roadmap.

==

Quote - Quote - "Games have extra constraints... like being able to do a dozen things at once in real time.  Poser and DS can take 5 minutes (Or overnight) to render everything properly.  Games needs at least 30fps or people will start getting mad.  Some want 60 FPS with settings maxxed out. "

The FPS cravings have more to do with getting smoother in-game physics and aiming accuracy than with eye-candy or aesthetics. The human eye stops counting frames for most folks at 24 FPS

Quote - speaking of games.. why is it that a geforce could render hair like this in real time at acceptable framerates back in 2008 - INCLUDING DYNAMICS...

Most of the animations are still pre-rendered (in our use of the term), and quite a few of the eye-bleeding details are actually cut-scenes (also pre-rendered). 

Also, the word "rendered" means something different to the games programmer than it does to the CG hobbyist.

...and with that, it's time to head for Seattle and spend a couple days goofing off w/ the missus, maybe urinate on the big sign in front of the Microsoft campus... you know, fun stuff. :p 

Happy Thanksgiving, y'all

happy Thanksgiving to you folk south of the border :)

nom nom nom, scarf that turkey :)

I may be less sensitive to the updates issue because, other than the odd Windows security update, I don't update anything unless I read the change list and see that it fixes an issue I'm having problems with or includes some new feature that I want. I don't know why they use the method they do. Virtually everything seems to be broken down into dlls. I don't know how many of those change between versions. I do look at them as new versions, rather than updates - perhaps that's their take as well, but that's just semantics. At any rate, as long as the content stays intact... I do understand the bandwidth issue. I just went from dialup to a rather flaky DSL connection a few months ago.

On reflection, I can think of why the monolithic 'updates.'  Because they do them frequently (for good or evil), they can't know what anyone has, i.e. which verions of which dlls. Just installing X.1.03 new files would likely not work for someone who skipped X.1.02 and was still on X.1.01. As an example, even though Windows service packs are usually cumulative, I have a machine with XP SP1 that I can't upgrade to SP3 until I install SP2. From a logistical standpoint, it's easier and safer (lookup 'dll hell') to do a full install. At least that makes sense to me ATM -:) Perhaps Peng can weigh in on that.

I agree that the plugin architecture is a double-edged sword - one reason I prefer Opera to Firefox. You're at the mercy of your plugin developers. Even if you do your part and get them updated sdk's, api's etc. there's no guarantee they'll meet deadlines or won't even lose interest entirely. When it works, it's great. You get features the developers may not have thought of, or are to much of a niche interest to invest time in. You can then pick the best ones and buy/license them e.g. Wardrobe Wizard in Poser, SkinVue in Vue and some of the shaders in DS. It sucks though when your fave plugin is broken by a new release - another reason I don't update just because it's available. Usually that works better for me.

I think just the fact that DAZ felt it necessary to shake up their hierarchy, especially so soon after their Gensis release, shows that they are indeed feeling some pain for their "less than enthusiastic" customer service and/or care of what the world thinks.

I have a lot of decent male figues in my runtime now, which are very versatile without Genesis.  I'm waiting to see if Brad ever makes it to the sale floor--perhaps he'd be a good alternative to M5.  I just purchased Miki 3 for times when I want an interesting woman, and download Antonia Polygon.  It remains to be seen if Genesis is ultimately something I can live without; only time will tell--but Smith Micro should use this an opportunity to have developers design some attractive figures with weight mapping as an alternative to the Daz human line; there are people like myself who have had bad DS experiences and really don't want to hastle with it again.  If they could come up with something like that, I'd gladly buy them as an alternative to the Genesis system. 

The Genesis thing is an endless money pit, and I don't have endless money--I refuse to buy duplicate generation 4 Daz figures as I paid good money for them in the original forms and am quite happy with buying inexpensive character/texture sets to get new looks and morphs out of them.

That having been said, I'm not sure even I will be able to withstand the allure of the M5 figure when he hits the store next month. . .

I thought SmithMicro and Digital Art Zone were in the 3D figure business for completely different reasons and for completely different customers?  I know the content vendors would like to think otherwise.

Quote - I think just the fact that DAZ felt it necessary to shake up their hierarchy, especially so soon after their Gensis release, shows that they are indeed feeling some pain for their "less than enthusiastic" customer service and/or care of what the world thinks.

I own 2 manufacturing companies. Hiring at the level Daz did is not the same as hiring somebody to work on an assembly line, load trucks, or even run a machine like a lathe or a mill. It takes months and months of searching to find the right fit to lead a company like DAZ  Add on top of that the market DAZ serves and the products both software and content and you narrow the list of candiates with the right skil set down to some very unique qualifications.

In my opinion the timing has nothing to do with the current situation of characters and probably started last spring or at the latest early summer. I am trying to find somebody to work in a unique sales position and have been searching for over 6 months and still can't find the skill set or fit I want.

That's pretty clearly more a situation of Dan Farr saying "welp I'm a multimillionaire and pretty much set for life, Ima play me some golf."  DAZ is privately held, and Dan is one of the founders.  Come on guys.

e: in case it's not obvious, Dan owns a large portion of the company.

Quote - I thought SmithMicro and Digital Art Zone were in the 3D figure business for completely different reasons and for completely different customers?  I know the content vendors would like to think otherwise.

Naw I don't really see any content vendors making a big stink about how D|S and Poser have been diverging, it's not exactly a new situation after all.  People who were especially interested in providing D|S content are probably already set up with the required tools.  Those who weren't interested probably will never be, now that their cost is so high.

May just be apochryphal, but I seem to see a fair bit of migration, Paul. Just sayin'...

Is this the only active page left on rendero?

We can write a thousand more post on this , nothing we can change.

OK, Dazzie-daz has another boss, now lets move on.
Thanks, unsubscribing.

Quote - Is this the only active page left on rendero?

We can write a thousand more post on this , nothing we can change.

OK, Dazzie-daz has another boss, now lets move on.
Thanks, unsubscribing.

These threads tend to generate a great deal of heat, not much light.

"These threads tend to generate a great deal of heat, not much light."
Yes the DS only nature of D.A.Z  Prime new figure
is an Emotional&Divisive issue for some( not all)

hence the massive participation in threads related to it.

Cheers

Quote - Time for Poser users to move on to bigger and better than DAZ figures.

Umm...I think it is safe to say that DAZ (Digital Art Zone) excels at making 3D figures. No one else is even close.  Did you get Miki 3?  Posette bends better than she does. Vicki 4 rules.  DAZ might as well change their name to Vicki-land!

Quote - That's pretty clearly more a situation of Dan Farr saying "welp I'm a multimillionaire and pretty much set for life, Ima play me some golf."  DAZ is privately held, and Dan is one of the founders.  Come on guys.

e: in case it's not obvious, Dan owns a large portion of the company.

/nod  

Dunno if anyone remembers, Chris Creek did pretty much the same thing, what, a year ago?  

 New managment hum wonder why??? Hum ? O could it be