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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Dec 13 7:48 am)



Subject: References for Epicanthic Fold ( "Asian" eyes)


infinity10 ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 2:15 AM · edited Fri, 13 December 2024 at 8:19 AM

file_475616.jpg

I will upload 5 reference photo samples for the "Asian" eye showing what an epicanthic fold is.  This is merely my way of emphasising the need for accuracy in depictions of characters requiring this type of feature.

 

Eternal Hobbyist

 


infinity10 ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 2:15 AM

file_475617.jpg

second of five

Eternal Hobbyist

 


infinity10 ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 2:16 AM · edited Sat, 26 November 2011 at 2:16 AM

file_475618.jpg

Third of five.

Eternal Hobbyist

 


infinity10 ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 2:16 AM · edited Sat, 26 November 2011 at 2:17 AM

file_475619.jpg

Fourth of five.

Eternal Hobbyist

 


infinity10 ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 2:17 AM

file_475620.jpg

Last one - strictly for comparison purposes.

Eternal Hobbyist

 


infinity10 ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 2:20 AM

Some babies, regardless of ethinicity, may have the epicanthic fold, so that's another point for accuracy, if required for infant characters.

Eternal Hobbyist

 


infinity10 ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 2:21 AM · edited Sat, 26 November 2011 at 2:23 AM

I apologise for the poor quality of the references.  These are merely references.

Eternal Hobbyist

 


lmckenzie ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 2:58 AM

In your experience, which figure/morph would you say is most accurate in this regard?

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken


MadameX ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 8:05 AM · edited Sat, 26 November 2011 at 8:05 AM

These are helpful references, infinity10.

I do have one question, though.

How is #4 ref. photo, different from #5 photo, excluding the obvious that #4 is a photo of an Asian eye, and #5 is of a Caucasian? They look about the same to me. 😕 

Other than calling the Asian one 'epicanthic' and the Caucasian one, 'deep-set', I don't see a difference.

I'm not trying to be difficult or hard to get along with...they both look the same to me!

 

Is there an actual, physical difference that isn't apparent here?


infinity10 ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 8:36 AM

@MadameX - yes it is hard to see from the poor quality of the photo samples. Number 4 actually has the inner corner of the lower lid appearing to end behind the inner corner of the upper lid.  That is basically the key point in any depiction of the classical epicanthic fold.

@lmckenzie - I have been looking at some of the Asian characters for Poser sold here at Renderosity, and so far, I cannot really say any particular one accurately represents the case of this topic.  I don't want to point out any specific item.

Allow me a moment to make a collage of the eyes for the out-of-the-box Asian figures made for Poser use. ie, Miki3, Miki2, Izumi of Poser 8, Satoko (by Poserism) and Tuyoko (by Have).  I included the semi-stylised Satoko and Tuyoko, because their eyes are closer to the type discussed in this topic.

Eternal Hobbyist

 


infinity10 ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 8:49 AM

file_475623.jpg

Here we go:

The Satoko figure has the closest match for the eye type with epicanthic fold, despite it (or her) being a semi-stylised human figure.

Eternal Hobbyist

 


richardson ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 9:33 AM

file_475624.jpg

Good subject. I got this out of Miki1 years ago using ZB2. It was a struggle with the mesh and Eyelashes then, iirc. I tried to get eyes of the actresse Koyuki. Double fold looks very difficult without proper mesh topo.


infinity10 ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 10:07 AM

@Richardson -

Koyuki is a good reference, because she has those classic eyes.

 

Generally speaking, looking at the inner corner of each eye, the upper lid fold protrudes over the lower lid. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the lower inner corner appears to be behind the fold of the upper lid corner.  The latter itself ends below the lower eyelid level, thus giving the impression that the eyes are slanted with lower inner corner and (virtual) higher outer corner.

The challenge for creators of realistic Far Eastern characters, is to make their custom morphs more accurate in depicting such classical epicanthic folds, without making the face appear unnatural or weird.

Eternal Hobbyist

 


lmckenzie ( ) posted Sat, 26 November 2011 at 5:06 PM

Thanks. Yes, Satoko does look the closest.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken


nobodyinparticular ( ) posted Sun, 27 November 2011 at 7:41 AM

Thank you. This has been of interest to me, also. I lack the finances for high end software such as Z-brush. Is it possible to achieve the correct look from within Poser, such as with the morphing tool? (Or another approach.) Or is that too crude an instrument?


Teyon ( ) posted Sun, 27 November 2011 at 9:10 AM · edited Sun, 27 November 2011 at 9:13 AM

It's interesting that you bring this up. One of the things that made me saddest about the Miki 3 model was that all the beta testers - and I'm pretty sure it was every single one - complained to me that her eyes were modeled-in to be "too asian" and couldn't easily be turned into anything else. I had to do several revisions before we got the final model you all know and even then I got complaints. One of the problems of modeling for a wide range of uses. Looking at the comparisons though, I really should have stuck to my guns because she barely has the eye shape. Maybe if I get called back in for Miki 5 I can do a better job of it. Awesome thread.


Teyon ( ) posted Sun, 27 November 2011 at 9:12 AM

Quote - Thank you. This has been of interest to me, also. I lack the finances for high end software such as Z-brush. Is it possible to achieve the correct look from within Poser, such as with the morphing tool? (Or another approach.) Or is that too crude an instrument?

I'm not a fan of our morph brush, I personally feel it is lacking in some aspects and that some of its abilities aren't documented as well as they could be. However, is it possible to get the look using it? I'll say yes but it will probably take a bit longer than in a dedicated sculpting app like Mudbox or ZBrush.


infinity10 ( ) posted Sun, 27 November 2011 at 9:21 AM

Quote - It's interesting that you bring this up. One of the things that made me saddest about the Miki 3 model was that all the beta testers - and I'm pretty sure it was every single one - complained to me that her eyes were modeled-in to be "too asian" and couldn't easily be turned into anything else. I had to do several revisions before we got the final model you all know and even then I got complaints. One of the problems of modeling for a wide range of uses. Looking at the comparisons though, I really should have stuck to my guns because she barely has the eye shape. Maybe if I get called back in for Miki 5 I can do a better job of it. Awesome thread.

Miki 3 is also a business proposition, so I'm not surprised that authenticity had to make way for sale-ability appeal.  Don't feel too bad about it !

Eternal Hobbyist

 


Teyon ( ) posted Sun, 27 November 2011 at 9:38 AM

Thanks. I really do appreciate the additional refs, the whole reason we even made Miki 3 was because I was doodling with an asian character of my own and bosses got wind. I can always use more refs to further her along. :)


lmckenzie ( ) posted Sun, 27 November 2011 at 3:28 PM

"...complained to me that her eyes were modeled-in to be "too asian""

Weird. To me, the whole purpose of having an Asian figure is for her to look Asian. There are other more general purpose figures available if you want a range. I can understand wanting to get the most bang for the buck, but certain things seem to be  better served by a more specialized figure. 

I'm wondering if it would be possible for a single Asian figure to accurately represent the various ethnicities, e.g. Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc.? 

* *

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken


Keith ( ) posted Mon, 28 November 2011 at 10:28 AM · edited Mon, 28 November 2011 at 10:30 AM

Quote - I'm wondering if it would be possible for a single Asian figure to accurately represent the various ethnicities, e.g. Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc.? 

* *

Which Chinese? Han, Hui, Xibe, Manchu, Zhuang, or one of the other 50+ ethnicities? Assuming a single figure could represent them all is similar to asking if a single figure could represent all Caucasians (including some with epicanthic folds).



lmckenzie ( ) posted Tue, 29 November 2011 at 7:49 AM

LOL, I could go with the old trope, 'they all look alike to me,' but obviously there are regional or 'sub-ethnic' variations that might or might not be especially discernible to the untrained Western eye. Whether that's any different from the challenge of making a single mesh be every person, I don't know. I simply wondered if a dedicated 'Asian' mesh would simplify the task of making a reasonably credible range of Asian ethnic types. If we are indeed stuck with needing a specific mesh for each ethnicity and sub-ethnicity, it seems like only one step from needing a custom mesh for each individual - though I'm sure that would make DAZ happy :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken


unrealblue ( ) posted Tue, 29 November 2011 at 11:18 PM

Quote - LOL, I could go with the old trope, 'they all look alike to me,' but obviously there are regional or 'sub-ethnic' variations that might or might not be especially discernible to the untrained Western eye. Whether that's any different from the challenge of making a single mesh be every person, I don't know. I simply wondered if a dedicated 'Asian' mesh would simplify the task of making a reasonably credible range of Asian ethnic types. If we are indeed stuck with needing a specific mesh for each ethnicity and sub-ethnicity, it seems like only one step from needing a custom mesh for each individual - though I'm sure that would make DAZ happy :-)

 

It would be nice if we could easily switch heads on a figure in poser.  Typically, the head does not interfere with the clothing, so the rigging and WM of the body would still work with the existing clothing.  But you could switch heads that are built for highly accurate ethnicities.

I think the variance in body types can reasonably be handled with rigging and morphs on a smaller set of meshes.  The face, though, is where much of the character lives.

This seems to be easily possible with the technology we already have.  Consider, it's the conforming clothing where most people have the massive investment in a figure.  But it's the face where the most variation in characters is.

 

Just thinking outloud...

 


lover3d ( ) posted Wed, 30 November 2011 at 12:16 AM

file_475717.jpg

here you have a bigger picture. Maybe its easier to see now.


infinity10 ( ) posted Wed, 30 November 2011 at 12:49 AM

@lover3d - 

thanks for posting.  

Again, from a front-on view, it's not so easy to notice that the inner corner of the upper eyelid ends in a position infront of the inner corner of the lower eyelid, AND ending lower in level as well.

 

Eternal Hobbyist

 


lover3d ( ) posted Wed, 30 November 2011 at 12:59 AM

I know infintiy but she is from I believe Korea, there are  a dozen different eye shapes in asia. But this is -if you look up close- a good example. You see in the inner corner the uppereyelid somehow grows over the lacrimal into the undereyelid. I will look for more samples:) there are so many.


lover3d ( ) posted Wed, 30 November 2011 at 1:02 AM

file_475718.jpg

very hires eye of 2 different asian females


lover3d ( ) posted Wed, 30 November 2011 at 1:07 AM

file_475719.jpg

More of a Japanese eye shape

 


lover3d ( ) posted Wed, 30 November 2011 at 1:11 AM

file_475720.jpg

More eyelids lol


lover3d ( ) posted Wed, 30 November 2011 at 1:15 AM

file_475721.jpg

...


lover3d ( ) posted Wed, 30 November 2011 at 1:17 AM

file_475722.jpg

...


lmckenzie ( ) posted Wed, 30 November 2011 at 2:27 PM

Thoennes - I agree that head 'figures' sounds like an intriguing idea.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken


Dale B ( ) posted Wed, 30 November 2011 at 3:59 PM

Well.... Dacort was doing geometry switching back with Natalia. It would take care, but wouldn't it be possible to create a null headshape, with shaping morphs for any unique scaling features, then have one of the better Zbrush morphers create specific region specific variations. Once that was set up, any competent morpher could create morphs for the head of their choice, switching between them with a flick of a dial.


MadameX ( ) posted Wed, 30 November 2011 at 7:32 PM

Not to derail the discussion, but with all these images and the explanation of exactly how the epicanthic fold actually looks, I now understand much better. I now see the difference! :D


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