Some babies, regardless of ethinicity, may have the epicanthic fold, so that's another point for accuracy, if required for infant characters.

I apologise for the poor quality of the references.  These are merely references.

In your experience, which figure/morph would you say is most accurate in this regard?

These are helpful references, infinity10.

I do have one question, though.

How is #4 ref. photo, different from #5 photo, excluding the obvious that #4 is a photo of an Asian eye, and #5 is of a Caucasian? They look about the same to me.  

Other than calling the Asian one 'epicanthic' and the Caucasian one, 'deep-set', I don't see a difference.

I'm not trying to be difficult or hard to get along with...they both look the same to me!

Is there an actual, physical difference that isn't apparent here?

@MadameX - yes it is hard to see from the poor quality of the photo samples. Number 4 actually has the inner corner of the lower lid appearing to end behind the inner corner of the upper lid.  That is basically the key point in any depiction of the classical epicanthic fold.

@lmckenzie - I have been looking at some of the Asian characters for Poser sold here at Renderosity, and so far, I cannot really say any particular one accurately represents the case of this topic.  I don't want to point out any specific item.

Allow me a moment to make a collage of the eyes for the out-of-the-box Asian figures made for Poser use. ie, Miki3, Miki2, Izumi of Poser 8, Satoko (by Poserism) and Tuyoko (by Have).  I included the semi-stylised Satoko and Tuyoko, because their eyes are closer to the type discussed in this topic.

The Satoko figure has the closest match for the eye type with epicanthic fold, despite it (or her) being a semi-stylised human figure.

@Richardson -

Koyuki is a good reference, because she has those classic eyes.

Generally speaking, looking at the inner corner of each eye, the upper lid fold protrudes over the lower lid. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the lower inner corner appears to be behind the fold of the upper lid corner.  The latter itself ends below the lower eyelid level, thus giving the impression that the eyes are slanted with lower inner corner and (virtual) higher outer corner.

The challenge for creators of realistic Far Eastern characters, is to make their custom morphs more accurate in depicting such classical epicanthic folds, without making the face appear unnatural or weird.

Thanks. Yes, Satoko does look the closest.

Thank you. This has been of interest to me, also. I lack the finances for high end software such as Z-brush. Is it possible to achieve the correct look from within Poser, such as with the morphing tool? (Or another approach.) Or is that too crude an instrument?

It's interesting that you bring this up. One of the things that made me saddest about the Miki 3 model was that all the beta testers - and I'm pretty sure it was every single one - complained to me that her eyes were modeled-in to be "too asian" and couldn't easily be turned into anything else. I had to do several revisions before we got the final model you all know and even then I got complaints. One of the problems of modeling for a wide range of uses. Looking at the comparisons though, I really should have stuck to my guns because she barely has the eye shape. Maybe if I get called back in for Miki 5 I can do a better job of it. Awesome thread.

Quote - Thank you. This has been of interest to me, also. I lack the finances for high end software such as Z-brush. Is it possible to achieve the correct look from within Poser, such as with the morphing tool? (Or another approach.) Or is that too crude an instrument?

I'm not a fan of our morph brush, I personally feel it is lacking in some aspects and that some of its abilities aren't documented as well as they could be. However, is it possible to get the look using it? I'll say yes but it will probably take a bit longer than in a dedicated sculpting app like Mudbox or ZBrush.

Quote - It's interesting that you bring this up. One of the things that made me saddest about the Miki 3 model was that all the beta testers - and I'm pretty sure it was every single one - complained to me that her eyes were modeled-in to be "too asian" and couldn't easily be turned into anything else. I had to do several revisions before we got the final model you all know and even then I got complaints. One of the problems of modeling for a wide range of uses. Looking at the comparisons though, I really should have stuck to my guns because she barely has the eye shape. Maybe if I get called back in for Miki 5 I can do a better job of it. Awesome thread.

Miki 3 is also a business proposition, so I'm not surprised that authenticity had to make way for sale-ability appeal.  Don't feel too bad about it !

Thanks. I really do appreciate the additional refs, the whole reason we even made Miki 3 was because I was doodling with an asian character of my own and bosses got wind. I can always use more refs to further her along. :)

"...complained to me that her eyes were modeled-in to be "too asian""

Weird. To me, the whole purpose of having an Asian figure is for her to look Asian. There are other more general purpose figures available if you want a range. I can understand wanting to get the most bang for the buck, but certain things seem to be  better served by a more specialized figure. 

I'm wondering if it would be possible for a single Asian figure to accurately represent the various ethnicities, e.g. Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc.? 

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Quote - I'm wondering if it would be possible for a single Asian figure to accurately represent the various ethnicities, e.g. Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc.? 

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Which Chinese? Han, Hui, Xibe, Manchu, Zhuang, or one of the other 50+ ethnicities? Assuming a single figure could represent them all is similar to asking if a single figure could represent all Caucasians (including some with epicanthic folds).

LOL, I could go with the old trope, 'they all look alike to me,' but obviously there are regional or 'sub-ethnic' variations that might or might not be especially discernible to the untrained Western eye. Whether that's any different from the challenge of making a single mesh be every person, I don't know. I simply wondered if a dedicated 'Asian' mesh would simplify the task of making a reasonably credible range of Asian ethnic types. If we are indeed stuck with needing a specific mesh for each ethnicity and sub-ethnicity, it seems like only one step from needing a custom mesh for each individual - though I'm sure that would make DAZ happy :-)

Quote - LOL, I could go with the old trope, 'they all look alike to me,' but obviously there are regional or 'sub-ethnic' variations that might or might not be especially discernible to the untrained Western eye. Whether that's any different from the challenge of making a single mesh be every person, I don't know. I simply wondered if a dedicated 'Asian' mesh would simplify the task of making a reasonably credible range of Asian ethnic types. If we are indeed stuck with needing a specific mesh for each ethnicity and sub-ethnicity, it seems like only one step from needing a custom mesh for each individual - though I'm sure that would make DAZ happy :-)

It would be nice if we could easily switch heads on a figure in poser.  Typically, the head does not interfere with the clothing, so the rigging and WM of the body would still work with the existing clothing.  But you could switch heads that are built for highly accurate ethnicities.

I think the variance in body types can reasonably be handled with rigging and morphs on a smaller set of meshes.  The face, though, is where much of the character lives.

This seems to be easily possible with the technology we already have.  Consider, it's the conforming clothing where most people have the massive investment in a figure.  But it's the face where the most variation in characters is.

Just thinking outloud...

@lover3d - 

thanks for posting.  

Again, from a front-on view, it's not so easy to notice that the inner corner of the upper eyelid ends in a position infront of the inner corner of the lower eyelid, AND ending lower in level as well.

I know infintiy but she is from I believe Korea, there are  a dozen different eye shapes in asia. But this is -if you look up close- a good example. You see in the inner corner the uppereyelid somehow grows over the lacrimal into the undereyelid. I will look for more samples:) there are so many.

Thoennes - I agree that head 'figures' sounds like an intriguing idea.

Well.... Dacort was doing geometry switching back with Natalia. It would take care, but wouldn't it be possible to create a null headshape, with shaping morphs for any unique scaling features, then have one of the better Zbrush morphers create specific region specific variations. Once that was set up, any competent morpher could create morphs for the head of their choice, switching between them with a flick of a dial.

Not to derail the discussion, but with all these images and the explanation of exactly how the epicanthic fold actually looks, I now understand much better. I now see the difference! :D