Well I have taken a quite long hiatus from the 3d world.  Now I will be coming back, full time and I am very lost.

I see Daz has released a new daz studio (64 bit is a nice touch) as well as Genesis figures.

Have these replaced v4 and m4 for most people?  What about Poser?  Would you guys say the majority of the community is still using Poser primarily or have people trended towards Daz Studio now (hard to compete with free I would think).

If there is any informed person who has kept up to date for the last 5 years or so and could give me a little synopsis of what has transpired over the last 2 years that would be super (leaving out forum drama of course, lol).

My main issue is that I do have some purchases to make.  If most people have trended towards Daz then purchasing the newest Poser right away seems sort of unnecessary.  But if most people are still using Poser than purchasing the Genesis figures is the waste.

And what about those Genesis figures.  Do people find them to be far superior to V4 and M4?  

I do morphs and textures for the most part, so I do also have a strong interest in knowing what transfers well and which ones have difficulties.

I realize that in large this is going to be an issue of preference.  So any and all opinions on this subject are greatly welcome.  

Additionally I am sure there are a ton of threads where these issues have been argued in depth, so if anyone can point me to them, I would love to read up myself.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

I think genesis is being used by many right now because they've made ds pro free for the last month (and are doing it for the next month as well.) Actually, they have 3 of thier top of the line software products for free.. grab em.

That said, genesis does not work easily in poser, so most of the poser users aren't even bothering with genesis, and the only store really supporting genesis is daz.

Daz has been talking about a DS plugin to export genesis to poser, But in 3 months we haven't seen any movement there at all, and SM has no plans I've heard of to make genesis compatible with poser at all.

Genesis is pretty nifty, but is also poly light compared with the gen 4 crowd.

A free weight map rigged version of V4 was released a month or so over at RDNA.. grab her as well.

Also, Antonia was released free and also weight mapped, and is an excellent free figure, and can be redistributed for free or commercial use.

Also the hardcopy of either 3D World or 3D Artist has a disk with a free copy of V5. If you have a Barnes & Noble or bookstore that carries them, grab that as well.

Also on there's a tool called Generation X on DAZ that allows you to transfer your V4/M4 morphs over to genesis as well. And there should be shapes for V3,M3,H3,A3 and SP3 showing up shortly.

EDIT: There's also a section for Genesis in the Rendo marketplace as well.

If you have any other questions, I'd take it over to the DAZ studio section of this forum to keep down the fighting. ;)

As a Poser user I can say that I haven't switched and I'm not likely to do so any time soon, free version of DS Pro or not. Nothing I've seen of Genesis has struck me as anything I thought I had to have. Besides, there are a lot of improvements with this last version of Poser, subsurface scattering for more realistic skin, weight mapping (which is what Genesis uses, but is not compatible with Poser's), improved dynamic hair, among other things. As far as I know, DS still doesn't have dynamic hair and the dynamic cloth is still proprietary - meaning you can't import your own meshes. Deal breaker for me ;).

Oh, and welcome back :)

Laurie

Smith Micro just put Poser 9 and Poser Pro on for half price. That ought to break some of the upgrade straglers loose.

Daz Studio may be free, but it's still Daz Studio with all of the short-comings thereof. We've not seen a lot of defections to it, at least not a lot of high profile ones. Very few vendors here at Rendo seem keen on making Genesis content because of the lack of Poser compatability.

V4WM has breathed a lot of life back into V4, and M4WM is on the way. That seems to be where the buzz around here is.

Check what the other vendors here are doing. That'll give you the lay of the land quicker than anything else.

Also there's nothing stopping you from bundling V4 and Genesis in a character pack. Genesis takes the V4 UV by default so you can serve both Poser and DS4 users. There's quite a few of those in the Rendo store now. I believe one character came out today. The bundles do quite well in that aspect. I did create a bundle for M4/Genesis called Santo International, which was a nod to David 3 (Santo means "little saint" in italian)... It has several bodyshapes and younger heads that can be mixed together along with scaling to make him smaller that works in both Poser 7+ and DS. The biggest issue with making it was the M4 clothing support, DS4 has that solved because of smoothing/collision and I use the Morphing Clothes tool by Dimension3D in poser. But I was glad I was able to get that in the store, because it was something that's been sorely missing... since David 4 wasn't made.

I also made a Genesis version of the character as well. Because of dynamic morphs with Genesis, those same body shapes have no issue with the clothing. And you can also customize the bodies as well as the head. Our next character has  little bit of sagging going on on the body and I didn't have to worry about custom fits. ;)

But if you like making morphs, you should really look at genesis.

Genesis is a one-way trip for now. Any investment in it cannot be used in Poser.

Staying with V4,M4 and the older figure leaves you a choice in what program you use.

And I'm still upset that they made every other Gen 4 figure for Poser - except David (the only one I REALLY wanted). sigh

Laurie

These are just subjective impressions, I have no hard data.

Q: [Genesis figures] Have these replaced v4 and m4 for most people?

A: I get the impression most people are still using V4, M4, Antonia, and other figures designed for Poser. As I understand it Genesis is not compatible with Poser.

Q: Would you guys say the majority of the community is still using Poser primarily or have people trended towards Daz Studio now.

A: I get the impression that only a small percentage use D|S. But to be fair, I'm a Poser user, and this is the Poser forum. If I hung out in the D|S forum, perhaps I would get the impression that quite a few were using D|S.

Welcome back!

Since you mention DAZ Studio, the biggest change is that (as others have mentioned) with the latest versions of both programs (Poser 9/Pro2012 & DS4) there has been a divergence. I’ll leave out the Armageddon like brawl that erupted over that ÷) Others can elaborate on the technical details. Suffice it to say that going forward, it seems likely that there may be less content that can easily be used in both programs. If getting a lot of the latest greatest stuff is important to you then the choice may be significant. I think it’s still too early to say which one will be more supported in terms of the latest features. People have strong opinions one way or the other.

Coming back after a long break may give you the luxury of making a more objective choice. Download the free DS4 and try it and do the same with the Poser demo – see if one or the other suits you more. I guess the new Poser sale limits the time frame if you want to get it at a deep discount. Ignoring features and content, one plus in Poser’s favor is that the forums here may provide a greater of information and assistance simply because it’s been around longer and developed a number of very helpful and (occasionally over) enthusiastic users.

from a personal view, i started with DazStudio, and did 99% of my work in that until they brought out DS4, which has a totally alien GUI, plus it is still in a perpetual beta state.

these days i primarily use PoserPro 2012, the render engine is considerably faster, the material room is a lot easier to use ( it has REAL documentation, plus there is plenty of support on the forum here and at rdna for it)

Poser has real IDL (DS can only approximate it with a plug-in( Uberenvironment 2, built in now) ( comparable quality renders would take 2 or 3 times as long to complete in DS)

with Poser you can turn nearly any outfit to dynamic, or easily make your own dynamic cloth to use

DS can only use dynamic cloth made by a third party ( through the Optitex simulation plug-in) atmo, only one 'maker' from Israel who works with a few PA's.

in Poser, SSS is easily applied via either a built-in macro or by a free script (by Snarlygribbly) called EZSkin, with various parameters that can be easily tweaked to taste.

DS has SSS through another plug-in ( Ubersurface) which can easily get broken by a DS4 'update'. no presets available to get a decent skin effect with one click.....

DS4 also installs a Content Management System ( as a Windows Service!!!) that runs ( as default) everytime you boot-up your computer)

Poser has several third party library systems that are excellent for sorting your content as you really want.

Poser has Service Releases that apply bugfixes and updates by incorporating with your Poser install.

with DS you have to download the entire app everytime there is a bugfix etc.

did i mention that Poser still comes with a couple of full manuals, in .pdf format?

DS has no manual, only a bit of online wiki stuff and a few vid tuts on youtube.

Gen 4 ( V4 and M4 etc) still has enormous support in the market.

 DS4 >ignore those who say that you can easily use Gen 4 outfits/hair etc with Genesis/V5.

DS4>the Autofit plug-in barely works ( best on tight fitting stuff, still cannot do shoes/boots very well, at all. destroys all morphs that are in the outfits/hair etc.

DS4 >can be fixed ( to an extent) via the Pro rigging toolset etc. but quite a bit of work entailed ( again, very little diocumentation on how to use the tools)

Poser has good documentation on its Rigging tools, both as .pdf that come with it, and several long ( 45 mins approx) vid tuts available( free)

Quote - from a personal view, i started with DazStudio, and did 99% of my work in that until they brought out DS4, which has a totally alien GUI, plus it is still in a perpetual beta state.

...snip...

 

OP asked questions about Gen4 and Genesis, not about personal vendettas between Poser and DS4. So let's keep it to that.

and why don't you leave it to the mods to decide whether a post is inappropriate or not?

i posted no inflammatory remarks, just well known facts.

in just posted info comparing the 2 apps, as the OP requested.

the OP did not just ask for comparisons between  Gen 4 and Genesis, but an overall comparison.

plus, both apps have changed considerably over 5 years, and documentation is actually needed to follow new GUIs and new tools and their use.

Poser has full documentation, DS does not.

Quote - I realize that in large this is going to be an issue of preference.  So any and all opinions on this subject are greatly welcome.  

Welcome Back!

My personal preference is Poser especially PP12.

I'm so enthousiastic about the sss, the skin looks more realistic, it's soft now.

And also still a big fan of Poser's clothroom, I love making my own dynamic clothes for it.

Quote - the OP did not just ask for comparisons between  Gen 4 and Genesis, but an overall comparison.

Ok but with this in mind:

Quote - If there is any informed person who has kept up to date for the last 5 years or so and could give me a little synopsis of what has transpired over the last 2 years that would be super (leaving out forum drama of course, lol).

But really, there's room to support both like I said earlier.

I believe 3anson is right... it is the job of the FC's to police the threads.

Let's lay off criticizing one another's posts, and provide information to the OP.

Calm DOWN folks...we don't need another shitstorm.

Laurie

edit: Oops...crosspost. basicwiz said it more eloquently..lol.

ROFL... Great minds, LaurieA!

You might be well served to ask questions in Renderosity's DAZ Studio forum (& the forum at daz3d.com) as well as here. Hopefully that is a non-controversial idea :-)

Well, hopefully the DS folks don't have such a knee-jerk reaction to everything ;). I actually didn't find anything wrong with 3anson's post, but...it's all subjective I guess, for a very touchy subject..hehe.

Laurie

First things First! Welcome Back JR!

Quote - If you have any other questions, I'd take it over to the DAZ studio section of this forum to keep down the fighting. ;)

This advice is only neccesary if you plan on switching strictly to DAZ Studio and don't want DS VS Poser arguments to ensue. It's a bit disengenuous and shows where the poster's loyalties lie.

That being said, like Laurie, I have no intentions of switching from Poser to DS just for a figure that won't work properly and easily in both apps.

I only downloaded DS when it became free just to have it in my hoard. I have no intentions of loading it due to the way they programed the Content Manager which handles their version of metadata having to stay memory resident even when DS isn't running. I also refuse to install something that STILL to this day doesn't have a decent manual available!

As to which program is more used? I don't have any data on that any more than any other forumite would, but I did watch what seemed like a flood of DS users abandon DS when version 4 came out. I have no idea whether or not any of them went back when they made it FREE last month.....

Welcome back!!! I was just thinking about you last week for some reason.  I was searching for something and happened on an old thread that you had posted in.

I don't use Daz, and I'm grossly behind in Poser versions.

I'm currently still using Poser 6 because my computer has an onboard graphic card that doesn't have OpenGL, so Poser 2010 is very sluggish to use.

With Poser 9 and Poser 2012, comes IDL (Indirect Lighting), and I'm very impressed with what I see.

So far as Daz vs Poser, I think it's all just a matter of preference. I think Daz is free at the moment.  But I don't think it has the cloth room so you can't do dynamic clothing. And I think Poser's material room is more powerful than Daz (though I could be mistaken).

So whatever program you decide to go with, we're looking forward to seeing what you do with it :)

Welcome back - 5 years!, you may find this a whole new world.

I have stayed with Poser 2012 not through any problem with Daz4 just that there was nothing that caught my interest enough for me to spend the time learing a new program.  Poser Pro version is also 64bit and I guess it is worth going the 64bit route with either program, I am certainly happy with the speed of Pro 2012.

Poser 9/2012 was in the same time frame of Genesis but I was blown away by examples  of Sub Surface Scattering shown a RDNA long before it was released so  I pre-ordered Poser and I have not been disappointed.  I did not get the same feeling over Genesis as I have seen little that excites me enough.  Others are quite taken with it so I am not trying to condem it just stating I have not seen as much evidence that is big a step forward as the new Poser features.

More recently I have spent my time using V4WM from Poser Place which is free.  Using Outfitter from the same source I can convert all of the V4 clothing for use with the weight mapped figure.  This has given V4 a whole new lease of life for me with just the outlay for Poser 2012 which explains why I am having so much fun and have no time to learn another program.

Hope you find your path back to enjoy your 3D time again and I look forward to any renders you produce, DS4 or Poser.

Welcome back, JJ.

In terms of which direction you want to go, a lot depends on which programme you are already most comfortable with and how important or desireable the Genesis figure is.

Easy way to find out: Download DS4 Pro - it is still free! - and have a go. Some people say the interface is intuitive and stable and you don't really need a manual. You might find that to be true. And then, if genesis does float your boat, you'll be happy to know that Daz has all sorts of products for purchase available: 333 at last count. And plugins / plugins / plugins!

Or, you can go with Poser and get EZSkin for free, WM-V4 and Outfitter for free (and take advantage of your current clothing inventory), Pose2Lux for free (if you want to render in Luxrender), a dynamic cloth room (included) and dynamic hair and a material room that isn't in beta (all included) and Antonia-WM for free. And get sub-surface scattering, weight-mapping and a great manual in case you get lost.

Welcome Back!! 

As I recall, you're pretty adept at learning new things and adadpting quickly. With that in mind, why limit yourself. Poser 9/2012 is on 50% off sale, and DS4 Pro is free - Get them both and don't look back.

Poser has some great new features, and DS4 has it's own set of great new features. As you will learn, there are some people who seem to feel that the two programs can no longer co-exist. Others that feel DS4 simply is not usable with the new interface (it took me maybe a half hour to get over the new interface .... others mileage will vary), or that the new content manager is evil (give it a test run to form your own opinion). Many will even say that Genesis is a horrible, low quality figure, and none of the old content works with it (actually, a great deal does work with it, and with DS4 Pro free, the included CCT preserves all of the original morphs). Of course there are others that will say all the old figures are dead, Genesis is the future - the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Again, I would encourage you test drive and form your own opinion. IMHO, Genesis with the proper morph sets is simply awesome, nothing else currently available on the market comapares in versatility. But from what I've seen,  weightmapping and SSS in the new Poser (something that is loooong overdue) is also **very **compelling (hoping to get it while on sale).

As for how many people are using Poser vs DS**, nobody** really knows. Probably the best source of info is the poll being conducted by 3D Universe, which right now has  Poser 9/2012 at 30.4% of all responses, DS4 at 30.38%, Poser 8 or older at 15.65%, and DS3 at 9.21%. With the divide created by the differences in weight mapped technology in Poser 9/2012 and DS4, and DS4's support for Catmull–Clark subdivision, unless the two decide to cooperate soon, figure vendors will be faced with either developing multiple versions of the same product (i.e. Genesis and V4), supporting older products/technology exclusively (V4, etc.), or specializing in one platform. Until things stablize a bit, I think anyone looking to get into content creation really needs to either 1) focus on which of these two programs and new technologies they really feel most comfortable with or 2) learning to develop for both.

I know this probably isn't the answer you were looking for, but the best advice I can give is to take the bit of insight given by the 3D Universe poll, try both applications yourself and see what you like and don't like about them. Then make your decision based on your experiences (remember, DAZ gives a 30 day money back gaurentee, so you can try the Genesis morph paks out, and if you decide you don't like Genesis, ask for your money back). 

Good Luck!!!

Genesis is ONLY usable in her full glory in DS4.

For a content creator, there is no competition actually.

SM has PoserPro2012 on 50% sale, and V4 and the free V4WM are here to stay.

5 Years??? WHAW.....

Welcome back.

/waves Acadia, Gareee, Dustrider - very happy to see familiar people still around :biggrin:

There have been a lot of very informative replies, thanks so much for that.  That is the community spirit that I have missed.

3anson - your post was actually very helpful and hit directly on the type of information I was looking for.

I agree with Laurie, there was no need for a sh*tstorm lol

I really appreciate all the feedback, based on this I think I am going to stay with Poser and Poser based models.  I am more familiar with that and it seems it is still the more popular option.

My goal is primarily to get back into the marketplace so knowing what people are currently using and buying for is great before I make the investments.  

Last question: When people say those programs are half off right now...Is 249.99 half off for Poser 9 ?  and 499.99 half off for poser pro?  

And if I am interested in creating for the marketplace, is Poser 9 still gunna do the trick for me?  - I really really don't want to spend 500 on the program, knowing darn well I probably have another 500 I have to spend in utilities and items anyway.  If so, well I guess it is what it is, but I'm gunna keep my fingers crossed until someone replies to this last part, lol

Quote - Genesis is ONLY usable in her full glory in DS4.

For a content creator, there is no competition actually.

SM has PoserPro2012 on 50% sale, and V4 and the free V4WM are here to stay.

5 Years??? WHAW.....

Welcome back.

The content creators whose posts I've read all pretty much indicate they see a fork in the road. For some, this presents a dilemma. But there's no question they are having to make a choice. Even with the opportunity Daz has offered to all with DS4 Pro being free, it's a content-product maintenance issue. Cross compatibility between apps appears to be limited to products that make use of features both programmes offer.

ETAnswer your questions:

Quote - Last question: When people say those programs are half off right now...Is 249.99 half off for Poser 9 ?  and 499.99 half off for poser pro?

  I'd check to see if there's an upgrade path from your version of Poser.

Quote - And if I am interested in creating for the marketplace, is Poser 9 still gunna do the trick for me?  - I really really don't want to spend 500 on the program, knowing darn well I probably have another 500 I have to spend in utilities and items anyway.  If so, well I guess it is what it is, but I'm gunna keep my fingers crossed until someone replies to this last part, lol

It depends what sort of items you intend to create. PP2012 allows you to create weight-maps for figures. P9 lets you use WMed figures. The rest is all about rendering and using a 64-bit environment and all that. I'd say weight-mapping is the key reason for a potential vendor to consider PP2012. All the SSS stuff and everything else is available in Poser9, AFAIK.

Quote: Last question: When people say those programs are half off right now...Is 249.99 half off for Poser 9 ?  and 499.99 half off for poser pro?  

Nope, cut those in half and you have it.

Here is the link to the "secret" page:

http://my.smithmicro.com/marcom/eblasts/poser/20120303/index-web.html

ps: forgot to mention, I think that for content creation you may need Poser Pro now, don't remember for sure , but now that I've put my foot in my mouth, I'm sure someone with more knowledge will pop in and clearify things.

now there's an avatar I haven't seen in forever! (is it really 5 yrs???? wow)

don't really have much to add but welcome home :)

if you are going to go the Poser route, i heartily recommend the extra for PP2012.

also, grab V4 and M4 asap ( still free atmo) before DAZ3D 'vaults' them, also grab the Morphs ++ and Elite/A4/S4 morph sets asap.

i would not bother with the Reby Sky morph set as it does not really add much in the way of body morphs.

Probably the biggest issue you'll have in learning DS4, is the lack of proper documentation. Yeah, even after all this time, they still don't have a manual, and features still change from version to version, which is every other month.

They don't even really even have complete documentation on the materials anywhere that I even know of.

From a content creator/marketing standpoint, you can develop your items for poser, and they will pretty much work in ds, unless they have busted features.

Working with genesis, you only end up with a DS4 product, halving your potential customer base.

There is a lot of info out there on DS, but much is out of date now, and locating it can really be a challenge.

So I stick with poser based content creation for now.. I don't have the time to spend researching an app that doesn't even have proper documention or instructions.

BTW, netherworks has a great python utility for poser2012 that converts your materials into working ds materials, so converting your poser products to DS is pretty easy.

Just to be fair to everyone, I must warn you. The latest copy of 3D Artist (at the Barnes and Noble in the east coast town where I live) does NOT have a copy of V5 on the CD. It has a copy of a texture for V5 "worth $25" and a code to get a 50% discount off V5 or one of two bundles for V5.

If I had gone only by the information in this forum I would have bought the issue, and I would have been disappointed.

I have seen no Genesis product that impresses me, or that I want for D/S or Poser, including V5. For me V5 at 50% off is 100% too much, especially if I must pay $15 (USD) plus tax to get the discount. There was nothing else in the magazine or on the disc I would have wanted.

Maybe some copies of CD Artist had V5, but not where I live. Check the magazine out carefully before you buy.

lmk

Mr K,

It's 3D World with the V5 disk...

JJ, Welcome back-I must have taken your spot here! 

If you can get the upgrade price, get PP2012, you'll love it.

PS, Check out Poser Place; a lot of creative folks are working on neat open-source stuff there, such as Antonia, V4 weight-mapped, and the Outfitter weight map clothing convertor. M4 and Poser 7 Sydney weight-mapped are in the works...

http://poserplace.phantom3d.net/forums/index.php

This is my opinion based on my experiences.

I was a dedicated longterm DS-only user for years.  DS4 convinced me to make the jump (and the investment) to Poser.  I figured if I was going to be forced (and really, unless I wanted to severely limit my new content aquisition, there really was no choice at all) to learn a completely new program and workflow then I'd go with the program that had adequate documantation, a reasonable update/upgrade path and more useful stock tools.

I do not regret having spent the money and making the switch.  At all.

As for the Gen4/Genesis figure question, I'd be willing to say that Genesis has not and likely will not dominate the market (except for at the Daz store). Its lack of compatibility with programs other than Daz Studio 4 (and serious lack of backward compatibility with previous versions of Studio) truly limit its usefulness to anyone but Daz Studio 4 users.

The majority of the people I associate with don't care for Genesis and I'm really with them in not having any interest in the figure or products made for it.  I personally will not be investing cash or hard drive space on the Genesis figure.  It offers me nothing I want that I don't already have in my current arsenal of humanoid figures. 

Quote - My goal is primarily to get back into the marketplace so knowing what people are currently using and buying for is great before I make the investments.  

Last question: When people say those programs are half off right now...Is 249.99 half off for Poser 9 ?  and 499.99 half off for poser pro?  

Depends on what you're planning on marketing. If you're going to be selling rigged items, Get Poser Pro 2012 because that's where you'll rig and weight map your products. As for those prices, those are the full prices not the current sale prices.

jjroland,

As you can see the question of DS4 or Poser 9/2012 is a very polarizing one!

Just to thru in my 2 cents,

For the sake of honestly let me say, I'm a Poser user since version 3 or before (I forget really) and rarely used anyversion of DS4 but was an early adaptor to both programs when the became available. I TRIED to like DS4 and Genesis, even tried creating some content for it, but I have to admitt it beat me.

As as been said, DS has virtually no written documentation and only sporatic video documentation so I found it very hard to determine where files were being stored during and afterthe creation process.

Both programs will use older content. But both also offer newer weightmapping. If you are interested in this I will say that DAZ's automated conversions to weightmap/Genesis is a bit less complicated than poser's and the content creation tools are a bit "smoother" but somewhat more complicatedbased on the lack of serious documentation. Posers tools arentl as "smooth" but, while the documentation isn;t complete (when has it ever been?) ther is enough of it available to make a good jumping off point. Also Poser's tools feel more familiar, which may be why they seem easier to learn.

If you have been out of the game for 5 years I will say that BOTH programs are substantially different so be prepared for a steeplearning curve, again the lack of documentation would hurt DS in my opinion, but that is up to you.

As for Genesis... As a base figure he/she is ok, certainly prettier out of the box than the Poser internal figures, But you will basically be in the position of buying new character morphs and, as is always the case, clothing conversions (while a slight bit easier in DS) is an iffy proposition, sometimes it works good, other items just don;t look all that great and things like gloves, shoes and hair are pretty much right out as far as I've been able  tell.

Poser has it;s own weight mapped figures Ryan2 and Alyson2. Ugly out of the box and with some mesh problems you won;t find in a Daz figure, BUT Blackhearted has already made a good morph in Anastasia which has been proven to be as much a potential starting point for further work as the Genesis morph Victoria5. There is also a free version of V4 that has been converted to weightmapping and is available for free at several sites along with plug-ins and documentaion for convertin clothing to weigh mapping, and there is the original figure Antonia available in both "classic" and weightmapped versions. Look thru the forums for more info there if you are intereseted.

Finally let me close by saying, I hold no malice for DAZ or DAZ Studio, I may be biased however, so take what I say and filter it thru other's information. At this point in time I am concentrating on Poser, I know a lot of tricks that work in poser, I know very few in DS so I can make better use of it. I do intend to learn DS but I am currently holding out for a (possiblely mythical) set of documentationr it before trying to learn it from basically skratch.

At any rate, welcome back, and welcome to the madhouse!!

WandW:

There are ususally two or three different 3D magazines with several copies of each at Barnes and Nobels. This evening there was just the one copy. Maybe some other folks got there and bought the ones with V5. Seeing I probably would have just archived it anyway, I saved $15. So, more power to them, and I hope they enjoy the figure. :)

Thanks for the info. At the cost of gasoline these days, I won't be looking anywhere else. It would be cheaper for me to buy at full price from DAZ3d.

lmk

Welcome back JJ :o)

Whether you choose Poser or DS, I just want to see you create some nice art.

JV

You say you do morphs and textures mostly.  With that in mind, I would say get both with an eye toward learning/adding DS4pro after getting reestablished with poser.  The reason I say this is simple, if you do excellent texture work you will still have DS folks buying from you.

What you may not realize, and I don't recall anyone else saying, is the Genesis has swappable uv mapping with M4 and V4.  Right now I don't buy M4/V4 characters for the morphs.  But if I see an excellent texture with something eye-catching done to it, like some really exotic make-up, tattoos or just that something that catches my attention, I'll end up buying it because I can still use the texture on Genesis.

And if I really really really want the character, there is all ways the GenerationX transfer utility at DAZ on my wishlist.

Seriously, as much as I see in the potential of Genesis, if you are coming back into the marketplace after such a long absence you should restart yourself with poser.  As so many others have said, DAZ still has the loaded shotgun aimed squarely at their own foot.  And until they start coming up with real documentation that people can use I would not set myself nor restart myself as a DS content provider.

And this is coming from someone who hasn't upgraded poser since P6.  I don't even have P6 loaded on my machine anymore.

Quote - What you may not realize, and I don't recall anyone else saying, is the Genesis has swappable uv mapping with M4 and V4. 

I had mentioned that earlier when I told the OP that you could serve both Poser and DS4 customers by offering both a Genesis and Poser version of your products.

Quote - Seriously, as much as I see in the potential of Genesis, if you are coming back into the marketplace after such a long absence you should restart yourself with poser.  As so many others have said, DAZ still has the loaded shotgun aimed squarely at their own foot.  And until they start coming up with real documentation that people can use I would not set myself nor restart myself as a DS content provider.

As a vendor, I'm going to have to disagree with that. Yes, DS sorely needs documentation, especially on the weightmapping tools, but some interesting things are happening.  There's a bit of Gen4 fatigue going on, where you're not seeing anything new or exciting for the figures... just rehashes of bras and panties, skimpy items and simple dynamic items being sold. Figure textures and figures are looking the same, with the same recycled merchant resources. Even with weightmapping, I seriously doubt any major support because with the script being available to everyone, there's no need to make the effort since the customer can simply do it and they can continue supporting the nonweightmapped version. That's shooting yourself in the foot. You want more people to pay attention to what you're offering? Smith Micro needs to take an active role in promoting content that works within their application; they have a much farther reach and respect than any 3rd party community project will ever have. When they're marking down their software, examples of what you can do with it needs to be front and center so everyone can see.

Our last few products have had been for both Gen4 and Genesis to make sure that both Poser and DS4 users can use our products and that's worked pretty well for us... and that's why I suggested it. From all the heresay and speculation that's went on the forums we were nervous about releasing a V5 item, but interestingly that ended up selling more that almost all of Gen4 items in their introductory period. With our last product (Santo), we separated the product into an M4, Genesis and Bundle, because we there was two much work that went into it to offer it as a single product (body shapes, scaling, hand, foot and toe morphs). But I thought it would be a good way to gauge if what was said about what sells was true (which was bundle, Genesis, and then Gen4).

With the intro period over today, I checked the number and broke it down into percents that you, if you intend on selling characters, may be interested in. We had a shorted intro period and so far it's our best selling product and the breakdown went down as follows:

Genesis 40%

Bundle 33%

M4 27%

I found the breakdown surprising because I figured a higher percent would go for the M4 version for the body morphs and scaling; or at least the bundle so people have both. Maybe because of influx of people grabbing the DS4 that could explain it, as well as now I'm seeing people buying our older genesis items... at full price. So at the very least, if you're trying to jump back in the market, you need be looking things that will set your product apart as well as what's going to move your product forward, because I think that's what starting to happen now.

Thanks again for more of these informative replies - ESPECIALLY the sale link for the Posers lol :)

Just a small clarification - I have actually only been gone for about 2 years, but I had said "If anyone has been around for the last 5 years or so" because I figured those people would be aware of both what was going on before I left as well as what happened while I was away.

I was just going to leave that one, but so many say "Whoa, five years is a long time" lol, felt the need to fix that one.  :)

I really really do appreciate all the advice and opinions.  Makes me very nostalgic for the old community days here.  

Thanks everyone!

Male_M3dia,

First, thank you for dialing back the rhetoric.

Speaking as an individual and not a FC...

Could your figures be due to the fact that you are selling at Daz? I would expect the Genesis version to outsell the M4 version THERE.

I'm wondering how Genesis stuff is selling HERE.

Of course, it will take a Rendo merchant coming forward to answer that question. I do not have a clue as to what the answer is.

In the spirit of full disclosure: I am a Poser user/vendor who sees nothing special about Genesis, and therefore has no plans to support it. Take what I say in that light.

Quote

"There's a bit of Gen4 fatigue going on, where you're not seeing anything new or exciting for the figures... just rehashes of bras and panties, skimpy items and simple dynamic items being sold."

Quote

You might be right but then it might also be most vendors are waiting to see where the land really does lie or learning the new tools of Poser 9/2012 or DS4.  From my scans of the products for sale the hair and character sets for V4 seem as prolific as ever.  I also wait to be convinced that Genisis will be any different in that most support will proably be for V5 and most of that will be a re-hash or a ground up remake of something that already exists for V4.  A difficult time for vendors and even those staying with Poser are tending to include both a Poser 9/2012 version and a Pre-Poser 9 version.

On a very personal note, Genesis may be great to work with (do know, never installed DS4) but I still have not seen anything that excites me enough to want to buy it or anything any vendor has produced that I have said 'I must have that'.  I am still open to be convinced though.

Quote - /waves Acadia, Gareee, Dustrider - very happy to see familiar people still around :biggrin:

There have been a lot of very informative replies, thanks so much for that.  That is the community spirit that I have missed.

3anson - your post was actually very helpful and hit directly on the type of information I was looking for.

I agree with Laurie, there was no need for a sh*tstorm lol

I really appreciate all the feedback, based on this I think I am going to stay with Poser and Poser based models.  I am more familiar with that and it seems it is still the more popular option.

My goal is primarily to get back into the marketplace so knowing what people are currently using and buying for is great before I make the investments.  

Last question: When people say those programs are half off right now...Is 249.99 half off for Poser 9 ?  and 499.99 half off for poser pro?  

And if I am interested in creating for the marketplace, is Poser 9 still gunna do the trick for me?  - I really really don't want to spend 500 on the program, knowing darn well I probably have another 500 I have to spend in utilities and items anyway.  If so, well I guess it is what it is, but I'm gunna keep my fingers crossed until someone replies to this last part, lol

I just upgraded Poser 7 to Poser 2012 for $129.99 in the half off sale. 

If you are going to create content, Poser 2012 is definitely the way to go.  Poser 9 doesn't allow you to create weight mapped items - just use them.

From another post (the half off link):

http://my.smithmicro.com/marcom/eblasts/poser/20120303/index-web.html

Quote - This is my opinion based on my experiences.

I was a dedicated longterm DS-only user for years.  DS4 convinced me to make the jump (and the investment) to Poser.  I figured if I was going to be forced (and really, unless I wanted to severely limit my new content aquisition, there really was no choice at all) to learn a completely new program and workflow then I'd go with the program that had adequate documantation, a reasonable update/upgrade path and more useful stock tools.

I do not regret having spent the money and making the switch.  At all.

As for the Gen4/Genesis figure question, I'd be willing to say that Genesis has not and likely will not dominate the market (except for at the Daz store). Its lack of compatibility with programs other than Daz Studio 4 (and serious lack of backward compatibility with previous versions of Studio) truly limit its usefulness to anyone but Daz Studio 4 users.

The majority of the people I associate with don't care for Genesis and I'm really with them in not having any interest in the figure or products made for it.  I personally will not be investing cash or hard drive space on the Genesis figure.  It offers me nothing I want that I don't already have in my current arsenal of humanoid figures. 

I am in the exact same boat.  Agree 100% with everything in this post.

Quote - > Quote - What you may not realize, and I don't recall anyone else saying, is the Genesis has swappable uv mapping with M4 and V4. 

I had mentioned that earlier when I told the OP that you could serve both Poser and DS4 customers by offering both a Genesis and Poser version of your products.

Quote -

No. your answer is very vague and does not give any impression of UV swapping. It makes it sound more like needing to create and include two separate products into one package.

 

Quote - There's a bit of Gen4 fatigue going on, where you're not seeing anything new or exciting for the figures... just rehashes of bras and panties, skimpy items and simple dynamic items being sold. Figure textures and figures are looking the same, with the same recycled merchant resources.

Your joking right? You have just described the DAZ store.  Pretty much all the stores in these communities for over the 10 years I've been around.

 

Quote - Our last few products have had been for both Gen4 and Genesis to make sure that both Poser and DS4 users can use our products and that's worked pretty well for us... and that's why I suggested it. From all the heresay and speculation that's went on the forums we were nervous about releasing a V5 item, but interestingly that ended up selling more that almost all of Gen4 items in their introductory period. With our last product (Santo), we separated the product into an M4, Genesis and Bundle, because we there was two much work that went into it to offer it as a single product (body shapes, scaling, hand, foot and toe morphs). But I thought it would be a good way to gauge if what was said about what sells was true (which was bundle, Genesis, and then Gen4).

Marketing. That's all there is to it. Sales are dropping not because of gen 4 but because people just don't have the cash flow they used to have and the split in the community. So DAZ needs to push the two app marketing. You can't even use your example to guage because it's being sold at DAZ. Do you really think you would get the same stats selling that product here? I don't think so.

 

Quote - Maybe because of influx of people grabbing the DS4 that could explain it

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

 

To the OP. The best post here was DustyRider. You need to demo both apps and make your own judgement on what you want to do. I use both. Prefer Poser but I like the Genesis figure. That's something I can agree with Male_M3dia. It would benefit you to learn both if you can if you want to do some marketing.

At least your question is easy to answer. Try both apps.

I'm still sitting here starring at the Modo 601 "buy it" button. To click or not to click that is the question.

 

Lets keep this on the right track. Do not start the bickering again.

Thanks guys

Bicker Bicker Bicker...I haven't even approached bicker. I don't have the time or the interest.

I've took off a few years myself! I came back with PoserPro2010-primarily using it to export to Lightwave to render. PoserPro2012 brought me back to Poser for human rendering. The Sub Surface Scattering algorithm is superb-and BagginsBill and SnarlyGribbly have made it VERY easy to use. Look up EZ Skin (free). I've got DS4Pro and have been investigating it. From what I've been able to glean from Daz users- the SSS is much more complicated to use-and few know how to use it well. Nothing against DS- like to see the SSS to catch up in it's implementation. The same with lighting. I can set up indirect image based lighting very quickly in Poser. The only images I've seen on the Daz website that rival PoserPro2012 capability-are done by a second party renderer called Lux Render.

I use V4-weight mapped (this gives much more natural bending than the previous version! Genesis impressed me with it's weightmapping and now V4 has it). You need to convert it yourself-but the tools are free. Follow the link at the bottom of my post.

There are things I like about Genesis-but when it comes down to it-the final render speed and quality keep me using Poser.-just as prior to Pro2012 I used Lightwave to render-not Poser. I see comparable results-through export of DS scenes to Lux Render via Reality 2.1 When properly used results rivaling-and in some cases surpassing what Poser Pro2012 is capable of-are possible. Tricky-but possible- and generally taking 24 hours! However, there is a free Poser to Lux solution available that lets you render Poser scenes in Lux-with the same quality-and dreadful render times.

 People can certainly make nice art with DS- but- Documentation- there is no manual for DS! Documentation is very poor. I really hope they get that together. If I were to conjecture-I'd guess it's that much of DS4 functionality is from 2nd party plug ins.

When it comes down to it. For the basic Poser 4 style render- DS is easy! When it comes to high quality lighting and rendering realistic human skin? More complex-and hamphered by poor documentation. That COULD change.

Quote - from a personal view, i started with DazStudio, and did 99% of my work in that until they brought out DS4, which has a totally alien GUI, plus it is still in a perpetual beta state.

these days i primarily use PoserPro 2012, the render engine is considerably faster, the material room is a lot easier to use ( it has REAL documentation, plus there is plenty of support on the forum here and at rdna for it)

Poser has real IDL (DS can only approximate it with a plug-in( Uberenvironment 2, built in now) ( comparable quality renders would take 2 or 3 times as long to complete in DS)

with Poser you can turn nearly any outfit to dynamic, or easily make your own dynamic cloth to use

DS can only use dynamic cloth made by a third party ( through the Optitex simulation plug-in) atmo, only one 'maker' from Israel who works with a few PA's.

in Poser, SSS is easily applied via either a built-in macro or by a free script (by Snarlygribbly) called EZSkin, with various parameters that can be easily tweaked to taste.

DS has SSS through another plug-in ( Ubersurface) which can easily get broken by a DS4 'update'. no presets available to get a decent skin effect with one click.....

DS4 also installs a Content Management System ( as a Windows Service!!!) that runs ( as default) everytime you boot-up your computer)

Poser has several third party library systems that are excellent for sorting your content as you really want.

Poser has Service Releases that apply bugfixes and updates by incorporating with your Poser install.

with DS you have to download the entire app everytime there is a bugfix etc.

did i mention that Poser still comes with a couple of full manuals, in .pdf format?

DS has no manual, only a bit of online wiki stuff and a few vid tuts on youtube.

Gen 4 ( V4 and M4 etc) still has enormous support in the market.

 DS4 >ignore those who say that you can easily use Gen 4 outfits/hair etc with Genesis/V5.

DS4>the Autofit plug-in barely works ( best on tight fitting stuff, still cannot do shoes/boots very well, at all. destroys all morphs that are in the outfits/hair etc.

DS4 >can be fixed ( to an extent) via the Pro rigging toolset etc. but quite a bit of work entailed ( again, very little diocumentation on how to use the tools)

Poser has good documentation on its Rigging tools, both as .pdf that come with it, and several long ( 45 mins approx) vid tuts available( free)

 

Quote - Bicker Bicker Bicker...I haven't even approached bicker. I don't have the time or the interest.

That was directed at me and I was not bickering just calling BS.

edit to ask why when you quote someone it does not add the quote name?