There's so many true geniuses here using Poser.

It has so many limitaions and so many incredibly brilliant folks have taken the time to think up work arounds to make Poser work better over the years. Mat poses, python scripts, shaders to fake effects, lots more.

Why don't we all just use a high end app?

What keeps you using Poser?

Money?

munnies.

infact poser is the only software I now pay for other than my OS. everything else is either from magazine cover disks, old versions I bought years ago, special offers going for free / almost free and Open Source.

I don't buy any content, I make my own....

You give us all the money to buy the high end apps and we will use them. Lol.

All the best.

LROG

Most of us are doing this as a hobby.
We invest our limited hobby money and our hobby time.

I am sure the Pro's use High end (read as) high dollar apps.

But? Poser is so flexible.
Gives chalenges.
Let us try and experiment.

Want clothes?

I can think of 8 completely different ways to make clothing.
Each has his own workflow, and each has its good and bad points.

We are free.
We can buy, spin some dials and get a result.
Or?
We can make, build, our own content. => See my simple post about how to make a dynamic dress WITHOUT leaving Poser?
I never buy, but allways try to find a KISS way to get a result and build from there.

Poser is all about having FUN with our hobby.

No, it is not without its limitations and a lot of "add ons" are available.
Most tools are perhaps not the best of the best around, but they are all there, and they work.

And the learning curve is managable.
The results can be quite satisfying.

And? Hey, the support here, and open communication, also counts.

As a 3d beginner, the attractions of Poser for me were ease of use and the large amount of free content readily available, some of which is really excellent.

I do intend to move on to a so-called high end app (torn between Maya, Lightwave and C4D) but I still have so much to learn before the move is worthwhile, and even then I envisage Poser as being part of the workflow.

Perhaps we are forgetting the most obvious??

When all is said and done??

It is a dammed good product, managed by a company that cares for its customers.

Poser gives you such great renders...High end aps? Wouldnt know and at this stage of my life really don't want to learn new complicated software...

Money.

Or Money and Morals.

Quote - Perhaps we are forgetting the most obvious??

Whan all is said and done??

It is a dammed good product, managed by a company that cares for its customers.

I like this one. 8-)

I'm poor as the perverbial church mouse. And what I do get, well....I like eating at least once a day :P.

Laurie

like everyone else money is the big prob, any spare cash goes on hardware lol and not to forget poser (an DS) are the only progs to do what they do ~ let you load a pre made doll an clothing etc and produce a decent render WITHOUT all the hoops you have to jump thro' on a high end app

ps LaurieA you seen this one http://bp.io/fugu/   is free ;-)

I do not have high end money :)

I don't have the skill set to get what's in Poser out of it, much less an app that requires me to actually build something from scratch!

Money.

Even then I'd probably still use Poser for some things because it's dead easy to get to grips with.  I still write basic music tracks on Evolution MIDI because it's really easy to use.  The band then ports 'em over to Reason.

I'd need a much bigger and faster system to use anything above P6 anyhow.  High end apps tend to be more memory and processor hungry than Poser, or so I believe, so it'd be out of the question to buy the software to run on my ancient machines.

Time is also a factor.  Since getting Hexagon, I've run it once.  Don't have time to learn anything new at the moment.  Maybe when the kids are older or I can get enough hours in the day, or we get a nanny or something.  :)   When I open Poser and Wings, I know exactly what I'm going to get.

Even if i had the money for hi-end, and even having PP12,

i still spend most of my time in Poser7, after years of practice, I'm just most comfortable with it.  i put the product promos for all my bought content in my folders.   Going to the library is like a cupboard of my favorite things.

If i'd seen the PP12 interface without having learned in Poser 7 first, prolly would've seen a crazy lady on the news run screaming.  lol.

Plus, poser can now be ported to high-end apps like Maya and C4D, for those who feel Poser doesn't provide enough of whatever they need, to be tweeked and whatever else in those aps. Poser serves as an easy starting base to quickly produce a story board, or an idea, without having to fight with the hassles of Maya.

Maya requires you to first build your stick figures, and then rig them, before setting up your storyboard. In poser, they're already there waiting.  

I'm more interested in making my own stuff nowadays but for human figure content, Poser can't really be beaten.  Any of the shortcomings of Poser's human figures are gradually being ironed out with the realistic shaders BB's produced, the new rendering techniques available and the current Weight Mapping trend.  

And as ExistentialDisorder points out, Poser stuff can be exported to other apps if necessary. 

Time and money.

Some of the programs you describe as being "high end" require such tremendous investments of labor and cash that most users simply cannot afford to use them.

My answer to the original question is that I'm not using a high end application because I'm too busy learning one.

I've been trying to master rigging in Maya, working through a series of video tutorials on the subject. I'm typing out notes along the way because the process is so convoluted that there would be virtually no chance of remembering it exactly. If one little thing is out of place, it can screw up everything, and good luck in finding that particular needle in the haystack of the Outliner. My notes are up to 23 pages in MS Word, and I'm only halfway through.

Some hobby. This is like a second job; Not that I'm complaining. I payed good money for this second job. Still, I look forward to returning to the art some day when this journey through the tangled willderness of procedure is over. 

  money has a lot to do with it ,but money 'for me' isn't the major factor, i have invested more than i could really afford in 'high end' apps.... the draw for me is the fact that Poser has a lot of versatility and even more potential... poser is rapidly catching up with the "high end' apps... i think its only a matter of time before Poser surpasses them... the industry as a whole has forced us to look at things from 'their' perspective for many years , such as the standard rule that we have to stay low poly, ask yourself why do we have to stay low on the polygon count? i can understand it in the past when computing technology was in its infancy...but this isn't the past, most off the shelf computers from walmart can handle everything we can throw at them... surpassing even the highest end workstations of the past... i submit to you that the industry as a whole has put itself in a box, developed a mindset that is self limiting, the old masters are resisting change, preferring to stay with proven theory, daring not to step through the doorway to the future...

 i saw this same thing happening with our beloved Poser for a time, but there's been a shift more recently toward taking the next steps... someone has realized that its in the best interest of Poser to step back and let the community lead, to keep an eye on developing trends and develop tools the user needs to make their ideas reality...

we are the community...we are combined intelligence...we make things happen...we are the future!

and this little piggy cried we, we we all the way home....

Quote - ...i saw this same thing happening with our beloved Poser for a time, but there's been a shift more recently toward taking the next steps... someone has realized that its in the best interest of Poser to step back and let the community lead, to keep an eye on developing trends and develop tools the user needs to make their ideas reality...

 

we are the community...we are combined intelligence...we make things happen...we are the future!

and this little piggy cried we, we we all the way home....

 Everybody!  We are the world... we are the children...

Yeah, ok forget it.  :)

You made some good points in your post there.  Not so sure everyone will agree with having high poly stuff just because we can, though.

OTOH, the computing power on your desk may well be equivalent to the power of a Cray in the very near future, the way things are going, so who knows?  Remember when having 64k was a big deal?

Poser is a tool that can produce professional results and even those who have access to high end programs still use it--there are professional examples everywhere--it's the graphic designer's dirty little secret.  If your tool gives you the result you want, why go out and buy a more expensive tool? 

I think the OP's point was, with all the stuff around, why bother with the compromises and workarounds we have to use with Poser?

Anyhow, there's no app yet that doesn't come with a slew of compromises and workarounds. 

Because no high-end app can do what Poser does? I mean, if you want to spend all your time trying to model every figure you render, and have them come out looking a lot worse than any Poser figure (for most of us), then model the clothes, then model all the props, just about any program will do.

People like Poser because all the tedious stuff is pretty much done, and the user can spend his time being creative. Geez, just the thought of modeling a foot would make me give up.

Quote - the old masters are resisting change, preferring to stay with proven theory, daring not to step through the doorway to the future...

The old masters? That would be anyone over 30? ;)

Quote - > Quote - the old masters are resisting change, preferring to stay with proven theory, daring not to step through the doorway to the future...

The old masters? That would be anyone over 30? ;)

  no not an age reference, im 56... referring to those who decide where the industry is going, whether to invest in new R&D or squeeze every Penney out of previous investments...

"Not so sure everyone will agree with having high poly stuff just because we can, though." 

Agreed.

The notion that your low end app will soon rival or surpass the high end should note that  the high end isn't standing still. I'm sure that Poser might someday be able to rival today's CG blockbusters, but Hollywood will have moved on by then. Don't expect Maya to become obsolete anytime soon. Nice pep talk though :-)

Frankly I don't want to model figures--I want to use my creative time in composing a image--not all of us have that talent.  If one wants a great environment in which your Poser figures can live, you can't get better than even the cheaper Vue Complete--hell Hollywood has adopted it for realistic environments even before the price for Inifite went through the roof.  I guess my point is, all of us have different priorities and using a more expensive "advanced" software doesn't necessarily mean that someone will get superior results.  You can give 2 people a pallate and brushes and a canvas and one might create a masterpiece using the materials at hand and one may produce something horrible looking.  All these programs as Sam pointed out have their pluses and minuses.

I guess my point, work-arounds not withstanding, is that the end result is the most important thing rather than the procedure used.

Using high end for making a rendered comic? No way, Poser is great for things like that and offers a lot that the high end apps are missing...... it's called content.

I can model and I at times, fun to do. But using content is easy fast and gives great results as well.

Why am I not using high end apps?

I chose not to pirate.  If I chose, I could be using Zbrush instead of sculptris, Max or Maya instead of Silo, and always have my photoshop up to date with the latest version all for $0.  

Or I could spend several thousand dollars.  Or I could turn a blind eye to where my friend gets all his programs from and accpet the invitation to do some of my work there.

I'm using the programs that are appropriate for the work I want to do and the investment I want to make in it.  

Were I contemplating a higher end program (which I am) it would be something that I could expect to bring a return higher than the investment.  I don't do any 3d for profit, or even for anyone else, it's purely for fun. 

But, I'm considering TurboCad Pro 18, as I'm still in contact with the shop I retired from after I  retired from full time work.  I still get called on to stick my head in on some of the projects they get, and the customers are willing to pay for drawings, should they have any made.  Beyond that, hobby level, hobby cost.  I look at the higher end programs and realize they're not much different from the CAD programs in one respect, the more capability, the longer the learning curve.

D.

For $150 USD from DOSCH I have 30 pre rigged,  native C4D rigs with IK/FK
and catmull/ clark subdivision that allow Low res meshes for posing and animation  then can be subd'ed with one click right before render time.
so we do have option for ready to use humanoids other than poser.

Cheers

besides all legal issues, I'm happy to sell you a Poser licence for $3500 is that turnes it into a high-end app. Or $10.000 (full Houdini licence).

Poser is a dedicated tool, a Virtual Portraying Studio. Like Vue is dedicated to Virtual Landscaping. It's part of a pipeline, like ZBrush or a standalone renderer or After Effects. Poser is not used for studio work, and not used for cinematic work. So what. It has freelance (or hobbyist) artists as its target group.

But why does everyone so simply agree that it's not a high-end tool? I guess it contains more code than the space shuttle.

"I'm happy to sell you a Poser licence for $3500 is that turnes it into a high-end app."

I think that says a lot. Within its area of focus, Poser IS the high end application, since it has a larger feature set and is more mature than DS, which is its only real competition. Donate 3K$ to charity, hack the files and replace "Smith Micro" with "Autodesk," and voila!

Well, I know I'm kidding a bit. But Sketchup Pro costs $500 or so, plus $250 extra to add VRay for Sketchup. VRay for Max costs about $1300 extra.

Don't forget what PPro2012 can do, with Materials Room, Indirect lighting and Cloth Room in skilled hands. And it just took about $100 to upgrade from PPro2010.

I agree completely.

I use Poser until I get my head around that high-end app I've installed and am still learning, which is in this HUGE flux of change and is going to do so much nore and MORE with every new version.

I'm speaking, of course, of Blender.

Time is my "money".

Sorry to bust the bubble, but Blender still isn't considered a high end application. May be one day it will be, but for for now it's still in the same range as those other apps we all love to use, like silo, bryce, poser, hexagon, carrara, groboto and so on.

Sorry to bust the bubble, but Blender still isn't considered a high end application. ........it's still in the same range as those other apps we all love to use, like silo, bryce, poser, hexagon, carrara, groboto and so on.

With this I must disagree.
"silo, bryce, poser, hexagon, carrara, groboto"
Can NOT create Professional  film VFX Such As smoke.Fire, Fluid simulation nor do they have  working in app game engine, or 3D motion tracking nor a professional level character motion retargeting system nor a built in GPU based unbiased render Engine ( Cycles)
or a professional built in node based compositor
just to name a few.

Watch this REEL
and ask yourself if those apps you named have any where near the capabilities shown

Cheers

     Wow.  I thought that Blender was simply a freebie modeler program.  (Guess I don't get out much).

one thing everyone should remember..

the app does not guarantee good work. you can have the most expensive app, the one that's industry standard and got all the awards.... but if you can't use it / have no talent.. it won't do you any better than say a lump of charcoal and a stone wall.

the software just makes it easier to do things and to do things you can't do with ordinary materials. the rest is up to the user. and you don't need to spend thousands at times to get the results.. (would be nice tho!)

Quote - Sorry to bust the bubble, but Blender still isn't considered a high end application. May be one day it will be, but for for now it's still in the same range as those other apps we all love to use, like silo, bryce, poser, hexagon, carrara, groboto and so on.

Yeah, I need to disagree too. Show me another app that does everything Blender does for less than $1000 and I'll show you some swamp land I have for sale.

Laurie

@ Khai - Well said, mate.

@ Laurie and others - I really have to get me head around Blender one day. 

Heh...Blender does fluid, ocean, hair, particle and smoke, and cloth simulations as well as soft and hard body dynamics. You can sculpt in Blender, retopoligize, model, rig, animate, etc, etc. It even has dynamic paint and projection painting. I don't know of any other program under a grand that will do that, much less a free program to boot ;).

edited to add: Cycles is a great render engine. It's still in its infancy but still powerful. Add that to Blenders internal renderer and you have two for the zero price of one :P.

Laurie

And as to the joints of Blender weightmapped Rigs??

just hang on until 1:48 of this Demo

for the free for download Blenrig

Cheers

IMHO Blender is just an high-end application as Linux is. It just isn't a high-paid application. Don't get fooled by so-called proffesional experts who say you have to use 3D-studio or Maya to be taken serious in the CG-world. Read "The hacker ethics and the spirit of the information age" by Pekka Himanen. and you will get entlighted. (Note: there isn't a check for politics, but I can recommend this)

Best regards,

Bopper.

As a hobbyist I've not had time to learn all it's abilities. PoserPro2012 can export scenes-animated even- to LW for render. Up until PoserPro2012 I did all of my rendering in LW. It is still far faster if I want global illumination, Radiosity (a more advanced form of IDL). I have 9.6.1- and I think the SSS in Poser (BB versions) look better than what I muddled through with in LW using maps for dermis, subdermis, and epidermis-which looks like Daz SSS

. It appears that the current version has greatly updated the skin shaders-but I'm unemployed and should not spend the $695 USD to upgrade.

Just before I got Pro2012 I was playing around with modeling again. Here is an example of caustics- something Poser does not have.

Most of the 'high end apps' seem to have a large number of plugins avialable to extend or optimize their functionality. Extensibility is also an important feature. In film production at least,  I don't think I've read about a feature film that used stock Maya for instance - it's always customized to their way of working, and they often create new tools and techniques for each film. In addition to functionality and customization, you're also paying for speed and stability.  You can't be having your s**t crashing in the middle of a production. They also don't rely on a single application. You might have Maya, Max, Vue, RealFlow etc. all used on one production - whatever tool works best for a particular need.  That means your app has to play well with others.

Poser scores better on some of those than others. I think that for many people, it's reached a point where it meets their needs for stills and animation and they really don't need anything 'higher.'

"Up until PoserPro2012 I did all of my rendering in LW. It is still far faster if I want global illumination, Radiosity (a more advanced form of IDL). I have 9.6.1"

I have a seat of  LW9.6 as well along with the External Kray render engine.
I rarely even open it these days but its still a powerful VFX& animation workhorse when you really learn is full capabilities.
I assume you seen the demo videos of Lightwave 11??
amazing!!!
but alas who can afford to keep up anymore.

Cheers

Cheers

Thanks for all the replies.

So, sounds like money is the most popular reason?

I'm spoiled by Poser's ease of use provided by 3rd party content. It's created a comfort zone for me that's hard to wanna give up.