Modo is probably not considered a "high-end app", but even it is a fair bit beyond my capability to purchase it. But it's a bit of a multi-pronged challenge... I could conceivably save up for this in a somewhat reasonable amount of time since I don't purchase content hardly at all anymore since bitten by the dynamic cloth bug: I now just make my own. So, money is only one aspect.

The more significant is this: I've invested in Poser Pro 2012. I've only started getting my head around the materials. I've yet to really explore weight-mapping (though I've been admiring the expert's work in this area).  The only area I'm really going crazy in is dynamic cloth. And Blender. And learning that. I've upgraded Vue Studio to 10... think I've done more than just load the bloody thing? How the heck can I justify a purchase of $1195 when I haven't even learned Blender 2.6+ properly yet? Nor even touched Vue? And Poser? So much still to learn there???

In the past, I bought-bought-bought technology with the idea of learning it ... ... ... ... eventually. So, I ended up with these apps to create apps ... and never created anything because I never had the time to learn Visual FoxPro 3 or Visual Studio (exit-strategy from nursing: all nurses and doctors eventually seek exit strategies). So, I'm still pulling sticky breathing tubes (called laryngeal masks) from people's mouths and spending the rest of their time in recovery explaining to my patients why I don't know what happened during their operation because I was removing sticky breathing tubes from people's mouths. Now, at the ripe old age of almost 60, I've realised that purchasing technology doesn't immediately/magically imbue you with the knowledge on how to use the thing.

Yep, took that long. Now, I'm gonna save money!!

So, what is keeping me from potentially exploring LightWave or modo or any of those mid-range apps (let-alone high-end apps)? Not just the money. You need time to learn the thing. Otherwise, why get it? Oh, yeah, if someone gave me a license  for modo I'd jump on like a deranged slinky: I'd love to play with it! And I would play with it. But the combination of having to save up $1200 just to get something to sort-of get my head around when I already have all this stuff I don't really fully understand or have gotten completely comfortable with just seems wrong.

Just me. Just sayin'...

You don't need to-you've got CD4 to meet your needs. I got Lightwave at LW 6-when I did a sidegrade from StrataStudioPro. I waffled over going with CD4 OR LW at that time.

LW I'll upgrade at some point- not watching the video-don't want to drool over something I can't eat! :-) LW10 has some nice improvements-were I employed I'd probably eat Top Ramen for a while and upgrade now. Then I'd go back to exporting my Poser scenes to render in LW10.

Quote - "Up until PoserPro2012 I did all of my rendering in LW. It is still far faster if I want global illumination, Radiosity (a more advanced form of IDL). I have 9.6.1"

I have a seat of  LW9.6 as well along with the External Kray render engine.
I rarely even open it these days but its still a powerful VFX& animation workhorse when you really learn is full capabilities.
I assume you seen the demo videos of Lightwave 11??
amazing!!!
but alas who can afford to keep up anymore.

Cheers

Cheers

Quote - ...I'd probably eat Top Ramen for a while and upgrade now...

Ummmmmmmm...Ramen!

 Hi Robyn

It took me  long while to understand that simple purchase of a program does not grant magical understanding. I have LW- and I also learned that buying a library of books on using it-does not grant magical knowledge-you have to read and apply the knowledge. I was doing OK until I got stuck on some advanced beginner modeling-without any help-I put it aside. I started up again before Ppro2012 came out- (see the render above)-and was rendering scenes and creating LW materials (node based).

It all went on hold when Pro2012 came out-then I got involved with the WM projects- no time for LW! No time for Zbrush! No time for Vue Infinite. Add ANOTHER program? Not likely

I do have a decent understanding of LW lighting and texturing-but little on modeling-and only moderate animation skills.

PoserPro. The cloth room gives me a headache-getting dynamic cloth to drape properly is not so straightforward. I've got some ObiWan renders where the hood and body of the robe looks good-but one of the arms of the robe splits off M4's arm.

Quote - Now, at the ripe old age of almost 60, I've realised that purchasing technology doesn't immediately/magically imbue you with the knowledge on how to use the thing. Yep, took that long. Now, I'm gonna save money!!

So, what is keeping me from potentially exploring LightWave or modo or any of those mid-range apps (let-alone high-end apps)? Not just the money. You need time to learn the thing. Otherwise, why get it? Oh, yeah, if someone gave me a license  for modo I'd jump on like a deranged slinky: I'd love to play with it! And I would play with it. But the combination of having to save up $1200 just to get something to sort-of get my head around when I already have all this stuff I don't really fully understand or have gotten completely comfortable with just seems wrong.

Just me. Just sayin'...

 Wolf359

WOW. I just checked out LW 11. A HUGE step up! Saving my pennies!

Maybe somewhat along the same line, I just looked at something I've been thinking about for a while for architecture.  One being Turbo FloorPlan from Imsi, made to work with TurboCad.  But, ViaCad has a.obj export, so me little mind say why not try to import from FloorPlan into ViaCad, export and import into Poser. 

Well, you can, but I'm still working on the limitations, that being a small home exported from ViaCad gives two choices, the first is one object, the other is every face is exported separately, all sixteen thousand plus of them. 

But!  I can get it into wings once I export a .obj from Poser, still staring at it, but I think I should be able to cut it apart so the doors will move and the roof can be hidden.

The reason for going into poser is to get it centered and halfway scaled, out of ViaCad, it's huge, far too big to even begin working with it.  Haven't checked, but I'm thinking, from the way it shows up, it might be UVmapped by ViaCad.  That would be nice, not holding breath.

D.

I have to say that I don't think any program really fits the work methods I have always wished for.  I've been at this for a while, so understand that I don't want a "make art button"...  I'd like to have a "make what I am thinking button", but that is an entirely different wish (and one that I'll defend).

I started film making with kit-bashed mecha models using sets scavenged from various toys and spray-painted styrofoam packing frames with Christmas tree lights for illumination.  I always felt a different part of my creativity being used when building the models vs. animating them.  Having to fix a model mid shot would not just cause an animation glitch but would snap me out of whatever mindset I was in at the moment...  So I'd work a few nights a week cobbling some robot together or kitbashing a new weapon or armour piece.  Then on weekends I'd set things up and hopefully shoot a few seconds of mindless robot fights.

When I got into CG it was with the intent of making my own short films with my own environments and designs.  I was planning on using "human" characters, and - screw the purists - never saw the point in modeling and rigging a realistic human figure.  Initially, people were an afterthought for me.  They were there to give other things scale, or to add life to an otherwise purely mechanical image.  I liked the idea of saving a character to a library and the ease with which a number of custom characters could be created and kept at the ready...

What I like, in theory, about Poser is there should be a division between low-level tweaking, rigging, and posing/animating a figure.  People using high end tools in production tend to work on something for a short time and then they move on.  If perfect realism is the goal of a project, you need access to all aspects of your production at all times.  I don't want that.  I want a set of figures realistic enough to be re-useable characters, and if I get them looking right I never want to have to worry about them again.  I think many of us have a similar notion, that someday we will have the figures and settings and accessories of our imagination and then we will be able to start telling our stories.  I don't want to see a figure's joint parameters or weight maps any more than a film director would wish to see an actor's x-ray.

can you say...

a few dozen cds full of content collected over the span of a decade?

can you say...

  shopping at daz, getting new clothes for 2 bucks, the hair i want is on sale, and OH they gave me a voucher, too!

mmm, yeah.  okay, that's money, too.  even replacing ten years worth of freebies.  just... ow.  that would hurt.

it's kinda like the question: macs are so much better than pcs.  why don't you get a mac?

   because of the thousands of dollars worth of windows software i'm sorta married to.  you just can't jump ship like that.

I like Poser :) And there is so much awesome stuff done for our fave figures that I want to use that instead of modeling my own (which I wouldn't be able to anyway :D)

Quote - And as to the joints of Blender weightmapped Rigs??

just hang on until 1:48 of this Demo

Holy sh*t!! :tt1:  What's the catch? 

I tried Blender a few years back, but the interface drove me buggy...

There was a day when I wouldn't have touched Blender with someone elses computer ;). However, since the redesign and adding in the literal plethora of free instruction associate with Blender, I'm liking it a lot. I even managed a whole tutorial and did a fluid simulation. Prior to version 2.5, I couldn't even figure out how to delete the default cube. Unfortunately, I'm not even exaggerating...lol.

Blender still has it's little idiosyncracies, but all in all it's a MUCH improved piece of software.

Laurie

Poser has enough power to get the job done and it's still simple enough to be fun to use.

If i was an industry pro with a degree in 3d modelling and the such then maybe high end apps would be the biscuit, but as a hobbyist, with no training, no desire to make a blockbuster movie, then poser ticks all the buttons for me. And i'm sure there are more than a few people with the high end apps who have never built a model and just import them or download them anyway....oh yes then there's the cost issue :)

Why? Because I'm retired on a fixed income with a disabled wife. I need a little escape every now and then. Poser is somethng I mess around with not something I earn a living with. I'm a hack and don't mind admitting it. It's taken me years to get a handle an this program and even though I have time to dedicate to a new app why should I? There is always something new to learn Poser. The folks here have helped me to no end. They answer my dumb questions and point me in the direction I need with a patience that I have not seen in some of the other "high end" fourms. If you use a "high end" app you are expected to have a "high end" knowledge level. Stupid questions such as I pose to the group at large do not meet with the type of responces that I have seen returned in other fourms dedicated to "high end" CG.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not tarring all users of "high end" apps with the same brush. There are good fourms and bad fourms. There are helpful folks and trolls everywhere but I find the Poser users to be very helpful to the newbies. Their help have turned my renders from quite crude to passibly acceptable. If my only concern was the cost of my toy I would use DAZ. I'm currently trying to get some type of handle on Blender. Again cost is a prime consideration but the community at large and their willingness to help new users was the main consideration in my attempting it.

pdg

You might encounter a bit of elitism on some of the Blender fora, but here's an excellent place to get you started, PDGardener:

http://www.cdschools.org/54223045235521/blank/browse.asp?a=383&bmdrn=2000&bcob=0&c=55205

Easy to read and fantastic for getting the head around Blender.

Hehe, I grew up about 7 miles away from Central Dauphin High School ;)

Laurie

The things that go on in your "back yard", hey? I forget who pointed me to this, but it's really nicely written, engagingly, sort of like "Math Doesn't Suck" by Danica McKellar.

Money, money and money. High end apps just cost too much for us amateurs. I don't think 3D will ever amount to more than a hobby for me and I just can't afford that kind of money for a hobby.

I wonder sometimes, cost seems to be the most common reason given here.  Then I start looking at some of the other things I do and comparing costs.  I have an array of metal and woodworking equipment, machines, and I know setting up from scratch with even fairly good machines is going to cost a lot more than any given piece of software.  My woodworking machines, guessing, but I'd say somewhere around $5000 would buy probably most of what I have, the metalworking, closer to $10000.  When I bought my organ, $7260, and I know I have more than $5000 in my guitars.  Then the kicker, my eyes gone bad.  The woodworking, sharp things going very fast, and my fingers probably too close to fast moving sharp things.  Metal working requires a degree of precision, and I can't read my calipers or micrometers.  Reading even a machinists scale, no, I can't see that either.  The organ is defunct, but it's also 35 years old, probably repairable, but again, I can't see the little fine wires I'd have to work with. 

Maybe the cost is a relative thing, looking at what we put into it  against what we get out of it.  And Poser Pro 2012 suddenly doesn't look that bad in price, even at the full price.  Even there, with the discounts for Poser Pro, I paid more for a large monitor than I did for the program, so I could use the program.  Double standard seems to apply.

D.

well personally... I don't have any money, period.

I'm barely making enough right now to pay my mum and dad for the electric I'm using... the work situation is so bad here atm.

even then.. I can use opensource / cheaper applications anyway for what I want to do...

i think the question here should be: why would most of us use high end apps?  dont get me wrong i use Max and love it for some things , like modeling and simulation, but if i am doing character animation or character based imagery poser is my first choice, with premade/customisable characters and content out the wazoo and relatively simple interface....

i have seen some remarkable work done by people in high end Apps but they arent really geared toward the common folk like me, theyre geared more toward teams of highly trained  professional technicians each specialising in their own field from modeling to lighting engineers to rendering specialists often using multiple high end Apps each doing their part to make the majik happen...i commend those who take the time and have the patience and skills to study and learn these high end Apps ,but for those of us who only want to express ourselves artisticly without having to take years studying how to use these Apps and/or lacking the money to afford these Apps... poser is the logical choice IMHO

:O)

Quote - I wonder sometimes, cost seems to be the most common reason given here.  Then I start looking at some of the other things I do and comparing costs.  I have an array of metal and woodworking equipment, machines, and I know setting up from scratch with even fairly good machines is going to cost a lot more than any given piece of software.  My woodworking machines, guessing, but I'd say somewhere around $5000 would buy probably most of what I have, the metalworking, closer to $10000.  When I bought my organ, $7260, and I know I have more than $5000 in my guitars.  Then the kicker, my eyes gone bad.  The woodworking, sharp things going very fast, and my fingers probably too close to fast moving sharp things.  Metal working requires a degree of precision, and I can't read my calipers or micrometers.  Reading even a machinists scale, no, I can't see that either.  The organ is defunct, but it's also 35 years old, probably repairable, but again, I can't see the little fine wires I'd have to work with. 

Maybe the cost is a relative thing, looking at what we put into it  against what we get out of it.  And Poser Pro 2012 suddenly doesn't look that bad in price, even at the full price.  Even there, with the discounts for Poser Pro, I paid more for a large monitor than I did for the program, so I could use the program.  Double standard seems to apply.

D.

  i feel your pain brother, i have north of 150k in tools and specialised equipment i cant use anymore , some things like my classic/collector cars and trucks, i can still use but cant maintain and are falling into disrepair .... i try to keep them  in storage to protect my investment... software is the only thing i have left that i can use, and the least costly comparatively... getting old sux but its what we do, life is full of little trade offs...

:O)

Quote - ... getting old sux but its what we do, life is full of little trade offs... :O)

I dunno.  My Rock/Metal band has got back together after a 13 year layoff.  I may be an old timer now but I'm rocking my aged ass off. :) 

way to go Sam, enjoy life to the fullest squeeze every drop of sweet nectar out of it  you can...

:O)

Heh, yep.  I became a daddy for the first time at age 50.  Then again at 51.

I think we'll wait a couple of years for the third, though.  :) 

Quote - Heh, yep.  I became a daddy for the first time at age 50.  Then again at 51.

I think we'll wait a couple of years for the third, though.  :) 

DOUBLE congrats... i raised 3 kids and now have 10 grandchildren...

:O)

Munnies mostly, Last time I priced out 3D Smax  here it was $5000, C4D is something like $4000, Modo is near $2000, way to much to spend on a hobby. I'm disabled with severe chronic depression and arthritis, so while I have the time now, I don't have the income. Anyway, for what I do, Poser 2012 is enough. I soaked a small pile on Vue 10 Studio, so that's enough for now. By the time my bank account recovers it'll be time for upgrades.