I paid for V4 back in the day.  It's a business decision, nothing more...

As a hobbist I am always looking for ways to improve my renders and characters but also need to keep an eye on the costs involved in this improvement.  I happly upgraded to Poser 2012 as the improvements seemed well worth the money.  I use V4WM extensively now and have done since she was released and, as there was no cost, it was a no brainer for me.  I can therefore understand the drive to improve and search for the 'perfect" figure/character.

Looking at the Poser gallery here suggests that this is far from being a global aim and many are quite happy with older figures and show little concern for how they bend or the reality of the textures.  In fact the galleries might also imply that such people are by far in the majority.  Nothing wrong in that at all, but I mention it as, for such people, Genesis or even V4WM would be of little interest.  Making predictions on the fortune of any peice of software is often heavily influenced by the personal goals of those making the prediction, again nothing wrong in that but the majority may just carry on using the software in the way they always have and purchase on the basis of their own needs which may be very different to the fortune tellers.

I love mony of the predictions and speculations that appear on a regular basis but do I believe them? Ask me again in a few years.

How many people have read this thread? Almost 600 now. How many are going to pop over to Daz to see what's going on as a result of reading this thread? How many are gonna buy something while they are over there? That's Daz marketing. 

As Martin Landau's character in Ed Wood said "Even bad press is good press".

Quote - Actually I think they have. Think about what you posted. You're a hobbyist and probably don't have a lot of money to spend on content. If you want your content business to thrive, who do you need?  People with money to spend and not trained to expect stuff for free or heavily discounted. How do you do that? Bring in new users to replace the ones not paying then have set prices for item so they see things they want have a set price to them. So then those new customers not only buy new stuff, but then start going through the old stuff to and buy it... even at full price. I know that been happening at my store.

What I've seen a lot in the past are very vocal people that want things, yet have no money to actually pay for those things. It OK to want things from a company as a consumer.... but being a consumer means once those things are available, you pay for them then; not wishlist them for later... that defeats the purpose of demanding a supply of a product. Because if you don't the company will start listening to those who are actually paying and weed out the ones that aren't. If you're doing your shopping at other places instead of theirs, they'll charge for those things that used to be free that people just only ran into the store to get and run out... and start catering to those actually in the store shopping and buying. That's pretty much simple business there.

And ALL of what you just said is Daz's doing! LOL They're the ones that started the freebie train and deep discounts and put prices in the toilet. THEY are the ones that devalued every other vendors product at the time. The fact that they are now trying to reverse that is testament to just how much prices fell into the pit because of them. I remember at the time thinking how I really wished they wouldn't put everything out for free, because I knew what would follow - an entitled customer base that thought that if they got the figure for free, the stuff for it should be dirt cheap or free. That's Daz's fault...lol. Adn the fact that they're moaning about it now falls on deaf ears, really it does.

Laurie

Laurie,

You'll get no argument from me on that. ;) I'm just lucky my 3D work pays for my 3D addiction and part of my freetime activities and my main job pays for everything else... although these last few months of sales have helped me pay for this Europe trip in June.

:biggrin:

Quote - Laurie,

You'll get no argument from me on that. ;) I'm just lucky my 3D work pays for my 3D addiction and part of my freetime activities and my main job pays for everything else... although these last few months of sales have helped me pay for this Europe trip in June.

Heh, I agree. When I was a vendor I bought a lot more than I can justify now that I'm not ;).

Laurie

Quote - Download.com still carries the free content for Daz Studio, and that might still contain the free V3 and M3 figures. 

 

look further.. a coupla weeks ago, the Zip for the Gen3 (M3.v3, a3, etc) was still there....

"And ALL of what you just said is Daz's doing! LOL They're the ones that started the freebie train and deep discounts and put prices in the toilet. THEY are the ones that devalued every other vendors product at the time. The fact that they are now trying to reverse that is testament to just how much prices fell into the pit because of them. I remember at the time thinking how I really wished they wouldn't put everything out for free, because I knew what would follow - an entitled customer base that thought that if they got the figure for free, the stuff for it should be dirt cheap or free. That's Daz's fault...lol. Adn the fact that they're moaning about it now falls on deaf ears, really it does."

Well said!
Daz drove down prices and peoples expectations to unsustainable levels.
 
And alternatively Curious Labs, Efrontier and Smith Micro, et al
Rode the gravy train along the way by focusing on a few new poser
application features while putting forth native poser figures that ranged from lackluster to utterly embarrassing.

Secure in the knowledge that poser buyers would remain comfortably in poser and get their lowcost/free poser compatible content from DAZ

Yeah yeah I know they built "content paradise" but IMHO frankly the overall quality of the stuff over there was often shockingly subpar compared to the DAZ store.

Cheers 

Quote - "And ALL of what you just said is Daz's doing! LOL They're the ones that started the freebie train and deep discounts and put prices in the toilet. THEY are the ones that devalued every other vendors product at the time. The fact that they are now trying to reverse that is testament to just how much prices fell into the pit because of them. I remember at the time thinking how I really wished they wouldn't put everything out for free, because I knew what would follow - an entitled customer base that thought that if they got the figure for free, the stuff for it should be dirt cheap or free. That's Daz's fault...lol. Adn the fact that they're moaning about it now falls on deaf ears, really it does."

Well said!
Daz drove down prices and peoples expectations to unsustainable levels.
 
And alternatively Curious Labs, Efrontier and Smith Micro, et al
Rode the gravy train along the way by focusing on a few new poser
application features while putting forth native poser figures that ranged from lackluster to utterly embarrassing.

Secure in the knowledge that poser buyers would remain comfortably in poser and get their lowcost/free poser compatible content from DAZ

Yeah yeah I know they built "content paradise" but IMHO frankly the overall quality of the stuff over there was often shockingly subpar compared to the DAZ store.

Cheers 

And we had kept it bash free up to now - and here he goes again......

Play nice, children. No personal attacks.

No one has said anything that is not true as far as I can tell.

Daz and Smith Micro are guilty of all charges made against them, as far as I can see. No one is out of line by pointing that out.

Both companies are now in the Endgame of the process that they set in motion. Time alone will tell whether SM steps up to the plate with some WOW figures, or if Daz will survive going their own way.

Let's just keep the discussion where it belongs and not become beligerant.

Quote - "And ALL of what you just said is Daz's doing! LOL They're the ones that started the freebie train and deep discounts and put prices in the toilet. THEY are the ones that devalued every other vendors product at the time. The fact that they are now trying to reverse that is testament to just how much prices fell into the pit because of them. I remember at the time thinking how I really wished they wouldn't put everything out for free, because I knew what would follow - an entitled customer base that thought that if they got the figure for free, the stuff for it should be dirt cheap or free. That's Daz's fault...lol. Adn the fact that they're moaning about it now falls on deaf ears, really it does."

Well said!
Daz drove down prices and peoples expectations to unsustainable levels.
 
And alternatively Curious Labs, Efrontier and Smith Micro, et al
Rode the gravy train along the way by focusing on a few new poser
application features while putting forth native poser figures that ranged from lackluster to utterly embarrassing.

Secure in the knowledge that poser buyers would remain comfortably in poser and get their lowcost/free poser compatible content from DAZ

Yeah yeah I know they built "content paradise" but IMHO frankly the overall quality of the stuff over there was often shockingly subpar compared to the DAZ store.

Cheers 

Can't disagree.

There is a lot of great content at content paradise, I'm sure, but the website UI makes it hellishly difficult to find anything and the promo images never seem large enough.  The impression I get from browsing is that much of the stuff is not very good.  I don't know whether this impression is at all correct or not, (I am no doubt greatly affected by my annoyance at the website itself) but for marketing purposes, perception is [almost] everything. This is one area I think SM would be wise to look into if, indeed, Poser's sales may be affected by the availability of quality content for it in the future.

As for Daz, a reliable, hassle free money back guarantee is a very, very strong marketing tool.

Thanks basicwiz!  I agree with everything you and the sentiments about these companies.  It's pretty darn true.

But, you know, it's also our fault as developers and customers of letting it happen too, concerning figure dominance.  It was the easy route.  It was the safe route.  I'm speaking very generally and not even about myself in recent years.  I made a lot of content for Victoria 3, Aiko 3 and so on.  V4... not so much.

Quote - Thanks basicwiz!  I agree with everything you and the sentiments about these companies.  It's pretty darn true.

But, you know, it's also our fault as developers and customers of letting it happen too, concerning figure dominance.  It was the easy route.  It was the safe route.  I'm speaking very generally and not even about myself in recent years.  I made a lot of content for Victoria 3, Aiko 3 and so on.  V4... not so much.

And it was some of my very favorite V3, A3 and S3 stuff too ;).

And yes, I agree. It is our fault as much as anyone elses. After all, we were the one that eschewed all other figures but the Daz figures...hehe. If I were a better modeler, I'd try and do or start something, but I'm barely a neophyte...lol. Textures for clothes I can do. Simply props and some clothes I can do, but not much else. I wish I were better...lol. Even so, it would have to be an awesome figure indeed that would knock Vicky off her ivory tower :P.

Laurie

Quote - Even so, it would have to be an awesome figure indeed that would knock Vicky off her ivory tower :P. Laurie

I agree. That said, I'm imagining for a moment that Alyson as Anastasia were that awesome figure. What's missing, I think, is that she isn't permanently attached to the front page of the marketplace where she's being sold.

If I were a newbie coming to the market now, I would probably never see her.

Vicky, in all of her incarnations, has never left the front page.  You can't miss her.

I wouldn't expect Renderosity to become the beacon supporting a new Poser figure no matter how great because surely Renderosity is concerned (and rightfully so) with promoting whatever makes money, be that V4, Genesis, or whatever.

This is where I wish SM were willing/able to put a lot of hard work into content selling and marketing in an environment in which every single page, front to back, pointed to and showcased this "new figure" whatever it might be.

Quote - The impression I get from browsing is that much of the stuff is not very good.  I don't know whether this impression is at all correct or not, (I am no doubt greatly affected by my annoyance at the website itself) but for marketing purposes, perception is [almost] everything.

I agree with you. I think part of the problem is they have a lower threshold for entry into their marketplace.

But, as it being a problem, from a perspective / impression then yes it is but it also allows buyers to choose between expensive high quality products and cheaper not so high quality products. Not everyone wants...say a pair of boots at $10.00 when a less quality product can be had, and it works for their use, at $5.00.

Also, Daz is much more stringent on promos where I get the impression that Content Paradise isn't. Heck, Daz has internal people (person?) that does promos for some of their content.

From what I'm aware, SM does not police Content Paradise at all. Not for product, quality, or quality (or lack thereof) of promos ;).

Laurie

Quote - ...That said, I'm imagining for a moment that Alyson as Anastasia were that awesome figure. What's missing, I think, is that she isn't permanently attached to the front page of the marketplace where she's being sold. If I were a newbie coming to the market now, I would probably never see her.

And there's just not the support for her unfortunately. There's really not much for her at the moment and that's not going to encourage anyone to buy her in preference to V4. I think Anastasia's great, but even I'm struggling to find enough use for her :(

Quote - > Quote - ...That said, I'm imagining for a moment that Alyson as Anastasia were that awesome figure. What's missing, I think, is that she isn't permanently attached to the front page of the marketplace where she's being sold. If I were a newbie coming to the market now, I would probably never see her.

 

And there's just not the support for her unfortunately. There's really not much for her at the moment and that's not going to encourage anyone to buy her in preference to V4. I think Anastasia's great, but even I'm struggling to find enough use for her :(

Wardrobe Wizard is your friend.

I have rolled all of V4's content through for her and every other female I have.  40Gb each. 

Ah for the days when one could find something here besides 'help my Poser is broken,' and endless ruminations on real or imagined corporate malfeasance. I think the Poser forum link now directs to Smith Micro Tech Support or the Federal Trade Commission Complaint desk. I hope there are still people out there having fun with this stuff because it seems to have become more like work or some freaky religious cult these days. Maybe that's why so many old familiars are MIA. What was it Yogi said? 'It's so crowded, nobody goes there anymore.'

Sigh, excuse me, I have to go chase the kids off my lawn.

Also, Daz is much more stringent on promos where I get the impression that Content Paradise isn't... Nope. Daz has a house style. Rendo and CP don't and get sellers make their own promos. Also just because a promo is good, doesn't always mean the product will be. Loads of times I've bought stuff where the promos ain't masterpieces, but the product is excellent. Plus how often has this board seen posts from folks asking why, despite what they try, they can never get the item to look it does in the promos? Then again I guess if Daz V SM is akin to Mac V PC, supporters will never see the postives on the other side. They'll always want to slate the opposition. Which I reckon for our stuff is a mistake. Just because it's at one store doesn't automatically mean it's always better. If anything often buying outside gives better quality, choice and value.

Quote - Also, Daz is much more stringent on promos where I get the impression that Content Paradise isn't... Nope. Daz has a house style. Rendo and CP don't and get sellers make their own promos. Also just because a promo is good, doesn't always mean the product will be. Loads of times I've bought stuff where the promos ain't masterpieces, but the product is excellent. Plus how often has this board seen posts from folks asking why, despite what they try, they can never get the item to look it does in the promos? Then again I guess if Daz V SM is akin to Mac V PC, supporters will never see the postives on the other side. They'll always want to slate the opposition. Which I reckon for our stuff is a mistake. Just because it's at one store doesn't automatically mean it's always better. If anything often buying outside gives better quality, choice and value.

Oh, I totally agree with you. Sometimes the product promos don't do the product justice. Also For the past year I've spent more here, Content Paradise, RDNA, and your store. I like choice and I like my money to go further. I don't feel any product I bought was lacking versus what another store had.

One thing I always did find lacking... I've heard that some vendors prefer Daz because they handle product support. I would much rather have the vendor cover that because I find the turn around time on a fix much quicker. I've waited from 1 month to a year and a half for a product to be fixed when I filed with the product support site they have.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - ...That said, I'm imagining for a moment that Alyson as Anastasia were that awesome figure. What's missing, I think, is that she isn't permanently attached to the front page of the marketplace where she's being sold. If I were a newbie coming to the market now, I would probably never see her.

 

And there's just not the support for her unfortunately. There's really not much for her at the moment and that's not going to encourage anyone to buy her in preference to V4. I think Anastasia's great, but even I'm struggling to find enough use for her :(

Wardrobe Wizard is your friend.

I have rolled all of V4's content through for her and every other female I have.  40Gb each. 

But having to convert clothes to fit her isn't going to increase her popularity much, especially with anyone new to Poser. If there was a load of great stuff made for her then people might be encouraged to buy her. I've converted a couple of things with WW, but I don't get along with it nearly so well as CrossDresser. I've not used WW much so far but I'm not terribly pleased with the results. Other thing is if I start using WW I have to buy a load of licences that I already have for XD and I would only use for Ana so not really worth it. :(

Quote - Also, Daz is much more stringent on promos where I get the impression that Content Paradise isn't... Nope. Daz has a house style. Rendo and CP don't and get sellers make their own promos. Also just because a promo is good, doesn't always mean the product will be. Loads of times I've bought stuff where the promos ain't masterpieces, but the product is excellent. Plus how often has this board seen posts from folks asking why, despite what they try, they can never get the item to look it does in the promos? Then again I guess if Daz V SM is akin to Mac V PC, supporters will never see the postives on the other side. They'll always want to slate the opposition. Which I reckon for our stuff is a mistake. Just because it's at one store doesn't automatically mean it's always better. If anything often buying outside gives better quality, choice and value.

If I don't see a product looking good in someone's image (promo, gallery, etc), I'm not likely to buy it unless there's a very good chance I can get my money back.  True enough, I have bought things with outstanding promos that still just didn't work out for me.  But that only makes me even more suspicious of the bad promos.  I mean, if the vendor can't make a product look good, I can hardly expect to do better.

My complaint about Content Paradise, though, isn't the quality of the promos particularly. It's the size and quantity.  They're 400 x 400 pixels, which to me is basically a thumbnail. Moreover, many products seem to have only one or two images.  Together with search filters that are basically broken and scripting that makes using the backbutton a potential incitement to rage, it does not make the site particularly pleasurable to browse.

After buying a lot of stuff from here, RDNA, Daz, and a few creator's sites, I can say I totally agree that no particular store has a monopoly on quality.

If only Smith Micro would let Blackhearted, the Antonia crew and BB get together to make some kick ass native Poser figures featuring every single Poser enhancement and a slew of content to go with them, that would be it; Game Over.

Nice to dream, ain't it? 

Quote - Nope. Daz has a house style. Rendo and CP don't and get sellers make their own promos.

DAZ PAs make their own promos for their products too. Only the DAZ originals have promos made by the DAZ promo artists.

what about these figures??

http://bvh3d.com/cynthia.php

if you want a character to be popular with lots of stuff, then you got to get on the ball and  make something for it.

Quote - If only Smith Micro would let Blackhearted, the Antonia crew and BB get together to make some kick ass native Poser figures featuring every single Poser enhancement and a slew of content to go with them, that would be it; Game Over.

Nice to dream, ain't it? 

Nice indeed Samtherapy... that's a good dream too... and a quick Google for a decent quote to substantiate my consensus here brought forth these beauties:

"Dreams are extremely important. You can't do it unless you imagine it." -- George Lucas

"I don't dream at night, I dream all day; I dream for a living." --Steven Spielberg

 Then lastly, somewhat related:

"A mediocre idea that generates enthusiasm will go further than a great idea that inspires no one."
**--Mary Kay Ash **

Quote -
"A mediocre idea that generates enthusiasm will go further than a great idea that inspires no one."
**--Mary Kay Ash **

And, of all people, Mary Kay would know just how far a mediocre idea can go.

Well, I have neither the time, money or influence to bring about such a collaboration.  I wouldn't even know if any of the parties mentioned would be interested.  I know, for example, Blackhearted is a top notch modeller, BB is the God of Shaders and so on but they may all be happy enough doing what they're doing.

In any event, it seems clear to me that whoever is currently making the human models for Smith Micro ought to give over, or at least learn a bit about human anatomy.  Not just my opinion, either but seems to be the consensus that each and every one of them to escape since Posette has serious shortcomings.  And in many cases, seriously short arms. :) 

Quote -   And in many cases, seriously short arms. :) 

ROFLMAO!!!!

It wouldn't be funny were it not spot on!

Studio 4 Pro is free no more, (I'm glad I stocked up ) and the free version at Download.com is seriously out of date, which affects the availibility of the free Genesis base to Poser users.  I wonder what the 4.1 update will cost?

"If only Smith Micro would let Blackhearted, the Antonia crew and BB get together to make some kick ass native Poser figures featuring every single Poser enhancement and a slew of content to go with them,"

For such an undertaking SM should
$$pay$$ those people you named their full commercial rate under contract.

History (remember Luxpose???), has shown that such "Community projects" have the potential to quickly go down in flames when disagreements erupt amongst the volunteers.  

Cheers

And then there are things like EZskin, V4WM, Outfitter that work to perfection.

DS has had SSS for years, Poser for months, but it is used more in poser because of those community efforts.

Bill

Quote -

"If only Smith Micro would let Blackhearted, the Antonia crew and BB get together to make some kick ass native Poser figures featuring every single Poser enhancement and a slew of content to go with them,"

For such an undertaking SM should
$$pay$$ those people you named their full commercial rate under contract.

History (remember Luxpose???), has shown that such "Community projects" have the potential to quickly go down in flames when disagreements erupt amongst the volunteers.  

Cheers

I completely agree, Wolf.  I wouldn't expect anything less.  I honestly believe a figure made by such talented people and with the full backing of Smith Micro would go a long way to making people see there's more to life than DAZ.  I believe DAZ has thrived for so long in Poserdom because - and let's be perfectly honest here - there's really been no complete credible alternative when it came to human figures.  Every single one of the non DAZ figures has had something or other which prevented it being an across the board success in the way the various Victorias were.  Even V3 and V4 with their many and well documented faults were immensely popular.  SM need to do something to fill the gap now that DAZ isn't playing any more.

One exception to the community project rule you mentioned is Antonia but for various reasons that particular model doesn't seem set to take over from Victoria.  That's not a criticism of the figure, btw, just my opinion on how it seems from here.  I don't see a plethora of Antonia this/that/other everywhere, unlike Victoria.

Quote - Studio 4 Pro is free no more, (I'm glad I stocked up ) and the free version at Download.com is seriously out of date, which affects the availibility of the free Genesis base to Poser users.  I wonder what the 4.1 update will cost?

Not that it's strictly relevant to this thread, but since you've brought it up - we have asked about the non-zero price on DS4Pro and apparently it's an error, they forgot the sale was due to expire last night.

Thanx, Richard.  Hopefully it slipped their minds because they're getting the new site ready...

Smith Micro is first and foremost a software company, not a content provider. Content Paradise is a brokerage like (but not on the same level) as Rendo.

With one key exception. Prior to the Smith Micro buyout of E-Frontier USA, They accepted entire stores. RDNA and Renderosity were linked in at one time. Now you see smaller brokerages like DDU and individual merchants.

I don't see Smith Micro investing all that much into content. Maybe to support the Latest Poser release, but even then we haven't seen as much innovation from them since Poser 7.

Also keep in mind that any innovation in Poser lately have been from the inclusion of Vendors such as Netherworks Studios, LittleFox, Sixus1, Vanishing Point, etc...

I would look to vendors such as those list above (and others) for more innovations. As for Genesis, jury is going to remain out for the time being.

Quote - I don't see Smith Micro investing all that much into content. Maybe to support the Latest Poser release, but even then we haven't seen as much innovation from them since Poser 7....

Check out some of Coop's and Diogenes' recent posts here...

Quote - > Quote - Studio 4 Pro is free no more, (I'm glad I stocked up ) and the free version at Download.com is seriously out of date, which affects the availibility of the free Genesis base to Poser users.  I wonder what the 4.1 update will cost?

Not that it's strictly relevant to this thread, but since you've brought it up - we have asked about the non-zero price on DS4Pro and apparently it's an error, they forgot the sale was due to expire last night.

No, it's still free, for... ever? :rolleyes: :laugh: 

The same "old" banner is in the last DAZ3D newsletter (May 4).

If this is an error... :huh: