I think V4's biggest (or most noticeable) flaw for open mouth is shading rather than geometry. There are some people who have done excellent work on shaders for some pretty convincing teeth, gums, tongues etc. On my computer I have some material room screenshots from stuff Vestmann was doing, in particular. I think he was working from something bagginsbill had started, but IMO took it further.

Quote - I think V4's biggest (or most noticeable) flaw for open mouth is shading rather than geometry. There are some people who have done excellent work on shaders for some pretty convincing teeth, gums, tongues etc. On my computer I have some material room screenshots from stuff Vestmann was doing, in particular. I think he was working from something bagginsbill had started, but IMO took it further.

No doubt you're right. V4 might have perfectly adequate geometry. Shaders make a huge difference.  I do recall seeing a nice thread on the subject over at RDNA.

I think what I'm trying to say is that it's been repeated often enough that the fact that she's hardly ever rendered with an open mouth means you can ignore the geometry when making your own figure.  But I think if V4 textures incorporated excellent inner mouth shaders, you'd see more open mouth renders, which would confirm  the fact that it's not an area that should be ignored (all speculation, of course, though). If that makes sense...

Agreed.

The other thing is morphs. A genuine looking smile involves more than an open mouth with believable teeth, mouth, and gums. It requires a multitude of subtle changes in the skin of the mouth area, movement of the nose, cheeks, eye folds etc etc. If all that changes is the mouth, it will look a bit ridiculous.

Lucas' inner mouth is more complete than most other models that I'm aware of and his teeth are anatomically correct. No chicklets.

I'll work on the low poly proxy idea, but he has a full body suit, so that may suffice what you're getting at.

When giving the poly counts, I forgot to include his yuengling in the count, so he's a bit more than 35K low-res. Closer to 40K - boy's not small by any means. lol. 

And no, I have no connection to Anastasia or any other figures, but I appreciate the comparisons.

~Shane

My bad, could have put that a little better :)

Can't even blame alcohol .... just over-excited. Shae has been made by an artist as a morph of a figure that seems to be generally regarded as not the best that could be achieved, so the prospect of a figure designed by an artist (who from the wips posted looks like having the same level of talent) from scratch .... 

Enough to make a non-artist like me totally incoherent.

Quote - Agreed.

The other thing is morphs. A genuine looking smile involves more than an open mouth with believable teeth, mouth, and gums. It requires a multitude of subtle changes in the skin of the mouth area, movement of the nose, cheeks, eye folds etc etc. If all that changes is the mouth, it will look a bit ridiculous.

That's true.  I'm not sure the expressions for V4 available on the market are a stunning success in this regard.  Is that a failure in her geometry, do you think? (ETA: I don't want to derail the thread with a discussion about V4's flaws, however).

Shane, I'm glad you're paying close attention to his models' faces.  That you are really progressing, given your perfectionism, is truly commendable.  That, in itself, should also reassure vendors.

I like his nose. It's a nice nose to start with ;). I like his ears too. More detail than the Daz figures.

I think I see a shadow on the side of his lip there. Might be nothing ;).

Laurie

I hope you leave the polys in the forehead for frowning morphs.  Not many people yet are that great at displacement maps.

Morphs are quick and easy and can go  in the facial expression poses.

Love esther

PS glad the high rez is going to be weightmapped.  very very excited.

I'd agree with Esther on the forehead...

Displacement is surely not dynamic enough, at least in Poser, to accomplish facial expressions... I don't think?

By the way, I just went and blooming well properly skinted myself buying zbrush, largely inspired by this thread.

Been drooling over it for a while... then I finally went to download a trial last night, for a looksie... and it was no longer available on trial download!

So just bit the bullet and max'd my card. Oh well... in the long term it should be a saving ;-)

Now I've got to try to learn how to use it... hmmm...

...and I bet they now reduce the price. LOL. No really, if they do, I'll cry...

Ooh can't wait to see what you do with it!

Me too... :biggrin:

So far I've managed to make a big dog with a lot of little dogs sticking out of it... and I'm not so sure how that happened :lol:

So don't hold your breath yet... could be a month or four worth of learning curve there for me... and I've only just started to get to grips with modelling in Hexagon

Zbrush might hopefully prove more intuitive for my more traditionally-skilled-up backside though.... I was pretty reasonable at modelling clay, etc, at college.

...oh and anyone in my rough geographic area interested in buying a drumkit...? Think this is what is going to have to retro-fund the purchase  :unsure:

LOL :lol:

Awesome, Monkey. Welcome to the world of Z-brush. You won't regret the purchase. I hope you have a wacom tablet, or an equivalent pen tablet that is pressure-sensitive, cause sculpting with a mouse is like trying to paint with a stick. 

I don't know why they removed the free trial. That's rather retarded on their part. It's always been there for as long as I can remember. Maybe it has something to do with people trying to crack it. I hope it means they're getting close to releasing zb5 tho - which they've promised will be 64-bit, finally. 

I strongly recommend you spend some time viewing all of their tutorial videos. Start from the beginning and work your way through. They're rather short, most of them, but it should get you familiar enough to start getting comfortable. there is a rather steep learning curve, but once you get past that you should be fine.

~Shane

Yes got a wacom bamboo already... I will indeed start to check out those videos first off, for sure... the interface alone is a very different proposition from the majority of other software I reckon... so I don't think I'd get away with my usual approach, of blindly fumbling around the app at high velocity until something sticks :laugh:

theres always Sculptris - a free gateway to zbrush-like functionality.

nothing wrong with sculpting with a mouse.  i do all my sculpting with my mouse -- it gives far more control.  the only thing i use my tablet for is painting, seams, wrinkles, hair, etc - which all usually require pressure sensitivity.

Ah, see that'd never work for me, as I'm left-handed and use a right-handed mouse cause for some reason I've never been able to use a left-handed mouse. So it really is like trying to paint with a stick for me. 

~Shane

I know this is knit pickie, and a very small detail for your male figure, but will there be an Adam's Apple morph? M4 does not have one. He needs one, but doesn't have one. Silly thing to ask I know.

Lucas has an adam's apple. It's not as pronounced at the moment due to the thickness of his neck, but if you look at the images I've posted it's there. The geometry even supports it. Its usually much more pronounced on thin guys.

:)

~Shane

Ah, good! Like I said, sorry to be so picky.

I noticed the adams apple :P

Quote - Ah, good! Like I said, sorry to be so picky.

Not picky. It's actually a very defining male trait, so to leave it out suggests a lack of attenton to detail. Kind'a like superheros in tights with no "bulge" makes them all look like eunuchs and contradicts all the muscle.

~Shane

Yeah, me too... noticed the Adam's apple that is. Nice touch.

I'm a left hander who uses a right handed mouse too... so yeah, limited regards how well I can draw with that.

I guess I must have some degree of ambidexterity, because I also play guitar right handed. It seemed to make more sense, that my fretting hand was the more dexterous hand. By the time I realised the reasons for not doing it that way... it was too late. But actually its more only an issue for more classical styles, I've found... er... off on one, sorry.

Yeah, I just got the bottom-end A5 Bamboo pen tablet. Minimum that still has pressure sensitivity. I actually find the A5 scale of that ample for what is still indirect drawing (i.e. not drawing straight onto a touch display screen).

What would be great for Zbrush / Sculpris I reckon is something that responds in both hands a bit like a lump of malleable clay... but I thing that may be pushing the bounds of interface tech. LOL. Maybe a pair of motion tracking rigged gloves and a kinect might be good for that... somehow ;-)

Quote - What would be great for Zbrush / Sculpris I reckon is something that responds in both hands a bit like a lump of malleable clay... but I thing that may be pushing the bounds of interface tech. LOL. Maybe a pair of motion tracking rigged gloves and a kinect might be good for that... somehow ;-)

That technology already exists. It's been in development for quite a while actually. Good luck affording it tho. lol. I haven't heard the most recent notes on it but yeah, gloves that you can feel the digital clay, a pen that works on an arm that gives your hand real-world resistance, etc. As far as I know it's the kind of tech that only big scale companies currently have tho. But give it some time, I'm sure wacom will come up with an affordable equivalent.

I'd be perfectly happy with a Cintiq, as soon as I can afford one. Right now I just have a very old graphire 4. The rubber grip on the pen turned to sticky goo long ago so I wiped it off, but it still does the job for me. 

~Shane

The adam's apple was one of the first things I noticed. :)

When a male mesh is made off the female mesh it gets left out and what you have basically is a feminine male...lol.

Lucas does not have a feminine face and I like that.

Quote - That technology already exists. It's been in development for quite a while actually. Good luck affording it tho. lol. I haven't heard the most recent notes on it but yeah, gloves that you can feel the digital clay, a pen that works on an arm that gives your hand real-world resistance, etc. As far as I know it's the kind of tech that only big scale companies currently have tho. But give it some time, I'm sure wacom will come up with an affordable equivalent.

I'd be perfectly happy with a Cintiq, as soon as I can afford one. Right now I just have a very old graphire 4. The rubber grip on the pen turned to sticky goo long ago so I wiped it off, but it still does the job for me. 

 ~Shane

There is definitely some cool stuff going on in human device interface design for sure... can't wait for more to filter down... for artistic stuff having manual input (with the hands) is a good way to work I think... and will probably continue to be important...

...but there's also an increasing amount of this sort of thing being developed:

http://www.emotiv.com/

Quote - The adam's apple was one of the first things I noticed. :)

When a male mesh is made off the female mesh it gets left out and what you have basically is a feminine male...lol.

Lucas does not have a feminine face and I like that.

Yes, definitely agree...

...I know biologically we supposedly all start out (sort of) female... hence the nipples and possibly also the various creation myths... apparently

But still, it's good to see Lucas being built as a male, from the ground up...

Re the mouse. Perhaps the solution is a 3D mouse, which is highly configurable as well. Would buy one myself if I could afford it.

Quote - Not picky. It's actually a very defining male trait, so to leave it out suggests a lack of attenton to detail. Kind'a like superheros in tights with no "bulge" makes them all look like eunuchs and contradicts all the muscle.~Shane

??? You have shattered my lofty views that they are all god-like men with nothing but good deeds on their minds...alas.

Quote - > Quote - Not picky. It's actually a very defining male trait, so to leave it out suggests a lack of attenton to detail. Kind'a like superheros in tights with no "bulge" makes them all look like eunuchs and contradicts all the muscle.~Shane

??? You have shattered my lofty views that they are all god-like men with nothing but good deeds on their minds...alas.

Hence the lack of wedding tackle perhaps?

Quote - Hence the lack of wedding tackle perhaps?

Wedding tackle. LOL.

I soo hate that phrase. 

But speaking of such, would it be more appealing to the audience to attach it and use geo swapping, or keep it as a separate conforming piece? 

It would be nice to have the ability to do a poll here. Since that doesn't exist, taking votes on the subject now.

~Shane

He he. Yup... terrible figure of speech, I agree... apologies for that :lol:

I vote for geometry switching... I reckon.

Would that give you the option not only to hide, but also perhaps have different options there... perhaps beyond what mere morphs could do?

You could even have a figure that could switch between male and female parts I guess?

I'm not saying you wouldn't have distinct male and female figures... but I know there is a V4 male and an M4 female FBM, for example. So I guess I'm thinking along those lines...

Cheers

jmo, I rarely (if ever) use genitals. So my vote would be no genitals (default) and geo swap if you want them added.

Quote - jmo, I rarely (if ever) use genitals. So my vote would be no genitals (default) and geo swap if you want them added.

I'm with Dark Edge. I rarely use them either ;).

Laurie

I'm for the geo swap as well. :)

But to me it's better texture-wise if they are attached to the figure rathater than a prop.

I never use them either, and don't know the advantage or disadvantage of either choice, but geo swap sounds cool.

Didn't want to clutter up BB's sketchbook thread with zb chat. He he... so thought I could prompt for some more out of your Lucas one instead, Shane.

Yeah, zb4r4 is awesome eh? Course, I'm still catching up with the previous features :blink:

Reckon another 3-6 months I'll be getting somewhere with it, that I can start to produce the kind of stuff in my head... hopefully. Which is why I thought better get it now and get on with learning it.

So how are things going with Lucas? Any more progress on him to report yet??

Other new figures coming out, like Tate's Michelle, has had me hankering after seeing Lucas and your planned new figures all the more...

Yes, I was wondering the same thing.  I hope he has lots of detail in his features and musculature with tendons etc.

Love esther

So a few new pics for those waiting for updates. Some basic joint rigging here, no jcms or wms yet. This is the 50k mesh. 

Been working on some photo texturing in zb in between rigging work. Still a ways to go but he's getting there. Just thought I'd toss these out for people still waiting to see more.

~Shane

~Shane

~Shane

sorry missed new page post

It's looks plenty fine. I have to say I was wondering if you were ever gonna give us more teases!

Great to have visual confirmation of your progress. He is looking fantastic already. These aren't extreme poses, but still I find it hard to believe he bends so well just with basic rigging.

Thanks. I promise this is just basic rigging. I figured I'd get the full rig as adjusted as possible before I started working with JCMs or WMs. Makes sense that way.

I should also add that I've never rigged a figure for poser before - not a full figure at least - and the last time I really attempted it was messing with the horse in p7, back in 07 or 08. So this is quite the learning experience for me. But if the mesh is layed out well enough, rigging shouldn't be a huge problem. So far most of his mesh works pretty well for that. Kind of having some issues in the wrist but that can be adjusted with JCMs

~Shane

Looking good. I really like the body shape.

I think he looks better than any of the current poser males.

Love esther

I second Esther definitely. He is the best Poser male I have seen to date, I reckon. Nice body shape, proportions, details... and this is before you've got to work on the Joint Control Morphs and Weight Maps!

Great stuff! Great to see some more of his development!

Many thanks Shane :biggrin:

Quote - and this one just gives an idea of his topology. 

 

~Shane

My Runtime folder just leapt out of my screen onto the desk and said just one thing, 'WANT!"  

(^o^) That mesh flow is GORGEOUS!

Thanks for all the compliments.

Sorry updates have been so slow. I'll try to be more consistent with them. I just like to actually have something worth posting as an update.

Still fine-tuning these joints before adding in jcms. Feet are bending better, all the fingers are mostly done.

So far I have two FBMs waiting to be added in, one heavy, one thin but they'll need to be fine-tuned after all the joints are finished. Haven't started on any heroic morphs yet but I will.

I'm hung up on the eyes tho. I can't seem to figure out how to get them to turn without distorting his face.

~Shane

Good looking guy. He can come live in my runtime as soon as he is ready.

A fantastic addition to the Poser community. I can hardly wait to see the finished product.