Has anyone else tried the incredible MK Scripts package available from DAZ yet? Talk about adding to the power of Poser! WOW! My favorite: Camera shake directly in the render. No more post rendering of simulated camera shake in After Effects ... whoo-hoo! Now you can do it with the camera!! -Tim

I got the package, but the only script I've installed so far is the material maker, and that's quite handy. It beats sitting down and editing by hand the file. Just click and let it create it. It's a great time saver.

Yeah, yeah, rub it in. lol! I saw the info for the package and was drooling all over my keyboard, only to find out I can't use it... argh!!!! :-( I guess if I had an idea what the things do more exactly, I might be able to make some AppleScripts...?? Dunno if that's possible at all though - never tried it... Oh hum...

I wanted thatm, but you have to have ppp for it. I double checked to be sure and they told me it required ppp. All I really wanted was the mat file maker...

The MK scripts require the purchase of PPP. No sale on the scripts, and from there, no sale on PPP...

I have developed several multimedia titles and didn't blink and eye at ignoring the Mac community. It's simple math from a sales perspective. I'm amazed anybody makes anything for the Mac to be quite honest. I suspect the Mac user ratio is a little higher in the Poser commmunity than most others (namely because PC users have such a plethora of 3D apps and utilities to choose from whereas Mac users do not.) Companies/people who don't make cool apps like this for the Mac (and there are MANY) couldn't care less about lost Mac sales. It's not worth the time or expense to develop the software for a dying platform which makes up (based on Internet statistics) less than 5% of the personal computer market.

timoteo Actually it is a higher percentage of the market than that. It isn't dying by any stretch of the imagination and while 10 million Mac users might seem like a small amount in percentage about 80-90 percent of them are graphic oriented. A much smaller of the larger PC market is.

Ghost: Sorry, I'm just basing it on web activity, and the percentage of Mac platforms is clearly at 5% or less. It's debatable whether or not it is dying ... to me it certainly is ... it's just a slow, slow painful death. One that would have come sooner had Gates not bailed Jobs out. I really didn't start this thread to begin a PC vs. Mac war ... I REALLY DO feel sorry for people stuck with Macs, and have felt sorry for them for a long time. (The list of software AND hardware unavailable for the Mac is long and crushing.) But mainly I wanted to get other people's reactions to another cool add-on to Poser -- which just happens to join a growing list of PC-only apps.

Size of market is important, I'll grant you that. But don't underestimate the importance of good programming tools and ease of programming. People develop lots of cool stuff for Windows machines because there's so many of them out there, and there are many good compilers, from expensive professional ones to inexpensive ones like Borland, to free stuff like gnu MingW and CygWin (and the free Borland one, too). "Tinkerers" are more likely to be PC owners than Mac owners. People develop lots of cool stuff for the UNIX workstation market (which is even smaller than the Mac market). UNIX workstations (including Linux boxes) are easy to program, and have tons of tools, including good free compilers for just about every computer language known to man. And they're often availiable in colleges for graduate and doctorial research. There's a "trickle down" effect. People port UNIX programs to Windows to get a bigger market. They usually don't port from UNIX to Mac, because porting to Windows is much less work and gets you into a much larger market. The Mac is (in general) living hell to program. Tools are expensive and scares. The debugging enviroment is horrible. There's only one serious, professional quality Mac compiler, and Motorola bought the company that wrote it (supposedly because they were going to shift to the Windows market) to keep the PowerPC from being a development tool orphan. I'm working in wxWindows lately, which gives me Windows and Linux from the same sourcecode, and Mac too, if I can get at a machine with a compiler. If I can produce a Mac version nearly free, it would be worth doing.

And I really want to express my feeling sorry for those people that use PC .. I REALLY DO feel sorry for them. And I don't think it will ever die fully. I for one refuse to use a PC ... They are horrible for me. But it is a shame that people ignore the over 10 million users. Even if that is just a small percentage it is a huge market and most of them are graphic oriented. As for the programming I am not sure of that to be honest. With OX being basically a Unix based operation it might be easier to program for them. And I don't wanna be in a war. Just expressing some frustration at people saying that Mac is dead and no one uses it when a whole lot af people do. And a whole lot of graphic people.

Good point. PC's have always been for "power users" IMHO. Speed and stability (with Win2K at least), easy to modify, and inexpensive. It's a case of "anything you (Mac) can do I (PC) can do better" ... and cheaper! My clients realize this when I send them the invoice ... I'm doing everything (and more) than so-call graphics-superior Mac-based business are doing for a lot less. (I realize other factors contribute to differences in company pricing, but computer cost is a major factor ... especially in low-overhead environment.) Ghost: Amiga users felt the same way. There are some die-hards still out there I suppose, but it is dead. I've used both Macs and PCs extensively and I don't hate Macs ... I just hate it when people assume that Macs are somehow superior to PCs. Is it just because they cost more?? Or do Mac users still think Windows is still in version 3.1? I don't know, but I'll drop it right here because this is an argument no one will ever win.

Nope .. I just try to stick up since I HATE PC's ... And I know about Amiga and knew only one person that felt that way but that was about it. I don't ever bash PC's or assume that Mac's are better. For me Mac's are better. I do hate PC's and won't use them because I end up talking like a sailor and screaming at the screen for some of the things it does but I am not saying that Mac is the end all be all of computers. Just don't like people saying they are dead is all.

And you are right .. it is an arguement no one will win so I will drop it too. Just had to do my defense. It would be llike trying to convince a die hard Ford person to buy a Honda.

One stupid question. If the scripts are written for the Pro Pack and are in Python, why aren't they useable for the Mac? The Python scripts and any Tkinter GUI's should be portable from PC to Mac UNLESS they are pulling in customized PC compiled lib's or dll's or they don't want to handle the differences in the file directory handling. From the description of the scripts I didn't see anything that would prevent these from being implemented on a Mac. That was part of the point of using Python, it's cross platform.

& all those ill-informed developers at NewTek & Alias/Wavefront spent all that time & effort to develope MAC OSX software!

What's this about being stuck with a Mac? :-S I'm the proud owner of a brand new G4. I'm not stuck with it, I was dying to have it! ;-) I don't regret it one bit. It's my 3rd Apple computer (well, 4th if you count the Apple IIe I had in the 80's) -- I've never owned an IBM compatible of any kind. I am also a computer programmer. And I spend all my days working on a PC at the office. I'm not stuck with that computer either, I love working with it. :o) It is possible to use and like both. My Mac is not better than the PC I've got at work, and the PC is not better than the Mac, they're different, that's all. And I must say I'm happy to get to work with the other when I'm tired of one, lol! Both sides (Mac users vs. PC users) can be closed minded and generally are. But either way, I think the important thing is that the computer you use suits your needs. oh... and respect for others likes & beliefs is also important. That goes for both sides, lol! ;-)

Dunno about the scripts, might have to do with the way they're installed or perhaps something with embedded paths... I guess we'd have to see one to know. ;-)

I'm not stuck with windows ME, I'm stuck in windows 98. I'm the type who refuses to upgrade until I'm forced into it. And as I have yet to run into a program that requires the use of ME nor have I seen that ME is in anyway superior to 98 I won't. "If it's not broken, don't fix it!"

About 98/ME ... I recently took the plunge because I was sick and tired of Windows 98 resources issue. I got a new 1.8GHZ system with a GIG of RAM and WINDOWS 2000 as the OS. Forget about ME and go with the rock-solid performance (and a plethera of advantages) that the NT-based Windows 2000 offers. Let me just say ... there is NO GOING BACK. Ask any 98 user who went to 2000. There is simply no comparison ... it's depressing thinking I wasted so much time using Win98 when I could have been using 2000 all along. It has yet to crash after over a month of continuous use (i.e. the power switch has not been touched since final configuration of various components) and I have thrown everything at it including a VERY FINICKY DC30 Video-editing board. The OS is simply amazing. I honestly can not say enough about this OS ... MS has outdone themselves. If XP is even better I'll probably have jimini-fit of joy and croak ... 2K is THAT good. Did I mention I really like Windows 2000?

PS> The GIG o' RAM certainly doesn't hurt things, but feed 98 or ME the same memory and you still have to deal with resources getting low. Resources are non-existent in 2000.

I have a gig of ram , and I never have resource problems. Just for fun once I went nuts and opened PSP, Poser, CorelDraw, POV, Moray, Terragen, and Blender all at once, then did a raytracing- I could'nt even get resources down to half. Your configuration settings have a lot to do with it, too.

From the Buwler-Lytton (You know, the "dark and stormy night" guy whose appallingly bad writing has inspired an annual contest for the worst opening line in a possible fiction piece) results for 2001, the winner for best opening statement in a science fiction story: Winner: Science Fiction Kirk's mind raced as he quickly assessed his situation: the shields were down, the warp drive and impulse engines were dead, life support was failing fast, and the Enterprise was plummeting out of control toward the surface of Epsilon VI and, as Scotty and Spock searched frantically through the manuals trying to find a way to save them all, Kirk vowed, as he stared at the solid blue image filling the main view screen, that never again would he allow a Microsoft operating system to control his ship.

You must have a real inferiority complex, how could you start such an useless thread ?

Ah, grasshopper... there are no useless threads, only useless bobbins.....

It's always interesting to listen to other people prejudices, you learn a lot about your own ones... :-) While I'm tired to death to enter the zillionth my-computer-is-longer-than-your-one-when-erected debate, I'd just like to add one little note from a Mac developer's perspective - I just can't subscribe to the claim that coding for the Mac is such a pain. As a matter of fact, I'm coding it for years with great pleasure, and I even decided to write all of my tools using direct Mac API calls without the slightest assistance of any sort of framework. I did look at frameworks (both Mac and PC) and I found the straight API clearer, easier (and simply more fun to deal with) than anything else. If you feel better if you bash Macs - just do it, call it any name you like, but please don't keep telling it is too difficult to code as a universal law. This might be true for your own point of view, but not necessarily for everybody else. :-) Moving slightly back towards the topic: I spend the last few days trying to get the MKScripts to work on Mac, and I can assure you that the PC-only sticker has nothing to do with money, platform-phobia, percentages or ignorance. The writer of it is very interested to share them with the Mac community if only it would be possible. The reason why it isn't is simply because Poser ProPack for Mac completely and utterly sucks - virtually nothing works as it should, and even the things that do work initially soon start to get unstable after several runs. To be more precice: Many (very) basic Python features simply don't work at all (by throwing tons of internal error messages) or even let Poser crash. Some Poser Python commands don't accept the same kind of input as the PC version, and some commands are simply ignored by Poser. This reduces the (working) features of MKScripts to hardly anything worth bothering, and therefore it will probably stay PC-only for (at least) some time. Rumour has that there will be a SR3 patch - I'll give it another try if anything should be improved by then. Speaking about the scripts - there is nothing in it which should cause any problems on Mac, granted that Poser starts to do what has been written on the cover of the package - so please don't blame the creator of MKScripts for it, it is not his fault. And don't blame a whole computer platform just because one specific program (version) really sucks - there are many PC programs which don't even start up... To end in a slightly lighter and humorous mood, I'd like to quote an olde saying: - Macs are for those who don't want to know why their computer works - Linux is for those who want to know why their computer works - DOS is for those who want to know why their computer doesn't work - Windows is for those who don't want to know why their computer doesn't work

As usual, Martin, you have answered my questions - about MK and PPP. Thanks for sharing your research. I bought the scripts on sale to use in VirtualPC on my Mac, along with CR2Edit and other PC-only utilities, which are easier to run on my Mac than my #$@%!! PC. I couldn't work without PCs, but mostly use them for testing and final delivery. When I really feel sorry for PC owners is when I plug my DV camera into my Mac's Firewire port and wip the video into FinalCutPro for speedly, painless video production. What a joy after digitizing and processing on a PC and Premier. And my brother's $2500 G4 produced a perfect DVD right out of the box - leaving him and his colleagues speechless. And my mom's "cute" iMac is the envy of her retirement community. So none of the gloom and doom talk worries me.

Thanks for the info on why the scripts don't work for Mac. Hopefully Curious Labs will fix that one. It's bad news for me because I wanted to do a bunch of utilities in Python with the idea that both Mac and PC users could use them. Is there a bug list anywhere for what Python stuff doesn't work on the Mac? I've had to code work arounds a few bugs that exist in the PC side (including one that will eat all the memory on any machine in a couple of seconds) so I was wondering if the Mac bugs are true showstoppers or could be worked around. For my two cents in the OS comments, go with Win2K over XP or 98. It's a real operating system and it lets you run dual CPU's. Nothing like having Poser or some other app crunch in the background while you can still have one full CPU to play with.

Funny, I can do the same thing easily with Mac OS X on my Quicksilver dual 800 Mhz processor G4.

True. Point is that OS X, Win2k and some of the Linux/Unix flavors are real OS's as opposed to XP and 98. And they support 2+ CPU's which is really nice.

Ok, Timoteo, so you say that Macintosh are just a 5% of the computer market... compared to what? Oh, yes, with computers with Windows... Mmmm. So, you are comparing the market percentage of one MANUFACTURER (Apple Computer), with the percentage of ALL the other manufacturers who use Windows... And thats the reason why Apple is dying... Interesting... but... why dont you compare the percentage of Apple with the percentage of another manufacturer (IBM, Compaq, HP)? I think this is the RIGHT coparison. One MANUFACTURER with another. So, which is the percentage of IBM in the computer market, and HP, and Compaq?? Youll be surprised. Hey, Timoteo, BTW, did you know which is the market percentage of car manufacturers like Mercedes or BMW? Yes, I was sure you knew it! 5% -only- 5%... I guess they are slowly painfully dying too... :P Arturo

Well, I've been trying to stay out of this as much as possible (guess I should have turned the email notification off) but a few comments just have amazed me, and now Arturo has taken the time to address me personally. BTW, AGAIN (!!) I did NOT start this thread to start a PC v. Mac war -- boy did I pick the wrong title! I started it to find out what other people thought of the MKScripts package. But it does show how extremely sensitive Mac users are to the mere notion that their beloved (and overpriced) systems may very well have quite a few shortcomings compared to a PC. Again, thi You're right their not dying, their DEAD. Their users just don't realize it yet. A lot of people use Yahoo as their main search engine too -- they just don't know any better. Arturo: Your comparison -- acutally both of them -- are completely irrelevant since the main thrust of this debate is how poorly Mac's are supported in the software arena. You need to either compare OS vs. OS or Intel (heck, leave AMD out of it if you want -- or substitute it) with the Mac chipset. Also, as I SAID BEFORE, I don't know what the exact percentage is, but I was basing the 5% on Internet users. Activity logs CLEARLY show Macs are nothing but a flyspeck in all the traffic of the web. This should be a fairly accurate indication of the percentage of Mac users. Now, I know with Macs being so overpriced, perhaps some of the users can't afford Internet acess, but I would imagine their numbers are few. Your Mercedes comparison is ludicrous ... the problem is Mercedes still use the same gasoline as a Ford, Nissan, etc. Manufactures of steel, fiberglass, plastics, etc. still want to sell these items to Mercedes because it doesn't cost them any more to sell them to Mercedes than it does Nissan. However, in the computer world, more and more software manufactures are realizing it's just not worth it to develop and manufacture software for the Mac platform. If I had a dollar for every complaint or wailing from Mac users who wanted to know "Why isn't game X coming out for the Mac??" I'd be a very rich man. I'm not trying to win a PC is better than Mac debate (because it's impossible -- either way -- since people have their own tastes and own habits, etc.) but it is a simple fact that there is a PLETHORA of software which is not available for the Mac and that LONG LIST is growing in leaps and bounds. The notion that Macs are somehow better at Graphics is a mute point now ... I think that only die-hard Mac users still live under this dillusion -- as is the "ease of use" dillusion. These two facts: A) Software is increasingly less likely to show up on the Mac Platform and B) There are no clear advantages to owning a Mac unless you already use Macs and are accustomed to them, spells out a very dismal forcast for Apple: ZERO GROWTH. Companies who do not grow in these economic times do not survive. It's amazing they've lasted this long and is a tribute to their management abilities. NOW, does ANYONE have any comments about MKSCRIPTS?!? DANG-IT!

I don't even really know what an MK Script is- I'd like to though. If you (as an apparently knowledgeable scripter) could bung up a real basic little tutorial for the site, many of us wanna-knows would be grateful!

Go to DAZ and check out their new releases. Then click on the MKScripts product (it a group of VERY powerful Python scripts for use in the Poser Pro Pack, and they are very easy to use BTW). There is a VERY detailed description of the package there. -Tim

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=395826

THANKS! -Tim

Tim, dont you realize that if I had a dollar too for every PC user who says "Apple is dead" Id have more money than Billy Gates...? :D Arturo

willf wrote "& all those ill-informed developers at NewTek & Alias/Wavefront spent all that time & effort to develope MAC OSX software!" Exactly the point, they're developing OS-X software. OS-X is UNIX, with a Mac shell on top. It's nothing like MacOS 9, 8, 7, 6, etc. OS-X provides real OS services: preemptive multitasking, protected memory, ad half way decent interprocess communication. OS-X makes it possible to write an enormous application like Maya, PhotoShop, or Naturally Speaking, without having to build an operating system into your program because the one on the computer isn't adaquate. OS-X is also 12 years late (as of last count). Yup, that's when I attended my first Apple presentation about it, 1989. It was supposed to be in beta in a few months. Not the next millenium.

In POSER 5 -- I HOPE!!! Bryce has a nice Render engine as we all know, but even with the two new apps (AGAIN, PC ONLY by the way!) that allow you to import poser animations into Bryce, it is still a pain. The simple answer is of course for Poser to get a better Render engine.

A new render engine should Be priority ONE!! at Curious Labs. No offense to Konan and other" Poser to Bryce"Cottage industrialist, but why should serious 3D artists and animators ( MAC or PC) support this program(Poser) if it will always require the purchase of 2 other Apps to get a animation or still render that is not laughable without major post work. and as far as i can tell "poser 5" does not even have a launch date. oh well ,i cant complain I am running Maxon CInema 4DXl 7.1, an ultra stable 3D full featured application with a radiosity render engine ON an ultra stable Modern operating system ( Mac OSX) there are so many talented Poser artists out there I hope curious comes through for you guys someday. until then you have my sympathies.

Those with trouble with automation and this Applescript which Ive never used, have you tried QuicKeys? Its at CE Software, for all automation, stop there. Ask then if you need MK scripts. To timoteo, so it seems you now have a new convenience feature which makes life a bit easier and theres less fing around. Well... Good. Because dont feel sorry for Mac users, with this new trick you now know what its like to BE one, if only for five minutes. Multiply your output, fly round the desktop and through the system, worry more about what you DO with the computer than have it be and end in itself, all this with a portion of the available software since (as it turns out) you wouldnt need any of that other junk anyway. Well done, enjoy your new toy and welcome to the 21st century, where Apple is probably the only commercially solvent computer company. The happiest people I know are former ultra-conservative IBM Wintin-heads whove just converted to the Mac. (Actually it looked like Wintel were about to go under a few years ago. I follow these things, I know the signs) Naa... To hell with all this... IBM IS STUPID AN MACINTOSH ISNT.

MartinC, your development experiences and mine differ greatly. What sort of stuff do you write? There was a time (when I first got into Mac development) that the Mac looked like it would be the most lucerative market to develop speech recognition software for. The Mac had a better processor (for speech recognition, anyway). It had built in, high quality sound, when PC's had to screw around with installing things like SoundBlasters that were aimed more at gamers than at people who needed good audio quality. And it's market share was higher than it is today. But the OS just wouldn't support that kind of application complexity. That wasn't just my experience, it was also Apples, IBM's, and Dragon's. The Apple speech recognition development effort was incredible. Headed up by some of the hardest hitters in the business, cream-of-the-crop talent like Kai-Fu Lee and Steve Austin, skimmed from sites like CMU, MIT, BBN, IBM, AT&T. There should have been no limits to what that team could accomplish. But there was. First, they tried to move directly from UNIX to Mac. Then, they tried to use a "stepping stone", moving from NeXT to Mac. Then they gave up, and concluded it was impossible to do without Taligent, Pink, FutureOS, or any of the other names OS-X has had over the last 12 years. Remember, when you look at the size of target markets, "PC" usually means "PC with Windows 95/98/ME" and "Mac" means "Mac with MacOS 9". But the "PC" that made the Maya and 3DStudio folk see big $$$ was a much smaller market, the "PC with NT or Win2k" market. Far smaller than the installed Mac user base. Less graphics oriented. But that's what it took to run serious apps. Often, for smaller graphics houses, their first taste of NT came when it was time to install that brand new copy of Max. There were efforts to port those applications to MacOS 8 and 9. Costly, embarassing failures. Here's a thought for you. Poser itself was developed on the Mac, then ported for the PC. So, you'd expect Poser (and, the ProPack) to be more stable and better performing on the Mac than on the PC. So, why could it be possible that "Poser ProPack for Mac completely and utterly sucks"? What went wrong to cause this? If I were a betting man, I'd have money on programming difficulty as at least a partial cause.

xvcoffee, just think where Apple could be today if they had spent their money a few years ago on the engine (OS-X) instead of the paint (Cube) and been able to take over the 3D market from PC's and UNIX workstations years ago. And IBM is the best Mac programmers in the whole world. They made speech recognition work on the Mac when Apple themselves couldn't. So watch who you call stupid. (Oh god, I'm defending IBM. This day sucks).

Wow Wiz, thanks for the history lesson. Very interesting, thanks. Now, is it just me or was most of XV's comments addressed to me incomprehensible? My apologies in advance if this is simply a language barrier problem. -Tim

Okay, XV ... now I see what you're insinuating. Yea Macs, lead the way into the 21st century with ONE mouse button and 15" displays! I was a Mission Support Specialist from 1994-1998 at NASA (Goddard Space Flight Center) and my job was basically computer and network guru. I used both PCs and Macs EXTENSIVLEY. After that I did contract work as a computer consultant in which I ended up using Macs most of the time. I'm not saying all things are bad about Macs ... not at all ... but the notion that Macs somehow have better software and are just a better, more advanced user-friendly system is absolutely absurd. The functionaity of a Windows PC is lightyears ahead Mac. Let's talk about ease of use/productivity ... it's the main reason I choose PC over Mac. I can run circles around Mac users because of the downright STUPID implementations Apple has (LIKE A SINGLE MOUSE BUTTON ... what a joke!!) or lack of shortcuts ... like MINIZIME ALL WINDOWS as just ONE of DOZENS of examples. The overall ease of controlling windows/items in Windows in vastly superior to that of a Mac. After using a Windows based machine Mac's feel cumbersome and are incredibly frustrating to use. Quite the opposite of the misnomer proliferated by Mac commercials and Mac users. Also, "Think Different" ... should be "Think Bassakwards" Also, I'm not aware of ANY good software that is available for the Mac that isn't available for the PC. Now for the converse, I could present you with a LONG LIST. Can we say MIMIC? The list of games is equally, if not more, endless. Now that I have multimedia and video-post production company, I'm amazed at the incredulity of Mac users who just can't believe I only work with PCs. Like it must be impossible to use After Effects and do ANY kind of graphics on a PC. I just tell them, yeah ... I can do everything a Mac can ... and more. I can do it FASTER, and do it a LOT CHEAPER. Some of them do (thankfully) see the light when I present them with the bill and the excellent work.

I almost forgot ... Then there is the whole proprietary nature of Macs ... uggghhh. Anyone who is a true power user knows what I'm talking about. I like tweaking two things ... my 86' Grand National (11.42 1/4 mile -- which, BTW, is tweaked by two awesome pieces of software on my laptop, which OF COURSE will NOT run on a Mac -- go figure) and my PCs. Macs are quite the enemy of anyone seriously interested in freedom of choice and the ability to seriously tweak a system. Again, I don't hate Macs ... I just hate it when people assume that Macs are somehow superior to PCs in most or every way. -Tim

timoteo1 wrote: "Also, I'm not aware of ANY good software that is available for the Mac that isn't available for the PC. Now for the converse, I could present you with a LONG LIST. Can we say MIMIC?" Mimic is a speech recognition application. Not the Mac's forte. I think we already covered that ;) "The list of games is equally, if not more, endless." That may improve soon. Apple adopted OpenGL last year, even in OS 9, so games software development is more practical on the Mac than it was before. And there are Mac versions of the nVidia and ATI 3D accelerators... Yeah, once Apple stopped "thinking differently" and adopted the PC's bus, the PC's cards, and a UNIX kernel operating system, the future of the Mac started looking much brighter. Ciao! Joe

Attached Link: http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,46530,00.html

Tim, I think that language barrier problem might be called Forward Incompatibility, (but I make joke). All problems with mac refer to Jobs@apple.com (I THINK that email address exists), he knows the people who do the tweaking since the rest of us worry about what we do with a computer and as for that mighty Cube, its exactly the sort of thing that got them into trouble in the first place, unnecessary junk. I couldnt believe it, upgradable processors, PCI expansion slots, no wonder it was white all it needed was a trunk to sweep from to too fro and some big ears. You get the computer that does the best job, just like you take care what part of a reply to take seriously. All computer manufacturers are in their business to make money, Mac included, which is probably why they didnt spend much money on Copeland, or Gershwin, or Rhapsody. Ive just found about ten more things that Quickeys does and would now double recommend the stuff. www.cesoft.com (I think I can figure what Tim's tweaking software does, but Ill try to do better) Cheers xvcoffee Ps Mi Mi

Oh cool! I know that the Mac isn't dead (I'll bet the Poser comuunity is 25% - 30% Mac). But I thought that the religious flame wars between PC and Mac were dead-- but we've now proven they are alive and kicking A! - JimX

The flame wars persist only when misguided people bring them up in the first place, like the first post on this thread.